Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Andy B on 14 June 2009, 18:14:02
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..... and my car feels a lot better at stopping! I've fitted the Vauxhall pads that came with the kit, I thought I might as well ;).
I've not looked for the other pictures of old knackered discs but mine look very similar ie they were only braking on 2/3 of the inboard side of both discs.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F0901.jpg)
Outer side, although worn, was uniformly worn.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F0902.jpg)
This bit chipped off as I 'judiciously tapped' it off the hub.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F0904.jpg)
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I think mine are in a simelar state on the MV6....
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Piece of cake to do. It's only another 2 M12 bolts (18mm socket/spanner) to remove the caliper carrier to change the discs than you would do if you just did the pads. Mind, one of them was bloody tight! Windy gun wouldn't shift it, had to hit spanner with large mallet to shift it.
Obviously all mating surfaces must be clean etc etc :y
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And heed the torque setting for the allen screw that locates the disk to hub - 4Nm. Unlike the retarded mechanic who last did the fronts on my old tractor >:(
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I normally put a dusting layer of silver spray paint on the clean discs - not the braking face, obviously - to reduce the rust time of the vented part and the centre hub. Keeps it cleaner/newer for longer.... :y
And agree with the allen bolt! ;D
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looks almost exactly the same as mine, maybe a little better, certainly the same issue. I dont suppose you re in a position to measure the disc thickness? See how much ware we are not being allowed the use of...?
Would have measured mine but they are down the tip.
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....... I dont suppose you re in a position to measure the disc thickness? See how much ware we are not being allowed the use of...? ....
I'll look for my 0-25mm mic, trouble is they don't have much throat and can so only measure the first inch 25mm or so.
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Andy they look well past their best mate, no wonder she brakes better now ::)
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Andy they look well past their best mate, no wonder she brakes better now ::)
hindsight is a wonderful thing .... so is looking at the back of the disc when it's been removed. The outboard side just looks a bit on the worn side, nothing like t'other side.
I bet my Astra's discs are the same if only I'd look! ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Andy they look well past their best mate, no wonder she brakes better now ::)
hindsight is a wonderful thing .... so is looking at the back of the disc when it's been removed. The outboard side just looks a bit on the worn side, nothing like t'other side.
I bet my Astra's discs are the same if only I'd look! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Better look then mate else you could end up with a branch in ya eye ;D
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Andy they look well past their best mate, no wonder she brakes better now ::)
hindsight is a wonderful thing .... so is looking at the back of the disc when it's been removed. The outboard side just looks a bit on the worn side, nothing like t'other side.
I bet my Astra's discs are the same if only I'd look! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Better look then mate else you could end up with a branch in ya eye ;D
I looked the other day & bought new pads cos the backing plate looked to be very close to the disc. There was more lining than I'd expected when I took them out, just not very uniform. ::)
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see your point with the micrometer.
Anyway, think its safe to assume the trade club pads are a false economy. Not to mention the poor performance they give even when new.
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see your point with the micrometer.
Anyway, think its safe to assume the trace club pads are a false economy. Not to mention the poor performance they give even when new.
eh? nought wrong with mine
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see your point with the micrometer.
Anyway, think its safe to assume the trace club pads are a false economy. Not to mention the poor performance they give even when new.
eh? nought wrong with mine
Oh yes, you've been away havent you.
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see your point with the micrometer.
Anyway, think its safe to assume the trace club pads are a false economy. Not to mention the poor performance they give even when new.
eh? nought wrong with mine
Oh yes, you've been away havent you.
Have a look here J.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1244128955
There have been a couple of posts recently showing discs in very similar condition to Andys, mine included. It would seem the after market pads used in these cases are the common denominator.
This has led me, on omegatoys recommendation, to fit oe pads, at £70 a set. Bloody steep, no need to tell me. But these oe pads, although not yet bedded in already give a marked improvement in feel and power at the pedal. There is also a suggestion, although only by a parts man, that only these pads should be used with vented discs.
But these are all minor details really. Whats important is that several members have experienced the inside edge disc failure and loss of performance that goes with it. The reason would appear to be break up on the corresponding pad, mine showed evidence of lumps missing.
Only time will tell if the new pads cure it. But, lets just say, i think is wise the check the inside face of all 4 of your discs paying special attention to the 10 mill nearest the outer edge.
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looks almost exactly the same as mine, maybe a little better, certainly the same issue. I dont suppose you re in a position to measure the disc thickness? See how much ware we are not being allowed the use of...?
Would have measured mine but they are down the tip.
I found my 25 - 50 mic :y. As far in as I can measure my old discs, which is in from the un-worn section of the inboard side of the disc, they were down to 24.75mm .... min thickness according to Mr Haynes is 25mm. :-? ::) :y :y
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Somehow missed the OE -v- TC club thread.... As far as i can suss, its only the leading edge of the TC pads that have a heavy chamfer thus, as far as I can deduce, should have no appreciable effect on the braking ewffort once properly bedded in, or am I missing something??
