Topic: As promised, some LPG pictures (Read 13488 times)

Kevin Wood · « **on:** 21 July 2008, 23:18:38 »

As promised, some pictures from my LPG installation.

Firstly, the bits that make up the kit:

The ECU

The wiring loom

LPG level indicator, switch and warning buzzer

Measurement Tee with vapour temperature sensor and MAP / Vapour pressure sensor

CD containing the mapping software

Cable (USB) to connect the ECU to a PC for setting up

LPG injector rails along with a bag of nozzles to go in the manifold and other assorted fittings.

Vapour filter (also splits the vapour feed to the 2 injector rails).

More fittings, cable ties, etc.

Various pipes for coolant, vacuum, lpg vapour and the liquid feed from the tank

Strip steel of various sizes for making up brackets.

Watch this space for more pictures of the conversion.

NOTE: Vapouriser is not pictured here as it arrived later...

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 July 2008, 23:28:10 »

So, on to the fitting, and we start with fitting the nozzles to the manifold:

Grind a little flat to start with

Drill the hole, starting small and opening out to 5mm.

Completed hole

A bit of cutting paste on the tap

.. and tap the hole

Clean up around the back of the hole so the nozzle has somewhere to seat.

Insert the nozzle with a little threadlock

A 3mm drill bit or allen key helps with alignment to avoid cross-threading.

One down, five to go.

Clean up the area around the nozzle to help airflow.

Position of nozzles as they emerge.

Smooth off the face of the manifold, especially where the gasket seals.

To Be Continued...

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 July 2008, 23:47:25 »

Some more pictures of the nozzles in the manifold:

.. and the swarf that I washed off it afterwards. This is why you don't let a cowboy drill them in-situ.

The "helter skelter" pipe is cut to take the return flow from the vapouriser from the driver's side of the engine.

A 90 degree fitting is used to remove the plumbing that went to the auxiliary coolant pump. (removed to make way for the vapouriser).

HBV and helter skelter in position. Feed to the vapouriser is from the coolant bridge via a 90 degree connector.

Manifold back in place, with LPG pipes on the nozzles.

Plenty of space once it's back in place.

.. add the piggy back wiring for the injectors and it's getting a bit more busy. Cable tray for the original injector loom has been discarded to make space (take care to get all the injector signals the right way round or it's plenum off to correct it later.

)

Driver's side LPG injectors installed.

Wiring for RPM feed, power and Lambda sensors runs across the front under the bonnet slam panel and into a hole in the front of the fuse box.

Connectors on the DBW ECUs are fearsome. Best to intercept the wires upstream!

Mounting of the gas ECU under the driver's side wing below airbox where the self levelling pump would otherwise be.

..and, finally, for this instalment, mounting of the level indicator, switch and buzzer. The DBW cars have a handy grommet where the throttle cable would normally be. Very handy for routing the wiring through.

JueV6 · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 July 2008, 23:58:17 »

All those pics Kevin and photobucket has crashed

JamesV6CDX · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 July 2008, 00:11:02 »

A tidy install Kev, it's all becoming a bit second nature, now

SP_3.2 · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 July 2008, 09:22:37 »

Well done great pics to Kev.

theowletman · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 July 2008, 09:53:33 »

Tidy installation, you should send the pictures to some of the cowboy installers out there.

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 July 2008, 10:23:54 »

A few more pictures and explanation I can do it myself

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 July 2008, 11:00:58 »

... and a few more pictures of the rest of the install I took this morning:

Location of the passenger's side injector rail.

Vacuum feed from the neck of the plenum Teed to the pressure sensor and the reference port on the vapouriser.

.. and stand back and see what the engine bay looks like. Not too badly butchered, I hope.

The measurement tee, pressure sensor and vapour filter are visible here, tucked away behind the driver's side injector rail.

And you can just about make out the vapouriser on the driver's side inner wing below the coolant header tank.

