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[theowletman]

I feel for anyone who has a certain standard of living which is always determined by their income, and suddenly finds that this standard is being eroded through no fault of their own. Council workers, no matter how badly they think they are being treated, at least have some protection and the option to strike. Most people do not. Throughout the last 10 years we have all seen prices rise, but not wages. Spare a thought for the massive army of self-employed workers, and those, like me, who receive a small basic wage and rely on sales commission for the rest. My basic is £10k a year, the rest being made up of commission from cars sold. We used to sell 12/15 cars a week which more  than doubled my wage, nowadays we are selling 6 or 7 a week, my wages have plummeted, I can't strike,  I have no protection or guarantees,
no unions, no public sympathy. All of us will know building workers and HGV drivers who have been laid off, they are in a similar position. So please forgive me if I have few thoughts for council workers. None of those council workers  who received large payments for the difference in wages between male and female workers were complaining then, being able to retire early is also not an option for people like me. I am not trying to sound bitter or pompous but welcome to the real world economy, market forces will now determine civic pay. Despite council tax doubling in the last 10 years can any OOF member honestly say they receive a better service for the extra money?

[TheBoy]

I feel for anyone who has a certain standard of living which is always determined by their income, and suddenly finds that this standard is being eroded through no fault of their own. Council workers, no matter how badly they think they are being treated, at least have some protection and the option to strike. Most people do not. Throughout the last 10 years we have all seen prices rise, but not wages. Spare a thought for the massive army of self-employed workers, and those, like me, who receive a small basic wage and rely on sales commission for the rest. My basic is £10k a year, the rest being made up of commission from cars sold. We used to sell 12/15 cars a week which more  than doubled my wage, nowadays we are selling 6 or 7 a week, my wages have plummeted, I can't strike,  I have no protection or guarantees,
no unions, no public sympathy. All of us will know building workers and HGV drivers who have been laid off, they are in a similar position. So please forgive me if I have few thoughts for council workers. None of those council workers  who received large payments for the difference in wages between male and female workers were complaining then, being able to retire early is also not an option for people like me. I am not trying to sound bitter or pompous but welcome to the real world economy, market forces will now determine civic pay. Despite council tax doubling in the last 10 years can any OOF member honestly say they receive a better service for the extra money?

Not in anyway knocking the council 'workers', but I pay just shy of £2k per year, only to get my bins emptied 26 times.  Can't see what else they provide.

I rang a nice lady at the council a few years back to ask where my (then) £1400 was going.

Council "Upkeeping the verges"
Me "Residents do that on my estate"
Council "Err, upkeep of your road"
Me "You haven't adopted it yet, hence why you won't fix the ironwork"
Council "Library"
Me "It only opens when I'm at work"
Council "Police"
Me "Our station is part time, do we get a rebate for part time Police?"
Council "We subsidise the pool here in Towcester"
Me "I work, and you only allow swimming clubs in the evenings"

In the end, she admitted poor value for money, basically £56 to empty my bin.

[Kevin Wood]

In the end, she admitted poor value for money, basically £56 to empty my bin.

Same here. Although they do a round for rubbish, a round for recycling, a round for glass recycling, and a round for garden waste (for which people mugs pay extra).

Must be really good for the environment, this recycling, given that each round consititutes driving a huge great diesel truck around for most of the day.

Still it lets them tick their boxes, I suppose.

So, we're getting screwed, the guys at the coal face are undoubtedly getting screwed. Where's it all going?

Kevin

[TheBoy]

In the end, she admitted poor value for money, basically £56 to empty my bin.

Same here. Although they do a round for rubbish, a round for recycling, a round for glass recycling, and a round for garden waste (for which people mugs pay extra).

Must be really good for the environment, this recycling, given that each round consititutes driving a huge great diesel truck around for most of the day.

Still it lets them tick their boxes, I suppose.

So, we're getting screwed, the guys at the coal face are undoubtedly getting screwed. Where's it all going?

Kevin

**  Deleted  **

[rickyboy]

I can suggest where some of the money is going...

...Employing people to catch smokers.

I had a council worker stop me in my work van and give me a £30 fine for smoking.  He spends his whole day driving up and done a road near my work to catch smokers.  What a joke.  

Not only that there are loads of smoking patrol officers in the Glasgow city centre.  Also been done for dropping a fag doubt.  I personally think the council have more pressing matters to worry about and employing a workforce to catch people smoking is nothing short of ridiculous.  

I know a little unrelated to the original post but just the mention of the council starts my blood boiling these days.   Rant over...

[JamesV6CDX]

In the end, she admitted poor value for money, basically £56 to empty my bin.

Same here. Although they do a round for rubbish, a round for recycling, a round for glass recycling, and a round for garden waste (for which people mugs pay extra).

Must be really good for the environment, this recycling, given that each round consititutes driving a huge great diesel truck around for most of the day.

Still it lets them tick their boxes, I suppose.

So, we're getting screwed, the guys at the coal face are undoubtedly getting screwed. Where's it all going?

Kevin

**  Deleted  **

Was even your opinion too Blunt, TB?

[Andy B]

.....
Not in anyway knocking the council 'workers', but I pay just shy of £2k per year, only to get my bins emptied 26 times.  Can't see what else they provide .......

Can't say for around your way, but here around £1 a week goes towards your bin being emptied.
By far the biggest drain on your council tax is education and the small army in social services.

