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[Doctor Gollum]

https://youtu.be/bVN-eWbaSTg?si=WKbQMilxwH6Ssjc0

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

[TheBoy]

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

That's ironic coming from a Merc fanatic - they haven't moved forward since the late 1980s

[Doctor Gollum]

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

That's ironic coming from a Merc fanatic - they haven't moved forward since the late 1980s

Unashamedly so... 

They still produce cars though, so there's that...

[YZ250]

…….
They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Ooh, low blow. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

…….
They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Ooh, low blow. 

Yes....but Jaaag are well ahead when it comes to DEI (Didn't earn it) policy.

And that is far more important than building excellent cars.

[Doctor Gollum]

…….
They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Ooh, low blow. 

Yes....but Jaaag are well ahead when it comes to DEI (Didn't earn it) policy.

And that is far more important than building excellent cars.

I must have missed that memo

[TheBoy]

They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Well, that's debatable .  If 4 wheels hung off a 1970's design still counts as a car, then you are, of course, right

[Doctor Gollum]

They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Well, that's debatable .  If 4 wheels hung off a 1970's design still counts as a car, then you are, of course, right

Even the rebadged clit, sorry, A Class  , is technically a car...

Besides, Ian Callum has never worked for Mercedes, which must be another plus

[Kevin Wood]

They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Well, that's debatable .  If 4 wheels hung off a 1970's design still counts as a car, then you are, of course, right

That would be ok. Their 1970s designs were actually pretty solid.

[Doctor Gollum]

They still produce cars though, so there's that...

Well, that's debatable .  If 4 wheels hung off a 1970's design still counts as a car, then you are, of course, right

That would be ok. Their 1970s designs were actually pretty solid.

I wouldn't kick a nice W116 off the drive

[GastronomicKleptomaniac]

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

That's ironic coming from a Merc fanatic - they haven't moved forward since the late 1980s

Backwards at a rate of knots in the late 90s...

[Doctor Gollum]

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

That's ironic coming from a Merc fanatic - they haven't moved forward since the late 1980s

Backwards at a rate of knots in the late 90s...

Perhaps, but they still outsold JLR at a rate of over 5:1 last year so they must be doing something right/less wrong

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Can't say I was overly impressed with the 2006 CLS 500 I owned.

It did look good but was not particularly well screwed together, or reliable.

[Rangie]

I loved my1993 190e Mercedes that was a really well built vehicle, my E430 Mercedes was a lovely car to drive but being truthful I actually preferred my Omega which it replaced, not keen on any of the offerings from Jaguar or Mercedes presently on offer.

[Marks DTM Calib]

https://youtu.be/bVN-eWbaSTg?si=WKbQMilxwH6Ssjc0

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

Utter junk, the facelift versions are different again, better interior, next gen sound and infotainment, uprated ADAS........and the SV version is in a different league.

[TheBoy]

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

That's ironic coming from a Merc fanatic - they haven't moved forward since the late 1980s

Backwards at a rate of knots in the late 90s...

Perhaps, but they still outsold JLR at a rate of over 5:1 last year so they must be doing something right/less wrong

They are desperately common in these parts, probably the most common brand. But their lease schemes are exceptionally competitive, and I'd bet running at a loss.  That's why bro had S Classes for a while...  ...before coming to the conclusion that Bro No 2 (who had to deal with MB "design team" all the time) was right, and they are all junk made up of random parts from a standard part catalogue.

It all went to pot for them when they effective disbanded their design team around 35yrs ago, which is why the more recent stuff is so poor.


But don't think for a minute that the Scottish idiot Callum is any better

[Doctor Gollum]

https://youtu.be/bVN-eWbaSTg?si=WKbQMilxwH6Ssjc0

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

Utter junk, the facelift versions are different again, better interior, next gen sound and infotainment, uprated ADAS........and the SV version is in a different league.

Here's a question then, and it's not about one brand or another.

