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[Ianpinder]

Hey guys, I’ve got an Astra Mk3 Van with a Calibra V6 C25XE engine in, now I wanna buy an Omega 3.2 MV6  engine, Is it a ball ache to fit or really easy?

[Doctor Gollum]

Keep the 2.5 wiring and sensors and manifolds and it will drop straight in.

[Ianpinder]

What about the ECU …. The bigger injectors on the 3.2

[Doctor Gollum]

What about the ECU …. The bigger injectors on the 3.2

Sure, you can fit the 3.2 injectors, but why make life more complicated...

The Astra and Calibra had cabled throttles. The 3.2 doesn't so you need alot more than just the engine if you go down that road.

[Doctor Gollum]

What about the ECU …. The bigger injectors on the 3.2

Sure, you can fit the 3.2 injectors, but why make life more complicated...

The Astra and Calibra had cabled throttles. The 3.2 doesn't so you need alot more than just the engine if you go down that road.

The engine is otherwise essentially a bigger bore version of the C25. Dropping a bare 3.2 in would essentially be akin to swapping in another C25.

The ECU should allow for the increased air going in and add fuel to compensate.

[sjc]

Would the 3.0 not be a better match? 

For the extra 5bhp the 3.2 gives over the 3.0 I'd say you could potentially have a lot of issues to contend with on the electrical side... sensors having different connectors... different coil pack setup...

Bung a set of 3.2 manifolds on a 3.0 and you'll probably make up most of the power difference with that alone.

[Doctor Gollum]

Would the 3.0 not be a better match? 

For the extra 5bhp the 3.2 gives over the 3.0 I'd say you could potentially have a lot of issues to contend with on the electrical side... sensors having different connectors... different coil pack setup...

Bung a set of 3.2 manifolds on a 3.0 and you'll probably make up most of the power difference with that alone.

The 2.5 sensors and loom etc should swap straight onto a bare 3.2.

Given that the van currently works with the 2.5, swapping the 3.2 wiring etc would be far more complicated than an Astra C needs to be

[TheBoy]

For performance, the 3.0l is much better than the 3.2.  The 3.2 (and its sister, the god awful 2.6) are poor substitutes for the 3.0 and 2.5.

If you're prepared to do a lot of work, the 3.2 might have potential, either with forced induction or doing something about the stupidly low CR

[jb]

3.0 is a better unit for your conversion and totaly compatible with your 2.5 ancillaries.

[Doctor Gollum]

3.0 is a better unit for your conversion and totaly compatible with your 2.5 ancillaries.

As is the 3.2.

Any performance 'shortcomings' of the 3.2 will be largely irrelevant in an Astra van. About the only piece currently fitted to the 2.5 that won't fit either the 3.0 or 3.2 is the inlet divider as the 2.5/2.6 divider is a smidge narrower.

I would add that the chances are that anyone bemoaning the difference between the 3.0 and 3.2 hasn't experienced a 3.2 running with a mechanical throttle as most of the perceived differences between the two boil down to the DBW throttle response.

In short, to the OP, fit whichever you can get your hands on most cost effectively and keep the cabled throttle and engine electricals from the 2.5.

[TheBoy]

3.0 is a better unit for your conversion and totaly compatible with your 2.5 ancillaries.

As is the 3.2.

Any performance 'shortcomings' of the 3.2 will be largely irrelevant in an Astra van. About the only piece currently fitted to the 2.5 that won't fit either the 3.0 or 3.2 is the inlet divider as the 2.5/2.6 divider is a smidge narrower.

I would add that the chances are that anyone bemoaning the difference between the 3.0 and 3.2 hasn't experienced a 3.2 running with a mechanical throttle as most of the perceived differences between the two boil down to the DBW throttle response.

In short, to the OP, fit whichever you can get your hands on most cost effectively and keep the cabled throttle and engine electricals from the 2.5.

The 3.2 is a penny pinched shadow of the 3.0, and runs at a much lower compression ratio (to save the expensive of having an EGR).  That's irrespective of the throttle or ancillaries attached.  So, as a straight swap in for a new project, the 3.0l is always the best option from the Omega V6 engines, both for performance and for economy.

The 3.2 becomes more worthwhile if you spend a lot of money, including forced induction and potentially re-camming (and the associated remaps needed).  Without forced induction, the 3.2 is a poor substitute compared to the 3.0l, and is a shed load less economical as well...   ...not that forced induction will help with the latter!

[Raeturbo]

Can’t see how you say that,  the 3.2 has more torque and BHP throughout the entire Rev range.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Can’t see how you say that,  the 3.2 has more torque and BHP throughout the entire Rev range.

