Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: woolley11 on 02 June 2020, 19:59:47
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If I’m changing head gasket and cam belt/tensioner set, water pump etc, do I need to get the locking tools; the red & green sprocket locks and the water pump lock?
See these on eBay for £40 but do I need them ?
Thanks
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If I’m changing head gasket and cam belt/tensioner set, water pump etc, do I need to get the locking tools; the red & green sprocket locks and the water pump lock?
See these on eBay for £40 but do I need them ?
Thanks
In a word ..... Yes!
:y :y
You're timing 2 pairs of cams with each other & the crank and it's possible to vary each bit. Without the locking kit, it's just a best guess.
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If I’m changing head gasket and cam belt/tensioner set, water pump etc, do I need to get the locking tools; the red & green sprocket locks and the water pump lock?
See these on eBay for £40 but do I need them ?
Thanks
In a word ..... Yes!
:y :y
You're timing 2 pairs of cams with each other & the crank and it's possible to vary each bit. Without the locking kit, it's just a best guess.
and you would need about 7 hands just to assemble everything.
It's very simple, you need the entire locking set. You mentioned the three locks but not the gauge, which is the most important bit :y
If you're going to source a set, get one which includes the cranked 30mm spanner. You can do without(or improvise like I have), but it isn't worth the hassle. The spanner is bloody expensive if bought separately.
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One full kit purchased including gauge and spanner :y
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Head gasket or gaskets?
Why are you changing the gasket(s)? It's rare for them to fail on the V6.
In most cases where head gasket failure is mooted by the owner (or more usually a garage), it turns out to be something else entirely. EG the oil cooler.
Also if the heads are warped there is minimal scope for skimming, strictly speaking, per Opel/Vauxhall, none at all. So the old maxim "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies.
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Head gasket or gaskets?
Why are you changing the gasket(s)? It's rare for them to fail on the V6.
In most cases where head gasket failure is mooted by the owner (or more usually a garage), it turns out to be something else entirely. EG the oil cooler.
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Years ago there was an Omega owner near me that had been told that many times .... his car very quickly produced white exhaust. It did turn out to be a gasket. ;)
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3.0 head gaskets aren't that uncommon a failure. 2.6 / 3.2 are very uncommon.
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Early 1998 3.0l do seem a bit susceptible to HGF, leaking coolant externally at the back of 2/4/6 bank. No need to ask how I know that ;D
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Yes Defo head gasket - O/S bank number 1 cylinder gone :-[
In no particular order: Water in expansion tank all gone, emulsion in oil, white smoke/steam from exhaust- and nail in coffin : Compression test shows the No1 cylinder about 40% of the other 5 cylinders.
Aware the head could be warped and that there’s no room for an effective skim as compression ratio and refit of fuel system/injection might not seat properly. I’ve got a good straightedge and feeler gauges so will ensure it is “true” before refit.
There’s an O/S head I can lay my hands on which apparently is straight if not.
Have thought of a full replacement engine if all else fails but not seen any reasonable milers about. Mines done 113k - I think the thermostat has gone as it ran quite hot prior to it failing. :-\
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Minimise the warp risk by gradually unbolting the head bolts no more than 2 turns at a time in a diag. pattern
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3.0 head gaskets aren't that uncommon a failure. 2.6 / 3.2 are very uncommon.
But not unheard of. Look at RaeV6's car... even on spinning it over, the HG were so badly gone it was throwing coolant up out of the plug holes!!
That said, two second hand heads and new gaskets, and it was good as new, still going strong a year or two later :y :y :y
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Yes good bit of advice - to ease it up gently :y
Hoping it’s not warped but I’ll have to take what’s coming :-\
Sad thing is I scrapped a 3.0MV6 with a 97k engine about 7 years ago :-[ - basically failed mot on most things - 4 tyres, 2 exhausts, suspension, brakes, emissions and the 4 door bottoms had gone, oh well we live & learn !
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Head gasket or gaskets?
Why are you changing the gasket(s)? It's rare for them to fail on the V6.
In most cases where head gasket failure is mooted by the owner (or more usually a garage), it turns out to be something else entirely. EG the oil cooler.
....
Years ago there was an Omega owner near me that had been told that many times .... his car very quickly produced white exhaust. It did turn out to be a gasket. ;)
as did mine. Unusual does not mean impossible.
But when you consider the amount of work(and expense) involved in changing the head gaskets, you want to be absolutely certain you're working on the correct problem - it's not the £10 part and hour's work on an old OHV engine
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Haha yes - the little straight 4 cylinder OHV with little or no ancillaries - very quick job those.
