Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Viral_Jim]

This morning two colleagues of mine took a BA flight (against my advice) out of LHR to CDG.

They were originally booked on the 0720 but received an email about 10 days ago saying they had been bumped onto the 0935 as their flight was cancelled. However when they got to the airport they saw on the board that the 0720 had departed - on time  , BA's website confirms this. I can't imagine that BA had managed to overbook that flight as there were all of 17 passengers on the 0935 - anyone seen this before?

As an aside, the 0935 actually left 2hrs late due to a last minute aircraft switch resulting from a botched repair. So rather than an 0930 arrival they got in at 1344. 


All in all an episode that's done nothing to reverse my opinion that BA are an overpriced sh!tehouse that you'd have to be mad to offer your money to.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I agree. They used to be pretty good, but a long time ago decided to live off their past reputation. The reputation is now a distant memory for many people.
It isnt even British anymore. I believe its owned by Spaniards ?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Today the last two BA 747's took off from Heathrow, one going to S.Wales, the other to Gloucester

It seems only yesterday, 1969 I believe, that we saw the first 747 landing in the UK and in 1971 it first flew as a BOAC aircraft

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Today the last two BA 747's took off from Heathrow, one going to S.Wales, the other to Gloucester

It seems only yesterday, 1969 I believe, that we saw the first 747 landing in the UK and in 1971 it first flew as a BOAC aircraft

Flew in from Miami beach BOAC.

[Rangie]

It's a crying shame what's happening to the airlines, I don't enjoy flying anywhere with anyone  now , queues & delays that's all it seems to be now.

[Doctor Gollum]

The bumping/reschedule of the booking could be due to a number of factors... No enough original demand for the flight (or its return), a change to the scheduled aircraft type limiting the availability of seats... Last booked first bumped... Any spurious changes to Batflu restrictions...

Any alterations may not have been specifically related to that route, but as a consequence of changes/disruption elsewhere.

The 'botched' repair complaint only serves to highlight a lack of understanding about how aircraft maintenance works.

Let's say, for example, that the aircraft arrived at Heathrow at 0845 with a defect for a faulty coffee boiler.

At 0855, once tha passengers are off, the engineer gets informed of detail of the fault.

0900, having established that a fault keeps tripping the breaker, the boiler is removed for replacement with a serviceable one. This is the quickest, easiest approach to fixing the problem and would be a decision made based on likely fault and speed of rectification*.

0910, the replacement boiler is fitted, but still blows the breaker.

Boarding gets delayed 5 minutes.

0915 further investigation reveals a fault where the boiler loom has chaffed behind the galley assembly.

0920 aircraft gets swapped as it is going to be quicker to change aircraft than wait while this one is repaired.

Flight gets rescheduled to the nearest realistic time whilst the aircraft is swapped.

In order for this to happen, the following takes place:

Decision is made to either change gate and move everyone over to the new aircraft, or the aircraft gets swapped at the existing gate.

Catering gates pulled, bags offloaded, crew transfer over (if their hours permit) Aircraft gets towed x2 (if they keep the gate) or busses arranged to transfer passengers/crew.

Crew board new aircraft and prepare it (again) for the flight, catering, fuel and bags reloaded, new flightplan is filed and slot rescheduled. Passengers board and the flight departs. Late.

A two hour delay is pretty reasonable under the circumstances, but also consider that that aircraft will potentially be two hours late for the rest of the day.

Factor in that effect over a fleet the size of BA or EasyJet with all the associated schedule changes and reorganisation and it is sometimes a wonder that anything arrives when and where it was planned to.

The water boiler example is just that, there are thousands of parts that could fail or get damaged that could be a simple fix or a total nightmare... Not to mention third party damage such as the loaders or caterers damaging the aircraft. Also aircraft run with Minimum Equipment Lists which applies to everything on the aircraft... If it already has a couple of defects and the minimum is exceeded by a failure on the inbound flight, then fixing the minimum item may not be possible in the available turn around time. And knowing about an issue before the aircraft arrives is all well and good, but you can't do anything about it until it is on the ground and unless it's an engine fault, until it is unloaded.

To expect an airline to have a spare aircraft and crew for every flight waiting just in case is insane, and financially impossible. They might have four crews on standby and a couple of standby aircraft, but if your flight is the third one to develop a fault at that point, you're going to be delayed.

