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[Sir Tigger KC]

2008 Ford Mondeo TDCi Titanium X Hatch.

I've fitted a new starter motor, but it doesn't appear to be engaging with the flywheel and when I press the start button all I get is the whirring sound of the starter motor spinning.   

Any ideas chaps?     Before it goes on Ebay 'spares or repairs'! 

[dave the builder]

Loosen the bolts, push the bendix sideways as close to the ring gear as possible before retightening 
did you bench test the starter before fitting ?
did you use any lube 

[STEMO]

Loosen the bolts, push the bendix sideways as close to the ring gear as possible before retightening 
did you bench test the starter before fitting ?
did you use any lube 

No, the new motor was quite reasonable 

[Sir Tigger KC]

No I didn't bench test it.  I haven't got a bench! 

Lube... You mean did I grease the cog? 

To be honest after a long struggle, I was so pleased to get the bastard out that all I could think about was getting the thing back together ASAP! 

[dave the builder]

Lube... You mean did I grease the cog? 

you NEED to put some lube on the shaft 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Lube... You mean did I grease the cog? 

you NEED to put some lube on the shaft 

Ah fk it...   

If I'd done a step by step thread of this job it would have made Lord Opti feel much better about his piffling fuel pump job and I couldn't have that! 

It's been a complete PITA, and when I finally got it all back together, but the result was Whirrrrr! the air was BLUE!!    

My neighbours were probably reminded of the Omega days! 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

There may be an excellent Corsa for sale soon.

Every cloud......

[Andy B]

Loosen the bolts, push the bendix sideways as close to the ring gear as possible before retightening 
did you bench test the starter before fitting ?
did you use any lube 

Bendix? They're going back a bit  Starters are all pre-engaged these days 
Solenoid engages .... which makes the circuit for the actual starter

(I know you know that Dave  )

[Andy B]

There may be an excellent Corsa for sale soon.

 .....

will it come with a spare fuel pump? 

[dave the builder]

There may be an excellent Corsa for sale soon.

Every cloud......

Just watch out for the poorly maintained ones ,cobbled together for a quick sale with chinese cheap parts 

[Doctor Gollum]

It does still have the ring gear?

If that's come adrift, even slightly, it will never engage...

[dave the builder]

If I'd done a step by step thread of this job it would have made Lord Opti feel much better about his piffling fuel pump job and I couldn't have that! 

Opti's got about half a dozen 10 page threads about that complicated 10 minute fuel pump job so far 
I've rebuilt a complete engine in less time 

It does still have the ring gear?

worth checking I guess
better done when it was apart in the first place 

but I've never come across a loose ring gear in the 30+ years of spannering
and i used to work on plant and farm equipment quite a lot when i was younger

[Doctor Gollum]

It is a diseasal Mundeo though, so bo laxxed flywheels are a thing

[dave the builder]

It is a diseasal Mundeo though, so bo laxxed flywheels are a thing

ah , OK

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Sir Tigger......what will you replace it with if it's f*ucked beyond reasonable financial repair?

[Nick W]

It is a diseasal Mundeo though, so bo laxxed flywheels are a thing

And knackered starters are one of the symptoms.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Well when I eventually got the old one out....      .... the bastard thing!                                                       

I did have a good look at the flywheel best I could and couldn't see any damage. There were no metal filings or swarf type stuff, and the cog on the old starter was intact. I don't really know what to look for though. 

This was one of those jobs that looked easy enough on a YouTube video.. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Do you recall seeing the teeth on the flywheel circumference?

[Marks DTM Calib]

The flywheel on the Mondeo does not suffer a failed ring gear, the starters go because the DMF sheds bits of metal which get into the starter motor (attracted to the magnetic field) and jam them up.

I assume this is a new starter and not a second hand one which might have come from a car with a goosed DMF?

Your only option is to remove and check it over, the fact its spinning suggests the drive dog is being pushed fully out or the high current contacts would not mate. I assume its correctly fitted and fully home in the machined opening and not sat on a lip?

[Sir Tigger KC]

Yes DG the teeth that I could see on the flywheel all looked intact and in good condition and there was no sign of metal filings or swarf anywhere. 

It's a new starter and yes it's possible it's not sat in the housing properly.  I'll check later and report back. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

So I lost more skin off my knuckles and my swear jar is a little fuller after wrestling the new starter out this afternoon.   

Giving birth must be easier than removing/fitting a starter motor on a 2.2 TDCi Mondeo.     

Anyhoo, I'm sure it was fitted OK, there is no sign of swarf or metal filings on or around the flywheel or the old starter, and all the teeth that I could see on the flywheel were intact and are in good condition. 

I bench tested* both starters with a set of jump leads and an old battery and on both, the cog (Bendix?) moves out.  I assume this action is the starter engaging with the flywheel. I couldn't get either motor to spin however, but then I don't really know what I'm doing....     

That's as far as I've got and I might let some skin grow back before I refit the bleddy thing! 

* More accurately - garden waste bin tested.

[Kevin Wood]

Might be worth checking that the throw on the starter pinion is the same on both starters. It's not impossible they've sold you the wrong starter and the pinion isn't long enough to reach the ring gear.

