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Author Topic: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...  (Read 1514 times)

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Doctor Gollum

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What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« on: 31 July 2022, 18:31:38 »

Basically, the offending item gets unplugged if plugged in, smothered using a BCF fire extinguisher, and them put into a toilet bin or galley canister and flooded with water to cool it somewhat.

It then gets popped into a toilet and monitored for the rest of the flight. Toilet compartments being largely fireproof and fitted with a smoke detector.

Any hold fire is suppressed by the hold fire systems, and immediately diverted, followed by a potential evacuation.

So that's that ;)
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #1 on: 01 August 2022, 08:27:39 »

And what if it's the Dreamliner's own batteries.....

(Though I believe Boeing have mostly overcome that now).


As a pleb passenger, I have noticed the inconsistencies of airlines when it comes to lithium batteries.  Obviously, many electronics devices like phones, tablets, laptops, watches, electric razors, cordless hair straighteners and so on are lithium...   ...but do owners know?

Also, airlines seem to be inconsistent in the maximum capacity battery they allow - some being 100kWhr, some being 150, some not even stating it.

Some will allow any size if its an appliance. ie, I'm not allowed to take a >100kWhr battery on a plane, but if I wire an LED up to it so it becomes a torch, I can.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #2 on: 01 August 2022, 17:22:48 »

And what if it's the Dreamliner's own batteries.....

(Though I believe Boeing have mostly overcome that now).


As a pleb passenger, I have noticed the inconsistencies of airlines when it comes to lithium batteries.  Obviously, many electronics devices like phones, tablets, laptops, watches, electric razors, cordless hair straighteners and so on are lithium...   ...but do owners know?

Also, airlines seem to be inconsistent in the maximum capacity battery they allow - some being 100kWhr, some being 150, some not even stating it.

Some will allow any size if its an appliance. ie, I'm not allowed to take a >100kWhr battery on a plane, but if I wire an LED up to it so it becomes a torch, I can.
The above is purely what you do for a Portable Electronic Device issue. In the cabin.

What happens under the floor is largely SEP...

ie Someone Else's Problem. Until the time comes to get off.  :D
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #3 on: 02 August 2022, 13:41:19 »

But it would be nice if airlines banged their heads together an had some consistency, as more and more people will be taking larger and larger batteries on board...   ...and usually in cabin luggage, as thats what most airlines seem to (understandably) want.
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LC0112G

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #4 on: 02 August 2022, 14:17:37 »

I carry on a camera bag, containing 3 cameras each with their own 1800mAh battery, and typically 6 spare batteries. They're nominally 7.2V. That's about 16Ah , or 120Kw of lithium waiting to go up in smoke. They're all in the same bag, so if one goes up it'll take the others with it shortly thereafter.

IATA says this : https://www.iata.org/contentassets/6fea26dd84d24b26a7a1fd5788561d6e/passenger-lithium-battery.pdf

Looks like IATA allows you to carry up to 20 separate batteries in hand luggage.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #5 on: 02 August 2022, 17:09:35 »

Does anyone know what has come of investigations into the cargo manifest of missing airliner MH370 which apparently included 200 units of lithium ion batteries, as a 'consolidated consignment' weighing a total of 2453kg, which MAY have contributed to whatever overcame the passengers and crew? ??? ???

In yet another recent documentry, this factor in the mix of possible answers was repeated by an avaition 'expert'.

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Doctor Gollum

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #6 on: 02 August 2022, 17:34:59 »

I still suspect that aircraft was landed in Diego Garcia and scrapped shortly after.

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #7 on: 02 August 2022, 17:40:33 »

I carry on a camera bag, containing 3 cameras each with their own 1800mAh battery, and typically 6 spare batteries. They're nominally 7.2V. That's about 16Ah , or 120Kw of lithium waiting to go up in smoke. They're all in the same bag, so if one goes up it'll take the others with it shortly thereafter.

IATA says this : https://www.iata.org/contentassets/6fea26dd84d24b26a7a1fd5788561d6e/passenger-lithium-battery.pdf

Looks like IATA allows you to carry up to 20 separate batteries in hand luggage.
Scroll down this for the FAA guidelines on mobility equipment on aircraft.

