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[theolodian]

I can get a very good hard disk camcorder with lots of accessories for $600.  Or I can get a decent Hi-Def camcorder for about $1,200.  I have a 26" LCD TV with HDMI, and I want to keep the camcorder for 3+ years.  However, I don't expect to use a camcorder all that much.  I do have a Mac Mini Intel that can edit Hi-Def, but not quickly.  Thoughts?

[Craig_R]

Right Here Are My thoughts On what you asked

How Big is the Hard Drive on the hard Drive Camcorder.

For 1 Hour at DV Quality its about 14 Gig or there abouts thats when you transfere it to a computer so i guess the Hard Drive will be about the same on meduim setting.

High Def works out to be about now this is High Def Wide Screen the highest High Def You can Get is 3000 Gig yep 3 Terabytes an hour but you can change the setting when you recorded to the computer.

To be Honest I dont Think You need any Higher Than DV set to animorphic for wide screen but Hi-Def Is nice.

Ohhh and Dont Get anything with less than a 3 CCD Chip in it

It depends if you want to Fork Out Loads More Money For a Small change in Quilty Personaly I would wait and the prices are going to drop more and more.

[Martin_1962]

Well depends what you want to do.

Advice one - use a tape format and never reuse a tape, they are cheap enough to do this so no worries there. You automatically then have a kept copy of original material.

If you are bothered you can get one MiniDV tape on three DVDs.

Advice two - either get a cheapish MiniDV or a mid market HDV.

As to 3 vs 1 CCD - depends on the camera quality, my single CCD is good, it was purchased at the right time (one of those better than before or after models). If you are going to spend a lot of money you might as well go HDV.

Target audience, if it is DVDs for friends ect DV will do, if you are future proofing and want to do stunning home videos and are prepared to do one of the following.

a) Run off PC
b) Play back from camera
c) Have a high res player which can handle hires on DVD
d) Have a next gen burner (BR or HDDVD).

Usage is the key here

[theolodian]

It is a 30GB drive.  I really don't want to deal with tapes.  I am happy to play back from the computer, or use it to convert to other media.  I would like to do VCD's and DVD's to send to people.  I like widescreen, anamorphic is fine.  

I would also like to get a lipstick cam at some point.

I guess Hi-Def doesn't make a lot of sense yet.

[TheBoy]

It is a 30GB drive.  I really don't want to deal with tapes.  I am happy to play back from the computer, or use it to convert to other media.  I would like to do VCD's and DVD's to send to people.  I like widescreen, anamorphic is fine.  

I would also like to get a lipstick cam at some point.

I guess Hi-Def doesn't make a lot of sense yet.

I think with the cost of DVDs, and the better software support, VCD is a bit too old hat now...

[Martin_1962]

VCDs are a waste of time.

DVD cameras are awfull, hard disks, how do you swap them to keep original material (this is the main reason tape is still so popular - very cheap per GB), or do you lose it?

[x25xe]

Well depends what you want to do.

Advice one - use a tape format and never reuse a tape, they are cheap enough to do this so no worries there. You automatically then have a kept copy of original material.

If you are bothered you can get one MiniDV tape on three DVDs.

Advice two - either get a cheapish MiniDV or a mid market HDV.

As to 3 vs 1 CCD - depends on the camera quality, my single CCD is good, it was purchased at the right time (one of those better than before or after models). If you are going to spend a lot of money you might as well go HDV.

Target audience, if it is DVDs for friends ect DV will do, if you are future proofing and want to do stunning home videos and are prepared to do one of the following.

a) Run off PC
b) Play back from camera
c) Have a high res player which can handle hires on DVD
d) Have a next gen burner (BR or HDDVD).

Usage is the key here

Agreed.  I never reuse tapes.  My camera is a 3 CCD and yes, I do notice the difference.  However as Martin says, it all depends upon the target audience.  My camera was purchased some time ago and don't forget that CCD technology has come on since then what with new video cameras being produced and, of course, digital cameras.

In my opinion, HDD cams and DVD cams are NOT the way to go.

[theolodian]

Why do people like tapes?  I don't want to start another tape habit, and I don't want to carry the things around.  Since I am only interested in digital, then the quality of tape or HDD is only a matter of compression right?

[Martin_1962]

Why do people like tapes?  I don't want to start another tape habit, and I don't want to carry the things around.  Since I am only interested in digital, then the quality of tape or HDD is only a matter of compression right?

Well it is a matter of compression and the least compressed domestic format is DV, in fact for domestic SDTV you will not get better results from anything else but DV or MiniDV.

