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[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Peter Hitchens gives a very interesting viewpoint on this in the Mail today.
Basically, its Bill Clintons fault. When the USSR collapsed the west should have celebrated that the forces of Democracy had won and should have assisted them and embraced them as friends.
Instead the Clinton administration took the opportunity to expand NATO* across eastern Europe.
They were warned that this would result in the scenario we have now, but took no notice.

* NATO was set up to counter the threat from the USSR. 


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10540829/PETER-HITCHENS-blame-arrogant-foolish-West-Ukraine-crisis.html

[Varche]

Donald Trump describes Putins aggression towards Ukraine as genius, wonderful and savvy.

Hmm might expect a Putin crony to say that but a former US president?

[Doctor Gollum]

Well, Donald does have a knack for saying things out loud

Putin is in a position to do whatever he wants. And there is nothing anyone can actually do about it. Short of disappearing him.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I've never really bought this line that it's all the fault of NATO expansion and the former soviet countries shouldn't have been allowed to join.

While Hitchens is right in a sense that the West should have fostered friendly relations with Russia, you cannot blame countries like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for wanting to join NATO after 50 odd years of often brutal suppression under the Russian boot during the USSR years. As democratic independent sovereign states they should be free to join or leave what ever international organisation that they choose.

I'd argue that things would be even worse now had those countries not joined NATO, as it's possible Putin would be having a go at them as well. He seems hell bent on recreating some kind Russian empire/USSR.  He's taken South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia in a short but brutal war, Crimea from Ukraine and now the Donbass also from Ukraine, and who knows what he plans next. 

I think it's unlikely that he'll have a go at the Baltics though, precisely because they are members of NATO.

[Doctor Gollum]

It's a two way street... They're just as keen to stop there own from experiencing a better way of life than bread queues and gulags. Besides there were two sides pissing into the Cold War bucket. And the Russian people always lose.

The great socialist experiment always fails, but they're too stubborn to admit it.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I've never really bought this line that it's all the fault of NATO expansion and the former soviet countries shouldn't have been allowed to join.

While Hitchens is right in a sense that the West should have fostered friendly relations with Russia, you cannot blame countries like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for wanting to join NATO after 50 odd years of often brutal suppression under the Russian boot during the USSR years. As democratic independent sovereign states they should be free to join or leave what ever international organisation that they choose.

I'd argue that things would be even worse now had those countries not joined NATO, as it's possible Putin would be having a go at them as well. He seems hell bent on recreating some kind Russian empire/USSR.  He's taken South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia in a short but brutal war, Crimea from Ukraine and now the Donbass also from Ukraine, and who knows what he plans next. 

I think it's unlikely that he'll have a go at the Baltics though, precisely because they are members of NATO.

I don't think he'd dare.....but.

He has a strong sense of the old USSR and can see himself as a 'great leader' in the Russian history books to come.

[Sir Tigger KC]

The other thing is that there have been suggestions that he is not well and has Parkinson's disease.  I noticed last night on the news, that as he walked across a room to a podium his right arm was completely still, as if he has had a stroke or something. 

Maybe he thinks time is not on his side....

[STEMO]

Donald Trump describes Putins aggression towards Ukraine as genius, wonderful and savvy.

Hmm might expect a Putin crony to say that but a former US president?

That show of cretinism needs to be written down by the Democrats and plastered over every billboard in America come the next election. Pictures of Donald and Vlad having a cheeseburger together whilst discussing how they're going to divvy up Eastern Europe.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The other thing is that there have been suggestions that he is not well and has Parkinson's disease.  I noticed last night on the news, that as he walked across a room to a podium his right arm was completely still, as if he has had a stroke or something. 

Maybe he thinks time is not on his side....

An old uncle of mine suffered with Parkinson's. He was never still and shook like a shitting dog most of the time.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Not for us they don't.

God, you're hard work. If you've got nothing constructive to add, shut up.

You've just asked for opinions. Al has just given you his.

You're very moody today, old lad.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I've never really bought this line that it's all the fault of NATO expansion and the former soviet countries shouldn't have been allowed to join.

While Hitchens is right in a sense that the West should have fostered friendly relations with Russia, you cannot blame countries like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for wanting to join NATO after 50 odd years of often brutal suppression under the Russian boot during the USSR years. As democratic independent sovereign states they should be free to join or leave what ever international organisation that they choose.

I'd argue that things would be even worse now had those countries not joined NATO, as it's possible Putin would be having a go at them as well. He seems hell bent on recreating some kind Russian empire/USSR.  He's taken South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia in a short but brutal war, Crimea from Ukraine and now the Donbass also from Ukraine, and who knows what he plans next. 

I think it's unlikely that he'll have a go at the Baltics though, precisely because they are members of NATO.

I think the reasoning is that if the west had behaved differently towards Russia after the USSR collapsed, recent history would be very different and a thug like Putin would never have had the opportunity to come to power.
Had things been very different and Russia became a friendly genuine democracy there wouldnt even be a need for NATO to exist.

[STEMO]

Not for us they don't.

God, you're hard work. If you've got nothing constructive to add, shut up.

You've just asked for opinions. Al has just given you his.

You're very moody today, old lad.

I'm not moody. And that was yesterday.
Go and read your old Playboy magazines. Well, look at the pictures anyway. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

The other thing is that there have been suggestions that he is not well and has Parkinson's disease.  I noticed last night on the news, that as he walked across a room to a podium his right arm was completely still, as if he has had a stroke or something. 

Maybe he thinks time is not on his side....

An old uncle of mine suffered with Parkinson's. He was never still and shook like a shitting dog most of the time.

Yes, the RE teacher at school had Parkinsons.  We called him The Shaking Budda!  

[STEMO]

The other thing is that there have been suggestions that he is not well and has Parkinson's disease.  I noticed last night on the news, that as he walked across a room to a podium his right arm was completely still, as if he has had a stroke or something. 

Maybe he thinks time is not on his side....

An old uncle of mine suffered with Parkinson's. He was never still and shook like a shitting dog most of the time.

Yes, the RE teacher at school had Parkinsons.  We called him The Shaking Budda!  

You went to an Indian school? 

[Doctor Gollum]

The other thing is that there have been suggestions that he is not well and has Parkinson's disease.  I noticed last night on the news, that as he walked across a room to a podium his right arm was completely still, as if he has had a stroke or something. 

Maybe he thinks time is not on his side....

An old uncle of mine suffered with Parkinson's. He was never still and shook like a shitting dog most of the time.

Yes, the RE teacher at school had Parkinsons.  We called him The Shaking Budda!  

You went to an Indian school? 

They're a diverse bunch in Dorsetshire