* Again this is a made up example of how an issue could escalate. An automotive example might be that your oil light comes on. You establish that the level is ok, so you change the sensor as that's the next easiest thing. This doesn't solve the problem, so you check the wiring (these two steps are interchangeable) which reveals no fault. Now you're into physically checking the oil pressure, which turns out to be really low. Suddenly you're into pulling/stripping the engine to swap out the oil pump.

Similarly a snapped wheel bolt or having a flat spare when you get a puncture on the motorway. In France. On a Sunday.

Doesn't take much of an escalation to turn a five minute job into a two day one.

[TheBoy]

This morning two colleagues of mine took a BA flight (against my advice) out of LHR to CDG.

They were originally booked on the 0720 but received an email about 10 days ago saying they had been bumped onto the 0935 as their flight was cancelled. However when they got to the airport they saw on the board that the 0720 had departed - on time  , BA's website confirms this. I can't imagine that BA had managed to overbook that flight as there were all of 17 passengers on the 0935 - anyone seen this before?

As an aside, the 0935 actually left 2hrs late due to a last minute aircraft switch resulting from a botched repair. So rather than an 0930 arrival they got in at 1344. 


All in all an episode that's done nothing to reverse my opinion that BA are an overpriced sh!tehouse that you'd have to be mad to offer your money to.

Not used BA that often, and no real complaints when I have.  The thing that winds me up about BA is Terminal 5, which is enough to drive anyone to violence. But thats not BA's fault.


If I had to find fault, I'd have to go into full on Opti mode, and suggest the trolley dollys aren't what you'd call Wank Bank material. Much like Sleazy Jet.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Today the last two BA 747's took off from Heathrow, one going to S.Wales, the other to Gloucester

It seems only yesterday, 1969 I believe, that we saw the first 747 landing in the UK and in 1971 it first flew as a BOAC aircraft

Flew in from Miami beach BOAC.

Ah, thanks Opti

[Rangie]

Today the last two BA 747's took off from Heathrow, one going to S.Wales, the other to Gloucester

It seems only yesterday, 1969 I believe, that we saw the first 747 landing in the UK and in 1971 it first flew as a BOAC aircraft

Flew in from Miami beach BOAC.

Ah, thanks Opti

. 

We still have some BOAC whisky tumblers lovely crystal, always use one if I feel a cold coming on.

[redelitev6]

Today the last two BA 747's took off from Heathrow, one going to S.Wales, the other to Gloucester

It seems only yesterday, 1969 I believe, that we saw the first 747 landing in the UK and in 1971 it first flew as a BOAC aircraft

Flew in from Miami beach BOAC.

Going back to the USSR ?

[Viral_Jim]

The information about bumping of flights did highlight a couple of things that I wasn't aware of, thanks.  But to lie to customers about the status of a service they have paid for is inexcusable in my view. But they have form, given they were recently rumbled for misleading customers over refunds and failure to pay compensation for late flights which was rightfully due to customers - so they have strong form in this area. 

But I think you're wide of the mark about the maintenance issue, specifically...

The 'botched' repair complaint only serves to highlight a lack of understanding about how aircraft maintenance works.
...
To expect an airline to have a spare aircraft and crew for every flight waiting just in case is insane, and financially impossible
...
Factor in that effect over a fleet the size of BA or EasyJet with all the associated schedule changes and reorganisation and it is sometimes a wonder that anything arrives when and where it was planned to.

I am well aware that maintenance is often done at very short or no notice and to incredibly demanding timescales, so its not surprising that things go awry, or simply cannot to done in the time available. The aircraft had been on the tarmac at T5 for a smidge over 11hrs since it came in from DUS the night before and had (according to the flight crew) been subject to a repair, but the fault re-occurred at the gate- assuming this is true, it would be hard to argue things had been done properly. 

Also, given the number of cancelled flights at the moment, T5 looks like a BA branded boneyard. 

I do agree with your last point however. Earlier this year I applied for a job at Easyjet, so I did a reasonable amount of research, and the complexity is mindblowing, leave along much larger short/long haul operations. 