300w/h seems to be the top end.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #8 on: 02 August 2022, 18:33:20 »

Does anyone know what has come of investigations into the cargo manifest of missing airliner MH370 which apparently included 200 units of lithium ion batteries, as a 'consolidated consignment' weighing a total of 2453kg, which MAY have contributed to whatever overcame the passengers and crew? ??? ???

In yet another recent documentry, this factor in the mix of possible answers was repeated by an avaition 'expert'.

Whilst no-one with any sense can say it's impossible, it is vanishingly unlikely.

The basic facts are No mayday call, no attempt to descend if lack of oxygen was becoming an issue, several changes of flight direction (but no change in flight level) so it flew along the boundaries of various countries airspace thus defeating normal civil radar control principles of who was in ATC control. Flight data (from satellites) lasting 8 hours.

What possible method is there for a plane to continue flying for 8 hours if the only 'fault' with it is that something in the hold is on fire? The plane will either disintegrate in the air leaving wreckage everywhere, or it'll depressurise (but stay together) due to a melted hole in the skin. If it depressurises at FL350, then everyone will be dead in a few minutes unless the plane descends to below FL150 quickly. It didn't.

Even if both flight deck crew somehow become incapacitated, there is a way for cabin crew to gain access to the (locked) cockpit. A cockpit crew, if conscious, can prevent cabin crew gaining access. If the passengers were aware of what was going on, one of them would have used a mobile phone to try and raise the alarm - just like on 9/11.

IMV one pilot and all the passengers & cabin crew were dead (from hypoxia) shortly after the non-existent hand over to Vietnam. One of the cockpit crew had been locked out by the other one. The remaining cockpit crew then flew the plane off into oblivion.

The only remaining questions are which pilot, and why.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #9 on: 02 August 2022, 19:42:52 »

It would have crashed on course (perhaps not the planned one), and ended up over Pakistan or so...

Flight deck access is a non issue. Saying no more on that.

And the 777 has an oxygen ring main in addition to the drop down Hydrogen peroxide generators and portable oxygen.

In hold fire drills, the ditching time is 15 minutes... Land the aircraft whilst you can, regardless of where that is. Same for explosive decompression... which may or may not have been the result of said fire.

Also, from an engineering stand point as the cabin altitude climbs there are several things that would have happened as a result, including the cabin masks deploying. Some of which may be a direct result of the Helios incident.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #10 on: 02 August 2022, 20:12:53 »

Thanks LCO112G and DG for your detailed explanations, which certainly are creditable reasons why that cargo, if present, was not the cause of MH370’s strange disappearance.

I certainly have reached a judgement after watching the various documentaries that the pilot(s) are the prime suspects, but will we ever know? :(
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #11 on: 02 August 2022, 20:36:33 »

Certainly, if it had exploded at altitude, then there would literally be bits of it everywhere.

And the wings are effective until either air stops going over them or the separate. Either way, there would literally be bits everywhere.

Look at any airliner in recent history that was known to crash into the sea accidentally or otherwise, has left bits behind. Even the Air France Airbus that basically nose dived into the sea of Brazil left debris.

The pilot suicide on the Egypt Air 767 left whole chunks of aircraft behind.

The Egypt Air A320 that crashed in the Med... Same.

In fact the only way to completely disappear something the size of a 777 is to drive it into a tower block or dismantle it. And one of those would make the news.

Incidentally, I would probably avoid Egypt Air...  :-X

And Air France for that matter...
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LC0112G

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #12 on: 02 August 2022, 20:59:55 »

I believe Air France actually tail dived into the oggin, but that's nit-pickey and yes agree on all the basic conclusions.

Except dismantling at Diego Garcia (or Guam or any similar place). Zero chance that happened IMV. Every govt and commercial satellite operator was looking for evidence of what happened within hours of it being reported missing, and places like those were (and are) well covered. None of those places have hangars large enough to hide a B777.

Look at GE for Diego Garcia. Those 4 hangars on the south end ramp are B-2 'peanut' hangars like the one at RAF Fairford. A B-2 is less than 70 feet long with a 172 feet span. A B777 is nearly 210 feet long with a similar wing span. No way is a B777 fitting into any of those hangars.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #13 on: 02 August 2022, 21:20:10 »

Oh - and - The "Miracle on the Hudson" did show it is possible to land a modern airliner (ok it was an A320 not a Boeing) on water and keep the aircraft basically in one piece. That airframe is now in a museum in Charlotte North Carolina.