Posted for Rae. 

[Raeturbo]

Thank you kindly Steve👍

[Sir Tigger KC]

Thank you kindly Steve👍

 

[TheBoy]

Try driving both side by side .  I know GM's figures for the 3.2 were optimistic.  No idea where those dyno figures posted came from, as certainly does not tie in with *ANY* 3.0 or 3.2 I'd ever driven.  I'd I've driven an awful lot of them. And 2.5/2.6. And the poxy little 2.0/2.2, and soot chucker variants.

The 3.0's limitation was the exhaust fanimolds, easily resolved by using some from the 3.2.  The 3.2's limitations where the incredibly low compression ratio that needs stripping and rebuilding to overcome...  ...although as said previously, that low compression might come in handy if you want to bolt some kind of forced induction on.

Therefore, comments still stand, if you just want to drop in an engine, the 3.0 is the best of the V6.  The 3.2 has the potential to be better if you want to through several grand at it (but then I'd argue there are better engines that could be used as a base if spending that much).


And as an added bonus with the 3.0l, you get decent economy off it.  400 miles from a tank doesn't take much effort, even I've managed over 500 miles from a tank. Even trying very hard, I never managed to get less than 330 miles.  With the 3.2, 350 miles from a tank was about the best I ever achieved.


For info, the reason the 3.2 (and 2.6) were enlarged over their original engines was due to cost cutting, which lead to having to reduce the CR, so they had to increase capacity be a noticeable amount to get power back in the same region.  This allowed them to remove the EGR and SAI, and using a (awful&) electronic throttle allowed the removing of the IVC.  For good measure, they also fitted crap, restrictive cats, which anyone with a 3.2 should consider swapping out for 3.0l ones as near bolt on replacements and remaining road legal.


*The electronic throttle was mapped to provide lots of throttle with minimal pedal movement, giving an impression of it being more powerful than it is, where as in reality, further throttle movement shows it to be as flat as a witches tit.

[Raeturbo]

As both graphs cross at 5252 torque and bhp they are probably correct, however I’ve never driven the 3.0. my 3.2  Mv6 estate goes very well for what it is, James was let loose on it 😁

[STEMO]

As both graphs cross at 5252 torque and bhp they are probably correct, however I’ve never driven the 3.0. my 3.2  Mv6 estate goes very well for what it is, James was let loose on it 😁

The difference between the two would be negligible to the average driver, I would think. Let's face it, the average omega driver was quite well off, they were expensive back in the day, and it was classed as an executive saloon, a cruiser not a race car. But Jaime does like to take things to the limit....

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Either version installed in an Astra van, will make it fly like excrement off a highly polished digging implement.

[Doctor Gollum]

Obviously the 3.2 is far superior 

[YZ250]

Obviously the 3.2 is far superior 

You know it Al, I know it and even TB knows it.    He’s in denial. 

In all honesty, in all of the years that I had mine I looked out for 3.0’s to bait to find out if TB’s theory was right. If one did take the bait, I certainly never had one come past me. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Obviously the 3.2 is far superior 

You know it Al, I know it and even TB knows it.    He’s in denial. 

In all honesty, in all of the years that I had mine I looked out for 3.0’s to bait to find out if TB’s theory was right. If one did take the bait, I certainly never had one come past me. 

Even more so with a light bar fitted

[TheBoy]

As both graphs cross at 5252 torque and bhp they are probably correct, however I’ve never driven the 3.0. my 3.2  Mv6 estate goes very well for what it is, James was let loose on it 😁

The difference between the two would be negligible to the average driver, I would think. Let's face it, the average omega driver was quite well off, they were expensive back in the day, and it was classed as an executive saloon, a cruiser not a race car. But Jaime does like to take things to the limit....

They certainly drive "differently", due to the programming of the throttle on the DBW ones.  Would you notice the difference in reality (ignoring the throttle differences)?  Probably not in performance - we're probably talking less that 5% difference.  2 in a drag race? Been there, done that, you can guess what won.

In economy, though, yes, a massive difference. Somewhere between 100 to 150 miles a tank extra for the 3.0  .  Mostly all down to compression ratio, which is pathetically low on the 3.2.

[TheBoy]

Obviously the 3.2 is far superior 

You know it Al, I know it and even TB knows it.    He’s in denial. 

In all honesty, in all of the years that I had mine I looked out for 3.0’s to bait to find out if TB’s theory was right. If one did take the bait, I certainly never had one come past me. 