At the end of the day, Alex Cruz has brought all he learned from running Vueling and has used it to turn a national flag carrier into a distrusted overpriced budget airline, which is very sad. Given that last year, only Michael O'Really's outfit were ranked lower for customer satisfaction, at least it seems people are cottening on.

[Broomies Mate]

Given that last year, only Michael O'Really's outfit were ranked lower for customer satisfaction, at least it seems people are cottening on.

But they are still flying, and still selling tickets.  I've flown RyanAir twice.... after the first time I said "never again".  The second time, I said "never again".  I probably would fly with them again, if the price was ridiculously cheap (and sometimes they are).

We put up with crap service if the price is right.


The last time I flew with BA, was a short jump from LGW to CDG (a weekend in EuroDisney), that was 3 years ago.  I don't really recall the flight or service, which says it was neither excellent or terrible.

[Doctor Gollum]

Pinning down an intermittent fault is hard enough on a car, but can be a complete pig on summat as complicated as an aircraft... Ultimately it all depends on the nature of the specific fault and what is required to fix it. It might even be that engineering had pulled the aircraft from service but forgotten to tell operations because the fire alarm went off or something more serious had broken elsewhere...

Also it depends on the specific fault as to whether the aircraft can fly, but ultimately it is down to the crew... in the same way that a hire car can be down to 2mm tyre tread depth... Perfectly legal, but you reserve the right not to accept it. 

I've lost count of the number of times that I have turned up for overtime, both at base and away, only to find out that the aircraft we were scheduled to work on has nightstopped in Naples or Madrid or that the flight bringing in the parts from an outstation has been canned

[Doctor Gollum]

I would still choose to crawl to my destination than use Spudulike.

[Rangie]

Given that last year, only Michael O'Really's outfit were ranked lower for customer satisfaction, at least it seems people are cottening on.

But they are still flying, and still selling tickets.  I've flown RyanAir twice.... after the first time I said "never again".  The second time, I said "never again".  I probably would fly with them again, if the price was ridiculously cheap (and sometimes they are).

We put up with crap service if the price is right.


The last time I flew with BA, was a short jump from LGW to CDG (a weekend in EuroDisney), that was 3 years ago.  I don't really recall the flight or service, which says it was neither excellent or terrible.

. 

Flew with Ryanair 2 summers ago was dreadful from start to finish would never use them again even for free, cheap & nasty is the only way to describe it, you get what you pay for and I would gladly pay more if I ever choose to fly again, unfortunately the flights were booked by friends we were holidaying with who thought that cheap flights would be okay with us , personally I would never have entertained it, luckily for them the villa & pool they had found were top notch so I didn't stay grumpy for long.

[Broomies Mate]

Flew with Ryanair 2 summers ago was dreadful from start to finish would never use them again even for free, cheap & nasty is the only way to describe it, you get what you pay for and I would gladly pay more if I ever choose to fly again, unfortunately the flights were booked by friends we were holidaying with who thought that cheap flights would be okay with us , personally I would never have entertained it, luckily for them the villa & pool they had found were top notch so I didn't stay grumpy for long.

I get it from your POV.  Difference being, I take several holidays abroad a year.  Most of them are to the Canary Islands.  easyJet, RyanAir, Jet2 are the only airlines which cater for the Canaries.  It's only a 4hr flight, so I don't really mind 'budget'.  I do however really rate Jet2 and easyJet..... RyanAir have been noticeably lacking in quality.

[Marks DTM Calib]

This morning two colleagues of mine took a BA flight (against my advice) out of LHR to CDG.

They were originally booked on the 0720 but received an email about 10 days ago saying they had been bumped onto the 0935 as their flight was cancelled. However when they got to the airport they saw on the board that the 0720 had departed - on time  , BA's website confirms this. I can't imagine that BA had managed to overbook that flight as there were all of 17 passengers on the 0935 - anyone seen this before?

As an aside, the 0935 actually left 2hrs late due to a last minute aircraft switch resulting from a botched repair. So rather than an 0930 arrival they got in at 1344. 


All in all an episode that's done nothing to reverse my opinion that BA are an overpriced sh!tehouse that you'd have to be mad to offer your money to.

Not used BA that often, and no real complaints when I have.  The thing that winds me up about BA is Terminal 5, which is enough to drive anyone to violence. But thats not BA's fault.


