Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: zirk on 26 March 2019, 11:41:53
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Does anybody actually know WTF is going on now :D
The way I see it is the Government now has to sit on their hands whilst the rest of the MP's of the House decide how they can plunge the Country from a bonfire into ashes. :-\
Meanwhile back in Euroland the Clock is ticking and their tapping their fingers on the table whilst looking at themselves with blank expressions on their faces. :(
We must be the laughing stock of the Planet, actually, cancel that, if it wasn't for Donald Trump, We would be the laughing stock of the Planet. :D
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We are nearing the end of the massive game of chicken that has been playing out over the past few months. Looks like the EU blinked a bit and now the ERG seem to be wobbling. We could see a result one way or another by the end of the week.
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We are nearing the end of the massive game of chicken that has been playing out over the past few months. Looks like the EU blinked a bit and now the ERG seem to be wobbling. We could see a result one way or another by the end of the week.
I reckon we WILL have a result by the 12th April, and it will be the EU saying to us, what part of oppsOFF did you not understand
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I thought we was leaving friday ::)
I've just re-wired my house back to good olde English RED & BLACK in readiness,
got a Reliant Kitten for when the German's ask for the Omega back,
I still need to dig out a Chinese TV to use as my computer monitor because i'm using a 32" conrac data modul display (German)
I'm keeping quiet about all my rothenburger plumbing kit :-X
we've got some salad in the fridge but if the EU want to come re-posses that,they are welcome to it ::)
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Does anybody actually know WTF is going on now :D
The way I see it is the Government now has to sit on their hands whilst the rest of the MP's of the House decide how they can plunge the Country from a bonfire into ashes. :-\
Meanwhile back in Euroland the Clock is ticking and their tapping their fingers on the table whilst looking at themselves with blank expressions on their faces. :(
We must be the laughing stock of the Planet, actually, cancel that, if it wasn't for Donald Trump, We would be the laughing stock of the Planet. :D
Yes, its quite simple. Its the same thing that has been going on since the result of the referendum was announced. The remainer parliamentarians - most of whom represent leave constituencies - are trying everything they can think of to stop Brexit from happening, while not admitting to anyone that they are doing it, and so shifting the blame onto everyone else for the problems they are deliberately and cynically causing.
Its hard to believe I know, but Yvette Cooper "represents" one of the most pro leave constituencies in the country. ::)
She (and many others) want either a second referendum, or a long extension which eventually turns into a permanent one, when everyone has given up and forgotten about the whole debacle.
I think theres a reasonable chance that Mays Brino will be reluctantly accepted soon. This depends on the DUP but if they ever blink, its always at the very last minute. They should hve been sent to negotiate Brexit.
If her deal doesnt get accepted, all bets are off. Anything could happen.
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Did anyone notice the french and german parliaments holding a joint sitting this week? Apparently their going to do it once every six months (until it becomes permanent?). If you needed proof that they want a European state................... ::)
https://www.dw.com/en/paris-okays-proposed-french-german-parliamentary-assembly/a-47862751
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Does anybody actually know WTF is going on now :D
The way I see it is the Government now has to sit on their hands whilst the rest of the MP's of the House decide how they can plunge the Country from a bonfire into ashes. :-\
Meanwhile back in Euroland the Clock is ticking and their tapping their fingers on the table
Zwhilst looking at themselves with blank expressions on their faces. :(
We must be the laughing stock of the Planet, actually, cancel that, if it wasn't for Donald Trump, We would be the laughing stock of the Planet. :D
Yes, its quite simple. Its the same thing that has been going on since the result of the referendum was announced. The remainer parliamentarians - most of whom represent leave constituencies - are trying everything they can think of to stop Brexit from happening, while not admitting to anyone that they are doing it, and so shifting the blame onto everyone else for the problems they are deliberately and cynically causing.
Its hard to believe I know, but Yvette Cooper "represents" one of the most pro leave constituencies in the country. ::)
She (and many others) want either a second referendum, or a long extension which eventually turns into a permanent one, when everyone has given up and forgotten about the whole debacle.
I think theres a reasonable chance that Mays Brino will be reluctantly accepted soon. This depends on the DUP but if they ever blink, its always at the very last minute. They should hve been sent to negotiate Brexit.
If her deal doesnt get accepted, all bets are off. Anything could happen.
Yep.....TM Brino may finally get through because the Dickensian undertaker and his mates worry that if MP's get their way Brexit (if it happens) will be even softer.
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The only real brexit is a no deal brexit
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The only real brexit is a no deal brexit
You mean the one where we drive over a Cliff waving the Union Jack, whats it called again, oh yea, Falling with Style.
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The only real brexit is a no deal brexit
You mean the one where we drive over a Cliff waving the Union Jack, whats it called again, oh yea, Falling with Style.
Not what I voted for but the only real/true brexit.
......and we will save 39 billion......or thirty nine thousand million if you prefer. ::) 8)
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......and we will save 39 billion......or thirty nine thousand million if you prefer. ::) 8)
Well heres an idea, we could put that towards the NHS. :D
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......and we will save 39 billion......or thirty nine thousand million if you prefer. ::) 8)
Well heres an idea, we could put that towards the NHS. :D
Added to the 350 million each week from the 'Boris Bus' and the NHS will be set for life..... :)
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......and we will save 39 billion......or thirty nine thousand million if you prefer. ::) 8)
Well heres an idea, we could put that towards the NHS. :D
Added to the 350 million each week from the 'Boris Bus' and the NHS will be set for life..... :)
Wow, we could all go Private, sounds like a Plan, where do I Sign. :D
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Indicative votes are a total waste of time ... the MP's could decide that black is now white .. but who cares ??
Whatever they decide they "want" they have to get the EU's agreement .. and the EU have stated, on numerous occasions since October, that the deal on the table will not be reopened/renogtiated .. (which is what the PM has been trying to do for 3 months) simply because Varadaker has a veto and has said "No" ...
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Anybody who ever thought we would get a reasonable deal is living in cuckoo land, they are clearly the same who believed the shite on the side of a bus.
We do need some sort of deal, I strongly believe that a crash out would hurt us to much and would take decades to recover (if ever)
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Anybody who ever thought we would get a reasonable deal is living in cuckoo land, they are clearly the same who believed the shite on the side of a bus.
We do need some sort of deal, I strongly believe that a crash out would hurt us to much and would take decades to recover (if ever)
Problem is, is our wonderful MPs who are now supposedly in control, and who as you rightly say are living in Cuckoo Land, believe they can get that so called Brilliant Deal on the 11th Hour, despite Brussels constantly trying explain otherwise, or is it just a case of trying to bring the Government down, or do they really believe they can attempt to turn the clock back and cancel Brexit.
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We are a nation of spineless people frightened of their own shadows. We deserve to be a subset of the great Euro project paying for the East of Europe to be developed so they can buy German products.
In a way I hope we do remain ( not that a single Remainer has ever said under what terms - they dont care) we will review how it worked out every ten years. I wonder how loud we will whinge when we are outvoted on the majority vote time after time. Still so long as we are back in the nest that is all that matters.
Whatever happens great damage has been done to the country which will take decades to recover from. The Spineless idiots across all the parties in Parliament share a huge responsibility for that especially Theresa May .
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If a hard Brexit had been embraced from the get go, we would be in a much stronger position than we are now...
Two years of no defined plan or leadership is what has led us to the current wishy washy mess and it is this uncertainty which has done the damage.
It will take several years to recover from whatever happens next, so we might as well leave properly and move forward.
Staying is likely to be no easier, and is likely to be far more damaging in the long run. Imho.
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......and we will save 39 billion......or thirty nine thousand million if you prefer. ::) 8)
Well heres an idea, we could put that towards the NHS. :D
Added to the 350 million each week from the 'Boris Bus' and the NHS will be set for life..... :)
It still wouldn't be enough. All the money in the world wouldn't be enough. Brown more than doubled the NHS budget and it ended up worse.
TB is right. It needs tearing down and starting again from scratch.
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If a hard Brexit had been embraced from the get go, we would be in a much stronger position than we are now...
Two years of no defined plan or leadership is what has led us to the current wishy washy mess and it is this uncertainty which has done the damage.
It will take several years to recover from whatever happens next, so we might as well leave properly and move forward.
Staying is likely to be no easier, and is likely to be far more damaging in the long run. Imho.
I suspect a hard Brexit from the get go would have made jot all difference as what we get is but a tiny factor in the needs of Europe.
Europe only what to make sure its difficult and very very painful to make sure no others follow suite.
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I listened to Nigel Lawson speaking on the wireless yesterday. He said that Hammond is a clueless waste of space who is way out of his depth as Chancellor.