Plumbing (coolant and vapour) to the vapouriser from the rear of the engine.

Here you can just make out the liquid feed into the vapouriser and the polyflex hose curled up under the master cylinder to exit the wing through an existing hole near the petrol lines.

Here you can see the liquid pipe from the tank running up adjacent to the petrol lines.

Liquid feed and gauge / gas valve wiring as it enters the boot space, and also two of the tank frame mounting bolts with spacer plates under them (and plenty of waxoyl!).

Other side tank frame mountings. I came out a bit close to a hole in the frame here so an additional bit of metal was fabricated to spread the load.

Filler pipe as it's routed along the towbar. This will need improving! 4 hole filler lines are rubber hose, almost like hydraulic lines with JIC unions crimped to the end. The downside to this is that you need one the right length. 2m was perfect in my case. The kit came with a 1.5m pipe which wasn't going to work.

.. and here's the filler mounted on the towbar. It's ugly but so's the towbar.

A necessary evil for me.

The tank.

Wiring for the gauge and tank valve. LPGA state that wiring should be soldered and heat shrink sleeved.

Completed wiring in airtight housing.
You can see the 4 holes in the tank here. From left to right: liquid outlet with tank valve solenoid, Pressure relief valve, gauge, filler valve.

.. and a view from the back seat. This tank is a comfortable fit. Plenty of room all round. A bigger tank would go, of course, but it gets more tricky to fit.

Well, that about covers it.

Kevin

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 July 2008, 16:44:27 »

Some good pictures there - I kept my coolant pump and mounted the evaporator under the air box.

Towtrust towbar - like mine

My injectors are loose - just rely on the pipes

Dazzler · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 July 2008, 16:53:03 »

Excellent pics Kevin

I placed my nozzles higher up the trumpet, like some of the older ideas. Will this be ok or is the way you have done it the way to go :-/

Lazydocker · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 July 2008, 19:01:55 »

Looks very clean and tidy Kevin... I like the idea of running the liquid feed line out of the airtight box and then back through... I was trying to work out the best way to get it back over to the o/s of the car!!! I suppose that should also fulfill the LPGA requirement of slack at the tank end too!

Oh, and I see you've ended up securing the tank to the chassis rail... Did you put anything inside or just use the spreader plates? (which I assume were supplied?) I don't see any real need to pack the chassis rail as long as you don't tighten it like a gorilla!!!

JueV6 · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 July 2008, 22:11:46 »

Very nicely done, Kevin

HNO3GOH · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 July 2008, 22:26:09 »

I must say that looks great and i am just waiting now to see how the Holy Count gets on with his system and then i may just put one in my 3.0. Also my friend who looks after my car is moving to a bigger garage soon and will have a second ramp and has said i can use this to fit a gas system if i like. How long would you say it would take to fit on your own

Entwood · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 July 2008, 22:34:15 »

Very nice work

(and good photo's too - good basis for an LPG How to !!)

LPG just keeps getting better ... went to visit our son over the weekend ... Huddersfield ... thought I'd do an accurate check whilst driving reasonably sedately ...

195 miles .... £22.07 cost of gas (mind you it was cheaper up there than down here ..

)

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 July 2008, 23:43:48 »

Quote

I placed my nozzles higher up the trumpet, like some of the older ideas. Will this be ok or is the way you have done it the way to go

That's pretty much how we did JamesV6CDXs first manifold - and that worked nicely.

Quote

Oh, and I see you've ended up securing the tank to the chassis rail... Did you put anything inside or just use the spreader plates? (which I assume were supplied?) I don't see any real need to pack the chassis rail as long as you don't tighten it like a gorilla!!!

I didn't put spacers inside in the end. I meant to, and it's essential for anything that's tight like a towbar mounting, but given that the boot floor is not totally flat and we're mounting it through carpet you can't tighten the mountings much before the tank frame is in danger of getting distorted so I didn't feel it was required. Nylock nuts are essential though, due to the low tightening torque.