Is it customers demanding xyz next gen gubbins, or the designers telling them that's what they need in their lives and then seeing just how much they can get away with charging?

[Doctor Gollum]

Only problem is that it's a five year old car and they've simply not moved forwards.

That's ironic coming from a Merc fanatic - they haven't moved forward since the late 1980s

Backwards at a rate of knots in the late 90s...

Perhaps, but they still outsold JLR at a rate of over 5:1 last year so they must be doing something right/less wrong

They are desperately common in these parts, probably the most common brand. But their lease schemes are exceptionally competitive, and I'd bet running at a loss.  That's why bro had S Classes for a while...  ...before coming to the conclusion that Bro No 2 (who had to deal with MB "design team" all the time) was right, and they are all junk made up of random parts from a standard part catalogue.

It all went to pot for them when they effective disbanded their design team around 35yrs ago, which is why the more recent stuff is so poor.


But don't think for a minute that the Scottish idiot Callum is any better

I suspect, from an S Class point of view, the Prefacelift W221 was a decent successor to the W140, (the W220 was a reasonable car but lacked the presence and build quality for a range topper), but the facelift cars are definitely inferior in terms of fit and finish and equipment offered.

The W222 took off where the W220 left off and is basically a big C Class. Which works out well if you want a new C Class as it looks really classy compared to the old ones, but once you look past the glossy veneer of tat, they're pretty vapid. Like pretty much any premium brand.

Driving a 22 year old A Class home this morning put a smile on my face for it's stupid simplicity.

[TheBoy]

Here's a question then, and it's not about one brand or another.

Is it customers demanding xyz next gen gubbins, or the designers telling them that's what they need in their lives and then seeing just how much they can get away with charging?

I suspect new car buyer customers fit into 2 categories.

The millennials don't care about the car's capabilities, performance, reliability or handling, as long as it has a 56" touchscreen that can run CarWank/WankAuto, and has a default audio setting of over bassed.

Gentlemen "of a certain age" - my gen - couldn't give a shit about the electronics, and wish the manufacturers would just opps them off, and give me a decent chassis and drivetrain, enabling power, handling, reliability, and most importanly, comfort.


I'm not sure who is buying new cars, aside from lease/rental companies. Is it the kids paying £300 a month for something they never own, or older people making a cash/loan purchase?

[TheBoy]

I suspect, from an S Class point of view, the Prefacelift W221 was a decent successor to the W140, (the W220 was a reasonable car but lacked the presence and build quality for a range topper), but the facelift cars are definitely inferior in terms of fit and finish and equipment offered.

The W222 took off where the W220 left off and is basically a big C Class. Which works out well if you want a new C Class as it looks really classy compared to the old ones, but once you look past the glossy veneer of tat, they're pretty vapid. Like pretty much any premium brand.

Driving a 22 year old A Class home this morning put a smile on my face for it's stupid simplicity.

Bro's were all W222's I think (I have zero interest, so never looked that hard). But mid to late 20-teens era.  Having bombed about in one of his soot chuckers was a baseline for the sort of car I wanted.  First testdrive of the x351 variant of the XJ was enough to convince me - so much of a better car to drive, and a far better laid out interior, despite the frog eye vents (and don't get me started on it's pig ugly arse). It was also way more comfortable than his S Class at the time, though I think it was only his last that had the uprated seats.

But, I agree with you, MB seem to make each iteration even shitter than the one before, somehow.  Which kinda proves my feelings that they are failing fast since the late 80s...


I agree with simply snotboxes.  I sorta had a soft spot for the battlebus, which was shit in every way, but it was also fun.  I actually really enjoy driving her car as well, as, although its a paltry claimed 163bhp, it's manual and on a fantastic chassis, and being a base model, has no shit to distract you.  Last car I drove with such a fun drivers chassis as hers was a Alfa Guilia, modern one, not the classics.

[Doctor Gollum]

I think the W222 was released in 2014/15 so possibly. And probably why they weren't great...

I've driven a facelift W221 and whilst subtle there's definitely some differences between pre and post facelift.