He then spoke about a" no deal Brexit" (actually a false label), and said that it was nothing to be afraid of. It wouldnt cause any great problems at all, but would actually present great opportunities for the UK.
Anyone who claimed different either does so to perpetuate project fear, or hasnt got a clue what they are talking about. :)
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I listened to Nigel Lawson speaking on the wireless yesterday. He said that Hammond is a clueless waste of space who is way out of his depth as Chancellor.
He then spoke about a" no deal Brexit" (actually a false label), and said that it was nothing to be afraid of. It wouldnt cause any great problems at all, but would actually present great opportunities for the UK.
Anyone who claimed different either does so to perpetuate project fear, or hasnt got a clue what they are talking about. :)
I for one can see immediate issues with import/export for Europe with no deal, the mere Trade Tariff overhead would impact, the uncertainty of sending experts to the mainland to support in a working environment, the potential loss of willing low cost labour (unlike the unwilling residential labour).
I could state that those who think that a no deal Brexit wont hurt have never been exposed to the real world operations of industry (Nigel Lawson being a great example!)
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I listened to Nigel Lawson speaking on the wireless yesterday. He said that Hammond is a clueless waste of space who is way out of his depth as Chancellor.
He then spoke about a" no deal Brexit" (actually a false label), and said that it was nothing to be afraid of. It wouldnt cause any great problems at all, but would actually present great opportunities for the UK.
Anyone who claimed different either does so to perpetuate project fear, or hasnt got a clue what they are talking about. :)
I for one can see immediate issues with import/export for Europe with no deal, the mere Trade Tariff overhead would impact, the uncertainty of sending experts to the mainland to support in a working environment, the potential loss of willing low cost labour (unlike the unwilling residential labour).
I could state that those who think that a no deal Brexit wont hurt have never been exposed to the real world operations of industry (Nigel Lawson being a great example!)
here is a real life example of a willing Spanish worker aged 55. hasn't had a proper job for ten years. Could easily get one by going to England as many of her friends have but how does that work for her family. Her friends go to the Uk and can get a job at the drop of a hat despite your unemployment ONLY being 4% She is currently on a training scheme to be a lawyers assistant but today has the choice of having her meagre benefits docked if she does not go to a job interview which she won't get OR take the course exam and still not be able to get work afterwards. After ten years unemployment is still dire here in Spain. You do not see any young people anymore as they are working abroad or seasonally in the tourist trade on the Costas. So post Brexit there will still be plenty of low cost labour just might not be possible to employ it.
No one would say that there wouldn't be short term operating issues. Life goes on. Good companies and Business secretaries would adapt. That is what all good companies do. I could give you loads of examples but car industry will suffice. Diesel and petrol pollute so they stop making them and go electric
You are right about the EU politicians making damned sure that the leaving for any member state would be impossible or at best hard.. Lets just rollover and rejoin with our tails between our legs and stand in the corner for the next ten years with a dunces cap on.
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I reckon if we were to "roll over and rejoin" we'd find that EU membership is not business as usual after this mess.
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If, by some miracle , we did exit on a no deal platform then we certainly wouldn't be the only country to feel any immediate discomfort.
Uk recently announced the tarrifs that would be applied to Irish dairy and meat products ,and they were significant. The effect on farmers would be almost catastrophic over here as the farmers union have warned.
The supreme irony is that the ROI would be forced to ensure that no UK products were allowed into an EU state by means of .....border control .
UK would just need to sit back and watch the country implode.
Varadker is a central player in all of this debacle , and he and this country are enjoying every nanosecond.
I watch with great interest.
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Most UK busnesses are already prepared for a no deal WTO scenario. Indeed, HMRC have been sending out letters for the past few months telling VAT-registered people what to do in the evnt of a no deal. Likewise, the EU announced that they had finished preparations for no deal.
The worst case scenario, thhough, is May's WA. As Steven Woolfe MEP tweeted tonight (in response to a Nadine Dorries tweet):
"Nadine I'm here in the EU parliament where everybody asks "why do British MPs think the WA is leaving the EU when we have taken control of the UK through it" The WA is soft remain and can never be described as leaving. Just info for you "
Also, her extension appears to have run into legal difficulties. This evening it has been reported that former Court of Appeal judge Sir Richard Aikens has said. “The way the government has acted...is, at the least, highly unsatisfactory. It must be arguable that the government has acted illegally.”
UPDATE (seen elsewhere)** Sir Bill Cash and the actual ERG's solicitors have sent to PM pointing out that at the moment it is illegal to extend Art 50 so we must leave on 29th March with No Deal. :y
May is a clown who, together with Olly Robbins, has made this country a laughing stock. >:( >:(
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They are all bloody clowns, it just so happens that May is in the seat at the moment.......it would be no different with any other there.
One of the issues we currently face, as well as the import/export to Euroland, is approvals. If you are n EU member and approve your product to EU standards then certain countries exempt you from local approvals (South Korea is an example, but there are many). If you are not an EU member than all bets are off....
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I don't think you'll have to worry about such difficulties Mark, as sadly our MP's seem hell bent on reducing this country to a state of affairs where we will be a mere province of the EU. :(
If I was cynical, I might think that big business have been showering Westminster with brown envelopes. :-X
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They are all bloody clowns, it just so happens that May is in the seat at the moment.......it would be no different with any other there.
One of the issues we currently face, as well as the import/export to Euroland, is approvals. If you are n EU member and approve your product to EU standards then certain countries exempt you from local approvals (South Korea is an example, but there are many). If you are not an EU member than all bets are off....
Can't disagree with you there. However one thing we are good at as a country (or we were before we became spineless frightened chickens) is sorting out stuff like that. Despite self proclaimed protestations about us being an insignificant country , we are not we are 5th or 6th in the world. What it boils down to in the end is a bit of effort , uncertainty for a while, a degree of turmoil and being in control of our own country OR certainty, continuing good times, the pound improving which will help pensioner expats no end, and being part of a federal Europe run by Euroland with Poundland being insignificant. The latter is what I always expected from the day of the vote.
I cannot remember who said it but "May's deal is worse than staying in the EU."
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They are all bloody clowns, it just so happens that May is in the seat at the moment.......it would be no different with any other there.
One of the issues we currently face, as well as the import/export to Euroland, is approvals. If you are n EU member and approve your product to EU standards then certain countries exempt you from local approvals (South Korea is an example, but there are many). If you are not an EU member than all bets are off....
So to sell products in the EU a UK company has to gain EU approvals (CE mark). There are various bodies across the EU that can grant approval, this costs money. The EU approval is recognised in certain other countries (this is a "good thing")
After brexit to sell products in the EU a UK company has to gain EU approvals (CE mark). There are various bodies across the EU that can grant approval, this costs money. The EU approval is recognised in certain other countries (this is a "good thing").
What's changed?
The danger lies in how comprehensively the negotiators screw things up after brexit.
Approval bodies in the UK (eg BSI) will have grief if the EU want to cause grief but there is no technical reason why this should happen.
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Indeed, the type approvals process works both ways. And I will wager that JLR, for example, has absolutely no problem meeting the requirements of California and Dubai... ::)
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Might be political reasons of course.
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Might be political reasons of course.
Ooh, a cynic ;D
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Might be political reasons of course.
Well , they've been overtly unethical , unreasonable and downright imperious so far so expect them to go into overdrive once we leave ....
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Might be political reasons of course.
Well , they've been overtly unethical , unreasonable and downright imperious so far so expect them to go into overdrive once we leave ....
At the next GE, we should see 649 new MPs.
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It appears the Dickensian undertaker has lost his bottle and will fall into line behind the May deal....
Apparently he has said " the deal is extremely poor but half a loaf is better than no bread"
Whatever happened to the " cake and eat it brexit? "
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Cowardly, self serving, unimaginative clunges to the last >:(
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Indeed, the type approvals process works both ways. And I will wager that JLR, for example, has absolutely no problem meeting the requirements of California and Dubai... ::)
We may well be able to meet the limits (and do, in fact generally in a more honest and factual way than all our German counterparts) but......to approve costs multi millions per module and car line plus 12 months of testing.....on many territories......as I have said before, those who voted out have no idea..... ;D ;D ;D
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But if they already do it, which clearly they do and in anticipation of future legislation, what's the problem ???
If their only market was the EU, you might have a point...
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But if they already do it, which clearly they do and in anticipation of future legislation, what's the problem ???
If their only market was the EU, you might have a point...
I think your missing the point, as an example if you want to ship and sell into South Korea and have EU approvals and are a member state (so under EU law), you can sell without getting additional testing to local regs, if you are not a member state, you need now to re-approve against local regs.