These and the plates didn't come in my kit but Jay W expressed surprise that they didn't. Got the plates at B&Q in the end.

Quote

How long would you say it would take to fit on your own

It's hard to say. 3 of us have done one in a weekend. With a ramp available it might save some time, but then again, it might prevent people working under and above in parallel.

I'd say you'd need 4 or 5 days to do it single handed but it's difficult to say.

Kevin

Kevin

VX1 · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 July 2008, 08:23:56 »

Kevin I like the way you have put the filler neck and attached it to the towbar, I didn't think that was an Ideal place to put as gravity goes.

Paul

Dazzler · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 July 2008, 09:03:21 »

Quote

Kevin I like the way you have put the filler neck and attached it to the towbar, I didn't think that was an Ideal place to put as gravity goes.

Paul

Mines similar, its behind the flap where the towing eye is fitted

No problem according to Jeremy and co

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 July 2008, 11:59:15 »

Excellent Job..Archieved all

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 July 2008, 17:52:30 »

Hi, new to the forum, so be gentle with me...

Just had my 2002 Estate 3.2 Elite fitted with LPG, but they have mounted the filler under the rear bumper, making it virtually impossible to get to!

I note the picture of the filler mounted on the tow bar but has anyone got pictures of an estate car filler mounted in the rear bumper or some other sensible place?

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 July 2008, 22:44:05 »

Quote

Hi, new to the forum, so be gentle with me...

Just had my 2002 Estate 3.2 Elite fitted with LPG, but they have mounted the filler under the rear bumper, making it virtually impossible to get to!

I note the picture of the filler mounted on the tow bar but has anyone got pictures of an estate car filler mounted in the rear bumper or some other sensible place?

We looked at doing that on an Estate and unfortunately there isn't enough space behind the bumper anywhere. I think the only other option is through a steel body panel (which can be done very neatly with the correct tool).

.. and it's not critical what height the filler is. The filler seals to the pump nozzle and the liquid is dispensed at a great pressure so it can cope with a rise to the tank.

Kevin

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 July 2008, 09:27:42 »

The problem is space behind the side panels in the boot area..., on the right is the amplifier and on the left is the subwoofer speaker.

Do you know if there is enough space behind the rear light panels or maybe the side of the bumper?

Lazydocker · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 July 2008, 10:09:06 »

Quote

The problem is space behind the side panels in the boot area..., on the right is the amplifier and on the left is the subwoofer speaker.

Do you know if there is enough space behind the rear light panels or maybe the side of the bumper?

You can fit the filler in the side of the bumper without too much hassle. It looks quite neat but it is also quite low so if you have back problems it may be an issue.

Quote

I think the only other option is through a steel body panel (which can be done very neatly with the correct tool).

I've had mine fitted in the panel (although I've got a saloon) and it looks really neat. Must admit though... Seems very strange letting someone cut a big hole in your pride and joy!!!

Entwood · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 July 2008, 10:21:16 »

On my saloon it looks like this ....

Don't know if the Estate has the same "cubby hole" by the lights cluster ??

Done this way so I can gas it up easily with the 'van hitched. Seen too many conversions - mainly disco's / rangies - with the towball mounted filler that folks have to park up, unhitch, drive to fill up, drive back, rehitch ..... to much aggro for me ..

Lazydocker · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 July 2008, 10:25:49 »

Quote

On my saloon it looks like this ....

Don't know if the Estate has the same "cubby hole" by the lights cluster ??

Done this way so I can gas it up easily with the 'van hitched. Seen too many conversions - mainly disco's / rangies - with the towball mounted filler that folks have to park up, unhitch, drive to fill up, rehitch ..... to much aggro for me ..

Mine's very similar, just central between the light cluster and the petrol flap. However, I'm going to have to modify the fuel flap central locking actuator as I had to undo it to get the filler in place... I think it'll go back ok in the end, just got to wait until I've finished messing about in that area before I do it!