If the plane basically "lands" in one piece on water, in the middle of the Indian ocean, then it'll sink in one piece and finding more than a few fragments that break off during the landing
will be verging on impossible. Sure some bits will break off during the landing, but then again, some bits have been found in Madagascar and the East coast of Africa.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #14 on: 02 August 2022, 22:19:35 »

I believe Air France actually tail dived into the oggin, but that's nit-pickey and yes agree on all the basic conclusions.

Except dismantling at Diego Garcia (or Guam or any similar place). Zero chance that happened IMV. Every govt and commercial satellite operator was looking for evidence of what happened within hours of it being reported missing, and places like those were (and are) well covered. None of those places have hangars large enough to hide a B777.

Look at GE for Diego Garcia. Those 4 hangars on the south end ramp are B-2 'peanut' hangars like the one at RAF Fairford. A B-2 is less than 70 feet long with a 172 feet span. A B777 is nearly 210 feet long with a similar wing span. No way is a B777 fitting into any of those hangars.
Ignoring for a moment who owns the satellites :)
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #15 on: 02 August 2022, 22:28:55 »

Ooo I love a good conspiracy theory!  :y

I heard that Elvis was the co-pilot, Princess Diana was one of the Trolley Dollies and Shergar was on the menu!  :D
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LC0112G

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #16 on: 02 August 2022, 22:44:03 »

I believe Air France actually tail dived into the oggin, but that's nit-pickey and yes agree on all the basic conclusions.

Except dismantling at Diego Garcia (or Guam or any similar place). Zero chance that happened IMV. Every govt and commercial satellite operator was looking for evidence of what happened within hours of it being reported missing, and places like those were (and are) well covered. None of those places have hangars large enough to hide a B777.

Look at GE for Diego Garcia. Those 4 hangars on the south end ramp are B-2 'peanut' hangars like the one at RAF Fairford. A B-2 is less than 70 feet long with a 172 feet span. A B777 is nearly 210 feet long with a similar wing span. No way is a B777 fitting into any of those hangars.
Ignoring for a moment who owns the satellites :)

Close to a dozen countries own sovereign spy satellites, and there are dozens of privately operated ones too. The nutters good people over at Dreamland Resort regularly book spy satellites to take pictures of Area51 hoping to catch something/anything out in the open. Of course the USAF know the satellites are coming, so they hide anything really secret, but civil B737's are still regularly seen there.

However, there is nowhere to hide something the size of a B777 at Diego Garcia, and no chance that Russia, China, and probably India aren't keeping a 24/7 eye on what is going on there. If you really believe the UK, USA, Russia, China and India and others are in on some conspiracy to hide what really happened to a Malaysian aircraft, then I'm afraid there is no helping you.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #17 on: 03 August 2022, 08:11:01 »

OK then, where is it?
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #18 on: 03 August 2022, 11:32:48 »

OK then, where is it?

In one piece, at the bottom of the Indian ocean somewhere.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #19 on: 03 August 2022, 14:13:55 »

Oh - and - The "Miracle on the Hudson" did show it is possible to land a modern airliner (ok it was an A320 not a Boeing) on water and keep the aircraft basically in one piece. That airframe is now in a museum in Charlotte North Carolina.

If the plane basically "lands" in one piece on water, in the middle of the Indian ocean, then it'll sink in one piece and finding more than a few fragments that break off during the landing
will be verging on impossible. Sure some bits will break off during the landing, but then again, some bits have been found in Madagascar and the East coast of Africa.

You mean like these in this report:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/08/asia/mh370-debris-found/index.html

I have been particulary interested in the wing flap that avaition experts have identified as coming from the MH370 flight, and was apparently in the down, for landing, position as it is damaged along its trailing edge as though in fast contact with the sea that would not habe been possible if it had been in the normal cruising flight position.

 ;)
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #20 on: 03 August 2022, 23:21:47 »

The miracle on the Hudson is misleading...

1. The river was relatively flat.
2. The aircraft was relatively slow.
3. The aircraft was relatively low.

So basically, the impact bent the engine pylons and put a few dents in the belly, but nothing more. The only reason it partly sank was due the load trim making it sit tail down in the water.

For a more accurate picture of what happens when you actually try to land a wide body jet on open water in a deliberate manner, a much better case study would be the hijacked Ethiopian 767. Which broke up having dipped a wingtip. And that was a best case no fuel controlled ditching. Look also at the state of the BA 777 that landed short at Heathrow. And that landed on soft mud.