[TheBoy]

.....
Not in anyway knocking the council 'workers', but I pay just shy of £2k per year, only to get my bins emptied 26 times.  Can't see what else they provide .......

Can't say for around your way, but here around £1 a week goes towards your bin being emptied.
By far the biggest drain on your council tax is education and the small army in social services.

Actually, she did mention kids, and I asked for rebate for being a DINK, but she said no.

And the state spongers, including my fat lazy sister, should be left to sort themselves out. Or shot. That would lessen the burden on the taxpayer, and free up all those social services people to do something useful  


No, I'm not going to start on a rant....

[TheBoy]

In the end, she admitted poor value for money, basically £56 to empty my bin.

Same here. Although they do a round for rubbish, a round for recycling, a round for glass recycling, and a round for garden waste (for which people mugs pay extra).

Must be really good for the environment, this recycling, given that each round consititutes driving a huge great diesel truck around for most of the day.

Still it lets them tick their boxes, I suppose.

So, we're getting screwed, the guys at the coal face are undoubtedly getting screwed. Where's it all going?

Kevin

**  Deleted  **

Was even your opinion too Blunt, TB?

Bit harsh, even by my standards  

[JamesV6CDX]

And the state spongers, including my fat lazy sister, should be left to sort themselves out. Or shot..

You know, you are so un-PC, I find it very refreshing

Incidently, I also agree with what you say. I know someone on incapacity benefit that can't work in an office but can have a vigourous excercise routine every day  

[Kevin Wood]

So, that's 4 out of my 200 quid a month that's spent on something useful...

Ah, 2 quid. They only do our bins on alternate weeks.

Kevin

[TheBoy]

And the state spongers, including my fat lazy sister, should be left to sort themselves out. Or shot..

You know, you are so un-PC, I find it very refreshing

Incidently, I also agree with what you say. I know someone on incapacity benefit that can't work in an office but can have a vigourous excercise routine every day  

I used to live in a newbuild on a ex-council estate, that was mostly private by time I moved there.  The council seemed to fail to sell houses in one corner of it, as they put most of the 'difficult' families there.

Going to the local postoffice, that fat slags off the estate would pick up their giro, and slap £20 of it on the National Lottery and scratch cards (the PO were wise to fit a lottery machine!), and a load more on fags.

Thats were a shit load of your tax goes  


Now that same house of mine was built next to a load of old biddies bungalows.  I frequently used to end up chatting to a lot of them as I went for walks.  These pensioners, waiting to die, were on a bloody pittence, most of them couldn't afford to keep warm in the winter, let alone blow £20 a week on the rather lotto  

[Andy B]

Some people will always play the system if it's there to be played. I know others who could receive benefits due to ill health but go out to work. Re Job Evaluation. One of the council staff from the benefits office was working out what a particular claimant was entitled to. When he realised that he/she would be better off sat at home than he would be working for the benefits office, he packed up his stuff & resigned.  :-?

[TheBoy]

you are so un-PC

I do get in quite a lot of trouble, frequently  

[LaserLance]

AH well here we go down the crapper and pretty damn fast again ,I think we are gonna get a summer ,autumn and winter of disciontent this time ,only way you seem to get any where atm is to to a freeloader feral and breakless cos all the hardworkers get shafted .Last one out turn the lights out !!!!!

[Andy B]

And the state spongers, including my fat lazy sister, should be left to sort themselves out. Or shot..

You know, you are so un-PC, I find it very refreshing

Incidently, I also agree with what you say. I know someone on incapacity benefit that can't work in an office but can have a vigourous excercise routine every day  

I used to live in a newbuild on a ex-council estate, that was mostly private by time I moved there.  The council seemed to fail to sell houses in one corner of it, as they put most of the 'difficult' families there.

Going to the local postoffice, that fat slags off the estate would pick up their giro, and slap £20 of it on the National Lottery and scratch cards (the PO were wise to fit a lottery machine!), and a load more on fags.

Thats were a nuts load of your tax goes  


Now that same house of mine was built next to a load of old biddies bungalows.  I frequently used to end up chatting to a lot of them as I went for walks.  These pensioners, waiting to die, were on a bloody pittence, most of them couldn't afford to keep warm in the winter, let alone blow £20 a week on the rather lotto  

And as you  originally said STATE spongers, F***-all to do with local government.

[TheBoy]

Some people will always play the system if it's there to be played. I know others who could receive benefits due to ill health but go out to work. Re Job Evaluation. One of the council staff from the benefits office was working out what a particular claimant was entitled to. When he realised that he/she would be better off sat at home than he would be working for the benefits office, he packed up his stuff & resigned.  :-?

And that is precisely the trouble with the benefits system!  Scrap it!  Make people go to work, if they don't, no money, no food, die.  The government are too bloody gay over the whole issue.  There are very few people in this country who are unable to work in one form or another.

[TheBoy]

And the state spongers, including my fat lazy sister, should be left to sort themselves out. Or shot..

You know, you are so un-PC, I find it very refreshing

Incidently, I also agree with what you say. I know someone on incapacity benefit that can't work in an office but can have a vigourous excercise routine every day  

I used to live in a newbuild on a ex-council estate, that was mostly private by time I moved there.  The council seemed to fail to sell houses in one corner of it, as they put most of the 'difficult' families there.

Going to the local postoffice, that fat slags off the estate would pick up their giro, and slap £20 of it on the National Lottery and scratch cards (the PO were wise to fit a lottery machine!), and a load more on fags.