Passing the regs is low risk, spending 7 figure sums and taking a sales hit for 12 months is a big issue.....then you add in all the other countries where the same applies....
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Surely a common sense approach would suggest that if a product meets xyz specs and can easily be demonstrated to do so, then it should be just as acceptable for import as the 'EU' product :-\
A concerted approach by Government and business leaders could have seen a global standard introduced that everyone could work to. After all, we are but a piece of a global economy, whether we like it or not.
Were we not once the measure that everything else stood against?
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Surely a common sense approach would suggest that if a product meets xyz specs and can easily be demonstrated to do so, then it should be just as acceptable for import as the 'EU' product :-\
A concerted approach by Government and business leaders could have seen a global standard introduced that everyone could work to. After all, we are but a piece of a global economy, whether we like it or not.
Were we not once the measure that everything else stood against?
We were, until we sold everything to foreigners.
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Surely a common sense approach would suggest that if a product meets xyz specs and can easily be demonstrated to do so, then it should be just as acceptable for import as the 'EU' product :-\
A concerted approach by Government and business leaders could have seen a global standard introduced that everyone could work to. After all, we are but a piece of a global economy, whether we like it or not.
Were we not once the measure that everything else stood against?
Yes DG; remember "bog standard" - British or German Standard?
Ron.
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I imagine Ron is old enough to remember the gold standard..... :)
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No, I am not and do not: you obviously are as you do remember it - what is it? :P
Ron.
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MP's in the House of Fools have rejected every alternative option for BREXIT in tonight's indicative votes! :D
The only thing that they did vote for was to extend A50 to 12th April or 22nd April if the WD is voted through, but that was largely procedural as the EUCO had already agreed to grant the extension. :P
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MP's in the House of Fools have rejected every alternative option for BREXIT in tonight's indicative votes! :D
The only thing that they did vote for was to extend A50 to 12th April or 22nd April if the WD is voted through, but that was largely procedural as the EUCO had already agreed to grant the extension. :P
No they didnt, they Voted Unanimously on all counts for - None of the Above, ;D
You couldnt make it up if you tried, lets all vote to take control, oh, hang on, weve done that one, what now. :D
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MP's in the House of Fools have rejected every alternative option for BREXIT in tonight's indicative votes! :D
The only thing that they did vote for was to extend A50 to 12th April or 22nd April if the WD is voted through, but that was largely procedural as the EUCO had already agreed to grant the extension. :P
No they didnt, they Voted Unanimously on all counts for - None of the Above, ;D
You couldnt make it up if you tried, lets all vote to take control, oh, hang on, weve done that one, what now. :D
If parliament is incapable of passing any new legislation in the next 48 hours does that mean that article 50 goes ahead as planned on the 29th?
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MP's in the House of Fools have rejected every alternative option for BREXIT in tonight's indicative votes! :D
The only thing that they did vote for was to extend A50 to 12th April or 22nd April if the WD is voted through, but that was largely procedural as the EUCO had already agreed to grant the extension. :P
No they didnt, they Voted Unanimously on all counts for - None of the Above, ;D
You couldnt make it up if you tried, lets all vote to take control, oh, hang on, weve done that one, what now. :D
If parliament is incapable of passing any new legislation in the next 48 hours does that mean that article 50 goes ahead as planned on the 29th?
Fraid not Andy, as they've already extended A50 to 12th April or 22nd April if May's Deal is passed. However if they are incapable of agreeing anything then we leave at 2300 on 12th April, except we won't as they'll kick the can further down the road.... ::)
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MPs this evening decided to collectively change their names by deed poll to Brian Rix. ::) ::) ::)
Final indicative vote of the evening was for organising a drink in a brewery. MPs went home thersty. :-[ :-[ :-[
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;D ;D
What now?
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Dream up any scenario you like Varche it'll likely be as good if not better than the ones we've got now ;D
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How about a pause?
Stay in the EU for another EU cycle ( five years?) but with a vote then enshrined in law which would be legally binding with the terms of leaving / staying being spelt out and agreed before the vote. What is “five” years compared to eternity?
Or just leave with no deal which would focus a few minds.
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The next step is if Bercow allows a third 'meaningful' vote on the WA&PD and if so hopefully it gets defeated again, and for good this time as it really is the worst of all outcomes as outlined here (https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-withdrawal-agreement-is-a-one-way-ticket-back-into-the-eu/). I don't think the article is completely accurate but gives a good gist of things if the WA&PD is passed and we leave the EU on 22nd April under the 'deal'. ::)
I'm with Varche on this, and now believe we need a long extension which will be better then the so called 'Transition Period' anyway as we get to keep our MEP's, ECJ judge, Commisar, and the PM keeps the seat on the European Council. I think staying until the end of the current financial cycle should suffice though, which was the plan with the Transition Period anyway. ;)
I also think that we need to fight the European elections in May to give the establishment a nudge, as they seem to be thinking that a petition and march represents the will of the people. Lets show them what people are really thinking at the ballot box! :y
Farage's new Brexit Party is now ahead of UKIP in the polls and I hope that they can keep the crazies out that have dogged UKIP, and become a force in British politics. I think that any moderate party that promises a clean break from the EU will do well in the elections! :y
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How about a pause?
Stay in the EU for another EU cycle ( five years?) but with a vote then enshrined in law which would be legally binding with the terms of leaving / staying being spelt out and agreed before the vote. What is “five” years compared to eternity?
Won't work. As I've said ad-nausium, Parliament is sovereign, and no Parliament can bind a future one. So if this parliament passed some half baked law requiring another referendum in 5 years time, the next parliament could repeal it. Lord knows which party will be in power in 5 weeks time, never mind 5 years or who will be PM.
Also AIUI the next parliament doesn't mean after the next General election, it means the next session - i.e. after the next Queens Speech which is typically yearly. That's what all the John Bercow fuss is about. Parliament can only vote once per session on any particular motion. Nothing to stop the Parliament passing a law this session, then repealing it next year/session.
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Indeed. A "pause" would, on the other hand, allow all the factions of the current dysfunctional parties to be thrown into the air and be rearranged into alternatives, some of whom would no doubt make manifesto commitments to leaving, and some to remaining.
From that, maybe a majority government or coalitiion focussed on a clear course of action would emerge from an election, rather than one who are verbally committed to "honouring the result" of a referendum but ideologically committed to the opposite.
Then, once the flight plans are filed the pigs can take to the skies too... ;D
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Indeed. A "pause" would, on the other hand, allow all the factions of the current dysfunctional parties to be thrown into the air and be rearranged into alternatives, some of whom would no doubt make manifesto commitments to leaving, and some to remaining.
From that, maybe a majority government or coalitiion focussed on a clear course of action would emerge from an election, rather than one who are verbally committed to "honouring the result" of a referendum but ideologically committed to the opposite.
Then, once the flight plans are filed the pigs can take to the skies too... ;D
I don't like the idea of a General election to sort this. Government of the country is (well should be!) about more than just Brexit. Even if Labour stood on a policy of repeal Art50 or another referendum I would really struggle to vote for them because I recon they'd crash the economy in short order anyway.
I've seen many claim that 80% of people voted for parties committed to "honouring the result" in their manefestos last time. Whilst it's technically true, realistically (in England at least) you had a choice of Labour or Conservative in most seats, and both of these were "honour the result" parties. The other option was LibDem who were remain, but they're toxic to many for reasons (mostly) unrelated to Brexit.
The same will apply next time. This idea of a GE allowing people to change their MP is bogus IMV. The constituency parties select the candidates, and you (generally) vote for the bloke/woman with the red/blue/yellow rosette. So unless the constituency partied junk their current candidate in favour of someone more Brexit minded, the parliamentary make up won't change. Constituency parties are unlikely to junk sitting MP's. A new UKIP style party might steal enough votes from the current MP, but they aren't going to get enough votes to get elected themselves so they just end up letting the other bloke wearing the other colour rosette in.
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True. My scenario would require the traditional parties to implode, otherwise our electoral system doesn't give anyone else a look in, as you say.
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all this debate because most of you and the politicians did not have the foresight to buy a stockpile of beanz , heinz or otherwise ::)
we could be left by now :D ;D
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Indeed. A "pause" would, on the other hand, allow all the factions of the current dysfunctional parties to be thrown into the air and be rearranged into alternatives, some of whom would no doubt make manifesto commitments to leaving, and some to remaining.
From that, maybe a majority government or coalitiion focussed on a clear course of action would emerge from an election, rather than one who are verbally committed to "honouring the result" of a referendum but ideologically committed to the opposite.