I think I’ve spent about 4 hours upto now and ready to undo rocker cover and undo exhaust down pipe and then undo cam shaft and head bolts.
So at least similar hours to refit
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Haha yes - the little straight 4 cylinder OHV with little or no ancillaries - very quick job those.
I think I’ve spent about 4 hours upto now and ready to undo rocker cover and undo exhaust down pipe and then undo cam shaft and head bolts.
So at least similar hours to refit
My one bit of advice: enjoy it! Take your time, and ask on here, there's a wealth of knowledge if you're not sure :y
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Enjoy it ? 🤔 - more like bricking it !😄
Well I will enjoy it - if ever starts again 😂
Could have took it somewhere to have it done but I’ve tinkered with cars most of my life so felt confident to have a go - guess it’s just a case of being methodical 😉 -
..... thinking of the £300+ labour charge I’m saving helps a bit 😊
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Managed to get head off today at last - few hours each weekend steady away. Had a problem last weekend in that my Torx socket head sheared on one of the head bolts so had to purchase another socket - thankfully didn’t round off the head of the bolt.
Clear breach of gasket at cylinder 1 so at least that’s the route of the problem.
Very good technical guide on the forum which I printed off and followed pretty much to letter.
One issue I did find was that undoing the exhaust. I put car on axle stands and removed O/S front wheel to get access under to get to the 2 15mm bolts. I did find that pretty impossible to be honest as I think the nuts would have rounded off. Instead I found undoing the exhaust bolts off the head in situ proved the simplest, once I’d removed the heat O/S heat shield.
I’ll check with a straight edge tomorrow to see how the head is as far as warping
Had enough now so sat in hot tub with Stella - the beer not a lady ! ;D
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My one bit of advice: enjoy it! Take your time, and ask on here, there's a wealth of knowledge if you're not sure :y
it suffers from too much German engineering to be enjoyable, the whole job is a chore.
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Well - got car all back together. New gaskets all round, new drive belt and backplate/tensioner etc.
Drained disgusting brown sludge (aka old oil) and filled with fresh. Filter will have to wait as been sent a spin on when in fact it’s an insert/canister one. Put 5ltr of new fuel in.
Went for a start yesterday - it turns over but in fairness battery sluggish so didn’t expect too much.
Slackened fuel unions off to see if fuel getting to engine which it is.
It does however backfire from the plenum and pushes the rubber bung out (the idle speed valve one) 🤔
One thing I’ve not fitted yet are 3 vacuum pipes (the little diameter plastic ones) - I’ve another MV6 at a body shop so can’t check where they go - but guess wouldn’t stop it starting - just perhaps lumpy.
happy with the timing as did this to the death before reassembling.
Car has been stood 2 years outside and also wondering about moisture/damp in coil pack.
Hopefully something silly - any obvious check points I’m missing ?
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Fuel getting to the engine is one thing, whether the injectirs actually deliver it to the cylinders is another :D
Also, fuel is probably stale after that long.
Backfire is the biggest concern, as my immediate first thought is that a cam pulley may be 180° out :-\
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Mmm - hope it’s ok 😬, as I tippexed the marks etc before removing so everything should be back where it was before strip down.
I’ll get a good jump start and try it that way later
Fuel was bone dry before so hopeful no stale stuff. As you say it’s getting so far but no tell on if it’s getting to injectors or indeed if there’s a spark.
Father in law coming over this afty so can check for spark if there’s 2 of us.
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Mmm - hope it’s ok 😬, as I tippexed the marks etc before removing so everything should be back where it was before strip down.
I’ll get a good jump start and try it that way later
Fuel was bone dry before so hopeful no stale stuff. As you say it’s getting so far but no tell on if it’s getting to injectors or indeed if there’s a spark.
Fuel at the injectors is easily checked: there's a pressure-test port on the fuel rail, just push the valve in :y
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Sounds like the injectors are receiving fuel, you just need to know what they are doing with it :D
As for marks and tippex... The cam and crank pulleys can all fit one of two ways... Spot on or 180° out.
Only you know if you marked the cams relative to the pulleys...
A cam being 180° out would probably only manifest itself as poor running as the pistons should still be in the correct place being a 4 stroke engine. Not sure if the 3.2/2.6 is a wasted spark ignition that fires everytime the piston is at TDC, certainly the 2.5/3.0 are.