Thats were a nuts load of your tax goes  


Now that same house of mine was built next to a load of old biddies bungalows.  I frequently used to end up chatting to a lot of them as I went for walks.  These pensioners, waiting to die, were on a bloody pittence, most of them couldn't afford to keep warm in the winter, let alone blow £20 a week on the rather lotto  

And as you  originally said STATE spongers, F***-all to do with local government.

Sorry, AndyB, was not digging at council workers, more the idiots in suits above them  

[Andy B]

....
And that is precisely the trouble with the benefits system!  Scrap it!  Make people go to work, if they don't, no money, no food, die.  The government are too bloody gay over the whole issue.  There are very few people in this country who are unable to work in one form or another.

Agreed. Which brings us full circle. You go out to work to bring home a mediocre wage (don't ever tell her I said that  ) and then they want to take a quarter of it off you, cos someone you have never clapped eyes on has decreed you're only worth so much!

[Andy B]

......
Sorry, AndyB, was not digging at council workers, more the idiots in suits above them  

That's OK. I'd realised you were mid-rant.      

[rickyboy]

Some people will always play the system if it's there to be played. I know others who could receive benefits due to ill health but go out to work. Re Job Evaluation. One of the council staff from the benefits office was working out what a particular claimant was entitled to. When he realised that he/she would be better off sat at home than he would be working for the benefits office, he packed up his stuff & resigned.  :-?

And that is precisely the trouble with the benefits system!  Scrap it!  Make people go to work, if they don't, no money, no food, die.  The government are too bloody gay over the whole issue.  There are very few people in this country who are unable to work in one form or another.

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

[TheBoy]

......
Sorry, AndyB, was not digging at council workers, more the idiots in suits above them  

That's OK. I'd realised you were mid-rant.      

Sorry, I promise to calm down now  

[Andy B]

Who's going to be the front man/woman for the OOF in Parliament Party?      

[rickyboy]

Problem is there are so many layabouts and they are allowed to vote.  Offering bums benefits is a great way to get a big chunk of the population to vote for your party.

[Kevin Wood]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

[TheBoy]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Western society is on the verge of fubar, esp when we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.  



Anyway, I'm thinking nice thoughts. Sand, sea, beach, peace....

[rickyboy]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Yes very worrying.  I've recently had a pay cut and I've had to sorn my car as I cannot afford to tax it.  It makes me pretty sick when I see unemployed people driving around in brand new cars and I can't afford to get by working six days a week.

[rickyboy]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Western society is on the verge of fubar, esp when we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.  



Anyway, I'm thinking nice thoughts. Sand, sea, beach, peace....

All the PC so called "do gooders" are people who don't have to deal or have never dealt with criminals or junkies.  If they were mugged or attacked by one in the street I'm sure they'd quickly change their minds.

[TheBoy]

We have gone waaaay off topic, and original post was a serious post, so I've split it where I thought was relevent.

Sorry for going off topic AndyB.

[Andy B]

....
 .. we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.   .....

This one?

[Andy B]

....
 .. we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.   .....

This one?

[TheBoy]

....
 .. we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.   .....

This one?

Thats the useless bitch

[Andy B]

We have gone waaaay off topic, and original post was a serious post, so I've split it where I thought was relevent.

Sorry for going off topic AndyB.

and we never ever go off topic on OOF ..... do we!  

[TheBoy]

....
 .. we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.   .....

This one?

Thats the useless pregnant dog

effing word censor  

[Andy B]

....
 .. we have that stupid bird from Liberty on the telly every morning protesting that prisoners/junkies/criminals/etc are getting unfair treatment.  She needs to see the sharp end of a rifle as well, dozy, useless, pointless cow.   .....

This one?

Thats the useless pregnant dog

What are you doing watching day time telly? I just can't watch it .... any of it.    

[FRE07962128]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Yes very worrying.  I've recently had a pay cut and I've had to sorn my car as I cannot afford to tax it.  It makes me pretty sick when I see unemployed people driving around in brand new cars and I can't afford to get by working six days a week.

How do you know they are unemployed?  :-? :-?

It is a fact that basic "unemployed" people cannot afford brand new cars, they just do not receive enough Job Seekers Allowance to do so!   If they have enough savings to pay for a brand new car then they will not be able to claim benefits!!!!

[rickyboy]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Yes very worrying.  I've recently had a pay cut and I've had to sorn my car as I cannot afford to tax it.  It makes me pretty sick when I see unemployed people driving around in brand new cars and I can't afford to get by working six days a week.

How do you know they are unemployed?  :-? :-?

It is a fact that basic "unemployed" people cannot afford brand new cars, they just do not receive enough Job Seekers Allowance to do so!   If they have enough savings to pay for a brand new car then they will not be able to claim benefits!!!!

People I know who are unemployed.  Plenty of them about up here.  You can still get credit when you are unemployed.

[TheBoy]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Yes very worrying.  I've recently had a pay cut and I've had to sorn my car as I cannot afford to tax it.  It makes me pretty sick when I see unemployed people driving around in brand new cars and I can't afford to get by working six days a week.

How do you know they are unemployed?  :-? :-?

It is a fact that basic "unemployed" people cannot afford brand new cars, they just do not receive enough Job Seekers Allowance to do so!   If they have enough savings to pay for a brand new car then they will not be able to claim benefits!!!!