The W222 isn't even attractive, it's almost as thought the design brief was to wipe away any suggestive body lines and make it look like a cod from the front.

https://youtu.be/DVzqTDk07jU?si=eOkWPv9aaYlqG7gD apologies for the shit music.

[Andy B]

I think the W222 was released in 2014/15 so possibly. And probably why they weren't great...

I've driven a facelift W221 and whilst subtle there's definitely some differences between pre and post facelift.

The W222 isn't even attractive, it's almost as thought the design brief was to wipe away any suggestive body lines and make it look like a cod from the front.

https://youtu.be/DVzqTDk07jU?si=eOkWPv9aaYlqG7gD apologies for the shit music.

I know a black interior in any car can make it appear a bit dark but ..... wtf chooses a tan & 'wood' interior? 

[Sir Tigger KC]

I think the W222 was released in 2014/15 so possibly. And probably why they weren't great...

I've driven a facelift W221 and whilst subtle there's definitely some differences between pre and post facelift.

The W222 isn't even attractive, it's almost as thought the design brief was to wipe away any suggestive body lines and make it look like a cod from the front.

https://youtu.be/DVzqTDk07jU?si=eOkWPv9aaYlqG7gD apologies for the shit music.

I know a black interior in any car can make it appear a bit dark but ..... wtf chooses a tan & 'wood' interior? 

I like a black interior.  My old V70 had a cream interior and it got mucky very quickly. 

My old BMW 530d had a red interior! 

[ronnyd]

Must admit that i find that a tan interior is very much not to my taste.

[Doctor Gollum]

Mine is two tone grey and charcoal... Seats are all grey along with the door card armrests, waist line and lower dash. Everything else is charcoal, including the headlining and carpets. And there's just enough gloss dark walnut to break it up, but not enough to make it feel like a Lexus

And because it's built, (mostly), properly the wood is actual wood rather than over polished plastic trees

[STEMO]

I think the W222 was released in 2014/15 so possibly. And probably why they weren't great...

I've driven a facelift W221 and whilst subtle there's definitely some differences between pre and post facelift.

The W222 isn't even attractive, it's almost as thought the design brief was to wipe away any suggestive body lines and make it look like a cod from the front.

https://youtu.be/DVzqTDk07jU?si=eOkWPv9aaYlqG7gD apologies for the shit music.

I know a black interior in any car can make it appear a bit dark but ..... wtf chooses a tan & 'wood' interior? 

I like a black interior.  My old V70 had a cream interior and it got mucky very quickly. 

My old BMW 530d had a red interior! 

My Alfa 166 3.2V6 had a red leather interior, with pearlescent blue paint outside. Lovely looking, totally unreliable.

[Doctor Gollum]

I think the W222 was released in 2014/15 so possibly. And probably why they weren't great...

I've driven a facelift W221 and whilst subtle there's definitely some differences between pre and post facelift.

The W222 isn't even attractive, it's almost as thought the design brief was to wipe away any suggestive body lines and make it look like a cod from the front.

https://youtu.be/DVzqTDk07jU?si=eOkWPv9aaYlqG7gD apologies for the shit music.

I know a black interior in any car can make it appear a bit dark but ..... wtf chooses a tan & 'wood' interior? 

I like a black interior.  My old V70 had a cream interior and it got mucky very quickly. 

My old BMW 530d had a red interior! 

I don't know how these cars get built. 

My E39 525SE was a smart silver outside and everything inside was French Blue, and cloth. The only other options ticked were for an Auto box and the no cost alternative wheels.

[TheBoy]

My old BMW 530d had a red interior! 

Just like the Marina?

[Sir Tigger KC]

My old BMW 530d had a red interior! 

Just like the Marina?

Not quite.     

It sounds awful, a red interior, but the car was painted Royal Red and interior had red seats and red panels in the door cards.  The dash, centre consul, door handles and rest of the door card were black. It worked. 

