Omega Owners Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Please check the Forum Guidelines at the top of the Newbie section

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9]   Go Down

Author Topic: Capitol Hill  (Read 9584 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Migv6 le Frog Fan

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Webs End.
  • Posts: 11734
  • Nicole's Papa
    • 3.2 Elite. Boxster. C1.
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #120 on: 08 January 2021, 23:12:15 »

If you want to defend those in the examples I used, and explain how they adhere to a genuine definition of basic principles of Democracy, crack on.  :y
« Last Edit: 08 January 2021, 23:13:52 by Migv6 le Frog Fan »
Logged
Women are like an AR35. lovely things, but nobody really understands how they work.

Field Marshal Dr. Opti

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Utopia
  • Posts: 31564
  • Speaking sense, not Woke PC crap
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #121 on: 09 January 2021, 13:10:48 »

David Camerons resignation for a start.

That's one. Only 649 more MP's to find that "categorically stated they would abide by the result of a Referendum (as all our Parliamentarians did)"

Being a two horse race it can be argued the Brexit vote was more democratic than any general election I can remember.



Even three time election winners Thatcher and Blair still represented a government that the majority of the people who voted, didn't vote for. :)

Logged

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #122 on: 09 January 2021, 15:32:58 »

If you want to defend those in the examples I used, and explain how they adhere to a genuine definition of basic principles of Democracy, crack on.  :y

You're missing the point. There is no "genuine definition of basic principles of Democracy". Democracy is an abstract idea which means different things to different people, and is implemented differently in every country which claims to be democratic. Governments sometimes have to implement things which are against the wishes of the majority of their electorate (tax rises are a good example) - but that doesn't make them undemocratic.

In the UK, the public only have those rights which are granted to them by Parliament. Parliament can add or remove any of those rights at any time. That's what Parliament is sovereign really means.  What Parliament did or didn't do during the 2016-2019 period was not undemocratic under the UK implementation of democracy. The fact that this implementation of democracy doesn't agree with your views on what democracy should be is neither here nor there.

As for Trump - in 2016 he was elected with more electoral college votes than Clinton, but a lower number of actual public votes. Is that democratic? Under the US implementation of democracy - yes - but it's easy for people to complain it's not democratic because fewer people actually voted for him than Clinton. All the senators and congressmen were also elected (AFAIK) under whatever system passes for democracy in the US, and therefore they have that authority to vote any which way they choose.
Logged

Nick W

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Chatham, Kent
  • Posts: 10836
  • Rover Metro 1.8VVC
    • 3.0l Elite estate
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #123 on: 09 January 2021, 15:47:00 »

If you want to defend those in the examples I used, and explain how they adhere to a genuine definition of basic principles of Democracy, crack on.  :y

You're missing the point. There is no "genuine definition of basic principles of Democracy". Democracy is an abstract idea which means different things to different people, and is implemented differently in every country which claims to be democratic. Governments sometimes have to implement things which are against the wishes of the majority of their electorate (tax rises are a good example) - but that doesn't make them undemocratic.

In the UK, the public only have those rights which are granted to them by Parliament. Parliament can add or remove any of those rights at any time. That's what Parliament is sovereign really means.  What Parliament did or didn't do during the 2016-2019 period was not undemocratic under the UK implementation of democracy. The fact that this implementation of democracy doesn't agree with your views on what democracy should be is neither here nor there.

As for Trump - in 2016 he was elected with more electoral college votes than Clinton, but a lower number of actual public votes. Is that democratic? Under the US implementation of democracy - yes - but it's easy for people to complain it's not democratic because fewer people actually voted for him than Clinton. All the senators and congressmen were also elected (AFAIK) under whatever system passes for democracy in the US, and therefore they have that authority to vote any which way they choose.




Yes.
Logged

Migv6 le Frog Fan

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Webs End.
  • Posts: 11734
  • Nicole's Papa
    • 3.2 Elite. Boxster. C1.
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #124 on: 09 January 2021, 16:56:57 »

I think its you who is missing the point. The whole discussion has been about peoples perception of right and wrong, but your talking about legal niceties and Constitutional nuances.  ;)
Logged
Women are like an AR35. lovely things, but nobody really understands how they work.

Nick W

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Chatham, Kent
  • Posts: 10836
  • Rover Metro 1.8VVC
    • 3.0l Elite estate
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #125 on: 09 January 2021, 17:27:06 »

I think its you who is missing the point. The whole discussion has been about peoples perception of right and wrong, but your talking about legal niceties and Constitutional nuances.  ;)


No the discussion was about politics, which is entirely about legal niceties and constitutional nuances. Now you're trying to make it about ethics and morality.
Logged

Olympia5776

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Ireland
  • Posts: 2135
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #126 on: 09 January 2021, 19:10:52 »

No , since reply 91 the subject that Albs has been discussing has been democracy .

I've just revisited this thread and quite simply no salad of words will ever suggest that democracy is anything other than ,
" control of an organization or group by the majority of its members."  ( see , I can search google and copy and paste too ...)
Now you can introduce all sorts of whitabootery but in every democratic system , whatever it's guise , in the free world where a decision has to be made ultimately it comes down to a count , and the largest number within that count carries the motion .
So no matter the many ways that you believe that Parliament can bump it's head on heavens ceiling it's the actual voting populace that ultimately decide what direction it travels and no better example of this can be cited than the debacle that was witnessed from June 2016 to Dec 2019.
Democracy and therefore the direction of a Country ,lies with the people .