[cam.in.head]

if you clamp the body / casing to your negative jump lead and
clamp your positive to the big empty terminal on the solenoid thats now wired as it sits in the car. then just use a thin lead to apply positive to the solenoid small terminal.
bendix should pull up and motor should turn.
 
if motor doesnt turn then solenoid is faulty.   Or    try positive wire direct to the other side of solenoid( thick wire entering into starter motor)
if it still doesnt run motor itself is faulty.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Following cam.in.head's advice above, both the old and the new starter motors work.  The bendix moves out and the motor spins perfectly on both, and both operate identically. 

To recap, the old starter had the classic symptoms of a stuck starter.  Press the start button and all I'd get was a clunk. For a while the old trick of giving it a whack with a hammer worked, but no more.  When I fitted the new starter and pressed the start button, the starter motor ran but wasn't turning the engine.  I assume that the cog/bendix wasn't moving into position to engage with the flywheel.

Could it be as simple as the electrical connectors to the starter needing a good clean?  Especially the one to the solenoid?   

Many thanks to cam.in.head for the advice! 

[countrywoman]

It could be what they call dog ending, pinion hitting ring gear but not sliding between teeth, have you tried turning engine by hand/pushing it gear?

[cam.in.head]

sometimes they can work on the bench but may not have worked on the car. you may have disturbed a bad connection BUT for 2 starters to have identical symptoms does sound suspect .i would try to measure the distance that the cog moves out to when running and see if there are any alignment issues. and it is worth turning the engine slowly and carefully examining all the flywheel ring teeth just to be sure ,looking for any obvious damage or places where the cog may have hit the gear rather than engaged it .( as countrywwoman said)
with the car back together. does the car start and work perfectly after a bump start. no clutch or gearchange issues.?

[Kevin Wood]

There's normally a freewheel at the pinion end that allows the pinion to freewheel when the engine fires.

It's not impossible that this is faulty and "giving" in both directions. That would cause your symptoms. You might be able to verify this by hand.

Normally the solenoid has to extend to the full length of its throw before the contacts that energise the motor make.

Another thing to check is that on some Fords I've seen several sets of mounting holes for different styles of starter. Is there any room for adjustment of its position?

[Doctor Gollum]

Thst reminds me...

It is a starter for a manual?

Had one fail on a 2.0 Mk3 Granada. Bought a reman one from Sovereign only to find it wouldn't fit. Swapping the solenoid onto the old one fixed it.

Is the solenoid integral or bolted on? May be possible to 'fix' the original starter

[Kevin Wood]

May be possible to 'fix' the original starter

Good point. Dismantle it and clean up the contacts in the solenoid and it'll probably go for long enough to get it sold, given the symptoms.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Countrywoman: No I haven't tried turning the engine by hand, but I did try the old trick of rocking it in gear before I bought the new starter, but it still didn't work.

cam.in.head: The two starters have different symptoms when fitted. The old starter was 'stuck' and the new starter whirred over but didn't engage with the flywheel.  Both operated exactly the same when tested on the 'bench'. Unfortunately where I parked up the last time it was running makes it difficult even to rock the car in gear and there's no chance of bumping it. 

Kevin: No there's only 3 bolt holes and the two starters are identical.  On both starters I can 'freewheel' the pinion with my thumb in one direction but not the other. The only difference is that with the old one I can push the pinion out as far as it will go on it's shaft with my thumb, but needed assistance from a screwdriver on the new one. I guess this is just a new spring verses an old one.

DG: It's a manual, but the new starter fits and is identical to the old one.  The solenoid is bolted on, so yes I guess with a bit of soldering I could fit the new solenoid to the old starter, but as both of them appear to work on the 'bench'.... ?

[Doctor Gollum]

My Granada ones looked identical, and whilst I cannot point to their differences, I do know that the old one fitted correctly and the new one didn't.

I only mention it to give you summat to consider 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Thanks! 

It would help if I knew what I was doing....    I'm OK when it come to replacing parts but when things get a bit more involved.... 

[Doctor Gollum]

It's only three bolts. What could possibly... Oh wait

[Sir Tigger KC]

It's only three bolts. What could possibly... Oh wait

Exactly!                                                                                         

[dave the builder]

The only difference is that with the old one I can push the pinion out as far as it will go on it's shaft with my thumb, but needed assistance from a screwdriver on the new one. I guess this is just a new spring verses an old one.

that may be the problem
the new starter is not throwing out the cog enough if it takes a screwdriver
does it travel all the way when power is applied ? wheely bin testing 
I did say "lube your shaft" a while back 
also, is the battery fully charged ,given the extra push needed to throw out the cog AND spin the engine 

[cam.in.head]

just to be sure then.
the old starter used to work so is the correct model etc.
double check everything.           do the gearcogs look identical .(same length,diameter,teeth number and angle)do they sit in the same position now and move to the same position when energised.   silly suggestion but do they turn the same rotation ? ( new one could be wrong internally)   . try to measure where the cog will move to when its on the car and see if the tooth on the ringgear look to measure up ?
just a few ideas.

obtain another " known working" starter motor !

[Sir Tigger KC]

Well I think I've solved the conundrum... 