It simply isn't feasible that the only debris off an aircraft that size is part of one flap and a fairing panel.

The Air France aircraft my have hit tail first but it was still being driven forwards... Just not quickly enough to make the wings work with the lift devices in cruise mode. Had they dropped the flaps ten degrees they may have saved the aircraft, but even now Air France has some serious issues with its CRM procedures.
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LC0112G

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #21 on: 04 August 2022, 00:13:42 »

I would counter that by stating that the B767 first flight was 1981.  A320 was 1987. B777 was 1994. B777 is a much newer design than B767 using composites. B767 is an old style aluminium plane - (which is one reason why Boeing chose it for KC-46). Not difficult to believe a B767 and B777 will break up in different ways.

Hopefully a B777 will behave much more like an A320 than a B767 in a crash. The only way to find out for sure if it's possible to land a B777 on water without it breaking up is to try it. No-one is going to do that - even remote controlled. 

Yes the miracle on the Hudson was on flat water. The area where MAS370 is believed to have gone down also had relatively benign weather that day. However, since we don't know exactly where that was it's impossible to know the sea state with any accuracy.

Landing speed of a B777 is 135kts/155MPH. Landing speed for an A320 is 140-150kts.  Providing there is a pilot in control, and he configures the plane for a wheels up landing, there is no reason to think speed would be very much different.

Altitude is irrelavent as long as there is a pilot in control. The plane may well glide like a brick, but the hydraulics still work with both engines switched off, so the pilot can control the descent and choose where to land (crash!). Deadstick landings have been completed many times - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Most of the damage on the BA B777 was caused by the wheels ripping through the wings and fusealge. If the wheels weren't down that would not have happened (not suggesting they shouldn't have lowered the gear). The fuselage was basically intact - barring the damage from the wheels. If that had happened on water, almost all the airframe would sink to the bottom. Only the lighter than water parts that did break off would be found.

AIUI the Air France aircraft was 'flying' in a roughly 45 degrees nose up attitude, all the way from FL370 down to (almost) FL000. A fighter jet has enough engine power to maintain altitude in this attitude. An airliner doesn't. The flight control computer stopped the aircraft stalling, but the pilot was trying to pull the nose 'up' almost all the way to impact.

Anyway - need to go to bed - gotta get up early tomorrow to go see 12 F-22A's :-)
« Last Edit: 04 August 2022, 00:15:53 by LC0112G »
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #22 on: 04 August 2022, 07:34:35 »

Yep, speed is pretty much a constant if you want a controlled "landing". You need enough to allow the wings to take the weight of the aircraft right up to the point that the water takes over that role, but no more, since that's just extra energy to take into the crash. This sort of fully held off landing is not the way you'd normally land an airliner, but exactly how you land a glider or any other light aircraft. In that respect, actually, the Hudson landing was probably worse off as I'm guessing the aircraft was heavy, having just taken off and not having jettisoned fuel, so it would have needed more speed.

Calm water was probably the biggest factor, as with even the normal swell of an ocean it would be a challenge to land an aircraft with absolute symmetry as Sully did.Hit one engine or wingtip even milliseconds before the other and you have the Ethiopian 767. :(

Also, the bigger the span, the more difficult it is to keep the thing level. Ask any glider pilot that! The 777 has a distinct disadvantage over the A320 there!
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #23 on: 04 August 2022, 10:14:36 »

The BA 777 was configured for a standard landing, which relies on thrust to maintain the airspeed. Even with slightly reduced flaps, it touched down at around 100knots, instead of the normal 135kts, with an impact of 2.9g once the main gear dug in, having been un powered from 700ft. Had it landed 1,000ft further on, then it would have been a relatively normal roll out.

Conversly the Air Transat A330 that 'ran out' of fuel mid cruise, had enough altitude to glide 75miles and touch down at 200knts, significantly faster than normal. Whilst it didn't rip the gear of, it did severely damage it and and the airframe.

Altitude buys time. And time creates options and opportunities.

