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[Olympia5776]

Picked up my new car on Friday after a seven month wait .
Salesman was almost orgasmic showing me the "infotronics " which frankly induced glazed vision and thoughts of what was for tea when I got home . 
Anyway after identifying the lights , wipers and seat adjustment I set off for home .
A couple of peculiar things occurred on route , one of which was AEC Matador type steering and a bright red flashing warning for  " lane assist " which twiched my sphincter more than a little .
So over the weekend I sat down to go through the owners manual .
I opened the case containing it to find an inch and a quarter thick book , all in English !
I turned my attention to the heating and ventilation chapter to be confronted with THREE pages of intro warnings and important notices before it led you into the maze of touch screen tedium ....and have I said that I detest touch screens in cars .
The dash chapter shows me all of the 83 indication/warning icons that tell me what's going on , all of which require me to switch to reading glasses mode before I can identify what is going to break first .
The technology is clearly aimed at the technological elite of todays world yet the intro feature identification page has a big arrow pointing to and identifying ,the headlight .
In the 8 years between our little & loved Yeti and this the equipment content has went batshit crazy .
80% of it will never be used .

[STEMO]

It's not only unnecessary, it's dangerous. Even wifey's humble grandland had wondering why it was 'bonging' at me when I went to fill it up the other day. When I explained where I was and what I was doing she informed me I was probably too close to the car in front for the speed I was doing. What??
I told her I turned the heating on but could only see buttons for front and rear screen defrost, nothing to point the heat into the cabin. She said there wasn't a button for that, I had to go into the touch screen menu. What??
She asked if I remembered to turn off lane assist and stop start before I set off. I told her to fill the fickin thing up herself.

The Daily Mail's motoring correspondent wrote an article a while back saying he had just driven a new model (I forget) and it had buttons! He loved it.

[Doctor Gollum]

Legislated nannying, and it will only get worse.

[LC0112G]

Worst thing I've had so far was a rental car in the USA. There was something not right with the rear view mirror - it was basically out of focus. Turns out it was a camera/screen, not a real mirror.

Problem is I'm long sighted. That means I need glasses to see things close up (less than 2-3 yards) but can see distant things ok. So in a real mirror, where the objects really are 10-100 yards away, no problem. However, for a camera screen you actually have to focus on the screen, which in the cases of a 'mirror' is less than a yard away - so I need glasses to see the image properly. When your normal 'scan' is ahead, dash, mirrors, repeat, then the time taken to re-focus on the rear view mirror is noticable, and after a while quite a strain on the eyes.

Thankfully at the first stop I managed to find a switch to turn the camera off, and it reverted to a true mirror.

[Rangie]

Glad I've got two old vehicles after reading these posts, the Range  Rover is a 2007 & there are umpteen functions on that I've never used & never will, don't think I'll be getting anything newer anytime soon.

[johnnydog]

A few years ago, I drove an Audi E-tron - apart from having to get used to it being an EV, I quickly realised it had no side door mirrors, just two small cameras instead, which relayed an image to a screen in the door panel area. The image wasn't like looking in a door mirror and wasn't what I would describe as a 'real image', and after 50 years of using wing / door mirrors, altering my line of vision to look at the door panel to see what was behind wasn't as easy as it sounds.
Don't know whether they still use it or whether other manufacturers use it as well, but it seemed to me to serve no purpose other than a gimmicky gadget which probably was very costly to replace as the  cameras were just as vunerable as door mirrors to drivers who cannot judge the width of the vehicle they are driving.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/audi-e-tron-virtual-mirrors-how-does-it-work/

[Sir Tigger KC]

The day might come eventually, but I have no interest in any car with a big screen sellotaped to the dash. 

[Andy B]

....
 and after 50 years of using wing / door mirrors, altering my line of vision to look at the door panel to see what was behind wasn't as easy as it sounds. ....