When I phoned the local BMW dealers parts dept, the fella was suitably impressed when he brought up the cars details, Ooo that's got a sports interior! Is it red by any chance? That was an expensive option!    

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I think the W222 was released in 2014/15 so possibly. And probably why they weren't great...

I've driven a facelift W221 and whilst subtle there's definitely some differences between pre and post facelift.

The W222 isn't even attractive, it's almost as thought the design brief was to wipe away any suggestive body lines and make it look like a cod from the front.

https://youtu.be/DVzqTDk07jU?si=eOkWPv9aaYlqG7gD apologies for the shit music.

I know a black interior in any car can make it appear a bit dark but ..... wtf chooses a tan & 'wood' interior? 

I like a black interior.  My old V70 had a cream interior and it got mucky very quickly. 

My old BMW 530d had a red interior! 

I don't know how these cars get built. 

My E39 525SE was a smart silver outside and everything inside was French Blue, and cloth. The only other options ticked were for an Auto box and the no cost alternative wheels.

Good looking cars.

The E39 M5 with a N/A 400BHP 5 litre V8 was a great car.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I know less than nothing about modern Jags, but to me they dont have presence when you see them on the road, whereas old models like the XJ6 did.
They could easily be a big Ford as far as Im concerned.

[Rangie]

Jaguars came off my list as possibles when they made estate versions & diesel versions lost all "class".

[Doctor Gollum]

I know less than nothing about modern Jags, but to me they dont have presence when you see them on the road, whereas old models like the XJ6 did.
They could easily be a big Ford as far as Im concerned.

Mechanically they may as well be...

[TheBoy]

I know less than nothing about modern Jags, but to me they dont have presence when you see them on the road, whereas old models like the XJ6 did.
They could easily be a big Ford as far as Im concerned.

Mechanically they may as well be...

PAG sold what is now JLR in 2008.

Few components are now shared from when PAG was the parent company.  Mine was designed during the PAG era so it has, for example, the same infotainment modules as other PAG brands like Volvo. And obviously the engine is a Ford/(then)PSA production.

Hers has pretty much nothing that could be classed as Ford.  Though it does use ATE callipers, which Ford also do, so....   ....but thats stretching it somewhat


Ignoring the X type, none of the Jaguar (or Landrover) cars are mechanically the same as any Ford, although the original XF and S Type were based on variations of Ford floorpans.  The S Type was discontinued nearly 20 years ago, and the X250 XF was around 10 years ago.


So, a bit of an inaccurate statement there, Mr Gollum.

[Doctor Gollum]

Ok, it might be a bit of a stretch, 

But anything with FoMoCo on it is a Ford part in the same way that Beanz meanz Heinz.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I know less than nothing about modern Jags, but to me they dont have presence when you see them on the road, whereas old models like the XJ6 did.
They could easily be a big Ford as far as Im concerned.

Mechanically they may as well be...

PAG sold what is now JLR in 2008.

Few components are now shared from when PAG was the parent company.  Mine was designed during the PAG era so it has, for example, the same infotainment modules as other PAG brands like Volvo. And obviously the engine is a Ford/(then)PSA production.

Hers has pretty much nothing that could be classed as Ford.  Though it does use ATE callipers, which Ford also do, so....   ....but thats stretching it somewhat


Ignoring the X type, none of the Jaguar (or Landrover) cars are mechanically the same as any Ford, although the original XF and S Type were based on variations of Ford floorpans.  The S Type was discontinued nearly 20 years ago, and the X250 XF was around 10 years ago.


So, a bit of an inaccurate statement there, Mr Gollum.

I briefly owned a 3.0 V6 X-Type Mondeo. Other than being 4 wheel drive it was utter shite.

Possibly the worst car I have ever owned.

[Rangie]

I know less than nothing about modern Jags, but to me they dont have presence when you see them on the road, whereas old models like the XJ6 did.
They could easily be a big Ford as far as Im concerned.

Mechanically they may as well be...

PAG sold what is now JLR in 2008.