People I know who are unemployed.  Plenty of them about up here.  You can still get credit when you are unemployed.

Not for the last few months....

[FRE07962128]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

Yes very worrying.  I've recently had a pay cut and I've had to sorn my car as I cannot afford to tax it.  It makes me pretty sick when I see unemployed people driving around in brand new cars and I can't afford to get by working six days a week.

How do you know they are unemployed?  :-? :-?

It is a fact that basic "unemployed" people cannot afford brand new cars, they just do not receive enough Job Seekers Allowance to do so!   If they have enough savings to pay for a brand new car then they will not be able to claim benefits!!!!

People I know who are unemployed.  Plenty of them about up here.  You can still get credit when you are unemployed.

You can only obtain VERY limited credit when people are "unemployed", and not enough to buy brand new cars!

[rickyboy]

It's been finally changed then.  Point being though - people who are capable of work and have no interest in working learn rather quickly how to sponge the system and you can make a healthy living from it.  I've heard plenty of them boasting about it.

Also plenty of them claiming credit on neighbours post codes etc.

[LaserLance]

"esp when we have that stupid bird from Liberty" you mean shami ,shami,shami jon gaunt from talksports favourate person apart from himself  

[FRE07962128]

It's been finally changed then.  Point being though - people who are capable of work and have no interest in working learn rather quickly how to sponge the system and you can make a healthy living from it.  I've heard plenty of them boasting about it.

Also plenty of them claiming credit on neighbours post codes etc.

Ah, so we have moved away from "brand new cars"

But how many is "plenty" ; 100% of 6 or 3% of 100 unemployed?  Or just the odd minority who are the criminally minded amoungst us anyway? :-? :-?

At any level of our society, top to bottom, there are people who "use" the system for their own ends to unfairly obtain advantage from the rest of us.     However it is dangerous to tar all unemployed with the same brush and condemn them, or anyone else for that matter, with bland general statements without hard facts to back it all up!

That is what the Nazis did against the Jews, the disabled, the sick, the trade unionists etc!!

Me getting heavy?  Well yes, but this is what prejudice does in society at the extreme, and reading through this "rant" it shows how easily prejudice can be stoked without true facts to back it all up; just "feelings" leading to "hate"!

[albitz]

I have been unemployed through no fault of my own since april 10th.
so far I have not claimed a penny from the state as a matter of principle,as i believe that large chunks of the welfare state should be dismantled.
I have investigated the benifits system and i believe that if i was to play on the disability i have ,i could have a new car (motobility)and could get by on the benifits which i could claim.
I consider myself to be able to work for a while yet and that is what i intend to do.
i have applied for many jobs and not had so much as a reply from most of them,but i had an interview last week for a job (35 per cent less money than i was earning) and i am pinning my hopes on getting the job.
if i dont have a job by this time next week i will have no option but to claim benifits,if i do it will be with a heavy heart and probably tears in my eyes.
In short i largely agree with The Boy on this subject .there are many people in this country who have a reasonably comfortable existence by playing the benefits system.The government are doing these people no favours as they are removing the concepts of aspiration and ambition from them in their early years,and it of course causes resentment from taxpayers who are working to keep these families as well as their own.It also denies funds to genuinely sick and disabled people which is disgraceful.
I will start having some faith in the tory party when Dave (blair lite)cameron explains how he will stop this and reverse the hundreds of tax increases imposed in the last decade.
Personally I will believe it when i see it.

[Taxi_Driver]

Going back to council tax.......there would be an uproar if council tax payers knew how much the local councils spend on taxi's  

[Kevin Wood]

The roots of the problem are twofold, IMHO.

1) We have a benefits system that allows people to attain a better standard of life on benefits than they would be able to achieve by working. Regardless of the reason for being on benefits, that hardly gives any incentive to try and improve their lot in life. Benefits are paid to able-bodied people to provide temporary assistance to allow them to survive while they do that. They should provide for accommodation, food, clothes, sanitation and heating. Not lottery tickets, cars, fags, booze, drugs, flat screen TVs, Sky subscriptions, etc.

2) The "anything goes" morality that we have these days that teaches us that any lifestyle, no matter how selfish, is to be respected, means that people don't have the decency to stand on their own feet when they can make a "lifestyle choice" to sponge off the rest of us.

Kevin

[albitz]

totally agree  

[Jay w]

And that is precisely the trouble with the benefits system!  Scrap it!  Make people go to work, if they don't, no money, no food, die.  The government are too bloody gay over the whole issue.  There are very few people in this country who are unable to work in one form or another.

i don't agree with scrapping it........

I do believe there is a fairer system, ensure that people are not allowed to claim until such time as they have contributed something to the state.

Now i am sure that there will be people who have exception, for example those who have a severe issue that means work is a complete non starter.
My wife suffers from ME, now i know there are people around who see this as a skivers desease, and trust me i have had a few arguments with people about this. She has worked for just shy of 20 years, has never taken anything in benefits, now my view is that she is entitled to have what she is entitled to and she should not be made to feel guilty for it as well, and the same goes for any genuine case as well.

On the other hands my stepson, who at one point had not done an days work in his life wanted to claim job seekers......there is no way on earth he should be entitled, up to this point he had only contributed  chaos and misery, he had put bugger all in the pot and so should be made to go and find a job before asking for benefits.

you see it in selected areas of Plymouth (and i am sure most other town and cities have the same) certain members of society who have never worked, they have kids screaming all over the place and there is a chance these kids will be the benefits claimants of tomorrow......