Then, once the flight plans are filed the pigs can take to the skies too... ;D
I don't like the idea of a General election to sort this. Government of the country is (well should be!) about more than just Brexit. Even if Labour stood on a policy of repeal Art50 or another referendum I would really struggle to vote for them because I recon they'd crash the economy in short order anyway.
I've seen many claim that 80% of people voted for parties committed to "honouring the result" in their manefestos last time. Whilst it's technically true, realistically (in England at least) you had a choice of Labour or Conservative in most seats, and both of these were "honour the result" parties. The other option was LibDem who were remain, but they're toxic to many for reasons (mostly) unrelated to Brexit.
The same will apply next time. This idea of a GE allowing people to change their MP is bogus IMV. The constituency parties select the candidates, and you (generally) vote for the bloke/woman with the red/blue/yellow rosette. So unless the constituency partied junk their current candidate in favour of someone more Brexit minded, the parliamentary make up won't change. Constituency parties are unlikely to junk sitting MP's. A new UKIP style party might steal enough votes from the current MP, but they aren't going to get enough votes to get elected themselves so they just end up letting the other bloke wearing the other colour rosette in.
Maybe each party should be forced to field two candidates - one pro brexit and one pro remain ;)
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Referendum by any other name :-X
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Anybody want to buy some
Beans Beanz?
I've got my stockpile, but, if they're not good enough for Opti, they're not good enough for me... ;D
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Another insightful piece from JP
https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ
Goes without saying NWS...
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Don't think I've got anything to add to that. ;D
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However one thing we are good at as a country (or we were before we became spineless frightened chickens) is sorting out stuff like that.
No we aint. The current shinnanigans prove that. The civil service in the UK is on a par with the train companies, they exist to serve themselves, not the people they should be serving.
Despite self proclaimed protestations about us being an insignificant country , we are not we are 5th or 6th in the world.
Yes, by having the united power of Europe, both as a market itself (and easy component supply from Europe), but also as a bloc that has concessions elsewhere, including what DTM suggested.
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It isn't just about finance. Its about more important things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA
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Quite :y
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Absolutely, it's about the long term future of this country. :y
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Another insightful piece from JP
https://youtu.be/-IL2XwSkFJQ
Goes without saying NWS...
;D ;D ;D
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It isn't just about finance. Its about more important things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA
He shaved his little moustache off. ::)
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It isn't just about finance. Its about more important things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xg7JwbJfWA
Finance plays a big part. Effectively, ignoring my pension (which is now wiped out, obviously, making me dependent on the state in less than 20yrs time, adding extra burden to a crippled system), rather predictably our place is all getting their pay scales adjusted, and that puts me over Ł500 a month worse off. I predicted it would come before the referendum*, but it still comes as a wet fish smacked around the chops. That's on top of the well publicised issues around the security of Mrs TB's role.
So, everyone with their bigoted, rose tinted glasses of an alternative reality, it will come home to roost for you too, no matter how many lies written on the side of a bus you care to believe. Unless you are a civil servant of course, in which case you'll be just grand.
*I've been baiting those leave colleagues who also believed the lies all week, as none of them are happy about it, and believed it wouldn't happen. All of a sudden, now reality has dawned, they are trying to log on to the petition for another referendum... ...that stable door has long been too far open ;D
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You would have had to have been criminally stupid to believe what was written on either side of either bus...
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You would have had to have been criminally stupid to believe what was written on either side of either bus...
Well exactly, but this is the British population. Who are, as you put it, criminally stupid for the most part.
But at least some of the shit that leavers denounced as Project Fear have been found to be a likely reality. I say that with a heavy heart, as I was hoping that it was me being stupid. But seems my Crystal Ball was bang on. Again.
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You would have had to have been criminally stupid to believe what was written on either side of either bus...
Ahem.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html)
Incase you CBA to brave the ads...
Nearly half of the British public still believe the false claim from the Brexit referendum that the UK sends Ł350m a week to the EU, despite persistent attempts to debunk the myth.
A new study by King’s College London of attitudes to Brexit found that 42 per cent of people who had heard of the claim still believe it is true, while just 36 per cent thought it was false and 22 per cent were unsure.
The research, conducted with the help of pollster Ipsos MORI, shows that sustained criticism of the false claim by the UK Statistics Authority and others has had little effect, with perceptions mostly unchanged since before the referendum.
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You would have had to have been criminally stupid to believe what was written on either side of either bus...
Well exactly, but this is the British population. Who are, as you put it, criminally stupid for the most part.
But at least some of the shit that leavers denounced as Project Fear have been found to be a likely reality. I say that with a heavy heart, as I was hoping that it was me being stupid. But seems my Crystal Ball was bang on. Again.
If you think you can, or you think your can't, you're right...
No one ever said a proper Brexit would be easy. Had we left on the wave of the referendum result, then I genuinely believe that we would be beginning to reap the rewards by now.
Instead, we find ourselves buried in this pile of shambolic shyte. It almost reminds me of the blind panic surrounding the Millenium Bug. The primary difference being than on Jan 2nd, 2000, absolutely nothing had imploded.
And your pension fund has been decimated as a result of successive rehashes following privatisation rather than Brexit. ;)
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You would have had to have been criminally stupid to believe what was written on either side of either bus...
Ahem.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-brexit-lies-eu-pay-money-remain-poll-boris-johnson-a8603646.html)
Incase you CBA to brave the ads...
Nearly half of the British public still believe the false claim from the Brexit referendum that the UK sends Ł350m a week to the EU, despite persistent attempts to debunk the myth.
A new study by King’s College London of attitudes to Brexit found that 42 per cent of people who had heard of the claim still believe it is true, while just 36 per cent thought it was false and 22 per cent were unsure.
The research, conducted with the help of pollster Ipsos MORI, shows that sustained criticism of the false claim by the UK Statistics Authority and others has had little effect, with perceptions mostly unchanged since before the referendum.
And who paid for that survey... ::)
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Jimmy. That article doesn't actually say what the actual figure is.
If we don't net pay the EU anything each week, why have we negotiated to pay 39 billion as a severance.? What is that ? 39 million weeks worth?
Just where is all the money coming from that countries that receive more than they contribute come from? The EU money tree I guess.
On the subject of pensions and benefits. Havent we all been screwed over by companies saving money or trying to meet pension commitments that were made in the years of plenty.? I just cashed in a Ł7000 share ISA which is now worth Ł2,300. The only people well remunerated are the company bosses who have increased the differential to workers nicely.
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Most previously generous pension schemes have switched from Defined Benefit to Defined Contribution with minimal contribution matching, particularly in sectors that were previously publicly owned... The global recession didn't help matters any.
Brexit deal or not, the most nervous will be those up to their eyeballs in mortgages, commercial and consumer debt. For these people the status quo has to be a pretty comfortable safety blanket :-\
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A view of the BREXIT situation from the leader of Germany's AfD, a party variously described by the UK MSM as 'far right', 'Populist' and the like. They have 94 seats in the Bundestag out of a total of 598.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM
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And your pension fund has been decimated as a result of successive rehashes following privatisation rather than Brexit. ;)
That's a bold statement for somebody who, hopefully, doesn't have access to any of my pensions.
Let me assure the honourable gentleman that I've been watching my (non DB) pensions closely since having to take out the first DC one, so have a pretty good handle the recession dips and the (distant memory) boom bumps. The longest standing DC one has had a double dip in the last near 3 years, a significant one at the referendum result, and a constant slide since the May deal outcome was looking unlikely. Its probably around a 6 figure loss, on a pot that's not that big anyway.
That, to me, is decimated. And all Brexit (or economy problems related to Brexit) related.
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If we don't net pay the EU anything each week, why have we negotiated to pay 39 billion as a severance.? What is that ? 39 million weeks worth?
Don't forget that the UK also takes money from the EU money tree, and some of that Ł39b will be to repay some of the projects already committed in the UK.
But we do pay in more than we take out. But that surplus will likely not cover what we will have to do for ourselves instead of the EU doing. Globalisation has happened, and cannot be reverted. Thus you need to grasp how it works, how it allows OUR economy to work, and what a global insignificance we are in the global world without being allied to another group of countries. Whether that is Europe, or the 51st state, is potentially immaterial, other than one is workable, t'other probably isn't.
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As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.
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And your pension fund has been decimated as a result of successive rehashes following privatisation rather than Brexit. ;)
That's a bold statement for somebody who, hopefully, doesn't have access to any of my pensions.