If I had to find fault, I'd have to go into full on Opti mode, and suggest the trolley dollys aren't what you'd call Wank Bank material. Much like Sleazy Jet.

Try Air FrChance, utter dogs the lot of them

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

What do you expect ? They are French. 

[TheBoy]

Fortunately, as I try to avoid the USA at all costs I haven't been stung, but one of my bro's who half lives out there has had a 0% success rate with Delta getting him and his luggage to any destination on the same day.

But I guess the price is right, as tolerating a cock up once is acceptable, but to keep tolerating cock ups removes your right to grumble about it IMHO

[Broomies Mate]

Fortunately, as I try to avoid the USA at all costs I haven't been stung, but one of my bro's who half lives out there has had a 0% success rate with Delta getting him and his luggage to any destination on the same day.

But I guess the price is right, as tolerating a cock up once is acceptable, but to keep tolerating cock ups removes your right to grumble about it IMHO

Now that surprises me as Delta are a fantastic airline.  I've flown with them on perhaps 30 occasions, and never had an issue.  American Airlines and United on the other hand! 

When State-side, I always try to use Delta.

[TheBoy]

Fortunately, as I try to avoid the USA at all costs I haven't been stung, but one of my bro's who half lives out there has had a 0% success rate with Delta getting him and his luggage to any destination on the same day.

But I guess the price is right, as tolerating a cock up once is acceptable, but to keep tolerating cock ups removes your right to grumble about it IMHO

Now that surprises me as Delta are a fantastic airline.  I've flown with them on perhaps 30 occasions, and never had an issue.  American Airlines and United on the other hand! 

When State-side, I always try to use Delta.

I shall tell him your experiences, just to wind him up.  He reckons Delta stands for Don't Expect your Luggage To Arrive.

[Nick W]

Fortunately, as I try to avoid the USA at all costs I haven't been stung, but one of my bro's who half lives out there has had a 0% success rate with Delta getting him and his luggage to any destination on the same day.

But I guess the price is right, as tolerating a cock up once is acceptable, but to keep tolerating cock ups removes your right to grumble about it IMHO

Perhaps you should get him to order your Ebay stuff, and you sort his flights?

[ronnyd]

What do you expect ? They are French. 

Yeah, nearly as bad as buying a Renault. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I hold my hands up. 

[Viral_Jim]

What do you expect ? They are French. 

My last company used to have sites in various rural bits of France, so air chance were the only option. My last flight they took my cabin bag off me after I had already boarded, then managed to lose it (on a direct flight). Never to be seen again. 

[Kevin Wood]

I used to fly with BA quite a lot and they always gave decent service. On the few times I got stuck due to a cancellation they sorted out a nice hotel and got me back asap the next day.

The last few times I've flown with them I've got Ryanair service for former BA prices, however, with trolley dollies waking you up to sell you chavvy tat throughout the flight and a shrug of the shoulders when anything went wrong.

Before batflu, flying had become an only-just-bearable necessity that I avoided whenever possible. I suspect it will no longer be a necessity for many people who have found other ways of doing business, so things will only get worse.

[Kevin Wood]

Oh, and if there's any doubt in your mind over Air Chance's operating practices, read the real story about the Concorde crash, including all the bits the BEA's investigation neglected to consider relevant.

Aircraft overweight (beyond airframe structural limits let alone operational limits for the conditions!) and loaded with a dangerously nose-light CofG.
Then they overfilled the fuel tanks, defeating the cut-off mechanisms that prevent over-filling.
They stripped down the undercarriage but had bits left over after they'd finished reassembling it. Their response to this was "oh, well".
The flight crew shut down an engine that was producing useful thrust while the aircraft was struggling to maintain a climb and well below the minimum height at which the operating procedures allow them to do so.
After the aircraft returned to service they nearly lost another one by flying across the atlantic with fuel pouring through a windmilling failed engine and only noticed when the red lights started coming on.

None of this made any difference to the outcome* so that's OK, then. but, if you operate aircraft like this it will bite you in the @rse eventually, and I 'ain't going to be onboard when it does.