Now if todays claimant is breeding at a twofold rate and the next generation breed at the same rate, and the workforce diminishes where does that leave those who are working......

Supporting a system that will very quickly collapse

Rant over, i'll get me coat

[Martin_1962]

Yep totally agree.  Also sterilising the junkies would be another great idea so they can't have kid after kid to get more benefits and to stop another generation of little psychos emerging.

It does make me wonder what Darwin would think about the future prognosis for our gene pool. Soon they will be the only people in society who can afford to procreate.  

Kevin

We have helped a little to improve it with 3

[Martin_1962]

I have been unemployed through no fault of my own since april 10th.
so far I have not claimed a penny from the state as a matter of principle,as i believe that large chunks of the welfare state should be dismantled.
I have investigated the benifits system and i believe that if i was to play on the disability i have ,i could have a new car (motobility)and could get by on the benifits which i could claim.
I consider myself to be able to work for a while yet and that is what i intend to do.
i have applied for many jobs and not had so much as a reply from most of them,but i had an interview last week for a job (35 per cent less money than i was earning) and i am pinning my hopes on getting the job.
if i dont have a job by this time next week i will have no option but to claim benifits,if i do it will be with a heavy heart and probably tears in my eyes.
In short i largely agree with The Boy on this subject .there are many people in this country who have a reasonably comfortable existence by playing the benefits system.The government are doing these people no favours as they are removing the concepts of aspiration and ambition from them in their early years,and it of course causes resentment from taxpayers who are working to keep these families as well as their own.It also denies funds to genuinely sick and disabled people which is disgraceful.
I will start having some faith in the tory party when Dave (blair lite)cameron explains how he will stop this and reverse the hundreds of tax increases imposed in the last decade.
Personally I will believe it when i see it.
 

I have claimed benefits in the past and would again - they are a safety net I have paid into

[Banjax]

Me and Mrs Bann work hard and pay taxes and I can see people getting wound a bit tight - just relax......honestly lazy spongers know who they are - but the end of the day - its very low level crime - negligible compared to Euro MPs trousering millions for spurious "expenses", MP's "employing" family members, pointless wars, Arms trade Guarantees (heres the deal - you're a dictator who buys UK arms knowing full well that if you dont pay the UK company, the government BY LAW and with YOUR TAXES then pays them!!! we are such mugs)

I havent even touched on the billionaire "non-residents" who pay NO TAX (OK what is it? £35k a year? where does Roman et al find that kinda cash?)


theres corruption everywhere - but dole cheats arent the target - although they make an easy scapegoat along with immigrants - its lazy, its blinkered, and the powers that be LAUGH when the Daily Mail and the Sun chose those targets - while the REAL bandits get off scott free!!!!

[TheBoy]

And that is precisely the trouble with the benefits system!  Scrap it!  Make people go to work, if they don't, no money, no food, die.  The government are too bloody gay over the whole issue.  There are very few people in this country who are unable to work in one form or another.

i don't agree with scrapping it........

You're too liberal soft

[LaserLance]

this subject has stirred up a right hornets nest!!!!

[rickyboy]

It's been finally changed then.  Point being though - people who are capable of work and have no interest in working learn rather quickly how to sponge the system and you can make a healthy living from it.  I've heard plenty of them boasting about it.

Also plenty of them claiming credit on neighbours post codes etc.

Ah, so we have moved away from "brand new cars"

But how many is "plenty" ; 100% of 6 or 3% of 100 unemployed?  Or just the odd minority who are the criminally minded amoungst us anyway? :-? :-?

At any level of our society, top to bottom, there are people who "use" the system for their own ends to unfairly obtain advantage from the rest of us.     However it is dangerous to tar all unemployed with the same brush and condemn them, or anyone else for that matter, with bland general statements without hard facts to back it all up!

That is what the Nazis did against the Jews, the disabled, the sick, the trade unionists etc!!

Me getting heavy?  Well yes, but this is what prejudice does in society at the extreme, and reading through this "rant" it shows how easily prejudice can be stoked without true facts to back it all up; just "feelings" leading to "hate"!

I'm certainly not trying to tar every person that's unemployed with the same brush.  I've been unemployed for a very short time in my life (couple of months) and it was the most miserable time I've ever experienced.  

It depends on your circumstances if you will make a comfortable living from benefits.  For example my ex-girlfriends best friend was a single mother with two kids from different fathers.  She had a £20,000 loan which is now deferred and got a brand new 3 bedroom council house (and it didn't look like a council house) in a very nice area and made the same money as my ex and my wage put together at the end of the month.  She has bettered herself and now has a degree and is working but who's to say that there are others in the same position who feel they have no responsibility to play a part in making a fair and honest society who looks after others genuinely less fortunate.

Still remains a fact that I know 3 folk who have had brand new cars whilst unemployed long term - not a top of the range merc but a couple of fiat puntos and one with a vectra (bought in 2003).  I don't know what percent of unemployed people have brand new cars it would be ridiculous to think that I would and be able to get that information.

To be fair the one with the vectra was claiming disability for his diabetes.  He also added that he was perfectly capable of working and his previous job had been a very well paid IT job.  He gave up his job after working his whole life solidly for 30 odd years on the principle that he's contributed a lot of money to society through tax and is fed up having to work for others.  If you have high tax on your wage, you'll know that an obscene amount of money is given to the goverment from your wage every year.

