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Author Topic: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour  (Read 4891 times)

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pscocoa

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Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« on: 25 July 2022, 17:26:32 »

Been very quiet on car front and no real issues with Astra 2012 since I got it 7.5 years ago.  But on the very hot day last week instruments went haywire, codes could not be read as no communication with AA equipment. Abs and gearbox fault lights on. Taken to main dealer who having left it a few days as they were fully booked saying today car is driving normally and they can read codes and no faults showing. Battery tested,  alternator charging ok etc. They will test again tomorrow. Weird - told them to test on uphill as the problem seemed to happen when load placed on engine and transmission
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #1 on: 25 July 2022, 17:50:25 »

Climate change innit.  :)
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dave the builder

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #2 on: 25 July 2022, 23:11:41 »

Computers , ECUs etc don't like extreme heat and throw a wobbly
Engine ECU is under the bonnet on many astras  :'(
If it's OK now after "turning it off and on again" I wouldn't spend too much time and money chasing ghosts .

though I hear we have a 2 week heatwave due mid August  :P
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #3 on: 26 July 2022, 08:53:27 »

Thanks Dave - it was still behaving erratically even when left over night. I got it down to dealers with AA following and several warnings showing- dealer wasn’t able to touch it for a few days and when they did no codes showing at all. If it is as you say regarding ECU and heat then I suppose they will ring me after further road test today to ask me to pick it up. Surprised others not reporting similar problems from what I can see.
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #4 on: 26 July 2022, 09:25:44 »

Underbonnet temps easily exceed 40 degrees. The problem is most likely in the dash somewhere... But it will throw all its toys out thanks to the way Canbus works.  ;)

Are you still leaving it in the station carpark all day? Or is it otherwise left in the sun :-\
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #5 on: 26 July 2022, 13:29:23 »

Been very quiet on car front and no real issues with Astra 2012 since I got it 7.5 years ago.  But on the very hot day last week instruments went haywire, codes could not be read as no communication with AA equipment. Abs and gearbox fault lights on. Taken to main dealer who having left it a few days as they were fully booked saying today car is driving normally and they can read codes and no faults showing. Battery tested,  alternator charging ok etc. They will test again tomorrow. Weird - told them to test on uphill as the problem seemed to happen when load placed on engine and transmission

Did it happen whilst stood or whilst driving?
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VXL V6

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #6 on: 26 July 2022, 14:39:55 »

Only time I can recall seeing anything like that situation was when an alternator was failing on one of my cars
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STEMO

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #7 on: 26 July 2022, 15:55:32 »

Been very quiet on car front and no real issues with Astra 2012 since I got it 7.5 years ago.  But on the very hot day last week instruments went haywire, codes could not be read as no communication with AA equipment. Abs and gearbox fault lights on. Taken to main dealer who having left it a few days as they were fully booked saying today car is driving normally and they can read codes and no faults showing. Battery tested,  alternator charging ok etc. They will test again tomorrow. Weird - told them to test on uphill as the problem seemed to happen when load placed on engine and transmission

Did it happen whilst stood or whilst driving?
Going uphill  ;D
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #8 on: 26 July 2022, 19:22:18 »

Underbonnet temps easily exceed 40 degrees. The problem is most likely in the dash somewhere... But it will throw all its toys out thanks to the way Canbus works.  ;)

Are you still leaving it in the station carpark all day? Or is it otherwise left in the sun :-\

I retired 3 years ago so no car park issue. It was stood for a couple of hours in height of afternoon heat but nothing excessive..
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #9 on: 26 July 2022, 19:25:08 »

Been very quiet on car front and no real issues with Astra 2012 since I got it 7.5 years ago.  But on the very hot day last week instruments went haywire, codes could not be read as no communication with AA equipment. Abs and gearbox fault lights on. Taken to main dealer who having left it a few days as they were fully booked saying today car is driving normally and they can read codes and no faults showing. Battery tested,  alternator charging ok etc. They will test again tomorrow. Weird - told them to test on uphill as the problem seemed to happen when load placed on engine and transmission

Did it happen whilst stood or whilst driving?
Going uphill  ;D

Yes - it has happened twice going uphill. The Eden Camberley workshop manager is taking it home to Guildford tonight - some hills to cope with.  See what tomorrow brings.
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #10 on: 27 July 2022, 14:58:27 »

Seems Dave was right - car was ok on all hills with 20 mile road test. When I went to pick it up guy on reception said that they had quite a few customers in during the 2 hot days with weird things happening.
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STEMO

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #11 on: 27 July 2022, 15:02:54 »