Also, the 777 is a 'traditional' airframe, as is the Airbus, heavily utilising aluminium composites for the skin

By contrast, the 787 is a spun carbon fibre composite and a very different beast. And having been about as far away as you are from your screen from the framing of several aircraft, the Dreamliner is an F1 car being compared to a truck when stacked up against the older aircraft.
The 777 was a technological game changer in 1994 when it came to operating and control systems, but not the fundamental design.  ;)
« Last Edit: 04 August 2022, 10:31:21 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #24 on: 04 August 2022, 20:29:02 »

The BA 777 was configured for a standard landing, which relies on thrust to maintain the airspeed. Even with slightly reduced flaps, it touched down at around 100knots, instead of the normal 135kts, with an impact of 2.9g once the main gear dug in, having been un powered from 700ft. Had it landed 1,000ft further on, then it would have been a relatively normal roll out.

Conversly the Air Transat A330 that 'ran out' of fuel mid cruise, had enough altitude to glide 75miles and touch down at 200knts, significantly faster than normal. Whilst it didn't rip the gear of, it did severely damage it and and the airframe.

Altitude buys time. And time creates options and opportunities.

Also, the 777 is a 'traditional' airframe, as is the Airbus, heavily utilising aluminium composites for the skin

By contrast, the 787 is a spun carbon fibre composite and a very different beast. And having been about as far away as you are from your screen from the framing of several aircraft, the Dreamliner is an F1 car being compared to a truck when stacked up against the older aircraft.
The 777 was a technological game changer in 1994 when it came to operating and control systems, but not the fundamental design.  ;)

I'm actively avoiding B787 flights. Had one from Chicago to LHR. I like a window seat, so I can look out at the airfields below. However, the B787 has photochromatic windows rather than ordinary pull down blinds. The cabin crew can and do force the windows to 'blackout' and the passenger cannot override it. Therefore even if you do get a window seat, you can't actually see out. Useless. B777 and A330/380 for me every time. Not flown A350 yet.
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #25 on: 04 August 2022, 21:32:22 »

Will have to see what, if anything, type training says on the subject of windows...

I know that they can be shut in hot climates between flights to help regulate cabin temps,

Possibly something done on early evening flights to accelerate the night time for eastbound flights :-\

One of my fondest flying memories thus far, was being able to look down from L5 on the 747 as we turned over New Yoik to head down the coast to Miami on a clear December night. Everything was visible from the Statue of Liberty and WTC. Even Central Park was clear to see 8)
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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #26 on: 04 August 2022, 21:52:57 »

Climbing out of Sydney's Kingsford Smith airport bound for Auckland I had a fantastic and unexpected view of Sydney Harbour and the Opera House from my right hand window seat as the plane banked around.  :y

Sorry no idea what type of plane it was.  :-[  ;D
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LC0112G

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #27 on: 05 August 2022, 09:33:23 »

Climbing out of Sydney's Kingsford Smith airport bound for Auckland I had a fantastic and unexpected view of Sydney Harbour and the Opera House from my right hand window seat as the plane banked around.  :y

Sorry no idea what type of plane it was.  :-[  ;D

Yes, depending on weather you can 'do' Australia on the flight. Inbound over Alice Springs so you can tick off Ayers Rock/Uluru and on approach to SYD you can see the Harbor bridge and Opera House. Hardly worth getting off the plane and risking the spiders, snakes, sharks and killer Koalas.:y
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LC0112G

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #28 on: 05 August 2022, 09:40:24 »

Will have to see what, if anything, type training says on the subject of windows...

I know that they can be shut in hot climates between flights to help regulate cabin temps,

Possibly something done on early evening flights to accelerate the night time for eastbound flights :-\

One of my fondest flying memories thus far, was being able to look down from L5 on the 747 as we turned over New Yoik to head down the coast to Miami on a clear December night. Everything was visible from the Statue of Liberty and WTC. Even Central Park was clear to see 8)

There weren't any hard pull down/up blinds at all on this B787 - which was American Airlines. Just these photochromatic windows. There was an up/down switch below them which was supposed to increase and decrease the windows opacity, but they had been turned off by the crew so they could control them all from the front. Yes it was an overnight flight, and yes that was the reason given. But if it's dark outside anyway.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: What happens to Lithium Fires on planes...
« Reply #29 on: 05 August 2022, 10:59:37 »

They're a standard 787 feature, but what do you expect from American ;D

My first JFK is scheduled on a 777 and is a mid evening return. Assuming of course that the Heathrow ID centre cba to get my ID ready in time :-X
« Last Edit: 05 August 2022, 11:03:11 by Doctor Gollum »
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Onanists always think outside the box.
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