We also have a stigma against low paid jobs in this country which is why you have people refusing to work in places like McDonalds.  It's widely regarded that the working class did not feel a sense of shame 50 odd years ago and were happy to have a job.  Our modern society is obsessed with having the right brand of clothes, the right car, the best watch etc, etc.  I've often wondered how someone on welfare can afford designer clothes, sky tv etc when I can't.

Most recent sponging scam which is a favourite among some of my workmates is to go to the doctor and say you're depressed they'll give you a sick line for as long as you want.  They are reluctant to refuse you one incase you genuinely are depressed and later top yourself.  Our company sick pay has now been changed from 3 months full pay to 10 days because of this.  I've taken one sick day off work in the last years and dread to think what would happen if I needed to be off sick long term

[Vamps]

  Believe me, it is for the best.

[Jay w]

And that is precisely the trouble with the benefits system!  Scrap it!  Make people go to work, if they don't, no money, no food, die.  The government are too bloody gay over the whole issue.  There are very few people in this country who are unable to work in one form or another.

i don't agree with scrapping it........

You're too liberal soft

if you heed someone to talk to we have a wide range of P.C. therapists who will be happy to listen to your issues

[LJay]

Believe me, it is for the best.

  me too!

[stuart30]

I feel for anyone who has a certain standard of living which is always determined by their income, and suddenly finds that this standard is being eroded through no fault of their own. Council workers, no matter how badly they think they are being treated, at least have some protection and the option to strike. Most people do not. Throughout the last 10 years we have all seen prices rise, but not wages. Spare a thought for the massive army of self-employed workers, and those, like me, who receive a small basic wage and rely on sales commission for the rest. My basic is £10k a year, the rest being made up of commission from cars sold. We used to sell 12/15 cars a week which more  than doubled my wage, nowadays we are selling 6 or 7 a week, my wages have plummeted, I can't strike,  I have no protection or guarantees,
no unions, no public sympathy. All of us will know building workers and HGV drivers who have been laid off, they are in a similar position. So please forgive me if I have few thoughts for council workers. None of those council workers  who received large payments for the difference in wages between male and female workers were complaining then, being able to retire early is also not an option for people like me. I am not trying to sound bitter or pompous but welcome to the real world economy, market forces will now determine civic pay. Despite council tax doubling in the last 10 years can any OOF member honestly say they receive a better service for the extra money?

Well in a nutshell if you find your final salary reduced and its not enough too get by on then why not simply find another job.

I do a job i honestly dont like....security is just about the most dead end proffesion you can find,i do it as it pays me enough too live on.

I work hard (no i dont but thats besides the point) and put extremely long hours in...avergae works out roughly £27,000 PA.

So really no one has any excuse about banging on about how hard done by they are...theres plenty of jobs out there.

[SheWhoMustNotBeOUTBID]

I have been on benefits.., and rather than having the money to buy alcohol/lottery tickets.., have lived on toast for weeks on end to feed my kids - and knowing i was feeding them badly at that.  I used a social fund loan to buy a part ex car from the local garage when I still lived with my also non working ex.., who drove, cause i have a son with special needs who has a habit of sitting on the pavement rather than walking anywhere. One of the reasons I was given taxi rides to the local child and family health place.  Its 40 mins away and half the time we didn't get there before they gave us access to taxi's for the appts (by then my ex and I had split up, I don't drive and can't afford to pay for a provisional - been trying for months to save the money up but something always comes up like bills and food and clothes for two kids).

I went on benefits after weeks of looking for work, paying a childminder I could not afford to lose cause I wouldn't be able to replace her because i was so determined to find work.  BUT once u get sucked into the benefits system (and believe it or not.., there IS no credit - except the social fund loan system which I paid back -  not even an overdraft if u are on benefits) and have to look at not getting paid for a month on a salaried job - while paying childcare costs and rent for two weeks etc.., knowing u are going to be earning £5 per hour while 'things' sort themselves out (in terms of getting tax credits etc) and it means u can't put even basic food on the table because u are working - u tend to think twice about going to work.

I'm sorry folks, but its not the easy life on benefits u think.  

And I guarantee - totally guarantee cause its happened, i would have lost any job I had cause of the fact I need to look after a two year old and a twelve year old with special needs - his special needs are not really bad but I never seem to get off the phone with his school and social workers and health professionals he see's trying to improve his quality of life and make him in the future self sufficient. I hate being called a scrounger.., but in a way I have been.  I'd love to not be.  U don't know how much.

[Kevin Wood]

I'm sorry folks, but its not the easy life on benefits u think.

I personally didn't mean to suggest it was, nor that there aren't people who deserve them and, in some cases, will rely on them long term.

My gripe is that as you say people get sucked in. The system gives you no thanks for taking the first steps to get back to work and it is this that is wrong. There should be awards every step of the way. If the system paid for childcare, transport, and everything else that facilitates the first steps back to work so that working gave people money in their pockets straight away I'm sure many people wouldn't be as reluctant to bother.