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #25 on:** 24 July 2008, 15:27:01 »

Just to show you the problem..

Right had side enclosure with amp

Right rear light cubby hole

Left side speaker

Left side light cubby hole

Lazydocker · « **Reply #26 on:** 24 July 2008, 16:13:14 »

Hmm... Not entirely sure that would comply with the COP. :-/ :-/ :-/

Best bet would be to go for the tow bar mount in your case!

Entwood · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 July 2008, 17:44:48 »

That

a) looks horrible

b) would break your back filling up !!

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 July 2008, 18:10:36 »

I absolutely agree, it does look horrible and I guess it will break my back when I have to fill it for the first time.

Gas4Cars at Bletchley, Milton Keynes are the technical experts who came up with this sophisticated engineering solution. I reckon they were just too lazy to find a better place!

I think the tow hook mount looks favourite, if not ideal.

mkaminski100 · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 July 2008, 08:40:38 »

Kevin – excellent job. Professional job and professional guide. Is there a chance to stick it as a guide?
Do you mind Kev if I will also post it on polish forum? It’s a great chance to see how it should be installed. I could bribe you with this

http://www.myomega.ovh.org/podstrony/porady/landirenzoomegas/dysze_kolektor/dyszekolektor.htm

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #30 on:** 29 July 2008, 10:25:58 »

No probem.

He got those nozzles close to the petrol injectors.

Kevin

mkaminski100 · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 July 2008, 10:42:20 »

Very close indeed. I know that nozzles should be fitted at max 75 degree. Mine are different so I cant place them so close

TheBoy · « **Reply #32 on:** 07 August 2008, 11:19:47 »

Quote

Kevin – excellent job. Professional job and professional guide. Is there a chance to stick it as a guide?
Do you mind Kev if I will also post it on polish forum? It’s a great chance to see how it should be installed. I could bribe you with this http://www.myomega.ovh.org/podstrony/porady/landirenzoomegas/dysze_kolektor/dyszekolektor.htm

Would prefer it if you simply linked to this page, if that is at all possible

mkaminski100 · « **Reply #33 on:** 07 August 2008, 12:04:28 »

Quote

Quote
Kevin – excellent job. Professional job and professional guide. Is there a chance to stick it as a guide?
Do you mind Kev if I will also post it on polish forum? It’s a great chance to see how it should be installed. I could bribe you with this http://www.myomega.ovh.org/podstrony/porady/landirenzoomegas/dysze_kolektor/dyszekolektor.htm
Would prefer it if you simply linked to this page, if that is at all possible

I wouldnt copy anything from one place to another without adding a source. Only a link was supplied. I hope this is ok.
http://forum.omegaklub.eu/viewtopic.php?t=17431

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #34 on:** 07 August 2008, 12:13:22 »

<paranoid> Plugs the page into a translator so see what they're saying about me.</Paranoid>

I think someone mentioned the brand of tank. My tank appears to be made by a company called GZWM. (Grodkowskie Zak[ch322]ady Wyrobów Metalowych S.A.).

Sounds like it might mean more to you than me, Marcin.

Kevin

mkaminski100 · « **Reply #35 on:** 07 August 2008, 12:26:47 »

http://www.gzwm.com.pl/strona/about_us
As requested. I never heard about them, but it doesn’t mean that their tanks are not good. I think it’s an old company specialized in fire extinguisher production but now they had a chance to go into car industry. I also assume that most of their production is exported to UK, Belgium, Holland where I found similar tanks. Your level gage is better secured than in STAKO tank. Apart from that they are same.

I didn’t thought that your tank is also made in Poland. I have mentioned that you have different tank, but STAG (most popular in PL) is popular in UK as well.
I also teased them about DIY conversion as it it illegal in my country. It has to be installed by approved installer with proper certificates. We also have to inform equivalen of DVLA.
Guys were asking about your tow bar because in Germany it has to be detachable at any time. In Poland it’s not required but yours is something between – you can take it off but need to take nuts and bolts before.
I also added info about your tank.