Where 1 is a digital signal of particular resolution

DV is 5:1 compression, full bit rate DVD is 17:1

As to tapes - once you have one that is your master copy, tape is still an extrememly stable storage medium for long term storage, I have played back 21 year tapes this year and they were fine (OK they were Beta but see what I mean).

As to storing them a 64 minute tape is smaller than my spare battery and is also portable, when it is full I just drop another in, you can buy them anywhere, they are a standard.

There is only one drawback with MiniDV and that is getting the data from the camera to the PC is a real time process not 4x or similar.

Now to a clincher.

On holiday for two weeks you have had a great time and near the end you run out of hard disk space - what do you do? You are already comprimising on picture quality, dropping quality down more will get more but the picture will be worse.

BTW DV tapes are roughly the size of a Beta cassette but thinner and are very rare, you get 3hour or 4.5 hour LP on a tape, MiniDV is a small tape version.

However do notice that the hobbyist camera users on this site - ie Me, CraigR, X25XE and Robin Hood all use MiniDV.

We recommend it for a reason!

Why not more compression, well quite simply encoding is best done variable bit rate multi pass on a computer of some form. The best real time encoders are owned by the broadcasters such as the BBC and they struggle quite often on broadcast material.

If you want a shock, play back a recorded off ITV1 programme in slow motion and see the artifacting, my wife watched Xfactor and that was very poor indeed (PQ as well as programme), this is assuming a PVR. The encoders in MPEG encoding cameras are not that good!

Now I found that 2 pass VBR on best settings on my PC took around 20 hours for 90 minute source, that was what I am prepared to do to get the best out of old video tapes especially when selling.

So just have a play with a few different cameras and read up on the PQ differences, also do not automatically dismiss MiniDV, they are popular for VERY good reasons.

[Martin_1962]

HDV now this is a comprimise - mainly because this uses MPEG encoding to fit hires onto a MiniDV tape, this means that on busy footage the picture on HDV may be more detailed than DV but will have  alot more blocking and mosquito noise.

[theolodian]

Thanks for all that!  I guess I am leery of tapes after not being able to find blank VHS in the stores for several weeks at one point, soon after they stopped selling VCR's.  I also think that it would be a lot easier to copy to a computer or external HD a lot easier.  I have a little Linux PVR that I will get a large external HD for.  Figured it would be easiest to keep everything together, and back up to data DVD-R's.  I am going to do any editing on the Mac anyway, and I can make full DVD's to send people.

When travelling I would take a portable external HD, but I guess you need a laptop to offload the HDD camcorder?

[Martin_1962]

Thanks for all that!  I guess I am leery of tapes after not being able to find blank VHS in the stores for several weeks at one point, soon after they stopped selling VCR's.  I also think that it would be a lot easier to copy to a computer or external HD a lot easier.  I have a little Linux PVR that I will get a large external HD for.  Figured it would be easiest to keep everything together, and back up to data DVD-R's.  I am going to do any editing on the Mac anyway, and I can make full DVD's to send people.

When travelling I would take a portable external HD, but I guess you need a laptop to offload the HDD camcorder?

AFAIR the HDD cameras are USB so you will need a laptop as to MiniDV tapes - they are a available everywhere, unlike Vhs it is a live and popular format with a future.

[Martin_1962]

Do to the pickup of HD cameras the number of ordinary DV ones is dropping, but this is an example of a mid range MiniDV - also look at Panasonic and Canon ranges as well as Sony, but regardless of Jaimes opinions Sony do make some of the best cameras.

http://www.jessops.com/Store/s48814/0/Camcorders/Sony/DCR-HC47-Mini-DV-Camcorder-/details.aspx?&IsSearch=y&pageindex=1&CatId=171&comp=y

This is an example not a recommend but it does do Anamorphic go up to £700 or so and you get HD

[theolodian]

Do to the pickup of HD cameras the number of ordinary DV ones is dropping, but this is an example of a mid range MiniDV - also look at Panasonic and Canon ranges as well as Sony, but regardless of Jaimes opinions Sony do make some of the best cameras.

http://www.jessops.com/Store/s48814/0/Camcorders/Sony/DCR-HC47-Mini-DV-Camcorder-/details.aspx?&IsSearch=y&pageindex=1&CatId=171&comp=y

This is an example not a recommend but it does do Anamorphic go up to £700 or so and you get HD

I do like Canon, and hear that Panasonic is good.  I try to avoid Sony, but have to admit that some of their stuff is good.

Canon HV10 is very tempting . . . search for it on www.bhphotovideo.com  They have a whole kit with 2 spare batteries, tripod, cases, filters, etc. for $1,100.

[Martin_1962]

Now to the final bit PAL or NTSC?