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I marked the position of the cam shafts relative to the first pair of shells, and then marked the sprockets to their position on the backplate 🤔
Tried starting it but jump leads getting hot and battery failing. Needs a good kick as it is only wharing over which is like a chocolate fire guard! It did splutter when it had a good turn over but soon battery went down.
Oh well - perhaps need some new jump leads and a new battery.
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A fresh battery and better jump leads won't sort your running problem!
I know it sounds like a pain, but going back over the work you did is the way to fix it. Start with the quick and easy stuff, like the plug leads - sometimes you get lucky!
But I'd be very surprised if you haven't screwed up the cam installation/timing.
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If it didn't start with jump leads, it won't start...
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Thanks guys :-[ - that doesn’t sound good. I can’t understand it if I have dropped a Bol..ck. - every thing lined up including cam belt markings and tippex markings I left prior to strip down 🤔I
I have only done the O/S head off and head gasket as the N/S compassions we’re all good.
Oh well my plan now is (other than call the scrapman (not) 😄
Check HT leads in correct order
Clean spark plugs
Recharge battery
I must say when the engine was turning over fast(ish) it did try and start. It’s just got so sluggish to try and turn over, as though the battery 1/2 dead (even with jump leads)
One thing that I’ve thought of is the coil pack. Unfortunately my other “classic” occupies the garage so I’ve done all this outside. Obviously when it’s rained, and as the rain guttering is off for access to them rear of engine, the there’s wet got into the coil pack 🤔
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It may also be possible that you have mixed up the exhaust and intake cams. :-\
Apart from starting from scratch, not sure what else to suggest :-\
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Thanks Doc Gollum - I even marked the cams “1” & “2” and took pics of their positions prior to removal and all went back as previous :-\
I could take it somewhere for diagnostics - might be worth £50/£100 and see what they say. I’ve no code readers and don’t know if any of the sensors are giving right feedback (if at all).
I’ll keep thinking - obviously car stood nearly 2 years before I stripped it so could be something from it been laid up so long.
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If it ran the day before you stripped it, then it has to be something that was done during the job.
If not, then it will have sat since it last ran, in which case all bets are off.
You can always paper clip it for codes ;)
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A couple of things:
by the time you've removed the entire intake, cambelt and all the covers, replacing just one head gasket is daft. The fault on mine was on the driver's side, but although the passenger side seemed OK, the gasket was barely any better.
expecting the ECU to diagnose this for you is extremely optimistic - its sensors and programming are not intended to do this.
first rule of diagnosing a new fault after work is to go back over what you did.
If that doesn't work, get somebody else to do the same thing, from scratch
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Well my old man used to say if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it ;D - we had good compressions on the N/S bank so thought may as well leave well alone. Knowing what I know now I can strip the thing down pretty quick - the N/S was always the trickier one to do with all the cable tray and coil pack to deal with.
I’m going back through logical “start up” things later in the week ; checking HT leads and right order, spark plugs & cleaning, checking for an actual spark for each pot etc.
I’m going to also check earth straps as the car was only turning over very slowly on the battery and without a good spin I don’t think it’ll do anything. Could need a good clean - plus I noticed some rot that needs welding (don’t think it’s in that area - but haven’t traced the earth strap down yet so could be manky where it is on the body). I also thought about engine being seized having stood so long but I’ve turned it clockwise several revolutions with a socket on the crank bolt. I took plugs out to free up the compression and it turned over fine.
I’ll keep you posted - I won’t be beat !!
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Posted last missive too quick !
I was thinking of doing the paper clip test to see if any codes came up for any faulty sensors etc.
Appreciate bad timing won’t necessarily give a fault code by its itself.
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just be logical and carefully work your way through everything.
did it run just before you did the work or are we talking a couple of years ago ?
if you have got photos of cams and your own markings then check these first to make sure you have the correct cams in the correct place and the pulleys on the front of the cams in the correct place .be 100% sure, just take your time and compare what you used as reference.
then make 100% sure that the belt and pulleys are timed up correctly. turn the engine to nearly tdc,fit the crank tool and carefully bring up to tdc.make sure top alignment tool shows everything ok.tweak if required and then finally check tension wheel marker pointer.turn the engine a couple more times and recheck .
watch club dvd ,youtube videos or whatever method of your choice to be sure everything is ok.
then personally i would crank the engine over with fuel pump and injector relays removed to make sure it "sounds right" if you know what i mean.you should have an evenly spinning engine with no unusual slow spots or fast spots just a normal sounding engine with even compression strokes.
after this its a case of :
are the plugs ok
are the leads ok
is coil ok and firing order correct
is the fuel pressure good,fuel new,filter ok
is everything plugged back in as and where it should be
all air hoses,vacuum hoses,servo hose connection
basically checking everything is back to where it was before you started the job
this list is largely dependant on your answer to the first question thou !