I've had my ML for over 4 & a half years. It has a reverse camera but I still default to using the mirrors first .... I maybe use it for the final bit of parking etc
My daughter though uses her reverse camera by default 

[YZ250]

A few years ago, I drove an Audi E-tron - apart from having to get used to it being an EV, I quickly realised it had no side door mirrors, just two small cameras instead, which relayed an image to a screen in the door panel area. The image wasn't like looking in a door mirror and wasn't what I would describe as a 'real image', and after 50 years of using wing / door mirrors, altering my line of vision to look at the door panel to see what was behind wasn't as easy as it sounds.
Don't know whether they still use it or whether other manufacturers use it as well, but it seemed to me to serve no purpose other than a gimmicky gadget which probably was very costly to replace as the  cameras were just as vunerable as door mirrors to drivers who cannot judge the width of the vehicle they are driving.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/audi-e-tron-virtual-mirrors-how-does-it-work/

Unfortunately they do still fit them. Even worse, truck manufacturers are fitting them as well now. My issue with camera door mirrors is, with a standard door mirror you can change the perspective view by moving your head to the left or right, so you can see objects that you otherwise might have missed without moving your head. With a camera mirror, the view remains exactly the same, because moving your head makes no difference whatsoever to the rearward view.   

[Nick W]

There are a couple of reasons for the proliferation of screens(both touch and display) in cars:
 
first is that they're cheaper than discrete, 'real' parts like switches, knobs, handles etc especially when the thing to be controlled is electrically operated. What makes them even better is that the inevitable updates/annual model changes/interchangeability/pointless specification differences are easily accomplished by paying a graphic designer to change the pictures to the latest fad.




second is that we already have a whole generation of users who don't believe anything unless they see it on a screen. Now that displays are already replacing mirrors, how long do we think it will be before the windscreen becomes a real-time-direction-based-true-colour-optical-interface hung off the A-pillars by some over designed, under engineered brackets?


Some of this isn't new though; the list of warnings and outputs is just the modern implementation of all the extra dials(oil pressure/temp, voltmeter, ammeter, rev counter etc) high spec cars got that nobody ever looked at after their first drive.

[Migalot]

OK you guys. You may not believe this and many of you will fall over laughing, but I have a VAUXHALL OMEGA! 

It's fast, comfortable and has enough driver aids, like mirrors, switches and analogue dials, to make driving a breeze. 

[STEMO]

....
 and after 50 years of using wing / door mirrors, altering my line of vision to look at the door panel to see what was behind wasn't as easy as it sounds. ....

I've had my ML for over 4 & a half years. It has a reverse camera but I still default to using the mirrors first .... I maybe use it for the final bit of parking etc
My daughter though uses her reverse camera by default 

Got to admit, in these days of larger vehicles with smaller windows, I am grateful for front and rear parking sensors. I've never driven a car with a reverse view camera, and I don't think I'd find any use for it.
As for the ones that actually park themselves, no way.

[YZ250]

The day might come eventually, but I have no interest in any car with a big screen sellotaped to the dash. 

Me neither.    I recently watched a YouTube clip reviewing the BMW M60 i5 by Harry's Garage. If you come across the clip, just look at how many times he takes his eyes off the road for simple things like heating controls, vent direction etc.  And yes, he disliked it, especially the million and one menus that you can scroll through. He also hated the lane discipline, because he said our UK roads are so shite that we have to swerve to avoid massive potholes and craters in the road, and the lane discipline tries to pull you back in line.  He suspects that lane discipline was invented to overcome drivers staring at their touch screens. 
With a few extra toys on the options list, this i5 was just shy of £116K, for a 5 Series. 

[countrywoman]

Hope my Yeti lasts another 10 years!

[Doctor Gollum]

Relying on mirrors and cameras is poor roadcraft, you still need to turn your head and move in the seat to see what's actually going on around you.

Parking sensors and reversing cameras are useful tools and should be used as such.

Also, whilst it's a valid point re the back that a camera image doesn't change if you move relative to it, different cars have the door mirrors in different positions relative to the base of the screen, so screen positions are no different... You simply adapt to the vehicle you are driving.

As an aside with reversing cameras, they come into their own in tight spaces and when you're hooking up a trailer.

[Nick W]

Relying on mirrors and cameras is poor roadcraft, you still need to turn your head and move in the seat to see what's actually going on around you.

How does that work for you when driving trucks or vans?


A glance over your shoulder to confirm that the blindspot is actually empty is a good idea when the vehicle design allows for it. But if you need to move your body to operate the car, your seating position is wrong.