Kevin

[stuart30]

I have been on benefits.., and rather than having the money to buy alcohol/lottery tickets.., have lived on toast for weeks on end to feed my kids - and knowing i was feeding them badly at that.  I used a social fund loan to buy a part ex car from the local garage when I still lived with my also non working ex.., who drove, cause i have a son with special needs who has a habit of sitting on the pavement rather than walking anywhere. One of the reasons I was given taxi rides to the local child and family health place.  Its 40 mins away and half the time we didn't get there before they gave us access to taxi's for the appts (by then my ex and I had split up, I don't drive and can't afford to pay for a provisional - been trying for months to save the money up but something always comes up like bills and food and clothes for two kids).

I went on benefits after weeks of looking for work, paying a childminder I could not afford to lose cause I wouldn't be able to replace her because i was so determined to find work.  BUT once u get sucked into the benefits system (and believe it or not.., there IS no credit - except the social fund loan system which I paid back -  not even an overdraft if u are on benefits) and have to look at not getting paid for a month on a salaried job - while paying childcare costs and rent for two weeks etc.., knowing u are going to be earning £5 per hour while 'things' sort themselves out (in terms of getting tax credits etc) and it means u can't put even basic food on the table because u are working - u tend to think twice about going to work.

I'm sorry folks, but its not the easy life on benefits u think.  

Im sorry too say for every genuine case im sure theres dozens that are not...sounds like you had a tuff time.

I personally know of 3 girls (slob pint drinking heffers) that left school and have never worked (im 34) due too WANTING a kid (partner not wanted) because they would be housed and paid too sit at home doing sweet fanny adams.

Openly admit they will never work...and when the social try and force them suddenly down doctors with stress and depression.

Low life scum should have kids taken off them and thrown out in the street.

[SheWhoMustNotBeOUTBID]

I do totally agree Kevin, if even I could have a guarantee that tax credits would be worked out in time to help.., I'd have happily lived on a £5 an hour job just to reduce the benefits burden I have placed on the system in the past.  If only I could guarantee my son wouldn't throw a major paddy and refuse to attend school because of his special needs (he gets teased a lot because he is a little different in some ways).  The thought of going thru that 'losing jobs' scenario again is not a good thought.  

Its the daft things that get you.  I used a social fund loan to pay for a sewing machine.., cheap one and unfortunately it was useless so had to go back.  Was thinking i could work at home on a self employed basis.  Eventually got a refund, and then both my ancient tv's (bought when both my ex and I were working) broke within two weeks so I had to spend the money on an expensive TV.  Even considered that extortionate buy as u rent scheme so could still get a replacment but better sewing machine.., but couldn't live with throwing £1k away in extortionate interest rates.  So now I start again.  I will get there but when i don't know lol.    

[willyboy]

I'm 64 and at the moment living of my company pension that i payed into for like 30yrs, have never been unemployed until 2005 when I was offered early retirement through ill health anyway I got Inc Benefit for about a year plus a well reduced one as I had a pension, I worked about 6mths got no help what so ever from the DWP( they just said your fit now get a job) found my own job not easy at 62+ being an ex HGV driver(failed medical for HGV) but then found out I needed another hip replacement had one already to go with my existing heart problem, I now get Inc Benefit again to the massive amount of £26 /week its just gone up,to that !!! now i have paid all my life into this POT but there's now too many who aint paid ought in taking a big chunk out now that does piss me off , so if you planned & saved & worked most your life you will find it bloody hard to get ought out of the system when you get older believe me..BUT if you hav'nt worked or you have nowt you get every benefit going or so it seems to me its a joke system   unless your an MP  

[TheBoy]

You're too liberal soft

if you heed someone to talk to we have a wide range of P.C. therapists who will be happy to listen to your issues
[/quote]
If they start spouting crap, can I thump them?

[theowletman]

I feel for anyone who has a certain standard of living which is always determined by their income, and suddenly finds that this standard is being eroded through no fault of their own. Council workers, no matter how badly they think they are being treated, at least have some protection and the option to strike. Most people do not. Throughout the last 10 years we have all seen prices rise, but not wages. Spare a thought for the massive army of self-employed workers, and those, like me, who receive a small basic wage and rely on sales commission for the rest. My basic is £10k a year, the rest being made up of commission from cars sold. We used to sell 12/15 cars a week which more  than doubled my wage, nowadays we are selling 6 or 7 a week, my wages have plummeted, I can't strike,  I have no protection or guarantees,
no unions, no public sympathy. All of us will know building workers and HGV drivers who have been laid off, they are in a similar position. So please forgive me if I have few thoughts for council workers. None of those council workers  who received large payments for the difference in wages between male and female workers were complaining then, being able to retire early is also not an option for people like me. I am not trying to sound bitter or pompous but welcome to the real world economy, market forces will now determine civic pay. Despite council tax doubling in the last 10 years can any OOF member honestly say they receive a better service for the extra money?

Well in a nutshell if you find your final salary reduced and its not enough too get by on then why not simply find another job.

I do a job i honestly dont like....security is just about the most dead end proffesion you can find,i do it as it pays me enough too live on.

I work hard (no i dont but thats besides the point) and put extremely long hours in...avergae works out roughly £27,000 PA.

So really no one has any excuse about banging on about how hard done by they are...theres plenty of jobs out there.