Let me assure the honourable gentleman that I've been watching my (non DB) pensions closely since having to take out the first DC one, so have a pretty good handle the recession dips and the (distant memory) boom bumps. The longest standing DC one has had a double dip in the last near 3 years, a significant one at the referendum result, and a constant slide since the May deal outcome was looking unlikely. Its probably around a 6 figure loss, on a pot that's not that big anyway.
That, to me, is decimated. And all Brexit (or economy problems related to Brexit) related.
You cannot lay all of that at the leave door. A lot of the UK market slump has been manufactured directly by the remain establishment. Project Fear for one. If you want a hate figurehead you could do well to look at mark carney who has done the Uk economy a lot of damage by declaring this a disaster or that a disaster when time has shown it to be otherwise. Don't forget that apart from the vote result very little else changed in the economy which is doing alright. I say all this by the way as an expat that has seen his UK derived income slashed by millions by the manufactured slump in the pound agin the euro. Didn't people take a massive hit on pension pots during the 2009 slump or back in the 1990's? maybe we should ask the George Soros's for our money back?!
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As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.
The choice may be a ' May Brino '........or if parliament find a majority for the single market and customs union.......'Brino lite
Proper full fat brexit is dead in the water. :)
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As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.
Well said. It is ironic that we are now potentially heading for a no deal exit which no one countenanced. If we had had a committed leaver in charge of negotiations and he/she had said right we will leave on no deal unless we get a comprehensive deal including trade and divorce bill sorted out within 18 months, things would have been different including the market data and exchange rate. I watched Sophy Ridge this morning and the politicians still do not get it. How many more meaningful or indicative votes can they have on May's dead duck. It is all a self agrandsiment power struggle with the fate of the country a very distant consideration.
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As a remainer I would rather we remain, or leave with no deal.
Leaving without a ' proper brexit ' will create more problems than it will solve.
Theresa has often repeated the mantra brexit means brexit. Clearly this is not so.
Her other mantra ' no deal is better than a bad deal ' seems to be out of favour. :-X
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As one of our members eloquently put it...'We are f**ked'. But, I believe, we are f**ked because we cannot agree on what leaving entails. Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for. We can blame the idiots who voted leave, if we want to see it that way, but I blame the politicians for not implementing the will of the majority of the people, whether they agreed with it or not. That is, after all, their job.
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
Seems pretty clear cut.
Which does rather beg the question as to what our elected think they are playing at ???
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As a remainer I would rather we remain, or leave with no deal.
Leaving without a ' proper brexit ' will create more problems than it will solve.
Theresa has often repeated the mantra brexit means brexit. Clearly this is not so.
Her other mantra ' no deal is better than a bad deal ' seems to be out of favour. :-X
As a leaver I agree with this, although with the caveat that we shouldn't leave with Barniers Withdrawal Agreement & Political Declaration as it is truly dreadful.
I havn't read the whole 500 odd pages, but I cannot believe some of the things that May and her officials have signed up to. For example, it is there in black and white that it is the sole responsibility of the UK to find a solution to the Irish border and of course there is no onus on the EU to accept any solutions put forward. Anyone with half a brain can see that the EU will deliberately reject any solutions, good, bad or even brilliant, so that they can drive us up the cul de sac of the backstop, and there we will remain at the EU's pleasure so that they can carry on selling stuff into the UK without let or hindrance. ::)
The Political Declaration which apparently isn't legally binding, but will nevertheless form the basis of the future deal, provides for the extradition of people for political crimes and agrees to waive the principal of Double Criminality, which is a basic plank of international extradition law. For example, most countries will not extradite if the crime committed in the other country, is not a crime in the country the person is to be extradited from. So why have they agreed to waive it? ??? I find this rather sinister and wonder what they are planning in Brussels? :-X A raft of new laws prohibiting criticism of the EU or activating against it? :-\
We should all, Leave or Remain, be totally opposed to these sort of laws that will creep on to our Statute Book from the EU. >:(
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At least you can photograph or film a policeman in your country. Can't in Spain. Give it up you know how shy policeman are .
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As a remainer I would rather we remain, or leave with no deal.
Leaving without a ' proper brexit ' will create more problems than it will solve.
Theresa has often repeated the mantra brexit means brexit. Clearly this is not so.
Her other mantra ' no deal is better than a bad deal ' seems to be out of favour. :-X
As a leaver I agree with this, although with the caveat that we shouldn't leave with Barniers Withdrawal Agreement & Political Declaration as it is truly dreadful.
I havn't read the whole 500 odd pages, but I cannot believe some of the things that May and her officials have signed up to. For example, it is there in black and white that it is the sole responsibility of the UK to find a solution to the Irish border and of course there is no onus on the EU to accept any solutions put forward. Anyone with half a brain can see that the EU will deliberately reject any solutions, good, bad or even brilliant, so that they can drive us up the cul de sac of the backstop, and there we will remain at the EU's pleasure so that they can carry on selling stuff into the UK without let or hindrance. ::)
The Political Declaration which apparently isn't legally binding, but will nevertheless form the basis of the future deal, provides for the extradition of people for political crimes and agrees to waive the principal of Double Criminality, which is a basic plank of international extradition law. For example, most countries will not extradite if the crime committed in the other country, is not a crime in the country the person is to be extradited from. So why have they agreed to waive it? ??? I find this rather sinister and wonder what they are planning in Brussels? :-X A raft of new laws prohibiting criticism of the EU or activating against it? :-\
We should all, Leave or Remain, be totally opposed to these sort of laws that will creep on to our Statute Book from the EU. >:(
I believe this is all already in place as part of the European arrest warrant, which is something we should be getting ourselves out of rather than trying to stay attached to it.
Next phase of integration is the EU defence force, which they denied for years they were planning. That will eventually mean the British army, navy and Airforce being largely controlled by the Germans and the French.
Then a standardised health system across the EU. This will get rid of the NHS as we know it, and at the point the liberal lefties might just wake up and start complaining.
After that its an EU treasury, with centralised financial control, standardised taxation etc. etc.
By that point there will be one EU President, and the only debate left to have is do they change the name to the U.S.E or possibly the EUSSR.
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I think there will be a majority (for something) from the next round of indicative voting tomorrow.
But what do I know...... :-\
.......and even if there is will TM and the government respect that vote?
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In my crystal ball I see MV4........ :'(
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You cannot lay all of that at the leave door.
Well, the timings are amazingly suspicious.
A lot of the UK market slump has been manufactured directly by the remain establishment. Project Fear for one.
Do you realise quite how ridiculous that sounds :o.
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Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for.
If I'm honest, I think a significant propertion of leave votes, by the uninformed, voted leave under the misapprehension it would curb immigration. Certainly if the pub talk at the time was anything to go by. Also, I suspect some voted remain purely because the Guardian told them to. As said, the British public are thick. But anyways....
I think an issue was that with the referendum outcome almost being a draw, a compromise was probably a sensible tactic. Only the vocal contingent of either side was, and remains, unwilling to compromise. Ultimately, a compromise means nobody gets what they asked for, that rather than piss off around 50% of the electorate, you piss off 100%.
It has irreparably damaged our economy.
And now we have the worse of all outcomes, A50 extensions, which is more uncertainty.
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Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for.
If I'm honest, I think a significant propertion of leave votes, by the uninformed, voted leave under the misapprehension it would curb immigration. Certainly if the pub talk at the time was anything to go by. Also, I suspect some voted remain purely because the Guardian told them to. As said, the British public are thick. But anyways....
I think an issue was that with the referendum outcome almost being a draw, a compromise was probably a sensible tactic. Only the vocal contingent of either side was, and remains, unwilling to compromise. Ultimately, a compromise means nobody gets what they asked for, that rather than piss off around 50% of the electorate, you piss off 100%.
It has irreparably damaged our economy.
And now we have the worse of all outcomes, A50 extensions, which is more uncertainty.
There is no compromise. We are in or out. The ballot paper said leave, so leave it is. Even if we keep a tiny amount of EU legislation, or have a customs union or whatever....we are not 'out'.
I know this is now not going to happen, but it should have.
I just hope that this doesn't get dragged up for the next decade or so, but I think we all know it will.
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The Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU petition has now been signed by 6 million people. ;)
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The Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU petition has now been signed by 6 million people. ;)
And what difference does that make? We've voted already. If we don't leave, we don't live in a democracy. It really is that simple.
Anyone who says people voted this way or that because of this or that obviously doesn't know how a democracy works.
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Can't we remain in the EU for say another decade or so, and discuss the UK leaving over a nice cup of tea and a chocolate digestive?....... :) ;)
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The Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU petition has now been signed by 6 million people. ;)
And what difference does that make? We've voted already. If we don't leave, we don't live in a democracy. It really is that simple.