[YZ250]

………….
Got to admit, in these days of larger vehicles with smaller windows, I am grateful for front and rear parking sensors. I've never driven a car with a reverse view camera, and I don't think I'd find any use for it.
As for the ones that actually park themselves, no way.

The 360 cameras are good, so are front bumper side cameras.    The 360 allows you to see all around and the bumper side cameras are great for seeing out of hedge lined junctions. It’s like having a pair of eyes five feet ahead of your own eyes. 
Self parking is a gimmick. Mine does both bay and parallel self park, I used it once on each space and have never used it since.    To parallel park, tap the screen, slow down and indicate left for a space on the left and right for a space on the right. The car searches for a space big enough and when found it beeps. You stop, accept the space and the car does the rest hands and foot free. 
Sounds easy doesn’t it.    However there is a massive glitch in their thinking that the handbook forgets to tell you. The vehicle uses radars/sensors to position the vehicle so, on a parallel park, the vehicle uses the vehicle in front and behind as a guide, which means that if the vehicle in front and behind have two wheels on the kerb, you’re vehicle will end up with two wheels on the kerb ….. and kerbed alloys.    They don’t show you that on YouTube demos do they. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

It's not only unnecessary, it's dangerous. Even wifey's humble grandland had wondering why it was 'bonging' at me when I went to fill it up the other day. When I explained where I was and what I was doing she informed me I was probably too close to the car in front for the speed I was doing. What??
I told her I turned the heating on but could only see buttons for front and rear screen defrost, nothing to point the heat into the cabin. She said there wasn't a button for that, I had to go into the touch screen menu. What??
She asked if I remembered to turn off lane assist and stop start before I set off. I told her to fill the fickin thing up herself.

The Daily Mail's motoring correspondent wrote an article a while back saying he had just driven a new model (I forget) and it had buttons! He loved it.

Lane assist certainly is dangerous. It drags the car all over the road.

If I forget to switch it off I am soon reminded as it tries to drag the steering wheel from my hands.

[Doctor Gollum]

Relying on mirrors and cameras is poor roadcraft, you still need to turn your head and move in the seat to see what's actually going on around you.

How does that work for you when driving trucks or vans?


A glance over your shoulder to confirm that the blindspot is actually empty is a good idea when the vehicle design allows for it. But if you need to move your body to operate the car, your seating position is wrong.

When I did my Class1/2 licences, I was taught to spend as much time focusing on what was next to/behind you as in front. Easy enough to be aware of your surroundings by observing and paying attention.

As for moving in a car seat, I don't mean clambering onto the front passenger or out of the window, but by turning your head and torso slightly, you get a decent view of the rear quarters.

New camera equipped trucks still have their blind spot mirrors, so the view out is almost as good as it ever was, especially when doubled up with proximity sensors.

[Andy B]

....
 and after 50 years of using wing / door mirrors, altering my line of vision to look at the door panel to see what was behind wasn't as easy as it sounds. ....

I've had my ML for over 4 & a half years. It has a reverse camera but I still default to using the mirrors first .... I maybe use it for the final bit of parking etc
My daughter though uses her reverse camera by default 

Got to admit, in these days of larger vehicles with smaller windows, I am grateful for front and rear parking sensors. I've never driven a car with a reverse view camera, and I don't think I'd find any use for it.
As for the ones that actually park themselves, no way.

My ML will parallel park itself ..... it's pretty clever when it does it, though I rarely use it cos by the time I've remembered  what buttons to press on the steering wheel, I could have parked it myself. 

[Doctor Gollum]

My E Class had it, but I never used it. The R Class was just too old, but the reverse camera on that was dynamic.

Think the S Class might have it, but I suspect that it's part of the rear camera ECU... Which I still need coded to the Command unit.

[YZ250]

My E Class had it, but I never used it…………..

Don’t know what your E Class was like for parallel self parking but the BMW reverses in with one hell of a tight rake. It goes in at a steep angle and swings the front bumper in far closer to the vehicle in front than I’m happy with.    That’s probably why I never use it, but in fairness it can park itself in a fairly tight space. 

[YZ250]

OK you guys. You may not believe this and many of you will fall over laughing, but I have a VAUXHALL OMEGA! 