* except that if the aircraft's takeoff performance had't been hobbled by the extra weight and faulty undercarriage it would have lifted off before the bit of debris on the runway that did for it.

[JamesV6CDX]

Just as a contrast. I've flown Ryanair probably 75 times (37 approx return trips) in the last 5 to 8 years. As far as budget airlines go, I like them. They have one of the most modern fleets of next-gen 737s, the new seat configuration is comfy and roomy, and we always book an extra seat, so we have a row of three to ourselves.

I find as long as you pay for the reserved seats, and bags if you want them, Ryanair are fine

My worst flight was with KLM, when it yawed right on the runway at schiphol, and the takeoff was aborted.

I've flown BA Club Europe a lot. The lounges are great, and the treatment on the aircraft is great, as is the instant check in.... but you basically just get a normal row, with the seat in between you both being a table. So the seats are no better.

And, the only separation from the riffraf is a curtain. And it seems that entitled people who have paid a tenth of the ticket price we have, think it's ok to come through the curtain and queue in the aisle next to our seats for a piss, because they're too lazy to walk to the back. I think the crew should be hotter on that

[JamesV6CDX]

Most memorable was a long weekend to Alghero, Sardina, last year. Flights £15 or so each.... just a no brainer. Have spent the last few years taking advantage of offers like that, and flying around europe, in the same way I'd take a train up to Birmingham

[Sir Tigger KC]

Most memorable was a long weekend to Alghero, Sardina, last year. Flights £15 or so each.... just a no brainer. Have spent the last few years taking advantage of offers like that, and flying around europe, in the same way I'd take a train up to Birmingham

I've never understood why people expect some sort of special treatment just because they are getting on an aeroplane, especially short haul trips that mostly are the same duration as a longish bus or train ride. 

[Entwood]

Most memorable was a long weekend to Alghero, Sardina, last year. Flights £15 or so each.... just a no brainer. Have spent the last few years taking advantage of offers like that, and flying around europe, in the same way I'd take a train up to Birmingham

I've never understood why people expect some sort of special treatment just because they are getting on an aeroplane, especially short haul trips that mostly are the same duration as a longish bus or train ride. 

In all parts of the aviation industry the SLF* are the a major pain ... be they ordered to fly or opting to fly ... they are, generically, a total pain......  give me a full freight load any day... it doesn't move, doesn't make stupid requests, doesn't complain, and doesn't, basically, get bored and difficult.

*  SLF  - Self Loading Freight..... also known as "passengers" .....

[JamesV6CDX]

Most memorable was a long weekend to Alghero, Sardina, last year. Flights £15 or so each.... just a no brainer. Have spent the last few years taking advantage of offers like that, and flying around europe, in the same way I'd take a train up to Birmingham

I've never understood why people expect some sort of special treatment just because they are getting on an aeroplane, especially short haul trips that mostly are the same duration as a longish bus or train ride. 

In all parts of the aviation industry the SLF* are the a major pain ... be they ordered to fly or opting to fly ... they are, generically, a total pain......  give me a full freight load any day... it doesn't move, doesn't make stupid requests, doesn't complain, and doesn't, basically, get bored and difficult.

*  SLF  - Self Loading Freight..... also known as "passengers" .....

I totally hear you, however, in my defence, I have always been very much of the "chuck the bag in, sit down, shut up, and no faffing - and be nice to the crew" brigade.........

In contrast, I've seen some absolute knobbish behaviour on flights

[JamesV6CDX]

Most memorable was a long weekend to Alghero, Sardina, last year. Flights £15 or so each.... just a no brainer. Have spent the last few years taking advantage of offers like that, and flying around europe, in the same way I'd take a train up to Birmingham

I've never understood why people expect some sort of special treatment just because they are getting on an aeroplane, especially short haul trips that mostly are the same duration as a longish bus or train ride. 

.

To be blunt, I don't. I chuck the bag on, sit down as quickly as possible to allow them to get off on time, and then get pissed off when everyone else faffs over bags, computers, etc.

My only exception is when I choose to pay, say £600 for a short haul business BA ticket, when normal class is £60. When I do that, I expect the crew to stop the tracksuit shod people who can't string a sentence together, and are travelling standard class, from coming through the curtain into business, using the toilets there, and generally being a d*ck............