Seems Dave was right - car was ok on all hills with 20 mile road test. When I went to pick it up guy on reception said that they had quite a few customers in during the 2 hot days with weird things happening.
Good result, Phil  :y
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #12 on: 27 July 2022, 15:27:52 »

Seems Dave was right - car was ok on all hills with 20 mile road test. When I went to pick it up guy on reception said that they had quite a few customers in during the 2 hot days with weird things happening.
Good result, Phil  :y

Cheers Steve - I can see you have been on top form.
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #13 on: 27 July 2022, 16:02:22 »

It won't be engine ecu, it might be instruments, but I expect you to seer this happen again at some point

Engine bay temps vary very little between hot and warm days (for the obvious reasons) for info, as the primary heat source is at a controlled temperature and much hotter than even the higest ambient temperatures
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TheBoy

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #14 on: 28 July 2022, 10:18:56 »

I thought all car manufacturers do extreme climate tests on cars, and mostly use the same components on the cars, no matter what the market.

And it wasn't that hot really.  Hot for the UK, but 45C isn't unheard of in the Med, and the Astra is a fairly common car there...
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #15 on: 28 July 2022, 16:33:21 »

I thought all car manufacturers do extreme climate tests on cars, and mostly use the same components on the cars, no matter what the market.

And it wasn't that hot really.  Hot for the UK, but 45C isn't unheard of in the Med, and the Astra is a fairly common car there...

Temperatures in the IP area can hit 75 degC in the middle east midday sun, just under the roof its 85degC so not, what we had is not hot at all.

I expect the Intrument panel might be loose in its fixed connector, or a wire has rubber through and shorting out.
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #16 on: 28 July 2022, 17:39:52 »

Damn - it did it again today- managed to get it to Eden with fault lights on - after 3 hours they just phoned to say narrowed down to some problem with air conditioning electrics  - plot thickens as it was regassed 2 days before but had been fine.
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #17 on: 29 July 2022, 14:13:42 »

Eden are stumped - it has now been referred to Vauxhall Technical Assistance HQ
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STEMO

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #18 on: 29 July 2022, 14:23:08 »

Eden are stumped - it has now been referred to Vauxhall Technical Assistance HQ
I take it it's an astra K, Phil?


Sorry, just seen it's a J.
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #19 on: 29 July 2022, 16:55:22 »

Eden are stumped - it has now been referred to Vauxhall Technical Assistance HQ
I take it it's an astra K, Phil?


Sorry, just seen it's a J.

It runs fine if you don't turn AC on!!
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #20 on: 29 July 2022, 16:59:58 »

Failing compressor putting too much load on the engine at low rpm conditions  :-\
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #21 on: 01 August 2022, 07:19:44 »

Grounding issue then
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #22 on: 03 August 2022, 20:27:08 »

Well Vauxhall and Eden were of tremendous help. They said they were completely stumped and could only recommend a change of a control unit at a cost of £2000 but would not guarantee that this would be a fix. Terrible customer service. Took car away and it is now with a local auto electrician who believes it is the alternator and possibly battery as well. His meter showed replace battery but also alternator not delivering enough power. Hope to know more tomorrow.
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #23 on: 05 August 2022, 16:09:41 »

New WAI alternator seems to have fixed everything. Driving it all afternoon and no problems. He will recheck battery performance on Monday as it must have been drained after events of past 2 weeks so maybe no need to replace. Eden are just a joke. They told me 2 weeks ago alternator was fine despite AA saying that was most likely culprit
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #24 on: 08 August 2022, 07:24:41 »

I don't buy that one, the systems would be full of low or high volt codes.

I expect this issue to return
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #25 on: 10 August 2022, 11:27:36 »

Astra still driving fine with ac on and absolutely no issues after nearly a week. Eden maintain that it could not be that as the engine was revving erratically when they had it. They gave me so much bullshit as to why they could not diagnose. Independent Auto Electrician was adamant from get go that it was the alternator.

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?
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STEMO

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #26 on: 10 August 2022, 11:43:48 »

Astra still driving fine with ac on and absolutely no issues after nearly a week. Eden maintain that it could not be that as the engine was revving erratically when they had it. They gave me so much bullshit as to why they could not diagnose. Independent Auto Electrician was adamant from get go that it was the alternator.

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?
It appears to be fixed, Phil. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the whys and wherefores.
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #27 on: 10 August 2022, 13:04:04 »

Astra still driving fine with ac on and absolutely no issues after nearly a week. Eden maintain that it could not be that as the engine was revving erratically when they had it. They gave me so much bullshit as to why they could not diagnose. Independent Auto Electrician was adamant from get go that it was the alternator.