It's fast, comfortable and has enough driver aids, like mirrors, switches and analogue dials, to make driving a breeze. 

Good car, I cherished mine and it still holds a place in my heart,    although I did send the needle a fair way around the clock on many occasions.   

[VXL V6]

My E Class had it, but I never used it…………..

Don’t know what your E Class was like for parallel self parking but the BMW reverses in with one hell of a tight rake. It goes in at a steep angle and swings the front bumper in far closer to the vehicle in front than I’m happy with.    That’s probably why I never use it, but in fairness it can park itself in a fairly tight space. 

Yeh agree with that, my 5 series does the same and it's a bit of a heart stopping moment!

[Olympia5776]

OK you guys. You may not believe this and many of you will fall over laughing, but I have a VAUXHALL OMEGA! 

It's fast, comfortable and has enough driver aids, like mirrors, switches and analogue dials, to make driving a breeze. 

I've still got mine too .

[Andy B]

My E Class had it, but I never used it…………..

Don’t know what your E Class was like for parallel self parking but the BMW reverses in with one hell of a tight rake. It goes in at a steep angle and swings the front bumper in far closer to the vehicle in front than I’m happy with.    That’s probably why I never use it, but in fairness it can park itself in a fairly tight space. 

My ML needs a gap of the car plus 1.3 metres ..... but as you say, it always seems very close at the front of the car 

[johnnydog]

It's not only unnecessary, it's dangerous. Even wifey's humble grandland had wondering why it was 'bonging' at me when I went to fill it up the other day. When I explained where I was and what I was doing she informed me I was probably too close to the car in front for the speed I was doing. What??
I told her I turned the heating on but could only see buttons for front and rear screen defrost, nothing to point the heat into the cabin. She said there wasn't a button for that, I had to go into the touch screen menu. What??
She asked if I remembered to turn off lane assist and stop start before I set off. I told her to fill the fickin thing up herself.

The Daily Mail's motoring correspondent wrote an article a while back saying he had just driven a new model (I forget) and it had buttons! He loved it.

Lane assist certainly is dangerous. It drags the car all over the road.

If I forget to switch it off I am soon reminded as it tries to drag the steering wheel from my hands.

Two of my cars have lane assist (which I very rarely use anyway) - fortunately, I have to activate it myself on both for it to work which isn't a problem. However the system on newer cars seem to set by default to 'activated' mode whenever the ignition has been off, which would do my tree in.
It's like being a pilot, I guess. Going through the cockpit drill before setting off - lane assist off, engine stop / start off, auto hold on.....

[Marks DTM Calib]

However the system on newer cars seem to set by default to 'activated' mode whenever the ignition has been off, which would do my tree in.
It's like being a pilot, I guess. Going through the cockpit drill before setting off - lane assist off, engine stop / start off, auto hold on.....

You can thank some selfish arseholes in Wolsburg for that!

Since the emissions scandal, the legislation was changed such that the car has to default to the modes used during approvals at every ignition cycle. That means driving modes, any ADAS functions, safety functions etc. Just wait until you get a 24MY car which badgers you every time there is a speed limit change or you go 1mph over the speed limit.....you quickly learn how to knock that one off at every ignition cycle 

[Andy B]

.....
Just wait until you get a 24MY car which badgers you every time there is a speed limit change or you go 1mph over the speed limit.....you quickly learn the to knock that one off at every ignition cycle 

hope it's set up better than than the camera in my ML that reads road speed signs ..... every now & then it comes up with the NSL sign when on a 30/40 road. I've yet to discover what it thinks it's 'seen' 

[VXL V6]

However the system on newer cars seem to set by default to 'activated' mode whenever the ignition has been off, which would do my tree in.
It's like being a pilot, I guess. Going through the cockpit drill before setting off - lane assist off, engine stop / start off, auto hold on.....

You can thank some selfish arseholes in Wolsburg for that!

Since the emissions scandal, the legislation was changed such that the car has to default to the modes used during approvals at every ignition cycle. That means driving modes, any ADAS functions, safety functions etc. Just wait until you get a 24MY car which badgers you every time there is a speed limit change or you go 1mph over the speed limit.....you quickly learn the to knock that one off at every ignition cycle 

Coded the stupid start stop malarky off mine, Only kicks in if I have it in Eco Plus mode..... Which I never do!