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Have you got the cams correct, there's inlet and exhaust cam.
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It started tonight !! Woo hoo
Bit rough for now but vacuum connections missing on 3 pipes as waiting for other omega to come back so I can see the correct routing . A bit of backfire but I think that’s a build up of fuel etc
Plug leads 2&3 wrong way round on O/S bank, and plug tube 3 on N/S had water in it, due to stood without rain guttering. Took all plug leads off and WD40 up the plug leads, cleaned all plugs, replaced the one stood in water with an old one I kept. (Soaked up water in plug tube with Kitchen roll pushed down tube before I removed plug).
Need new plugs I think, vacuum pipes fitted might cure most of the ailments.
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:y
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Fingers crossed for you. :y
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I’ve put things together again from my cylinder head gasket replacement and timing kit etc.
There’s no tickover and will stall if not a small amount of revs applied.
Runs rough at moment, but as rain channel/scuttle been off thinking the coil pack had got a dousing now. There was water in rear plug tube on N/S so highly lightly. Just need to get some time to investigate and remove/check/replace it.
More interestingly, I’ve also noticed a plastic (not rubber hose)pipe which is 12mm external diameter and 7mm interior diameter that seems to come up from the bell housing but no location in engine bay. I’ve taped it up for now but should go somewhere 🤔
Holding water pressure which is good.
I’ve noticed a little oil leak that could be rocker cover weeping a little.
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That's the gearbox breather.
Oil leak is self inflicted if you didn't fit new camcover seals...
Idle could be a number of things, but make sure that the throttle cable is correctly tensioned.
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I’ve put things together again from my cylinder head gasket replacement and timing kit etc.
There’s no tickover and will stall if not a small amount of revs applied.
Runs rough at moment, but as rain channel/scuttle been off thinking the coil pack had got a dousing now. There was water in rear plug tube on N/S so highly lightly. Just need to get some time to investigate and remove/check/replace it.
More interestingly, I’ve also noticed a plastic (not rubber hose)pipe which is 12mm external diameter and 7mm interior diameter that seems to come up from the bell housing but no location in engine bay. I’ve taped it up for now but should go somewhere 🤔
Air leak, which could also explain the misfire. Go over everything, back to the cylinder heads. Of course, your new head gasket could now be emphasising the weakness in the one you didn't change.....
The pipe is the gearbox breather, which comes out of the gearbox, over the top of the bellhousing and hangs down the other side.
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Thanks for help
Wondered if it was just a breather pipe, as no jubilee or clip markings on it.
I fitted new cam seals so it’s probable I haven’t driven them in far enough 😞🤔
I’ll look at coil pack during week/when I’ve time.
I have moved the clip on the throttle cable and I will see if that makes any difference to the stalling/idle - obviously should do (never thought of that clip position). I did take it off during strip down and just put it back where I thought. I check with my other MV6 and count the rings back so it’s at least same as something that’s running ok.
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That's the gearbox breather.
Oil leak is self inflicted if you didn't fit new camcover seals...
Idle could be a number of things, but make sure that the throttle cable is correctly tensioned.
Surely the idle air intake is controlled via the Idle Air Valve (IAV) on X25XE & X30XE?
The intake butterflies should be fully closed at idle on X25XE & X30XE. So in that respect it shouldn't matter how slack the throttle cable is, the butterflies should be fully closed and air intake solely through the IAV. If the cable adjustment is too slack there will be a noticeable dead spot at the start of travel on the throttle pedal and full throttle will not be achievable. If the cable is too tight them the butterflies will be partly open and the revs will rise. So for those reasons correct throttle adjustment is vital, but won't cure stalling at idle.
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Well I’ve run car up again and g having changed HT leads, it actually ran ok. It just seemed to need a run up and down and get up to temperature.
However it stalled and now when I try and start it, it just sounds like the starter is spinning - possibly starter motor just spinning the crank ?
Thinking the worst that new belt I’ve put on with tensioner/followers has either come off or jumped. Or something new has failed.
Either way it’s seems I’ve run out of ideas and fizz now :(
Options:
To start again,
Have it rebuilt by my local garage (£££)
Replace engine (anyone got a good s/h engine)?
