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[JamesV6CDX]

Ok, fed up with this project that won't run. If I change all the inlet and that doesn't solve it, I'm going to do something different. Either get rid of it and cut  my losses (shame, it's mint)... or.... Retro fit a dizzy and carb!

I read on the other side a while ago that it can be done, and sounds like a bit of a laff!

Question is, what parts to use. I guess I'd have to change the head, to accomodate a  dizzy that runs off the camshaft. What could I get the head from, would one off say, a 2.0 cavalier fit? then I"d need to identify which gasket to use, and what to do about an exhaust manifold..

And then the timing belt won't fit, so I'd need to use a  different belt..

Then I would need to find a different inlet manifold I guess, capable of taking a carb, and modify the fuel feeds to fit...

Big worry is if the ECU isn't working, eg it's all running mechanically, what impact is this going to have on the autobox, would it get iits knickers in a twist?

Anyone got any thoughts, any of the experienced guys (eg mark ) know if it's actually possible, and what parts from other VXhalls I would need??

It sounds a can of worms, but is it do-able? We're up for a bit of   fun, if it is!!

[markey mark]

while i will say it could be done  :-? you will struggle to get it though an mot cat test matey !! why not fit c20xe red top   a lot better motor and easier to rig up on throttle bodies  

[Andy B]

.....
 why not fit c20xe red top   a lot better motor and easier to rig up on throttle bodies  

But then you're modifying your car & insurance companies don't like modified cars.  
Anyway, surely you're supposed to have more cylinders than doors!  

[STMO123]

You're a glutton for punishment, James

[Admin]

Hmmm, good thing you are not a doctor....

Somewhat extreme measures for what will turn out to be a relatively simple problem.

I know it has probably been said before (by Marks DTM) but the key to resolviong your problem lies in being very disciplined and checking each and every thing in order. Don't go jumping to conclusions or looking at random areas.

It has been the best of many good pieces of advice he has ever given me about working on cars.

[Tony H]

Ok, fed up with this project that won't run. If I change all the inlet and that doesn't solve it, I'm going to do something different. Either get rid of it and cut  my losses (shame, it's mint)... or.... Retro fit a dizzy and carb!

I read on the other side a while ago that it can be done, and sounds like a bit of a laff!

Question is, what parts to use. I guess I'd have to change the head, to accomodate a  dizzy that runs off the camshaft. What could I get the head from, would one off say, a 2.0 cavalier fit? then I"d need to identify which gasket to use, and what to do about an exhaust manifold..

And then the timing belt won't fit, so I'd need to use a  different belt..

Then I would need to find a different inlet manifold I guess, capable of taking a carb, and modify the fuel feeds to fit...

Big worry is if the ECU isn't working, eg it's all running mechanically, what impact is this going to have on the autobox, would it get iits knickers in a twist?

Anyone got any thoughts, any of the experienced guys (eg mark ) know if it's actually possible, and what parts from other VXhalls I would need??

It sounds a can of worms, but is it do-able? We're up for a bit of   fun, if it is!!

"Jeeesus"   talk about the cure being worse than the ailment I second what L.B says methodical and diciplined fault finding is the only way

[TheBoy]

And cure that code 19 fault

[JamesV6CDX]

Reading these responses has really made me laugh and cheered me up  

I knew I was being way out + silly, but the idea in principle seemed like fun and I was interested to hear what people had to say!

I'm all for working methodically to resolve the problem I've got, however, I've nothing left to try

The crank sensor I tried was not brand new, however it has been proven working in another engine, so I can't assume it's that?

I'm outta ideas, the plugs are all the wrong colour, and it's not running, I've already changed DIS, plugs, leads, and crank sensor, I don't know what else to try

I'm all for the methodical approach, but although an enthusiast, I'm not an expert like mark, and there's only so much I know what to look for and how to test - and at the moment, I feel like I'm throwing money at things which aren't solving the cause of this issue.