[Andy B]

....
Coded the stupid start stop malarky off mine, Only kicks in if I have it in Eco Plus mode..... Which I never do!

My ML's stop/start has stopped working all by itself  I suspect the main battery is a little low, though it never hesitates to start up.

[Carfix]

An interesting read.

Just waiting for all the court cases attributing car crashes due to the driver looking at the screens. (like the use of mobile phones)

Thank god I still have my Omega's. They have plenty of buttons/screens for me but I am not looking forward to the future when I replace them.

[Marks DTM Calib]

.....
Just wait until you get a 24MY car which badgers you every time there is a speed limit change or you go 1mph over the speed limit.....you quickly learn the to knock that one off at every ignition cycle 

hope it's set up better than than the camera in my ML that reads road speed signs ..... every now & then it comes up with the NSL sign when on a 30/40 road. I've yet to discover what it thinks it's 'seen' 

Some system are a hybrid of map data and forward vision systems, it might be that a section of road once was a national and the map is overriding the vision..........plus the vision systems are far from perfect!

[Marks DTM Calib]

An interesting read.

Just waiting for all the court cases attributing car crashes due to the driver looking at the screens. (like the use of mobile phones)

Thank god I still have my Omega's. They have plenty of buttons/screens for me but I am not looking forward to the future when I replace them.

Drivers are getting more stupid.........we get two UK breakdown calls a week where people have pulled over because they have a low screen wash fluid warning.

There was a court case recently (not against us) where a passenger had their feet on the dash and the airbags deployed in a lowish speed crash, it dislocated there hips and paralysed them as they were folded in half...........the owners manual warns of it and its a bloody stupid thing to do but, they still won.

Lets also add that if the insurance companies were allowed to discriminate, then people of a certain religious background would have higher premiums, and the hood wearing females of the same, would be higher still..........and hence why more emphasis is being put on the 'nanny' intervention of the ADAS systems

[Marks DTM Calib]

....
Coded the stupid start stop malarky off mine, Only kicks in if I have it in Eco Plus mode..... Which I never do!

My ML's stop/start has stopped working all by itself  I suspect the main battery is a little low, though it never hesitates to start up.

Keep an eye on it, the stop start systems do not look at the cranking ability, only the state of charge, if its stopped working then the battery is probably not recovering to more than 85% SoC which is plenty to crank but, shows the battery is deteriorating and they have a habit of dropping off a cliff after this point. 

[Doctor Gollum]

.....
Just wait until you get a 24MY car which badgers you every time there is a speed limit change or you go 1mph over the speed limit.....you quickly learn the to knock that one off at every ignition cycle 

hope it's set up better than than the camera in my ML that reads road speed signs ..... every now & then it comes up with the NSL sign when on a 30/40 road. I've yet to discover what it thinks it's 'seen' 

Some system are a hybrid of map data and forward vision systems, it might be that a section of road once was a national and the map is overriding the vision..........plus the vision systems are far from perfect!

Apparently GM are 3D mapping the US for their systems.

[Doctor Gollum]

An interesting read.

Just waiting for all the court cases attributing car crashes due to the driver looking at the screens. (like the use of mobile phones)

Thank god I still have my Omega's. They have plenty of buttons/screens for me but I am not looking forward to the future when I replace them.

Looking at the screen displaying speed and vehicle info is no different to doing the same in an analogue car. The responsibility still rests with the driver to remain observant to whatever is going on around them.

[Doctor Gollum]

An interesting read.

Just waiting for all the court cases attributing car crashes due to the driver looking at the screens. (like the use of mobile phones)

Thank god I still have my Omega's. They have plenty of buttons/screens for me but I am not looking forward to the future when I replace them.

Drivers are getting more stupid.........we get two UK breakdown calls a week where people have pulled over because they have a low screen wash fluid warning.

There was a court case recently (not against us) where a passenger had their feet on the dash and the airbags deployed in a lowish speed crash, it dislocated there hips and paralysed them as they were folded in half...........the owners manual warns of it and its a bloody stupid thing to do but, they still won.