Anyone who says people voted this way or that because of this or that obviously doesn't know how a democracy works.
And yet Labour are increasingly aiming for a "Peoples Vote" ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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The Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU petition has now been signed by 6 million people. ;)
It has 6 million signatures. In the world of online petitions that is nothing like the same as 6 million people.
Even if it was 6 million people, they still need another 11.5 million for to have the right to get what they want. :)
Labour arent really aiming for anything. They are probably more divided than the Tories on the issue.
Corbyn is going round in circles, attempting to please the various factions of his party and its voters, while trying to attack the Tories, and hoping we still leave - all at the same time.
And still almost everyone is centring the whole debate around purely economic issues, because they are the ones that cant be proved or disproved until after we have left.
The remainers cant begin to win the other, and much more important aspects of the debate.
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Had the result of the referendum gone 52%/48% in favour of remaining in the EU, there would have been no attempt to appease the 48% or compromise to satisfy them. ::) Cameron and Osborne would have slapped each other on the back and collected their rewards from the establishment and our EU masters, Peerages and villas in sunny places etc and the whole idea would have been kicked into the long grass. ::)
For nearly 3 years now the re-mainstream media and establishment have been scratching around for reasons why people voted leave and they still don't get it! ::) They've talked about the 'left behind', immigration, Russian interference, Aaron Bank's money, Vote Leave's irregularities etc, but they still don't understand that this is simply just a matter of how we are governed. ;)
When David Cameron announced that an in/out referendum was to be held, my first thought was that we would be leaving the EU. :y In fact the only surprise in the result for me was that the result was so close, as I expected it to be at least 60% in favour of leaving. I don't believe that most people voted leave because of what was written on the bus, or because they wanted all the furriners kicked out, it was just a deep seated unease across society that power was slipping away from our democratic system and into the hands of the unelected and unaccountable. I think it's as simple as that and the reason that the result was so close was that the Remain campaign was more successful at converting Leavers than vice versa. Large swathes of the middle classes voted remain because of their jobs, investments, pensions and house prices and were persuaded by the prophets of doom, gloom and disaster. There was no positive vision of staying in the EU, just promises of riding off to hell in a handcart. ::)
I have friends who were always Eurosceptic, but when push came to shove voted remain because of these reasons. A position that personally I find pretty shortsighted, as the direction of travel is only going to be one way. Brussels way! Which I don't think is in the long term interest for the UK in a fast changing world, where already we do more of our international trade outside of the EU, but let the EU control our international trade policy. Where around 10% of the UK's GDP is generated by our trade with the EU, but we organise our entire economy to facilitate that small percentage. Where membership at some point of the disastrous Euro is inevitable..... ::) And that's just for starters.... :)
But that's just my opinion as a stupid, thick, uneducated and bigoted, leave voter and supporter! :)
PS I've been called all those things! :(
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I don't think you are a thick brexiteer, Sir Tig .
You can't own a Marina coupe and be stupid..... :D
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Had the result of the referendum gone 52%/48% in favour of remaining in the EU, there would have been no attempt to appease the 48% or compromise to satisfy them. ::) Cameron and Osborne would have slapped each other on the back and collected their rewards from the establishment and our EU masters, Peerages and villas in sunny places etc and the whole idea would have been kicked into the long grass. ::)
For nearly 3 years now the re-mainstream media and establishment have been scratching around for reasons why people voted leave and they still don't get it! ::) They've talked about the 'left behind', immigration, Russian interference, Aaron Bank's money, Vote Leave's irregularities etc, but they still don't understand that this is simply just a matter of how we are governed. ;)
When David Cameron announced that an in/out referendum was to be held, my first thought was that we would be leaving the EU. :y In fact the only surprise in the result for me was that the result was so close, as I expected it to be at least 60% in favour of leaving. I don't believe that most people voted leave because of what was written on the bus, or because they wanted all the furriners kicked out, it was just a deep seated unease across society that power was slipping away from our democratic system and into the hands of the unelected and unaccountable. I think it's as simple as that and the reason that the result was so close was that the Remain campaign was more successful at converting Leavers than vice versa. Large swathes of the middle classes voted remain because of their jobs, investments, pensions and house prices and were persuaded by the prophets of doom, gloom and disaster. There was no positive vision of staying in the EU, just promises of riding off to hell in a handcart. ::)
I have friends who were always Eurosceptic, but when push came to shove voted remain because of these reasons. A position that personally I find pretty shortsighted, as the direction of travel is only going to be one way. Brussels way! Which I don't think is in the long term interest for the UK in a fast changing world, where already we do more of our international trade outside of the EU, but let the EU control our international trade policy. Where around 10% of the UK's GDP is generated by our trade with the EU, but we organise our entire economy to facilitate that small percentage. Where membership at some point of the disastrous Euro is inevitable..... ::) And that's just for starters.... :)
But that's just my opinion as a stupid, thick, uneducated and bigoted, leave voter and supporter! :)
PS I've been called all those things! :(
Well that has just saved me 30 minutes typing because it is EXACTLY what I was going to say .
Thank you Sir Tigger .
I might use that elsewhere and risk your wrath and a summons for plagiarism........
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I don't think you are a thick brexiteer, Sir Tig .
You can't own a Marina coupe and be stupid..... :D
Thank you M'lud! :y
Marina ownership was a family thing at the time as my Dad had a Marina pickup in British Racing Green! :y
When all my mates had hatchbacks, Fiat 127's, Fiesta's, Metro's and R5's, my Marina was a proper car! :y
Not quite a Capri though, but only trumped by another mate who had a nice Saab 99 at the time, which was a tank of a thing. He stacked it into a hedge and it emerged unscathed! ;D
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Well that has just saved me 30 minutes typing because it is EXACTLY what I was going to say .
Thank you Sir Tigger .
I might use that elsewhere and risk your wrath and a summons for plagiarism........
Feel free Don! :y
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Stay or fully leave were the only two alternatives that could have worked, and I think that's what the public were under the impression they were voting for.
If I'm honest, I think a significant propertion of leave votes, by the uninformed, voted leave under the misapprehension it would curb immigration. Certainly if the pub talk at the time was anything to go by. Also, I suspect some voted remain purely because the Guardian told them to. As said, the British public are thick. But anyways....
I think an issue was that with the referendum outcome almost being a draw, a compromise was probably a sensible tactic. Only the vocal contingent of either side was, and remains, unwilling to compromise. Ultimately, a compromise means nobody gets what they asked for, that rather than piss off around 50% of the electorate, you piss off 100%.
It has irreparably damaged our economy.
And now we have the worse of all outcomes, A50 extensions, which is more uncertainty.
All the negativity makes for a self fulfilling prophecy... If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.
As for the reasons why people voted, the question was a very straightforward one, and wasn't even slightly loaded.
Had there been zero campaigning for either side, I strongly believe that the result would have been at least the same, possibly greater for leaving.
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I don't think you are a thick brexiteer, Sir Tig .
You can't own a Marina coupe and be stupid..... :D
Thank you M'lud! :y
Marina ownership was a family thing at the time as my Dad had a Marina pickup in British Racing Green! :y
When all my mates had hatchbacks, Fiat 127's, Fiesta's, Metro's and R5's, my Marina was a proper car! :y
Not quite a Capri though, but only trumped by another mate who had a nice Saab 99 at the time, which was a tank of a thing. He stacked it into a hedge and it emerged unscathed! ;D
My youngest is visiting for a few days, he lives in Northumberland. A old friend of his called in this evening and he had driven up in his "summer car" which is a Marina Coupe. :D My God, that car gets cosseted.
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Had a good day out on Friday in Parliament Square at the Leave Means Leave protest. Hot, sunny, spring day where the sun shines on the righteous. :y :y :y
All very good natured with good speeches on the Leave Means Leave stage in Parliament Square for several Leave MPs including Kate Hoey, Marcus French etc. along with Tim Martin & Nigel Farage. UKIP had a stage in a side area where loud music was coming from so I walked across & saw Tommy Robinson on stage setting up to speak, but I left to go back to Parliament Square so I don't know who spoke or what they said as I was there for Leave Means Leave.
Jon Snow racist comment made me laugh with his racist identity politics, where from mid-afternoon onwards I was talking to a delightful, bright, articulate, interesting young Chinese London girl, Hayley, who was born in the UK from Hong Kong parents & was standing next to me. There was also an african guy with a UK-Africa fair/free trade banner who was well received with hand claps, cheers & positive comments on his post-Brexit win-win UK-Africa free trade message.
All in all a carnival atmosphere with an obvious but low very professional police presence, who acted swiftly when known EU remainer PITA Steve who decided to pick on a guy dressed in his Union Jack suit & glasses that made the national press.