I  really appreciate the help offered here, and am more than willing to try anything feasable that's suggested!

Cheers all, whoever guesses the cause of this correctly, gets a crate of whatever they drink on me, and I mean that

[TheBoy]

Reading these responses has really made me laugh and cheered me up  

I knew I was being way out + silly, but the idea in principle seemed like fun and I was interested to hear what people had to say!

I'm all for working methodically to resolve the problem I've got, however, I've nothing left to try

The crank sensor I tried was not brand new, however it has been proven working in another engine, so I can't assume it's that?

I'm outta ideas, the plugs are all the wrong colour, and it's not running, I've already changed DIS, plugs, leads, and crank sensor, I don't know what else to try

I'm all for the methodical approach, but although an enthusiast, I'm not an expert like mark, and there's only so much I know what to look for and how to test - and at the moment, I feel like I'm throwing money at things which aren't solving the cause of this issue.

I  really appreciate the help offered here, and am more than willing to try anything feasable that's suggested!

Cheers all, whoever guesses the cause of this correctly, gets a crate of whatever they drink on me, and I mean that

The crank sensor itself doesn't fail afaik, its the cable.  Wondering if by putting on an old (working) one, the cable (which would have been brittle through age and heat) as gone?

Cam sensor is another possibility, but my feeling is still crank (seeing as ECU complaining about it). Assuming its plugged in OK

[JamesV6CDX]

I agree with your logic mate.

Is it worth investing in a brand new one?

[JamesV6CDX]

And yeah, it IS plugged in ok  

[TheBoy]

I agree with your logic mate.

Is it worth investing in a brand new one?

i believe so. if it was me, i would.

[TheBoy]

or strip wire near actual sensor, and run up new bit of wire to plug....  ...purely as a bodge to see if it helps, then replace it...

[JamesV6CDX]

I will give that a go tonight!

[JamesV6CDX]

Tried a crank sensor off a neighbours working Veccy 2.0 (same engine)

Unfortunately the same symptoms.

I also changed over the throttly body but that's not made any difference.

Interestingly, when I hooked up the battery to the omega, the code 19 fault was there before I'd even tried to crank it, and it can't have been a historic code, because the battery had been off for ages...

Stuck!

[Martin_1962]

Your faults are?
Runniung badly could be cam crank AFM or quite a few other things

Not starting, crank is favourite,

[JamesV6CDX]

basically martin, since the engine was put in this car, I've only had it running once,

the engine just occasionally "spits" when trying to start, there is a strong smell of petrol, but it won't run, although it's almost at the stage where it will burst into life.

I know it's not plug lead order, etc, because it DID run on all 4, for a few minutes, AFTER the transplant!!

I think I've ruled out the crank sensor, but I don't know what else to try! I've also tried another cam sensor off the old omega.. no luck...

[Martin_1962]

Petrol - injectors are squirting then, petrol smell usually means not sparking.

Ignition needs both cam and crank, crank I think can stop it starting.

Have you tried a timing gun to see if it is still sparking?

Does the rev counter try moving on cranking?

I think we may be looking at loom issues, you need to see if you can get hold of loom wiring diagram and locations off you know what software. And continuity check cam, crank, ect.

Could something have melted through causing a short?

[JamesV6CDX]

I like your approach there, Martin. I'll hook up the timing gun and let you know what result I get on all the leads.But I can tell you before I do it, that leads 2 and 3 will fire, and 1 and 4 will not.

I had a really close look last night, to make sure that I had no connectors transposed, and that everything was home, which it was.

It is definately not plug lead order causing the non starting, I'm 100% confident that is spot on, and I'm also 100% confident that it's not the cam timing. On the basis that it HAS ran, since the rebuild.