Lets also add that if the insurance companies were allowed to discriminate, then people of a certain religious background would have higher premiums, and the hood wearing females of the same, would be higher still..........and hence why more emphasis is being put on the 'nanny' intervention of the ADAS systems

Much like trying to explain why toddlers and babies really shouldn't be on the floor during a flight... Very hard not to use the words splat and dead

[Andy B]

....
Coded the stupid start stop malarky off mine, Only kicks in if I have it in Eco Plus mode..... Which I never do!

My ML's stop/start has stopped working all by itself  I suspect the main battery is a little low, though it never hesitates to start up.

Keep an eye on it, the stop start systems do not look at the cranking ability, only the state of charge, if its stopped working then the battery is probably not recovering to more than 85% SoC which is plenty to crank but, shows the battery is deteriorating and they have a habit of dropping off a cliff after this point. 

Cheers!
I did get a quote from MB for the two batteries ..... a mere snip at £320-odd for the pair! I disconnected them from each other last summer, the rear showed 12.7V but the main was only around 12.5V

[Andy B]

.....
Just wait until you get a 24MY car which badgers you every time there is a speed limit change or you go 1mph over the speed limit.....you quickly learn the to knock that one off at every ignition cycle 

hope it's set up better than than the camera in my ML that reads road speed signs ..... every now & then it comes up with the NSL sign when on a 30/40 road. I've yet to discover what it thinks it's 'seen' 

Some system are a hybrid of map data and forward vision systems, it might be that a section of road once was a national and the map is overriding the vision..........plus the vision systems are far from perfect!

I believe it just uses the camera .... it doesn't always do it on the same bit of road, but I remember one time it showed NSL on the dash was on a bit of road that I know has only ever been a 30 

[LC0112G]

....
Coded the stupid start stop malarky off mine, Only kicks in if I have it in Eco Plus mode..... Which I never do!

My ML's stop/start has stopped working all by itself  I suspect the main battery is a little low, though it never hesitates to start up.

Keep an eye on it, the stop start systems do not look at the cranking ability, only the state of charge, if its stopped working then the battery is probably not recovering to more than 85% SoC which is plenty to crank but, shows the battery is deteriorating and they have a habit of dropping off a cliff after this point. 

They do!

The Merc system monitors the battery voltage drop during cranking. If the voltage drops below (IIRC) 11.5V then it disables Stop/Start. It'll still start all the way down to less than 9V.

It's not really the state of charge that matters, but the batteries internal resistance. The resistance increases as the battery ages, so it can be fully charged (>13.7V) but still drop enough during cranking to disable the Stop Start.

Mine's been like it for over a year. Behaviour confirmed by iCarsoft scanner. New AGM Stop/Start battery would no doubt cure it, but why on earth would I want to do that! £300 to re-enable something I don't want.

[Doctor Gollum]

....
Coded the stupid start stop malarky off mine, Only kicks in if I have it in Eco Plus mode..... Which I never do!

My ML's stop/start has stopped working all by itself  I suspect the main battery is a little low, though it never hesitates to start up.

Keep an eye on it, the stop start systems do not look at the cranking ability, only the state of charge, if its stopped working then the battery is probably not recovering to more than 85% SoC which is plenty to crank but, shows the battery is deteriorating and they have a habit of dropping off a cliff after this point. 

Cheers!
I did get a quote from MB for the two batteries ..... a mere snip at £320-odd for the pair! I disconnected them from each other last summer, the rear showed 12.7V but the main was only around 12.5V

I replaced my dead 6 months old genuine AGM consumer battery with the biggest Bosch one that would fit. If I'd had the receipt the Merc battery would have gone back under warranty. The front starter battery is still the genuine AGM battery that was fitted with the consumer one... Together about £700

Does the ML only have two? The main one and the diddy one... Or is it new enough to have three

[Marks DTM Calib]

They do!

The Merc system monitors the battery voltage drop during cranking. If the voltage drops below (IIRC) 11.5V then it disables Stop/Start. It'll still start all the way down to less than 9V.

It's not really the state of charge that matters, but the batteries internal resistance. The resistance increases as the battery ages, so it can be fully charged (>13.7V) but still drop enough during cranking to disable the Stop Start.