I left just after 5:30 as it was starting to get dark, so I don't know what happened after that.
It taught me much about the current political mood, by talking a bit & listening a lot, which I will follow up on in a new thread.
PS: Where I've just updated my 12yo Nikon D90 DSLR camera to a new D7500 it gave me the chance to try this out including the 4k video. I had delivered a 2nd 70-300mm lens on Saturday & will get a GPS module from Hong Kong this week & an 8mm 180 degree fisheye lens from the US. Looking forward to getting up to speed on all of this over the next few weeks. :y :y :y I found the tilt screen LCD really useful on Friday where I could view this while holing the camera above the crowd.
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Had there been zero campaigning for either side, I strongly believe that the result would have been at least the same, possibly greater for leaving.
I doubt it, as take the BBC, for example, a supposedly Remain Friendly media outlet according to an old quote in the old style Daily Mail (although my beeb contacts suggest most of their political editors are actually Leavers). For the leave coverage, they were always ensuring the bus was in the background. For the remain, it was mostly all non descript.
And the thick British public will just vote according to what paper they read or what channel they watch.
Also, remember at the time, the beeb TV news and the Daily Fail were daily pushing stories about migrants crossing the Med... ...the numbers haven't changed, but it only hit the headlines again when Brexit looked less likely...
So the media does manipulate media more than you may think, and far more than "the establishment" that is so evil does.
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That's my point...
If it had simply been:
Referendum... Should the UK remain in the EU or leave the EU, on June 23rd 2016.
Here's your polling card.
And none of the propaganda/hype/downright lies/media excitement etc.
Between the media and both sides of the political posturing, it's no wonder no one knows what's going on.
Without any of that people could have voted without prejudice or bias and almost certainly produced a more decisive result.
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Not only is she going to ask for a further extension, but she is going to ask Corbyn to help her come up with a plan.
Wtf did the U.K. do to deserve this waste of fresh air for a P.M. ?? >:( >:( >:(
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Not only is she going to ask for a further extension, but she is going to ask Corbyn to help her come up with a plan.
Wtf did the U.K. do to deserve this waste of fresh air for a P.M. ?? >:( >:( >:(
Voted her in?
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Voted "NOT in accordance with" what the politicians wanted / expected the UK to vote :-[
so now the politicians are playing tit for tat
that'l learn us for voting :(
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Not only is she going to ask for a further extension, but she is going to ask Corbyn to help her come up with a plan.
Wtf did the U.K. do to deserve this waste of fresh air for a P.M. ?? >:( >:( >:(
Voted her in?
Not really. She doesn't have a majority. I will never understand why the Tory MP,s didn't get rid of hrr a few months ago, when they had the chance.
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Not only is she going to ask for a further extension, but she is going to ask Corbyn to help her come up with a plan.
Wtf did the U.K. do to deserve this waste of fresh air for a P.M. ?? >:( >:( >:(
Voted her in?
Not really. She doesn't have a majority. I will never understand why the Tory MP,s didn't get rid of hrr a few months ago, when they had the chance.
Trying to avoid a management change mid chaos ;D
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Would anyone else have been able to achieve anything different? I don't think so especially from the point they could have got rid of her.
I think they are all biding their time for a better scenario. Maybe Steve Baker would be OK.
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Would anyone else have been able to achieve anything different? I don't think so especially from the point they could have got rid of her.
I think this about sums it up. Other than I would go a stage further and say nobody would have got a significantly better deal. Its a tough game when you hold no aces.
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Would anyone else have been able to achieve anything different? I don't think so especially from the point they could have got rid of her.
I think this about sums it up. Other than I would go a stage further and say nobody would have got a significantly better deal. Its a tough game when you hold no aces.
Surely the plan was that the UK held the whip hand and the EU 27 would fall into line if they wanted to continue selling their BMW and Mercedes.
.......just like in the old days of imperialism. ::)
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Hmm strong rumour the 1922 committee is meeting today, these guys have the power to remove her,let us hope so!
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Hmm strong rumour the 1922 committee is meeting today, these guys have the power to remove her,let us hope so!
Ignoring that I think she's hopeless, what would it achieve? Diddly squat. In fact the extra uncertainty that would produce would cock it all up even more :(
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Hmm strong rumour the 1922 committee is meeting today, these guys have the power to remove her,let us hope so!
They failed to get rid of her back in December and can't have another go until December this year. I bet there are a few Tory MP's now regretting voting for her. ;)
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Hmm strong rumour the 1922 committee is meeting today, these guys have the power to remove her,let us hope so!
They'll have the same problem as the last vote of no confidence: the tories have so comprehensively oppsed up Brexit from well before the referendum that there isn't a solution that will keep the party together. So no one, no matter how ambitious they might be is stupid enough to take on the job of Conservative leader. This is also the reason why the Labour party didn't campaign for a general election(the only way they could get rid of May as PM) or another referendum: winning either would dump the whole clusteropps into their lap.
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There is a long list of Tories who are desperate to get her job as soon as they can prise her out of No. 10.*
Labour are constantly campaigning for a general election and a second referendum. **::)
You need to watch the news more often Nick. :-X
* Boris, Gove Truss, Rudd, Corporal Pike, Hunt, Javid, Leadsom, Im sure Ive missed a few.
** I don't think Corbyn actually means it. He would rather the Tories got us out with "a hard Brexit", then he gets the keys to number 10.
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There is a long list of Tories who are desperate to get her job as soon as they can prise her out of No. 10.*
Labour are constantly campaigning for a general election and a second referendum. ** ::)
You need to watch the news more often Nick. :-X
* Boris, Gove Truss, Rudd, Corporal Pike, Hunt, Javid, Leadsom, Im sure Ive missed a few.
** I don't think Corbyn actually means it. He would rather the Tories got us out with "a hard Brexit", then he gets the keys to number 10.
but each time there's a real opportunity for any of those long list to make a stand and depose her, they remember that it's like being handed a lit stick of dynamite with both hands tied behind your back. In the dark, while your colleagues film it for posterity.
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Parliament have now voted-by a majority of 1 to force TM to ask for a further extension.Given the news that the German economy is not doing so well as expected at present this is likely to be granted as the EU will need our money.
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Sorry to hear the EU are likely to need our money. How about this as a solution....
Britain leaves the EU but stays in the customs union, free movement of people and bound by their rules. Pay a 39 billion divorce bill and keep making the ( still not known how much ) contributions lets say 10 billion a year but receive no pesky EU grants for infrastructure projects.
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Sorry to hear the EU are likely to need our money. How about this as a solution....
Britain leaves the EU but stays in the customs union, free movement of people and bound by their rules. Pay a 39 billion divorce bill and keep making the ( still not known how much ) contributions lets say 10 billion a year but receive no pesky EU grants for infrastructure projects.
Yes that should keep the stupid British volk quiet. :y
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Sorry to hear the EU are likely to need our money. How about this as a solution....
Britain leaves the EU but stays in the customs union, free movement of people and bound by their rules. Pay a 39 billion divorce bill and keep making the ( still not known how much ) contributions lets say 10 billion a year but receive no pesky EU grants for infrastructure projects.
Yes that should keep the stupid British volk quiet. :y
What about the not so stupid ones ::)
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Here's what the German leader really makes of it all , NWS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-1gWw0beww
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Several off the cuff polls I've seen are ~80% UKIP/Brexit party, 9% Cons, 7% Lab, 4% Libdems. A Euro parliament full of UKIP/Brexit, Afd, Le Pan & other right wing parties will considerably change their dynamic. :-X
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Sorry to hear the EU are likely to need our money. How about this as a solution....
Britain leaves the EU but stays in the customs union, free movement of people and bound by their rules. Pay a 39 billion divorce bill and keep making the ( still not known how much ) contributions lets say 10 billion a year but receive no pesky EU grants for infrastructure projects.