I think my original reply has been hijacked when the post was split by the administrators. my reply was to a post about the downgrading of council posts and the subsequent wage losses. My point was that many non council workers are in a similar position without the benefit of wage protection/unions etc. Your £27k for security work may be obtainable in Huntingdon, but not here in the North East. £27k will be a skilled IT job / welder fabricator or similar. Again my point was that due to the economic downturn my wages have suffered, partly due to fuel prices, partly due to this car hating government. As for " there are plenty of jobs out there " even the Poles are quitting the North East, not that we had many anyway!!! Our local Evening paper used to have a supplement on a Thursday with 800 jobs in it, last week there were 200. It isn't all doom and gloom though, we live in a beautiful uncrowded area with relatively low crime and reasonable house prices, so perhaps we should be grateful. During my 33 year unbroken working career I have travelled/stayed/lodged all over the UK and I would not take a Kings Ransom to move very far from here, except perhaps for Oz or Canada and even then I would want a good look at them first.

[FRE07962128]

 

I have been on benefits.., and rather than having the money to buy alcohol/lottery tickets.., have lived on toast for weeks on end to feed my kids - and knowing i was feeding them badly at that.  I used a social fund loan to buy a part ex car from the local garage when I still lived with my also non working ex.., who drove, cause i have a son with special needs who has a habit of sitting on the pavement rather than walking anywhere. One of the reasons I was given taxi rides to the local child and family health place.  Its 40 mins away and half the time we didn't get there before they gave us access to taxi's for the appts (by then my ex and I had split up, I don't drive and can't afford to pay for a provisional - been trying for months to save the money up but something always comes up like bills and food and clothes for two kids).

I went on benefits after weeks of looking for work, paying a childminder I could not afford to lose cause I wouldn't be able to replace her because i was so determined to find work.  BUT once u get sucked into the benefits system (and believe it or not.., there IS no credit - except the social fund loan system which I paid back -  not even an overdraft if u are on benefits) and have to look at not getting paid for a month on a salaried job - while paying childcare costs and rent for two weeks etc.., knowing u are going to be earning £5 per hour while 'things' sort themselves out (in terms of getting tax credits etc) and it means u can't put even basic food on the table because u are working - u tend to think twice about going to work.

I'm sorry folks, but its not the easy life on benefits u think.  

And I guarantee - totally guarantee cause its happened, i would have lost any job I had cause of the fact I need to look after a two year old and a twelve year old with special needs - his special needs are not really bad but I never seem to get off the phone with his school and social workers and health professionals he see's trying to improve his quality of life and make him in the future self sufficient. I hate being called a scrounger.., but in a way I have been.  I'd love to not be.  U don't know how much.

This is exactly swmbowithattitude what I was trying to impart by my few postings on this subject!

Throughout my work involving a mental health trust, the police,  and generally "out there" in real life situations involving REAL families in dire straights, I find NO-ONE who finds life on benefits easy; they are forever desparately seeking ways to pay for their basic needs; food, gas, electric, water rates, let alone clothing there kids on VERY limited income.  When they can get "credit" it is either in the form of a "Crisis Loan" from DSS that will be paid back by weekly deductions from their Income Support payments, or from "Provident" loans and the like that charge astronomical interest rates (i.e. Provident 168% APR; and that is one of the lowest!!)  As they are poor they are made poorer by this, and the fact that they often have to pay the highest charges for many necessities (i.e. electric & gas pre-payment meters).

I have been employed for 40+ years, and in my time paid, along with my ex, the highest levels of tax possible due to a very healthy income, with often a great life style. We both worked crippling hours, often over 6 days of the week, whilst maintaining a family and a home, with life never 'easy'.  However I would never begrudge any genuine case their welfare payments and support whilst they are in trouble, especially those who will never be blessed as I was so blessed.  

I am not talking about the minority of youngsters who decide to never work, NO!  But the genuine weak must be helped by the strong in a good and fair society, and although I am a Conservative in many respects, I do fully subscribe to the Welfare System and certain aspects of Marxist philosophy.  We must never again have thousands of starving, homeless, and penniless men, women and especially children on our streets as it was before the reforms of the nineteenth century, and especially during the main years of the Industrial Revolution (1750-1850).

As for the "Capitalist" system that we all work for, just remember that we work hard to earn a crust, whilst those at the top earn a fortune from our sweat.  When we fall ill, often due to our working and general life conditions, "their" system, hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc., is in place to repair you, with some welfare assistance, and once  better throw you back into the "cycle" of work and production.  The capitalist system survives on us, or at least enough of us, providing the labour and maintaining the money supply to the top of the pile, the leaders of our "animal kingdom", to keep them in their ivory tower, with riches, whilst we worry about paying the basic household bills.  But their system is maintained and we can do little to change it....yet!

Can you blame anyone who genuinely falls ill from claiming what they can from "the system" that has caused so often their illness; even if it is just due to excessive hours, stress, bullying (such as with currently council workers!), bad working conditions, etc?  A system that, at the lower end at least, stiffles human creativity, restricts their personal freedom, and throws them out once no longer wanted.

So before we all target the poor (in more ways than with just pure "wealth" standards) of our society and those very few who MAY have found a way to "use" the sytem to their benefit, with our rantings, attack first the causes and reasons why our capitalist system exists, the damage it causes to fellow human beings, and those with a very real interest to keep it all going!

Life is never fair, but could be a lot fairer for all if mankind was not so greedy, nasty, brutal and self centred!

[Andy B]

 ......
 I find NO-ONE who finds life on benefits easy; they are forever desparately seeking ways to pay for their basic needs; food, gas, electric, water rates, let alone clothing there kids on VERY limited income. .......

There is though always an exception that breaks the rule.
Lizzy Bardsley