Mine's been like it for over a year. Behaviour confirmed by iCarsoft scanner. New AGM Stop/Start battery would no doubt cure it, but why on earth would I want to do that! £300 to re-enable something I don't want.

If they do then they are fools! (I am confident they don't as we use the same setup!), they wouldn't meet ISO 16750-2 under those conditions

Monitoring the terminal volts under load tells you little about the battery condition as there are to many variables, temperature being the very significant one, as the chemical reaction in the battery is much poorer at low temperatures and so the VBatt drops much lower. There are also variables with connector/cable ageing, engine types and a whole host of other things.

The SoC is the critical measure for start stop, as it is the only means to tell if you have the reserve to complete repeat re-starts, its also the only viable means to determine battery health by checking the batteries ability to absorb energy 

[Andy B]

...,
 but why on earth would I want to do that! £300 to re-enable something I don't want.

  That was my line of thinking too!

[Andy B]

....
Does the ML only have two? The main one and the diddy one... Or is it new enough to have three

Just 2 .... main under my seat & the diddy motorbike sized battery buried alongside the spare wheel well 

[LC0112G]

They do!

The Merc system monitors the battery voltage drop during cranking. If the voltage drops below (IIRC) 11.5V then it disables Stop/Start. It'll still start all the way down to less than 9V.

It's not really the state of charge that matters, but the batteries internal resistance. The resistance increases as the battery ages, so it can be fully charged (>13.7V) but still drop enough during cranking to disable the Stop Start.

Mine's been like it for over a year. Behaviour confirmed by iCarsoft scanner. New AGM Stop/Start battery would no doubt cure it, but why on earth would I want to do that! £300 to re-enable something I don't want.

If they do then they are fools! (I am confident they don't as we use the same setup!), they wouldn't meet ISO 16750-2 under those conditions

Monitoring the terminal volts under load tells you little about the battery condition as there are to many variables, temperature being the very significant one, as the chemical reaction in the battery is much poorer at low temperatures and so the VBatt drops much lower. There are also variables with connector/cable ageing, engine types and a whole host of other things.

The SoC is the critical measure for start stop, as it is the only means to tell if you have the reserve to complete repeat re-starts, its also the only viable means to determine battery health by checking the batteries ability to absorb energy 

If you google "Mercedes eco-start-stop-technology-guide-pdf", and click on the link to the glaowners.com, you'll get a pdf describing the system. There is a whole load of guff in there, and I checked it all on my car. The only thing that is out of limits is the battery voltage drop.

What I'm unsure about is if it's the drop on the small auxillary battery, or the main 'big' battery. But I can see on the iCarsoft that the 'battery' voltage dips to between 10 and 11V on my car (from > 12.5V) , and that's enough to disable stop start.

[Doctor Gollum]

The R had the diddy one next to the main battery under the front right seat...

[Andy B]

The R had the diddy one next to the main battery under the front right seat...

The QR code on the inside of my fuel filler cap suggested that my R Class had one there too ..... it didn't though 

[Doctor Gollum]

Possibly spec related

[Marks DTM Calib]

If you google "Mercedes eco-start-stop-technology-guide-pdf", and click on the link to the glaowners.com, you'll get a pdf describing the system. There is a whole load of guff in there, and I checked it all on my car. The only thing that is out of limits is the battery voltage drop.

What I'm unsure about is if it's the drop on the small auxillary battery, or the main 'big' battery. But I can see on the iCarsoft that the 'battery' voltage dips to between 10 and 11V on my car (from > 12.5V) , and that's enough to disable stop start.

That's not what the document says at all.

If the voltage dip (U < 11V) at engine start is to great, the engine stop is deactivated for t = 1 minute in order to recharge the Eco start/stop function battery

Its not actually defining what it considers to great and it also is only delaying activation of the stop start for 1 minute. The rest of the doc is referring to 'available electrical power' which is the SoC.

Also, be absolutely assured that your scan tool will not be able to report the mS long volt drop at cranking as its just reading messages at random intevals, you need an oscilloscope on the starter terminal to do that. The volt drop will be down to 9V or less on a cold engine crank (remember, this is my day job on the design side  )

[LC0112G]

If you google "Mercedes eco-start-stop-technology-guide-pdf", and click on the link to the glaowners.com, you'll get a pdf describing the system. There is a whole load of guff in there, and I checked it all on my car. The only thing that is out of limits is the battery voltage drop.