Yes that should keep the stupid British volk quiet. :y
What about the not so stupid ones ::)
Oh they're all stupid. Didn't you hear? ::) ;D
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Must have missed that memo ;D
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Several off the cuff polls I've seen are ~80% UKIP/Brexit party, 9% Cons, 7% Lab, 4% Libdems. A Euro parliament full of UKIP/Brexit, Afd, Le Pan & other right wing parties will considerably change their dynamic. :-X
Newport West by-election today and UKIP's candidate is....... Neil Hamilton! ;D
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There's a documentary in there somewhere ;D
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Several off the cuff polls I've seen are ~80% UKIP/Brexit party, 9% Cons, 7% Lab, 4% Libdems. A Euro parliament full of UKIP/Brexit, Afd, Le Pan & other right wing parties will considerably change their dynamic if the European parliament actually made any of the important decisions. :-X
FTFY ;)
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Several off the cuff polls I've seen are ~80% UKIP/Brexit party, 9% Cons, 7% Lab, 4% Libdems. A Euro parliament full of UKIP/Brexit, Afd, Le Pan & other right wing parties will considerably change their dynamic if the European parliament actually made any of the important decisions. :-X
FTFY ;)
Yes are they allowed to change the colour of their rubber stamps without the Commission's permission? :-\ ;D
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Several off the cuff polls I've seen are ~80% UKIP/Brexit party, 9% Cons, 7% Lab, 4% Libdems. A Euro parliament full of UKIP/Brexit, Afd, Le Pan & other right wing parties will considerably change their dynamic if the European parliament actually made any of the important decisions. :-X
FTFY ;)
Fixed again. :y ;D
To my knowledge they have never voted against the submissions sent to them by the (unelected) Commission. It isn't any more a Parliament than the Politburu was.
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While we are waiting for something to happen , I thought you might like this that I was sent.
Oxford University researchers have discovered the densest element yet known to science.
The new element, Governmentium (symbol=Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.
These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called pillocks.
Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact.
A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.
Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2 to 6 years. It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganisation in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places. In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganisation will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.
This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as a critical morass.
When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium (symbol=Ad), an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium, since it has half as many pillocks but twice as many morons.
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Utterly brilliant.....if only it weren't so very close to the truth!
Ron.
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Utterly brilliant.....if only it weren't so very close to the truth!
Ron.
One way or tother, we voted for them... :-[
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I didn't. ;)
Just heard Portillo make a very interesting (and terrifying) point. If Corbyn has any sense he will do some kind of deal with May, and then sit back and watch the Tory party destroy itself. He will then have a free ride into number 10.
Alternatively, in the unlikely event that she and her advisors have any sense they will take a collection of Corbyns ideas to Brussels and get them rejected. Then show him up for the idiot he is.
Cant see that one happening though.
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MEPs do occasionally vote laws down, so it goes back to the commission, who fix the typos, so couple of l's are changed to i's, a couple more l's are changed to t's. The jobs a good one so the MEPs rubber stamp it with their pseudo democracy. All dictatorships like meaningless votes as it gives them legitimacy as they pretend they are playing the same game as real democracies. It can get a bit more difficult when it comes to divvying out quotas for food & fish, but they do have well established procedures to resolve this. France, Spain & Belgium along with a few other countries demand a redivvy of the quotas, so they cut 10% from the UK, so it will hopefully pass & if it doesn't they cut another 10% from the UK quota do a redivvy & it passes. The UK is kept sweet by being allowed to pay a disproportionate amount of the R&D costs for their latest defence system boondoggle. Once about 80% of the design costs & development money has been spent, the French throw their toys out of their pram, say it doesn't do what they need & produce a similar design with about 80% commonality which will be made exclusively in France and exported as a rival system.
They invented a new trick of the trade for their new copyright directive, which was expected to be heavily defeated, silly officials swapped over wthe question meaning by 'mistake' for the for & against buttons & were 'surprised' when it passed. When MEPs complained & asked for a revote they said it wasn't necessary as it passed & everybody must have realised that the implied buttons had been swapped from normal convention. I've seen many cheating left wing tactics to get things passed but this is a new one.
The problem with the erosion of accountability & trashing of constitutional safeguards is that one offs become normal usage to 'solve' problems, which kill democratic procedures & accountability. May & her cahoots trashing our unwritten constitution & votes meaning anything is going to have long term bad implications for this country.
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Hmm strong rumour the 1922 committee is meeting today, these guys have the power to remove her,let us hope so!
They'll have the same problem as the last vote of no confidence: the tories have so comprehensively oppsed up Brexit from well before the referendum that there isn't a solution that will keep the party together. So no one, no matter how ambitious they might be is stupid enough to take on the job of Conservative leader. This is also the reason why the Labour party didn't campaign for a general election(the only way they could get rid of May as PM) or another referendum: winning either would dump the whole clusteropps into their lap.
And remember it was differences over Europe that helps end the last Tory rein in the 90s...
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Both of them actually. Thatcher for all the wrong reasons, and Major for all the right reasons. :)
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Looking at this thread, and all the others expressing individual feelings and observations on 'B' , which will have no effect at all on the outcome, I just wish I could get a pound for every word stated. I would be a millionairess many times over!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Good point. Taking the thought a step further. Think how much it has cost financially and in lost productivity in the workplace! We have David Cameron to thank for it or the federalists behind the EU.
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Good point. Taking the thought a step further. Think how much it has cost financially and in lost productivity in the workplace! We have David Cameron to thank for it or the federalists behind the EU.
Then Varche all the costs of extra administration and general resources at central and local government level, plus all the road works and distribution of signs down here in the South East in readiness for no 'B' or any 'B' deal, with the new contraflow system on the M20 and preparations at the old Manston airfield. Locally in South Ashford we even have "clearway" signs that have been put up around our roads to allow for diversions of HGV Channel traffic. All cost, cost, and more bloody cost that WE the taxpayers will be paying for!!! >:(
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It has all gone suspiciously quiet.
I wonder what odds the bookies are offering on May Revoking Article 50.....
Barnier said today that leave with no deal and... no talks on trade until the withdawal agreement is ratified, citizens rights are sorted and divorce payment made. The EU has played a blinder.
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I don't do Faceache however this was posted elsewhere .... ;D
Know idea why but it defaults to no sound :-\
https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/555646384841922/
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She's telling it like it is at last.
Oh, wait! Sound, you say... ::)
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I wonder what odds the bookies are offering on May Revoking Article 50.....
Very low: https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/brexit/article-50-to-be-revoked
And bookies don't often like to be wrong..
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I wonder what odds the bookies are offering on May Revoking Article 50.....
Very low: https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/brexit/article-50-to-be-revoked
And bookies don't often like to be wrong..
They were offering 10/1 against a leave vote the day before.
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Oh, well, colour me surprised:
"After five hours of talks at a summit in Brussels, the UK and the EU have agreed a "flexible extension" of Brexit until 31 October."
I wonder if "flexible" can be read as "indefinite" and "Brexit" can be read as "never leaving"
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So a break from Brexit until about the 28th October and then back into headless chicken vote and re-vote mode. ::)
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Oh, well, colour me surprised:
"After five hours of talks at a summit in Brussels, the UK and the EU have agreed a "flexible extension" of Brexit until 31 October."
I wonder if "flexible" can be read as "indefinite" and "Brexit" can be read as "never leaving"
No.....it's just the UK taking back control and giving these dark foreign johnnies a bloody nose.
They won't mess with us again. :)
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FFS >:( The useless cants have had two years to get their shit together.
Hopefully the main parties losing all their seats in the local elections will give them the kick up the arse that they so desperately require.
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Trick or Treat?
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Hopefully the main parties losing all their seats in the local elections ..
They won't, though. I'd even stick a fiver on it. They might lose a few, but nothing worth worrying themselves over.
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Hopefully the main parties losing all their seats in the local elections ..
They won't, though. I'd even stick a fiver on it. They might lose a few, but nothing worth worrying themselves over.
Sadly you're probably right, not that it shouldn't happen though. :-\
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:( Just face it , we aint leaving :(
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:( Just face it , we aint leaving :(
Me and Uncle Stemo left already on March 29th
just do it , you'll feel much better
plus side ,your not allowed to buy salad :y
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Trick or Treat?
and theres me thinking the EU didnt have a sense of humor
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:( Just face it , we aint leaving :(
Me and Uncle Stemo left already on March 29th
just do it , you'll feel much better
plus side ,your not allowed to buy salad :y
Nor MacDonalds, Irish beef.
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:( Just face it , we aint leaving :(
Me and Uncle Stemo left already on March 29th
just do it , you'll feel much better
plus side ,your not allowed to buy salad :y
Nor MacDonalds, Irish beef.
no great loss there ::)
i'm hungry about 2 hours after a XL big mac meal anyway :(
I prefer a nice healthy lorry driver's full English :)
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:( Just face it , we aint leaving :(
Me and Uncle Stemo left already on March 29th
just do it , you'll feel much better
plus side ,your not allowed to buy salad :y
Nor MacDonalds, Irish beef.
No loss .
I had a Big Muc the other evening on way back from hospital and it was awful. Don't know what they've done to it but it was nothing like I remember them .
And the restaurant was transformed into a pre pubescent teenagers heaven with hard seats, white LED lighting and touch screens everywhere . >:(