Oh dear, YZ250, methinks you are in denial.  That said, had we meet at the lights, I might have had a slight advantage anyway, as I seem to recall the saloon is slightly lighter (more than made up for by my bulk, I'm sure )

[TheBoy]

In fact, the only 3.2 to ever beat my old 3.0l bullet was Hotel21 in his estate.  Possibly because he knows how to drive. Or because I think he had Jura pup in the boot, egging him on

[YZ250]

Obviously the 3.2 is far superior 

You know it Al, I know it and even TB knows it.    He’s in denial. 

In all honesty, in all of the years that I had mine I looked out for 3.0’s to bait to find out if TB’s theory was right. If one did take the bait, I certainly never had one come past me. 

Oh dear, YZ250, methinks you are in denial.  That said, had we meet at the lights, I might have had a slight advantage anyway, as I seem to recall the saloon is slightly lighter (more than made up for by my bulk, I'm sure )

We'll never know now will we, not only because we both no longer own one but because we have both matured enough to refrain from challenging others. 
Anyway, my 3.2 estate had sports cats and big bore dual zorsts so had an extra million bhp. 

I fully agree on fuel economy though, mine was shite on fuel. I never did proper mpg or range checks as I wasn’t that bothered but I never got over 300 miles out of a tank. It may have had something to do with my driving style but I’m not sure.    I would brim the tank, the range would nearly always show 311 range, I’d hoof it down the road and it dropped to 285 within one mile.    I had some really serious attempts at seeing what I could get out of a full tank but I’d get bored after a couple of miles and revert back to my old habits. 

[YZ250]

As both graphs cross at 5252 torque and bhp they are probably correct, however I’ve never driven the 3.0. my 3.2  Mv6 estate goes very well for what it is, James was let loose on it 😁

The difference between the two would be negligible to the average driver, I would think. Let's face it, the average omega driver was quite well off, they were expensive back in the day, and it was classed as an executive saloon, a cruiser not a race car. But Jaime does like to take things to the limit....

They certainly drive "differently", due to the programming of the throttle on the DBW ones.  Would you notice the difference in reality (ignoring the throttle differences)?  Probably not in performance - we're probably talking less that 5% difference.  2 in a drag race? Been there, done that, you can guess what won.

In economy, though, yes, a massive difference. Somewhere between 100 to 150 miles a tank extra for the 3.0  .  Mostly all down to compression ratio, which is pathetically low on the 3.2.

Appreciate your honesty.    I do know that if the owner of a 3.0/3.2 tootled about in it, it would drive like a dog, so you could have a flat 3.2 losing badly to a decent 3.0 and vice versa.
Must have been pure luck that mine and yours went so well.   

[STEMO]

In fact, the only 3.2 to ever beat my old 3.0l bullet was Hotel21 in his estate.  Possibly because he knows how to drive. Or because I think he had Jura pup in the boot, egging him on

You just said a mouthfull. You've admitted that, with a competent driver, even a 3.2 estate can outpace a 3.0 saloon. Case closed.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

My 3.2 averages 24.5 mpg. About the same as every 6 cylinder Vauxhall Ive ever owned.
Having said that, the previous ones all got soundly thrashed and this one doesnt, so maybe proves TB,s point.

My old boss reckoned his 3.0 manual Omega (ex plod) averaged 35mpg, but then he also reckoned his Monaro did 185mph and ate M5,s for breakfast. 

[TheBoy]

In fact, the only 3.2 to ever beat my old 3.0l bullet was Hotel21 in his estate.  Possibly because he knows how to drive. Or because I think he had Jura pup in the boot, egging him on

You just said a mouthfull. You've admitted that, with a competent driver, even a 3.2 estate can outpace a 3.0 saloon. Case closed.

Yeah, but the 3.0 saloon had a disability....   ....me

Both of us got beat on most runs by a clapped out MX-5

Was a cracking day, though - hooning around a runway, H21 taught me the intricacies of how to do J-turns properly (a skill I've never, ever had a use for, officer ), followed by an evening with people I'm honoured to call friends, talking shite and supping beverage and eating BBQ.

[STEMO]

In fact, the only 3.2 to ever beat my old 3.0l bullet was Hotel21 in his estate.  Possibly because he knows how to drive. Or because I think he had Jura pup in the boot, egging him on

You just said a mouthfull. You've admitted that, with a competent driver, even a 3.2 estate can outpace a 3.0 saloon. Case closed.

Yeah, but the 3.0 saloon had a disability....   ....me

Both of us got beat on most runs by a clapped out MX-5

Was a cracking day, though - hooning around a runway, H21 taught me the intricacies of how to do J-turns properly (a skill I've never, ever had a use for, officer ), followed by an evening with people I'm honoured to call friends, talking shite and supping beverage and eating BBQ.

Elite Pete's MX5, IIRC.