Sell as is
Break it
It’s done 113k miles and I’m only the second owner and very few PFL MV6s left. It’s fully loaded spec wise so seems a shame to bin it
Oh what to do :-\
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Check the timing first, remove as little as you need to until you can spin it by hand to line it up.
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Yes. Take off the timing cover and see is the belt OK, the tensioner still tensioned and the eccentric adjustment bolts on the rollers not loosened?
Did you buy a timing belt tool kit? What make and part number is the belt kit you used? I'd be inclined to completely remove the belt and reinstate it from scratch using the timing tools.
And are you still certain that the cams and sprockets are correctly re-assembled and fitted? Note that your car may well have newer type sprockets with two different keyway positions depending on whether the sprocket is to be fitted to an exhaust or intake cam. One size fits all i other words.
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A known good engine swapped by a competent garage is probably the quickest/cheapest approach.
You could waste alot of time/money trying to find out what went wrong, even if you inadvertently did something drastic. That it started and subsequently stalled compounds the problem, so rule out the basics...
Fuel... How much in the tank, and does the pump work?
Spark... Does it still produce one?
Air... Intake clear and throttle working?
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A known good engine swapped by a competent garage is probably the quickest/cheapest approach.
You could waste alot of time/money trying to find out what went wrong, even if you inadvertently did something drastic. That it started and subsequently stalled compounds the problem, so rule out the basics...
Fuel... How much in the tank, and does the pump work?
Spark... Does it still produce one?
Air... Intake clear and throttle working?
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Always worth checking this. Its easy to bung the inlets on the manifold to prevent anything dropping down there, then forget to remove one or more when reassembling.
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A known good engine swapped by a competent garage is probably the quickest/cheapest approach.
You could waste alot of time/money trying to find out what went wrong, even if you inadvertently did something drastic. That it started and subsequently stalled compounds the problem, so rule out the basics...
Fuel... How much in the tank, and does the pump work?
Spark... Does it still produce one?
Air... Intake clear and throttle working?
[/highlight]
Always worth checking this. Its easy to bung the inlets on the manifold to prevent anything dropping down there, then forget to remove one or more when reassembling.
::) Been there, done that, heard the revving...!
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If I’m changing head gasket and cam belt/tensioner set, water pump etc, do I need to get the locking tools; the red & green sprocket locks and the water pump lock?
See these on eBay for £40 but do I need them ?
Thanks
see your in york my old domain. moved to 5mls south of Thirsk. if you need a hand or any tools i have a extensive range.
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Thanks “raywilb” - very kind offer, but we’re nearer south side of York so perhaps a bit too far.
I’ll strip it down this morning and report back.
As for the belt kit it was a Gates set (belt, backing plate, tensioner). I checked & double checked every setting/timing marks and torque before rebuilding and engine was turning over fine on crank with socket bar.
If belt has snapped I should be in line for parts warranty/engine damage claim but as I as I’m not a professional garage, they’d say I’d fitted it wrong 🤷🏼♂️ - if it’s snapped - why??
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Did you fit the new backing plate or swap the new tensioner/pulley onto your old backing plate? Aiui there are two types of backing plate which are different to each other[others will know in what way] and you're better off re-using your old backing plate rather than changing it.
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No mileage in speculating about the timing belt. Take the cover off and check if it's snapped. Or loose. Or rubbing and shedding black particles. Please report back. There's no point in spending money on new parts until you know where you stand and to that end you can certainly check as much as practical. There's equally no point condemning your engine out of hand.
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No mileage in speculating about the timing belt. Take the cover off and check if it's snapped. Or loose. Or rubbing and shedding black particles. Please report back. There's no point in spending money on new parts until you know where you stand and to that end you can certainly check as much as practical. There's equally no point condemning your engine out of hand.
That.
Don't guess, check.
It's much more likely that the belt timing has slipped than broken.
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Looks like I may be in a similar position to the OP - if not worse. :'(
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Well mystery continues.🤔
Stripped front of engine and removed cam belt cover.
All present and correct, no issues with belt/rubbing. Turned engine clockwise off crank bolt with socket and all 4 sprockets lined up with cut outs on backing plate. Checked sprockets are correct for each cam which they are.
I ought to take cam covers off next and see what camshafts are doing ?
What I haven’t done yet is dig the crank tool out and see what the does with regards TDC.
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Why on earth not? ???
That would have given a much clearer view of the timing than guessing against the rear cover...
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Ran out of time as had to ferry kids about ;)
Will be doing this early this week. I was more initially interested in checking the belt, condition and location of sprockets in relation to the backing plate.