Few components are now shared from when PAG was the parent company.  Mine was designed during the PAG era so it has, for example, the same infotainment modules as other PAG brands like Volvo. And obviously the engine is a Ford/(then)PSA production.

Hers has pretty much nothing that could be classed as Ford.  Though it does use ATE callipers, which Ford also do, so....   ....but thats stretching it somewhat


Ignoring the X type, none of the Jaguar (or Landrover) cars are mechanically the same as any Ford, although the original XF and S Type were based on variations of Ford floorpans.  The S Type was discontinued nearly 20 years ago, and the X250 XF was around 10 years ago.


So, a bit of an inaccurate statement there, Mr Gollum.

I briefly owned a 3.0 V6 X-Type Mondeo. Other than being 4 wheel drive it was utter shite.

Possibly the worst car I have ever owned.

.

Good idea for a new thread, my worst car MK3 Cortina 2000e estate everything that could go wrong did & it virtually turned to dust totally rusted away in about 4 years.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I know less than nothing about modern Jags, but to me they dont have presence when you see them on the road, whereas old models like the XJ6 did.
They could easily be a big Ford as far as Im concerned.

Mechanically they may as well be...

PAG sold what is now JLR in 2008.

Few components are now shared from when PAG was the parent company.  Mine was designed during the PAG era so it has, for example, the same infotainment modules as other PAG brands like Volvo. And obviously the engine is a Ford/(then)PSA production.

Hers has pretty much nothing that could be classed as Ford.  Though it does use ATE callipers, which Ford also do, so....   ....but thats stretching it somewhat


Ignoring the X type, none of the Jaguar (or Landrover) cars are mechanically the same as any Ford, although the original XF and S Type were based on variations of Ford floorpans.  The S Type was discontinued nearly 20 years ago, and the X250 XF was around 10 years ago.


So, a bit of an inaccurate statement there, Mr Gollum.

I briefly owned a 3.0 V6 X-Type Mondeo. Other than being 4 wheel drive it was utter shite.

Possibly the worst car I have ever owned.

Shame as they were nice looking cars.

[TheBoy]

Ok, it might be a bit of a stretch, 

But anything with FoMoCo on it is a Ford part in the same way that Beanz meanz Heinz.

Well, technically a PAG part, but thats splitting hairs.

As said, when Ford owned Jaguar and Landrover, it clearly was going to use some PAG parts.  But even then (ignoring the X Type again), they were not "essentially Fords".

Same when BMW owned Landrover, many components were BMW, but it didn't make an early L322 "essentially a BMW"

[TheBoy]

Shame as they were nice looking cars.

Bro had one for a few weeks whilst one of his beemers was being repaired through insurance.  Yes, decent car to look at, but the drive didn't live up to expectation....   ...think Vectra-C or Mk III Mundano (unsurprisingly).

[Doctor Gollum]

Ok, it might be a bit of a stretch, 

But anything with FoMoCo on it is a Ford part in the same way that Beanz meanz Heinz.

Well, technically a PAG part, but thats splitting hairs.

As said, when Ford owned Jaguar and Landrover, it clearly was going to use some PAG parts.  But even then (ignoring the X Type again), they were not "essentially Fords".

Same when BMW owned Landrover, many components were BMW, but it didn't make an early L322 "essentially a BMW"

I don't know, BMW reliability didn't help the reputation any

[TheBoy]

Ok, it might be a bit of a stretch, 

But anything with FoMoCo on it is a Ford part in the same way that Beanz meanz Heinz.

Well, technically a PAG part, but thats splitting hairs.

As said, when Ford owned Jaguar and Landrover, it clearly was going to use some PAG parts.  But even then (ignoring the X Type again), they were not "essentially Fords".

Same when BMW owned Landrover, many components were BMW, but it didn't make an early L322 "essentially a BMW"

I don't know, BMW reliability didn't help the reputation any

BMW's luxury cars were one of the few cars of the era that could make a P38 look like a beacon of reliability