[TheBoy]

My old boss reckoned his 3.0 manual Omega (ex plod) averaged 35mpg,

Actually easily achievable from a manual one over a tank if not ragging it off the line all the time.

[TheBoy]

In fact, the only 3.2 to ever beat my old 3.0l bullet was Hotel21 in his estate.  Possibly because he knows how to drive. Or because I think he had Jura pup in the boot, egging him on

You just said a mouthfull. You've admitted that, with a competent driver, even a 3.2 estate can outpace a 3.0 saloon. Case closed.

Yeah, but the 3.0 saloon had a disability....   ....me

Both of us got beat on most runs by a clapped out MX-5

Was a cracking day, though - hooning around a runway, H21 taught me the intricacies of how to do J-turns properly (a skill I've never, ever had a use for, officer ), followed by an evening with people I'm honoured to call friends, talking shite and supping beverage and eating BBQ.

Elite Pete's MX5, IIRC.

Yup, that's the one.  But he did look silly in it though

[STEMO]

In fact, the only 3.2 to ever beat my old 3.0l bullet was Hotel21 in his estate.  Possibly because he knows how to drive. Or because I think he had Jura pup in the boot, egging him on

You just said a mouthfull. You've admitted that, with a competent driver, even a 3.2 estate can outpace a 3.0 saloon. Case closed.

Yeah, but the 3.0 saloon had a disability....   ....me

Both of us got beat on most runs by a clapped out MX-5

Was a cracking day, though - hooning around a runway, H21 taught me the intricacies of how to do J-turns properly (a skill I've never, ever had a use for, officer ), followed by an evening with people I'm honoured to call friends, talking shite and supping beverage and eating BBQ.

Elite Pete's MX5, IIRC.

Yup, that's the one.  But he did look silly in it though

Apparently, his ex wife couldn't accept the fact that he'd taken up hairdressing, and the marriage sadly ended. :'(



  Sorry, Pete.

[TheBoy]

Appreciate your honesty.    I do know that if the owner of a 3.0/3.2 tootled about in it, it would drive like a dog, so you could have a flat 3.2 losing badly to a decent 3.0 and vice versa.
Must have been pure luck that mine and yours went so well.   

I did get to drive a few when I used to do a lot of diagnostics stuff on them, many locals will know my standard test route that has a good selection of handling, tram lining, flat out running and heavy braking.

Yeah, defo some dogs, but mostly for a given engine they went similarity .  Both my 3.0 and 3.2 I'd class as "not dogs" .  The biggest thing with most was owners never sorted the sloppy suspension issues.  Or shitty brakes that would fail on the short test run.

I never found one that handled as well as my beloved silver bullet.  Ask anyone who drove it.  To the point, when I scrapped it, Gixer and I swapped all the suspension over with TBE in the hope of getting TBE handling as well, but it didn't. Absolutely no idea what was going on there.

[Ianpinder]

I just want to drop in place with less hassle I actually have an ex plod 3.0ltr engine so if this is the easiest option I’d gladly take it, I’m not racing it or going drifting in it, it’s for my Astra van that has a very big audio system in it…[/img]

[sjc]

I just want to drop in place with less hassle I actually have an ex plod 3.0ltr engine so if this is the easiest option I’d gladly take it, I’m not racing it or going drifting in it, it’s for my Astra van that has a very big audio system in it…[/img]

I'd say you will certainly have less hassle with the 3.0L lump, especially if you already have one that I presume you know the condition of!

You'll still be able to use your current 2.5 ECU so there'll be no need to change the immobiliser chip in the key or make any other wiring changes.

An alternator upgrade might be a good idea though - the standard 120A unit struggles to supply anything approaching 2kw in winter with lights on etc

[biggriffin]

Use either a 3.0L or 3.2 doesn't make much difference, run the 2.5 wiring and ECU, and fit whichever sensors fit that loom,.
If you can find an MSD Super-touring inlet plenum+ manifold with Throttle body all is well, they were flowed and larger, you could also fit x4 G-cams. I think the MSD cars had different exhaust manifolds too, I can't remember.

[TheBoy]

Or a DTM 2.5 - they were producing around 400bhp, but seem to be rare as rocking horse shit.  I seem to recall one company bought them all up and stripped most of them for parts for the hill climb lot?

[biggriffin]

Or a DTM 2.5 - they were producing around 400bhp, but seem to be rare as rocking horse shit.  I seem to recall one company bought them all up and stripped most of them for parts for the hill climb lot?

 Found one
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/139055/opel-calibra-v6-25l-itc-race-engine-phase-3

[Doctor Gollum]

Cheap at half the price