See what I come up with
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Got some time this afternoon to screw on the crank timing tool. I’ve rotated it clockwise to the water pump as one does and locked it in place.
Well the timing looks to be well advanced in that all 4 cam sprockets TDC Marks are equally to the right of the backplate cut outs by about 10mm. :-\
Not sure how mind - but that’s obviously the issue with crap running. I liked to know how it’s happened as I checked and re-checked ??!.
Any pointers to put right greatfully received. Suspect I’ll have to remove belt and start again with the timing as too far to adjust on the belt tensioners.
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Remove/refit the belt again. Methodically. From scratch. Using the correct tools. :y
Oh, and it goes without saying that you must not run the engine again until you have done it. Ignoring this will probably wreck it as the current timing is on the limit of what the clearances will allow.
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Will do - thanks.
wondered if it was pretty close to metal meeting metal.
Just can’t see how it’s happened but I’m a pretty much a novice so must have done something wrong 🤷🏼♂️
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Will do - thanks.
wondered if it was pretty close to metal meeting metal.
Just can’t see how it’s happened but I’m a pretty much a novice so must have done something wrong 🤷🏼♂️
Having one of the eccentrics set wrong so that it stopped tightening the belt as you adjusted it is one possibility.
Not having the belt tight around the crank pulley and wedged in place is another. You have to remove the wedge ohce the belt is around all of the pulleys!
Hopefully you are turning the engine through a complete cycle between each step of the adjustment process. I like at least two 'confidence turns' before putting the timing tools away. I do similar on all complex processes, as it reduces the possibility of having to redo the job :y
You are holding the 30mm hex of each adjuster as you torque the Torx bolt? Having the correct spanner(or something similar in my case) makes this much easier than wrestling with a fullsize 30mm spanner
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From the pictures I’ve taken and studied, the advanced movement is equivalent to 1 tooth of the belt - so whether it’s jumped or “settled down” on running 🤷🏼♂️
Possibly where I have gone wrong in hindsight, is tightening the tensioners hex bolts to a point and then using a 30mm socket to nip up the adjuster in desired position before tightening & torquing the hex bolt.
I don’t have a 30mm spanner in my collection so improvised. Maybe before I do anything I’ll get one of those today.
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From the pictures I’ve taken and studied, the advanced movement is equivalent to 1 tooth of the belt - so whether it’s jumped or “settled down” on running 🤷🏼♂️
Possibly where I have gone wrong in hindsight, is tightening the tensioners hex bolts to a point and then using a 30mm socket to nip up the adjuster in desired position before tightening & torquing the hex bolt.
I don’t have a 30mm spanner in my collection so improvised. Maybe before I do anything I’ll get one of those today.
If you don't hold the adjuster while tightening the bolt, it will move. Which is why you must turn the engine through before refitting the covers.
I bought my timing set used, and it's the cheaper Sealey one that doesn't have the spanner. The first time I used it was with a standard 30mm combination spanner, which is far too long and the ring barely fit the nut. Buying the spanner separately would have cost almost as much as I paid for the rest of the kit, so I improvised:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/d06kigcq0h68pex/CamAdjusterSpanner.jpg?raw=1)
That's an old 30mm socket that had clearly been used with an impact wrench because the 1/2" drive hole was badly rounded. I bored that out so my Torx socket fit through it, and welded on a piece of steel strap bent to clear everything. The hole is to cable tie it to the handle of the locking toolset.
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Thanks Nick
The other thing I’ve noticed is watching the cam belt video is that whilst you ensure the idlers are pre-set at 12 & 3 o’clock. I’ve assumed that these are the final positions and turned the eccentric 30mm heads accordingly 🤔 - rather than letting them “move” adjust the timing.
Few school boys errors but it’s all part of learning & understanding 👍
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Thanks Nick
The other thing I’ve noticed is watching the cam belt video is that whilst you ensure the idlers are pre-set at 12 & 3 o’clock. I’ve assumed that these are the final positions and turned the eccentric 30mm heads accordingly 🤔 - rather than letting them “move” adjust the timing.
What matters is that all of the timing marks align, and the belt is tensioned correctly. The pre-sets are to place the eccentrics so that you get plenty of adjustment to achieve both of those requirements.
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Why are you going to get a 30mm spanner today? On the 2nd of June you told us you'd purchased a timing tool kit complete with the required spanner. You use the spanner in the kit to hold the hex eccentric in position on the idler rollers whilst tightening the Torx head bolts with a suitable socket and ratchet.