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?
It appears to be fixed, Phil. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the whys and wherefores.

cheers Steve - I want my diagnostic fee back and some beer money.
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #28 on: 10 August 2022, 13:11:02 »

Astra still driving fine with ac on and absolutely no issues after nearly a week. Eden maintain that it could not be that as the engine was revving erratically when they had it. They gave me so much bullshit as to why they could not diagnose. Independent Auto Electrician was adamant from get go that it was the alternator.

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?
It appears to be fixed, Phil. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the whys and wherefores.

cheers Steve - I want my diagnostic fee back and some beer money.
Not unreasonable, considering that Kevin's excellent starting/charging diagnostic guide is almost idiot proof, and it shouldn't be too much to expect a degree of competency from a franchised dealer...  :-X
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LC0112G

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #29 on: 10 August 2022, 18:03:00 »

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?

It depends on the ECU. I don't know if your ECU does it, but, ECU's do monitor battery voltage. They also control idle speed (via the idle air control valve). Normally idle speed is mostly dependent on engine temperature - so on a cold engine it'll be 1000+ rpm, and then as the engine warms up it slowly reduced to 600RPM ish. However, it's entirely possible that your ECU also has a mode where it increases RPM if it detects low battery voltage, in order to increase the charging current generated by the alternator. If it's actually the alternator that's faulty, then battery voltage may never increase, so you get permanently high idle speed.

ECU's also often increase idle RPM when A/C is enabled - to compensate for the extra load the A/C compressor puts on the engine.

I don't know if the Ashtray ECU does any of these things, but it is at least possible, and could explain what was going on.
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pscocoa

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #30 on: 10 August 2022, 20:23:41 »

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?

It depends on the ECU. I don't know if your ECU does it, but, ECU's do monitor battery voltage. They also control idle speed (via the idle air control valve). Normally idle speed is mostly dependent on engine temperature - so on a cold engine it'll be 1000+ rpm, and then as the engine warms up it slowly reduced to 600RPM ish. However, it's entirely possible that your ECU also has a mode where it increases RPM if it detects low battery voltage, in order to increase the charging current generated by the alternator. If it's actually the alternator that's faulty, then battery voltage may never increase, so you get permanently high idle speed.

ECU's also often increase idle RPM when A/C is enabled - to compensate for the extra load the A/C compressor puts on the engine.

I don't know if the Ashtray ECU does any of these things, but it is at least possible, and could explain what was going on.

Thanks for this interesting perspective - seems logical if my ecu would behave in this way in the event of a failing alternator. I may get a chance to pose the question to Eden and VX as a "case file" - has been opened.
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LC0112G

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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #31 on: 10 August 2022, 20:41:16 »

Bad alternators seem to be able to manifest themselves in many ways but would high revving at idle as opposed to low revs /cutting out (which seems more the norm for an alternator issue) be a sign when coupled with other electrical issues?

It depends on the ECU. I don't know if your ECU does it, but, ECU's do monitor battery voltage. They also control idle speed (via the idle air control valve). Normally idle speed is mostly dependent on engine temperature - so on a cold engine it'll be 1000+ rpm, and then as the engine warms up it slowly reduced to 600RPM ish. However, it's entirely possible that your ECU also has a mode where it increases RPM if it detects low battery voltage, in order to increase the charging current generated by the alternator. If it's actually the alternator that's faulty, then battery voltage may never increase, so you get permanently high idle speed.

ECU's also often increase idle RPM when A/C is enabled - to compensate for the extra load the A/C compressor puts on the engine.

I don't know if the Ashtray ECU does any of these things, but it is at least possible, and could explain what was going on.

Thanks for this interesting perspective - seems logical if my ecu would behave in this way in the event of a failing alternator. I may get a chance to pose the question to Eden and VX as a "case file" - has been opened.
It would require an intimate knowledge of what the software/firmware in the ECU does to know whether my suggestion holds water. No chance anyone at Eden, and unlikey anyone at Vauxhall have that knowledge. Someone at Bosch perhaps (assuming it's a Bosch ECU), or one of the owners groups who have successfully disassembled the ECU code.

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a sensible answer.   
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #32 on: 11 August 2022, 09:39:17 »

Sounds right, faulty alternator or battery will confuse ECU on most modern cars. My uncles Merc auto box was playing up , turns out it was a faulty battery even though it started and ran okay.
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Re: Astra J - Weird electric behaviour
« Reply #33 on: 26 August 2022, 09:58:22 »

so - 3/4  weeks on - all fine in terms of air con, starting and no erratic rev counter etc but the service esp light has been on twice and disappears on restart.

This may possibly be the same issue as Tunnie had with Zafira in 2018 being a broken pick up washer on the hub I think. Will get codes read in next few days but would not think plugs or coil pack at this stage due to fact that after restart  it drives ok.
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