What I'm unsure about is if it's the drop on the small auxillary battery, or the main 'big' battery. But I can see on the iCarsoft that the 'battery' voltage dips to between 10 and 11V on my car (from > 12.5V) , and that's enough to disable stop start.

That's not what the document says at all.

If the voltage dip (U < 11V) at engine start is to great, the engine stop is deactivated for t = 1 minute in order to recharge the Eco start/stop function battery

Its not actually defining what it considers to great and it also is only delaying activation of the stop start for 1 minute. The rest of the doc is referring to 'available electrical power' which is the SoC.

Also, be absolutely assured that your scan tool will not be able to report the mS long volt drop at cranking as its just reading messages at random intevals, you need an oscilloscope on the starter terminal to do that. The volt drop will be down to 9V or less on a cold engine crank (remember, this is my day job on the design side  )

The scan tool does show the drop - it plots a nice little graph. AIUI the SAM measures the voltages and stores them in a ring buffer at a high-ish speed. True the scan tool only 'samples' the data at a slow rate (<5 per second), but the SAM reports the minimums/maximums observed in that interval. So you can see the dips and peaks in the voltages.

You can't directly measure SoC either. All you can measure is current draw and terminal voltage - and the Merc system does both. From those two values you can estimate SoC (by integrating the charge/discharge rates) - but these are derived, not measured values.

What I *Think* happens is that during cranking, the car uses the main battery for the starter motor, and a few critical other systems. However, non critical systems are switched over to the Aux Battery during cranking, and it's this battery that is showing the voltage drop. If it drops to < 11 V then Start/Stop is disabled (t = 1 minute in order to recharge the Eco start/stop function battery).  However, if the battery does not recharge to > 13V in that 1 minute period, then...

If the open circuit voltage (U > 12.5V) of the ECO start/stop function additional battery is too low, the alternator's output limitation (alternator management) (except model 212.095) is deactivated so that the ECO start/stop function additional battery can be charged.

If the voltage dip (U < 11V) at engine start is too great, the engine stop function is deactivated for t = 1 minute in order to recharge the ECO start/stop function additional battery.

The ECO start/stop function additional battery is only connected if the output limitation of the alternator is not active and the on-board electrical system voltage is high enough (U > 13V). It is disconnected again if the limitation of the alternator is active or if the on-board electrical system is severely overloaded.

So if the Aux battery dips < 11V and then doesn't charge to > 13V, stop/start is disabled. It doesn't say it explicitly, but experiments seem to show that the Aux battery needs to charge to > 13V within 1 minuite, or Stop/Start is disabled for the entirity of that engine start.

[Olympia5776]

I'm finding the stop / start function is a Real pita , I really don't want to have to go through a pre flight check to manually disable/enable it ,the lane assist and gradient handbrake each and every time I use the car .
It took me nearly two hours to figure out how to switch the duplicated map on the dash in front of me ( which was already on display on the full central screen)  showing me where I was .
I'm nearly where I want to be regards all the features but that's a week of 'kin headache .
Owners forum gives great feedback on this so it is winging it's way to me as I write this .

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003954198774.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.a6f922bcLOy1S0&algo_pvid=6beddbd1-3a3f-4361-af2d-569dd34ffb4c&algo_exp_id=6beddbd1-3a3f-4361-af2d-569dd34ffb4c-0&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21EUR%2121.10%2110.31%21%21%21161.04%2178.68%21%402101ec1a17069142707876675ecb9a%2112000027625874088%21sea%21IE%214668763959%21AB&curPageLogUid=ufzyDQ5JHw1a&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A

[YZ250]

I'm finding the stop / start function is a Real pita , I really don't want to have to go through a pre flight check to manually disable/enable it ,the lane assist and gradient handbrake each and every time I use the car ……………….

I daresay manufacturers will try to block over-riding stop/start but I’ve coded mine out on both of our Audi’s. On VAG vehicles it’s really easy to code out using VagCom, or Carly, Carista, OBDEleven dongles etc.
If not possible to code out, people would set the stop/start battery parameters ridiculously high using the above dongles so that stop/start voltage could never be achieved.