One full kit purchased including gauge and spanner :y
From the pictures I’ve taken and studied, the advanced movement is equivalent to 1 tooth of the belt - so whether it’s jumped or “settled down” on running 🤷🏼♂️
Possibly where I have gone wrong in hindsight, is tightening the tensioners hex bolts to a point and then using a 30mm socket to nip up the adjuster in desired position before tightening & torquing the hex bolt.
I don’t have a 30mm spanner in my collection so improvised. Maybe before I do anything I’ll get one of those today.
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Well gentlemen - I think the engine has seized unfortunately.
Tried turning crank clockwise with belt still attached to get to TDC and went fine until it stopped dead. Thinking it was the compression stopping it, I used a length of scaffold pole on end of wrench to get a bit more leverage. Absolutely solid, although I certainly didn’t force it - it should have moved with slight pressure on the pole. Even if I swung my full 14 stone on it, reckon it wouldn’t shift. I’m assuming the worst to be honest as can’t see what else could be issue. You can rotate back anti-clockwise a little but no clockwise beyond a certain point.
Easier to find a couple of built up s/h heads, but crank/conrods/pistons condition unknown 🤔
Perhaps full engine if I can find one.
I had nothing to loose as labour for stripping engine and replacing head gasket on labour alone would be £400 plus VAT that I was quoted, plus parts. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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You should have popped the belt off and put the crank in a safe position before turning the cams. Sounds like the rotation is obstructed now so no way of telling what/if any damage has been caused to the valves without taking the heads off again. :-\
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Rotate crank back a bit anti clockwise. Release tension on the belt then line the cams up and put the locks in place. Put crank lock on and push crank forward to correct position. Refit belt, and tension it. Put everything back together and see if it starts up and runs ok.
Alternatively, take the heads off and inspect everything to see if youve done damage.
Your call. ;)
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I was trying to get it to TDC before removing belt but hey ho.
I’ll give some thought what to do with engine now. Can readily remove both heads to see what is issue, but depends if any bent conrods or damaged pistons. Not one to admit defeat and car defo worth saving. Shame is I scrapped a 97k miler about 4 years ago with engine still in 😞
Probably best to rebuild this engine rather than swop engine for something unknown. That’s a job for someone else😄 - I can strip it but hand it over to someone who knows what they are doing. As I say I had nothing to loose.
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Do your self a favour and hand it over intact... Whoever draws the short straw won't appreciate all the bits in a cardboard box... ::)
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I was trying to get it to TDC before removing belt but hey ho.
I’ll give some thought what to do with engine now. Can readily remove both heads to see what is issue, but depends if any bent conrods or damaged pistons. Not one to admit defeat and car defo worth saving. Shame is I scrapped a 97k miler about 4 years ago with engine still in 😞
Just how fast were you turning it? By hand? :o :o
You've probably bent some valves.
If you're going to have it repaired, then it needs to be diagnosed properly, and that means handing it over as it is. Don't do any more damage buggering about with it.
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The possible damage imo, is a bent valve or two. Theres two ways to find out. See how it runs, or strip it down to have a look.
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The possible damage imo, is a bent valve or two. Theres two ways to find out. See how it runs, or strip it down to have a look.
Three plus teeth out, you may as well just rebuild it as it sits rather than bending ALL the valves :D
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Engine hasnt even been turned over on the starter though. Just the force of trying to turn it by hand, albeit with a scaffold pole.
May well be no harm done.
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Engine hasnt even been turned over on the starter though. Just the force of trying to turn it by hand, albeit with a scaffold pole.
May well be no harm done.
I’ve put things together again from my cylinder head gasket replacement and timing kit etc.
There’s no tickover and will stall if not a small amount of revs applied.
Runs rough at moment, but as rain channel/scuttle been off thinking the coil pack had got a dousing now. There was water in rear plug tube on N/S so highly lightly. Just need to get some time to investigate and remove/check/replace it.
More interestingly, I’ve also noticed a plastic (not rubber hose)pipe which is 12mm external diameter and 7mm interior diameter that seems to come up from the bell housing but no location in engine bay. I’ve taped it up for now but should go somewhere 🤔
Holding water pressure which is good.
I’ve noticed a little oil leak that could be rocker cover weeping a little.
You were saying...