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #36 on:** 07 August 2008, 14:03:55 »

Quote

Guys were asking about your tow bar because in Germany it has to be detachable at any time. In Poland it’s not required but yours is something between – you can take it off but need to take nuts and bolts before.
I also added info about your tank.

Interesting... Mine is the traditional UK style tow bar which dates back from a time when we had imperial sized balls (quiet at the back!) in addition to the 50mm metric ones. You can obviously change the ball if necessary. Only in the last 10-15 years have the swan neck style become more popular.

Kevin

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #37 on:** 22 August 2008, 23:16:49 »

Thought I'd add a few last pictures. The mapping software:

The main settings where we configure the type of engine, the criteria for switching from and to petrol and so on. On the right hand side are the live data variables from the LPG ECU which are updated continuously while the software is talking to the ECU.

The little injector - shaped images below the live variables can be used to switch individual cylinders between petrol and LPG. Very useful if you're looking for a cylinder that's misfiring.

The map. This is where the main adjustment of the fuelling on LPG is made. The orange line represents the factor by which the injector opening time (and hence desired fuel delivery) from the main ECU is multiplied when used to determine how much LPG to inject.

The green and blue curves (almost on top of each other - as they should be) represent the observed injector duration from the main ECU under various load conditions. Essentially, mapping is the process by which the orange line is adjusted to try to match the green curve with the blue curve.

At the bottom of the display a selection of the live data variables can be plotted against time, and the trace can be saved for later analysis. Useful for finding issues that only occur on the road.

Minispud · « **Reply #38 on:** 23 August 2008, 20:41:11 »

How far can you push the engine as far as tuning go's (Turbos / Supercharging) when running on LPG

?

Lazydocker · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 August 2008, 21:31:04 »

Kevin, did you add extra multiplier points for the mapping? I only seem to get the 2 from auto cal and 4 in between. I think I might well try adding some more and remap it :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #40 on:** 26 August 2008, 19:50:50 »

Kevin, today I showed your LPG conversion pictures to my mechanic friends..They are really impressed by your work..And the first sentence they said "this man is professional"

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #41 on:** 30 August 2008, 00:51:30 »

Quote

How far can you push the engine as far as tuning go's (Turbos / Supercharging) when running on LPG ?

It's a high octane fuel so as far as you can on Petrol and then some. If you inject it as a vapour you will always get slightly less power but can run more compression / boost due to the higher octane.

Inject it as a liquid, however.... It will have real potential when liquid injection becomes more widespread IMHO.

Quote

Kevin, did you add extra multiplier points for the mapping? I only seem to get the 2 from auto cal and 4 in between. I think I might well try adding some more and remap it

Yes, you can add more points to the map. Right click on the orange line where you want one IIRC.

Quote

"this man is professional"

Hmm. This man doesn't take photos of things he's ashamed of.

Kevin

Jay w · « **Reply #42 on:** 30 August 2008, 01:17:08 »

Kevin, have you ever managed to get the fuel gauge to work properly, no matter what i do i cannot get mine to read anything aside from full or empty.

Cracking pics BTW

Kevin Wood · « **Reply #43 on:** 30 August 2008, 12:24:07 »

Mine works fine, but the gauge is different as it's a 4 hole tank.

I would find out what resistance your gauge is and configure the ECU accordingly then, if you have 250 miles of range on the tank, for example, go into the software after 50,100,150 and 200 miles and note down the voltage from the sensor. You then have the threshold voltage to set for each LED step on the display.

Kevin

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #44 on:** 30 August 2008, 15:55:54 »

I convereted to lpg about 1200 miles ago and everything has been fine until this week when the engine management light came on and it keeps putting the car in safe running mode.