I did fit a different head onto the car during the rebuild, however I know that this is fine, and it can't be a major mechanical fault, because the engine turns, and remember it DID run (after the rebuilt, once it ran perfectly for up to 60 seconds on all 4 pots - I only turned it off due to needing more coolant. It then fired straight up again, and I was able to drive the car around on my drive)

I totally agree that it's not likely to be a petrol problem, that is pretty clear, because plugs 1 and 4 are wet and CLEAN (eg not firing) and plugs 2 and 3 are black and dry. Indicating that there's fuel in all injectors.

This indicates that it's firing only on plugs 2 and 3. I've changed the DIS pack to rule that out, but saw no change in symptoms at all. I've also tried another crank sensor.

I noticed that someone has fudged the wires on the bit of the loom that goes to the cam sensor a bit, however I've checked them out and the connections are all good.

I have noticed that, upon disconnecting the CAM sensor, the engine turns much more freely and does not try to fire. If I unplug the CRANK sensor the engine still almost catches and trys to run.

At the end of the day, I think if I had a spark on plugs 1 and 4 then it would start - so I need to work out why I've got no spark to those plugs. I've replaced so far - plugs - leads - crank sensor and DIS pack. No joy! I've attached a multimeter to the DIS connector, confirming that there is 12v there.

The only fault code stored is 19. Note that code 19 was stored as a fresh code as soon as I fitted the battery - eg before trying to turn the engine over.

Conclusion? I'm pretty sure it's electrical/engine management/sensor related, rather than a mechanical problem. I've been trying to eliminate the problem by changing all the usual culprits, but I believe I've exhausted all of these now, and I'm stuck for new ideas. I'm also aware that by buying DIS packs etc I'm throwing money at it good after bad, which I can't keep up if I'm only guessing.

I appreciate that I must be going on a bit, I'm just so gutted to have such a tidy Omega sat there that won't run! I'm confident between everyone, someone here will come up with something close

[GaryB]

This must be very frustrating for you.  From my understanding of the wasted spark system on the 2.0, the connector on the DIS has four pins which (I think) are: ground; +12v; signal from ECU for plugs 1&4; ECU signal for plugs 2&3.  However, I don't know which is which!.  You have found the +12v, and can easily find the ground pin, now it is a matter of unravelling the wiring diagram to sort out the other two and check for continuity back to ECU (or, indeed, for a short to ground on one of them).  Good Luck

[JamesV6CDX]

That makes sense gary, thanks ever so much! My friend is an electrician, so I'm going to get him on the case!

How is it possible to test for continuity back to the ECU?

[GaryB]

Unfortunately I no longer have my Haynes for the 2.0 (went with the car), but my Haynes for my Corsa (as a comparison) does show the wire colours and ECU pins for the corresponding connections on that motor- I don't know how easy it is to get at the connector at the ECU end (but must be feasible), so a simple check with your multimeter should hopefully give a clue!  The check is easy, in my experience, unravelling the wiring diagram and identifying the right cores is the tricky bit

[JamesV6CDX]

The ECU connector is easy to get off..

I will need to get a wiring diagram then!

[Marks DTM Calib]

There are only three wires to the DIS pack on a 4 pot.....

Pin 1 - Black/yellow to ECU pin 39
Pin 2 - Black/red to ECU pin38
Pin 3 - Black - Main 12V feed

I to suspect a wiring fault, the clue is in the running following the plug lead 'fiddle'.....

Do check that the inserts in the plug are not pushed back into the connector body before buzzing anything through.....wouldn't be the first tim I have seen that happen....

[JamesV6CDX]

I know what you're saying mark, that once I fiddled with the leads, and it just fired into life!!

I'll have a good examination of the connector.

If wiring is suspected, don't forget I have a complete spare engine loom, how much of a headache would that be to change?

[Martin_1962]

DIS to ECU does sound very likely - wether it is a break or a short I do not know

[TheBoy]

DIS to ECU does sound very likely - wether it is a break or a short I do not know

I would have thought a short would be picked up by ECU, and flag it. But I don't know enough about 2.0l really.

[Martin_1962]

All are similar really, my last car had a short on a spark circuit, no fault flagged, but it killed the DIS in minutes