Logged

Doctor Gollum

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • In a colds and darks puddleses
  • Posts: 28092
  • If you can't eat them, join them...
    • Feetses.
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #127 on: 09 January 2021, 20:22:34 »

As long as they deign to offer the vote to the people they claim to serve.

In the US, that is reversed slightly in so far as the government does so at the request of the people... Or in other words that by voting they are choosing who the are giving permission to be governed by.
Logged
Onanists always think outside the box.

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #128 on: 09 January 2021, 20:57:27 »

No , since reply 91 the subject that Albs has been discussing has been democracy .

I've just revisited this thread and quite simply no salad of words will ever suggest that democracy is anything other than ,
" control of an organization or group by the majority of its members."  ( see , I can search google and copy and paste too ...)
Now you can introduce all sorts of whitabootery but in every democratic system , whatever it's guise , in the free world where a decision has to be made ultimately it comes down to a count , and the largest number within that count carries the motion .
So no matter the many ways that you believe that Parliament can bump it's head on heavens ceiling it's the actual voting populace that ultimately decide what direction it travels and no better example of this can be cited than the debacle that was witnessed from June 2016 to Dec 2019.
Democracy and therefore the direction of a Country ,lies with the people .


No. In the UK democracy, the 'voting populace' you refer to is the MP's and Parliament - not the people.

The only say the people have is to select who whey want to be their MP. After that it's all down to what the MP's want - not the public.
Logged

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #129 on: 09 January 2021, 21:16:47 »

In the US, that is reversed slightly in so far as the government does so at the request of the people... Or in other words that by voting they are choosing who the are giving permission to be governed by.

In the US, basically no-one is sovereign. The top layer of 'rules' is their constitution. The president cannot change the constitution, Congress cannot change the constitution. and the Senate cannot change the constitution. It takes the agreement of all these, plus the agreement of a large majority of all the states to amend the constitution. This is good in some ways in that it leads to stable rules that are very difficult to change by any one group of nutters. On the other hand it also makes it very difficult to change rules which become out of date by most western standards - like the gun laws.

Individual states can pass their own laws, and Congress/the Senate can pass federal laws, but if they are found to violate the Constitution then they are stricken down.

Contrast that with the UK system. Here nothing is set in stone, and parliament can repeal/amend any law. If they really want to the House of Commons can force through legislation it wants even if the House of Lords vote it down, by virtue of the Parliament Act. So you could perhaps argue that collectively MP's are sovereign. Arguing that the people is just wrong though (I realise you haven't said that).

And by sovereign I mean has the absolute last say - not that you have a King/Queen/Emperor/etc.
Logged

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2439
    • View Profile
Re: Capitol Hill
« Reply #130 on: 09 January 2021, 23:26:43 »

No , since reply 91 the subject that Albs has been discussing has been democracy .

I've just revisited this thread and quite simply no salad of words will ever suggest that democracy is anything other than ,
" control of an organization or group by the majority of its members."  ( see , I can search google and copy and paste too ...)
Now you can introduce all sorts of whitabootery but in every democratic system , whatever it's guise , in the free world where a decision has to be made ultimately it comes down to a count , and the largest number within that count carries the motion .
So no matter the many ways that you believe that Parliament can bump it's head on heavens ceiling it's the actual voting populace that ultimately decide what direction it travels and no better example of this can be cited than the debacle that was witnessed from June 2016 to Dec 2019.
Democracy and therefore the direction of a Country ,lies with the people .

You've picked one of 4/5 definitions of the word Democracy from the OED. The full definition is :

Quote
Democracy
1 A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
1.1 A state governed under a system of democracy.
1.2 Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
1.3 The practice or principles of social equality.

Other definitions are no doubt available. Lets examine those.

1.1 Doesn't help much because it's a circular definition.

1.3 Doesn't help much either.

1.2 is what you're relying on. Firstly I'd argue that a country/state is neither an organisation nor a group. It's referring to things like Mutual Building societies, Clubs with AGM's, Public Limited companies etc.  Secondly, even if you can argue that a state is an organisation, what constitutes it's 'members'? All the people, some of the people, some selected sub group of the people?

1 can be split into two possible sections by vitue of the 'or' in the middle - so I'll call them 1a and 1b.

Quote
1a : A system of government by the whole population, typically through elected representatives.
This self evidently doesn't apply to the UK (or any other country I can think of) - several groups are excluded from voting, under 18's and prisoners at least. Therefore not the whole population.

Quote
1b :  A system of government by all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives..

IMV this is as close as we're going to get wrt UK democracy, but still leaves the question of who/what constitutes an "eligible member of a state". In the UK, parliament decides who is eligible to vote in an election. It allows most UK citizens aged 18 and above who aren't in jail to vote for MP's. Parliament then allows MP's & Peers to vote on everything else.
« Last Edit: 09 January 2021, 23:34:11 by LC0112G »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.047 seconds with 21 queries.