Does anyone know if there is a particular sensor that might be causing this and can you it be adjusted or reset?

thanks Carl

cem_devecioglu · « **Reply #45 on:** 30 August 2008, 20:42:22 »

Quote

Quote
How far can you push the engine as far as tuning go's (Turbos / Supercharging) when running on LPG ?

It's a high octane fuel so as far as you can on Petrol and then some. If you inject it as a vapour you will always get slightly less power but can run more compression / boost due to the higher octane.

Inject it as a liquid, however.... It will have real potential when liquid injection becomes more widespread IMHO.

Quote
Kevin, did you add extra multiplier points for the mapping? I only seem to get the 2 from auto cal and 4 in between. I think I might well try adding some more and remap it

Yes, you can add more points to the map. Right click on the orange line where you want one IIRC.

Quote
"this man is professional"

Hmm. This man doesn't take photos of things he's ashamed of.

Kevin

No need to be humble

Lazydocker · « **Reply #46 on:** 30 August 2008, 22:18:08 »

Quote

Quote:
Kevin, did you add extra multiplier points for the mapping? I only seem to get the 2 from auto cal and 4 in between. I think I might well try adding some more and remap it

Yes, you can add more points to the map. Right click on the orange line where you want one IIRC.

I guess I'll be re-mapping mine then... Mind you, it's nearly time for a 1000 mile check!!! By the time I go to Heathrow and back tomorrow with my neighbour I'll be over that

Entwood · « **Reply #47 on:** 30 August 2008, 22:31:09 »

Quote

I convereted to lpg about 1200 miles ago and everything has been fine until this week when the engine management light came on and it keeps putting the car in safe running mode.

Does anyone know if there is a particular sensor that might be causing this and can you it be adjusted or reset?

thanks Carl

Have you tried the pedal trick

brake pedal to the floor, throttle to the floor, switch engine on but DO NOT START ...

EML will flash out any error codes, count the flashes (10 = 0)

Post up results here or look on http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/

PS ... might be best starting a new thread in General Help rather than hijacking Kev's picture thread ..

HTH

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #48 on:** 02 September 2008, 16:14:45 »

Thanks for the advice.

Codes highlighted multiple misfire, confirmed by dealership. They suspect a burnt out LPG injector.

Dealer thinks this is a common problem with LPG conversions, but has anyone else heard if this is a common problem and what, if anything, can be done to rectify it?

Martin_1962 · « **Reply #49 on:** 05 September 2008, 09:52:17 »

Quote

Thanks for the advice.

Codes highlighted multiple misfire, confirmed by dealership. They suspect a burnt out LPG injector.

Dealer thinks this is a common problem with LPG conversions, but has anyone else heard if this is a common problem and what, if anything, can be done to rectify it?

Plugs

I had this - worn out plugs

Entwood · « **Reply #50 on:** 05 September 2008, 10:02:39 »

LPG will rapidly find ANY problems with the HT side of the ignition .. plugs/leads/coils packs/DIS .. whichever you have .. check them first !!

If there is not a decent fat spark LPG will not ignite ...

A single LPG injector fail would not give "multiple" missfires .. it would only affect 1 cylinder.

Track-day Bob · « **Reply #51 on:** 05 September 2008, 10:28:42 »

It ended up being debris stuck in the injectors... garage cleared it and it runs like a dream again!

Not sure quite how the debris got there in the first place, I suspect a lack of cleanliness when they fitted the lpg system.

I will bear in mind your comments regarding the ignition system for any furture misfire problems.

They also managed to move the filler from under the rear bumper to next to the petrol filler, why they didn't do this in the first place I don't know, but at least it is sorted now.

Many thanks to everyone on the forum, your help has been invaluable!

News:

Author Topic: As promised, some LPG pictures (Read 13488 times)

cem_devecioglu

Martin_1962

cem_devecioglu

cem_devecioglu

cem_devecioglu

Martin_1962