On closer examination the pinion cog is slightly larger (2-3mm diameter) and has an extra tooth than the original, and looking at the outer face of the cog there are shiny marks where it butted up and span against the flywheel.  The flywheel has corresponding marks as well. 

So not quite as identical as I thought....     

[STEMO]

Well I think I've solved the conundrum... 

On closer examination the pinion cog is slightly larger (2-3mm diameter) and has an extra tooth than the original, and looking at the outer face of the cog there are shiny marks where it butted up and span against the flywheel.  The flywheel has corresponding marks as well. 

So not quite as identical as I thought.... 

Shit! Did you say it was a brand new starter? That won't have been cheap 

[Nick W]

Well I think I've solved the conundrum... 

On closer examination the pinion cog is slightly larger (2-3mm diameter) and has an extra tooth than the original, and looking at the outer face of the cog there are shiny marks where it butted up and span against the flywheel.  The flywheel has corresponding marks as well. 

So not quite as identical as I thought.... 

Return it.


At least you haven't already given the original, correctly fitting one in exchange

[Sir Tigger KC]

It was £65 from Ebay....        and I've emailed the supplier for refund. 

Luckily I did double check with them that it was the correct part before purchasing, gave them the reg number, and they told me it was the correct part.  So if they dick me about I'll go direct to Ebay. 

What to do next though?  As the old one seems to work OK on the 'bench' I'm tempted to clean and lube it, and give it another try. 

Although I did notice earlier when I was testing them both, that the new one seems to have a lot more Ooomph!  So I wonder if the old one is just tired and hasn't the power to turn the engine any more. 

[Raeturbo]

If you’re going to clean and lube it why not get a set of brushes for it at the same time, job done then

[Sir Tigger KC]

If you’re going to clean and lube it why not get a set of brushes for it at the same time, job done then

Oh hell now you're getting technical Rae!     

[STEMO]

If you’re going to clean and lube it why not get a set of brushes for it at the same time, job done then

Oh hell now you're getting technical Rae!     

Next time you test it on the bin, open the lid first. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

If you’re going to clean and lube it why not get a set of brushes for it at the same time, job done then

Oh hell now you're getting technical Rae!     

Next time you test it on the bin, open the lid first. 

If the car fitted in the bin.... 

Probably not classed as 'Green Waste' though....     

[Sir Tigger KC]

If you’re going to clean and lube it why not get a set of brushes for it at the same time, job done then

Oh hell now you're getting technical Rae!     

Although it looks easy enough on YouTube!                                                                                                             

[Nick W]

What to do next though?  As the old one seems to work OK on the 'bench' I'm tempted to clean and lube it, and give it another try. 

Although I did notice earlier when I was testing them both, that the new one seems to have a lot more Ooomph!  So I wonder if the old one is just tired and hasn't the power to turn the engine any more. 

Is there anywhere local that still rebuilds starters and alternators? They're not as common as they used to be; the firm I used for thirty years shut recently. They did all sorts of work for boats, industrial motors etc, and could recognise what car a motor was from just by looking at the nasty oily scrap plonked on the counter. Cost considerably less than being rebuilds from middle men too.

[STEMO]

If you’re going to clean and lube it why not get a set of brushes for it at the same time, job done then

Oh hell now you're getting technical Rae!     

Although it looks easy enough on YouTube!                                                                                                             

Just do it. What's to lose?

[Sir Tigger KC]

What to do next though?  As the old one seems to work OK on the 'bench' I'm tempted to clean and lube it, and give it another try. 

Although I did notice earlier when I was testing them both, that the new one seems to have a lot more Ooomph!  So I wonder if the old one is just tired and hasn't the power to turn the engine any more. 

Is there anywhere local that still rebuilds starters and alternators? They're not as common as they used to be; the firm I used for thirty years shut recently. They did all sorts of work for boats, industrial motors etc, and could recognise what car a motor was from just by looking at the nasty oily scrap plonked on the counter. Cost considerably less than being rebuilds from middle men too.

Yes there used to be back in the day.  Not sure if they are still around though. Will investigate! 

[Raeturbo]

You tubes your friend...  you know you want to

[amba]

Yes I remember that place,Nick.....bottom of Ordnance Street...got me out of a few fixes over the years.

I think they repaired my old Elites alternator for only a few £...good place...pity its closed

[Sir Tigger KC]

You tubes your friend...  you know you want to

You're right Rae I do. 

I just need to get the correct brushes and on present form...     

[Doctor Gollum]

Take them from the new one

[Sir Tigger KC]

Take them from the new one

Yes I thought of that, and I also wondered how hard would it be to fit the old cog to the new motor. 

I'll see what the response from the supplier is though before I start cannibalising it. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Take them from the new one

Yes I thought of that, and I also wondered how hard would it be to fit the old cog to the new motor. 

I'll see what the response from the supplier is though before I start cannibalising it. 

Pull the old one apart and see what's what. 

[dave the builder]

yep 
not uncommon for the brushes to be stuck due to carbon build-up but you can also measure the brushes and compare

[Kevin Wood]

Also worth checking the contacts that energise the motor if you can get to them.