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Ah, I hadnt gone that far back. :y
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I’ve seen a couple of rebuilt heads on eBay - cheaper option perhaps, unless piston/bottom end damage. As you say hand it over to knowledgeable mechanic and see if it can be rescued. I’ve had a go and failed (I think) :(
There’s only 1 tooth out on belt with what I’m looking at - not enough to cause damage I wouldn’t have thought. However without the heads off we won’t know. So got to decide what to do, as guess another £600 for MOT work (welding front inner wings, jacking point(s), needs 4 tyres, discs/pads, brake pipes etc.) - probably £1100 to get it roadworthy assuming £300+ to get engine sorted. All engine parts I’ve bought will go again other than 1 head gasket..
I’ve got another MV6 to drive and the poorly one isn’t my daily driver - I can lay it up (again) and mothball it but would like to get it sorted as it’s a nice motor 😊
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Might be worth dropping this chap a PM...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6661
He hasn't been on for a while, but is relatively local to you and knows his onions.
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One tooth on the belt does not get you to the 10mm previously posted?
If the belt is truly out by only one tooth then the pistons shouldn't have hit the valves.
So a second pair of eyes is a good idea as DG suggested.
There’s only 1 tooth out on belt with what I’m looking at - not enough to cause damage I wouldn’t have thought. However without the heads off we won’t know.
Got some time this afternoon to screw on the crank timing tool. I’ve rotated it clockwise to the water pump as one does and locked it in place.
Well the timing looks to be well advanced in that all 4 cam sprockets TDC Marks are equally to the right of the backplate cut outs by about 10mm. :-\
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I would just retime it and see what happens. Nothing to lose really, as your going to take the heads off or replace the engine anyway.
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Moot point if it won't turn ;)
Well gentlemen - I think the engine has seized unfortunately.
Tried turning crank clockwise with belt still attached to get to TDC and went fine until it stopped dead. Thinking it was the compression stopping it, I used a length of scaffold pole on end of wrench to get a bit more leverage. Absolutely solid, although I certainly didn’t force it - it should have moved with slight pressure on the pole. Even if I swung my full 14 stone on it, reckon it wouldn’t shift. I’m assuming the worst to be honest as can’t see what else could be issue. You can rotate back anti-clockwise a little but no clockwise beyond a certain point.
Easier to find a couple of built up s/h heads, but crank/conrods/pistons condition unknown 🤔
Perhaps full engine if I can find one.
I had nothing to loose as labour for stripping engine and replacing head gasket on labour alone would be £400 plus VAT that I was quoted, plus parts. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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One tooth on the belt does not get you to the 10mm previously posted?
If the belt is truly out by only one tooth then the pistons shouldn't have hit the valves.
So a second pair of eyes is a good idea as DG suggested.
It should turnover easily with a standard length 3/8 ratchet on the crank nut, and you can feel a badly mistimed engine doing this.
If you have to use an extension just to turn it, something is badly wrong and forcing it is a terrible idea.
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Very true, but if hes lucky he just might not have caused any real damage.
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One can be hopeful, but I fear your optimism may well be a, er, stretch :-\
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Very true, but if hes lucky he just might not have caused any real damage.
I'm curious how such damage(whatever it is ??? ) can be done by refitting cylinder heads and timing the cams. And I think that anyone who thinks that having to add extensions to turn a previously free engine is a good idea, probably shouldn't be working on them.
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Presumably he turned the engine by hand until the pistons and valves touched. Then when it didnt want to turn any further he put a scaffold pole on the end to try and give it a helping hand.
So its a matter of either the valves bent or they didnt. See if it runs o k, and if it doesnt dismantle the engine.
Or, dont bother seeing if it runs ok and dismantle the engine anyway.
Maybe Im missing something ? :-\
I might be better reading the thread from the start, but its 6 pages long and Im about to go down the pub, so.................... :D
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Evening - certainly didn’t force it with the scaffold pole - just used it for leverage on the compression stroke.
Turned it by hand easy enough then hit the compression cycle so it became very stiff - hence the pole. It met solid resistance after a few degrees, so left it at that.
10mm was a perhaps a over-estimate - it is more or less a tooth and a bit.
I’ve got a client who’s a mechanic and agreed he’ll look at (and hopefully fix - subject to bottom end damage) it for me - in lieu of my fee.
Think once heads off all will be revealed.
I’ll report back. I can’t pics up easy on this site unfortunately
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Evening gents
Just an update.....
I’ve sold the car as a non runner so it’s gone to pastures new.
There’s some work to do on it but the guy is more than up for a challenge.
It’s a bit of closure and sad to see her go , but it’s got a good home.
I’ll concentrate on my other MV6 now and enjoy that 😊
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An unfortunate incident but, as you say, you can concentrate on the other one now. :y