[Sir Tigger KC]

Most memorable was a long weekend to Alghero, Sardina, last year. Flights £15 or so each.... just a no brainer. Have spent the last few years taking advantage of offers like that, and flying around europe, in the same way I'd take a train up to Birmingham

I've never understood why people expect some sort of special treatment just because they are getting on an aeroplane, especially short haul trips that mostly are the same duration as a longish bus or train ride. 

.

To be blunt, I don't. I chuck the bag on, sit down as quickly as possible to allow them to get off on time, and then get pissed off when everyone else faffs over bags, computers, etc.

My only exception is when I choose to pay, say £600 for a short haul business BA ticket, when normal class is £60. When I do that, I expect the crew to stop the tracksuit shod people who can't string a sentence together, and are travelling standard class, from coming through the curtain into business, using the toilets there, and generally being a d*ck............

No I'm totally with you James and I've flown Ryan Air a few times as well.  Get on, sit down and let them deliver me to the destination. 

The thing that really gets my goat with air travel, and it happens on all airlines, long and short haul, is the people who drag ridiculously large bags on as 'hand baggage' and then there's never any room in the overhead lockers. 

[Nick W]

No I'm totally with you James and I've flown Ryan Air a few times as well.  Get on, sit down and let them deliver me to the destination. 

And me. When I do fly, it's usually because it's quicker, easier and cheaper than driving. That's a calculation that changes the more people that are going: I can get to my parent's place near cognac or my aunt's near Biarritz, for a lot less if I fly from Stanstead and rent a car for a few days, than if I drive there. If four of us need to get there, the car is the better choice.


When spending a couple of hours on a plane, I don't need anything more than a seat.

[Viral_Jim]

The thing that really gets my goat with air travel, and it happens on all airlines, long and short haul, is the people who drag ridiculously large bags on as 'hand baggage' and then there's never any room in the overhead lockers. 

I genuinely don't know how people get away with that. I've had snotty check in attendents of all nations (unsurprising the Germans being the most frequent offenders) make me ram my 'very obviously regulation carry on bag' into that stupid cage thing at the gate.

On one occasion ( I was pushing my luck with a bigger bag) I told them it would go in, but they would need to get it out otherwise I was boarding with the metal cage attached.

It went in, but took 3 people to get it out. They obviously weren't expecting someone in a suit and tie to stand on a case to get it into the cage. 

[Doctor Gollum]

You will keep flying to Germany though

I'm with Nige regarding the 'noisy baggage'.

Ryanair may well operate relatively new aircraft, but that's partly because they get a decent deal by buying in bulk... New aircraft are perceived to be more reliable, but Spudulike absolutely hammer them into the ground, sometimes literally.

Also it will be interesting to see how their passenger loads fare once they start resuming the 73 Max deliveries.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Hmmm if flying off to sunny places ever becomes feasible again, I'm not sure I'd ever be too keen to get on a 737 Max, no matter what we're told about how safe it is etc. 

[Nick W]

Hmmm if flying off to sunny places ever becomes feasible again, I'm not sure I'd ever be too keen to get on a 737 Max, no matter what we're told about how safe it is etc. 

So you won't trust the extra sensor cable-tied into a wing and some hastily written software? It will have passed all the extensive, independent approval procedures.


Just like the original plane did.

[Rangie]

Hmmm if flying off to sunny places ever becomes feasible again, I'm not sure I'd ever be too keen to get on a 737 Max, no matter what we're told about how safe it is etc. 

.   


I'm going to be like Mr T, ain't going on no plane, I had already said to SWMBO that I really don't enjoy flying anymore the queues the searching which because of time restraints is usually to a very poor standard , we've been to most places we want to see so will use the caravan as much as possible in future, lots of places in the UK I've never seen.

[TheBoy]

The thing that really gets my goat with air travel, and it happens on all airlines, long and short haul, is the

The little bastards that constantly kick the seats I'm sat in trying to sleep, and the parents do SFA about it.  Shoot the little oppsers. And the parents.

[Shackeng]

You're in the cheap seats!

[Doctor Gollum]

You're in the cheap seats!

Alot to be said for being able to look out the front 

[Varche]

good news. BA boss has been replaced with Sean Doyle so everything will be fine now.