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Somehow missed the OE -v- TC club thread.... As far as i can suss, its only the leading edge of the TC pads that have a heavy chamfer thus, as far as I can deduce, should have no appreciable effect on the braking ewffort once properly bedded in, or am I missing something??
The linings must be a different to, GC/Omegatoy ays the OE don't produce as much dust either and have a better 'bite'. There again, so do TC pads when they're working on 100% of both sides of the disc. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Somehow missed the OE -v- TC club thread.... As far as i can suss, its only the leading edge of the TC pads that have a heavy chamfer thus, as far as I can deduce, should have no appreciable effect on the braking ewffort once properly bedded in, or am I missing something??
Suggest a re read. :-)
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see your point with the micrometer.
Anyway, think its safe to assume the trace club pads are a false economy. Not to mention the poor performance they give even when new.
eh? nought wrong with mine
Oh yes, you've been away havent you.
Have a look here J.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1244128955
There have been a couple of posts recently showing discs in very similar condition to Andys, mine included. It would seem the after market pads used in these cases are the common denominator.
This has led me, on omegatoys recommendation, to fit oe pads, at £70 a set. Bloody steep, no need to tell me. But these oe pads, although not yet bedded in already give a marked improvement in feel and power at the pedal. There is also a suggestion, although only by a parts man, that only these pads should be used with vented discs.
But these are all minor details really. Whats important is that several members have experienced the inside edge disc failure and loss of performance that goes with it. The reason would appear to be break up on the corresponding pad, mine showed evidence of lumps missing.
Only time will tell if the new pads cure it. But, lets just say, i think is wise the check the inside face of all 4 of your discs paying special attention to the 10 mill nearest the outer edge.
I have used TC pads for the last 5yrs, with no issues (other than premature replacement due to overheating occasionally), never had that disc issue on the MV6. Changed the discs twice, once due to wear, and once because the pattern ones I put on where shite (themselves replaced/skimmed).
The tractor came with discs in that condition, replacement and a brake service cured that.
I am content with the TC pads (and discs), the OE pads are more than I would pay, as I guess I will still shag them quickly. Braking performance (before cooking them) is excellent.
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Somehow missed the OE -v- TC club thread.... As far as i can suss, its only the leading edge of the TC pads that have a heavy chamfer thus, as far as I can deduce, should have no appreciable effect on the braking ewffort once properly bedded in, or am I missing something??
Suggest a re read. :-)
subtle as a boot in the 'dangle berries'.... keep taking the tablets....... ;)
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ok, full tablet version. The aftermarket pads are chamfered on both leading and trailing edges as is clearly shown in the picture. The oe pads have no chamfer. There by giving roughly a 1/3 increase in area. Maybe the picture thread didnt load correctly?
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I find it somewhat interesting that the TC ones are chamfered as a squeal reduction idea .. but the OE ones are not ... and don't squeal .....
Even though the materials must be different I wonder why ???
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as you say Entwood. I wondered if this is down to cost. Its cheaper, i guess, to fit one glued on shim and remove 1/3 of the pad area on the aftermarket pads than it is to rivet shims to all four pads and give the full pad area to use as on oe.
Must say I find it strange to dismiss the performance of oe without haveing tried them. Esp. given omegatoys recommendation. The price on the other hand, well thats another story.
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Sorry to sound silly -
TC pads - tradeclub?
OE - where do you get those? Dealers?
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in short yes and yes.
The cheaper, crap pads are defo on trade club and referred to as aftermarket.
The expensive pads are referred to as o.e. There seems to be some confusion as to weather these are on trace club. Andy c says not, but my dealer quoted £100 plus on retail. He then quoted 70 odd plus expensis on trade club. So i guess they are, at my dealer anyway. Hth
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Trade club pads are exactly that. Pads supplied to the trade so as to repair existing cars with assorted wear patterns on discs. OE pads are Original Equipement and are as per the original assembly line specification. The TC pads have a substantial chamfer on the leading and trailing edge so as to bed in better on esisting pads. The OE pads are straight edged with no chamfer. Whether the pad composition is the same or othertwise is another matter, however.
Personally, had no probs with the TC disc/pad kits as I tend to bed the pads and discs in genmtly before subjecting them to maximum braking effect in any event....
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Trade club pads are exactly that. Pads supplied to the trade so as to repair existing cars with assorted wear patterns on discs. OE pads are Original Equipement and are as per the original assembly line specification. The TC pads have a substantial chamfer on the leading and trailing edge so as to bed in better on esisting pads. The OE pads are straight edged with no chamfer. Whether the pad composition is the same or othertwise is another matter, however.
Personally, had no probs with the TC disc/pad kits as I tend to bed the pads and discs in genmtly before subjecting them to maximum braking effect in any event....
So can we explane why aftermarket/trade club pads are sold in the set with new discs? And why vx dealers ask if you have vented rear discs, as they take different pads to aftermarket items (oe in fact)
I can understand the chamfer being there to a point but it does seem ott. The pads will be well bedded in long before the bottom of the chamfer will be reached. Its a lazy way to do it, imho if the pads had direction arrows on them, effectively making them sided, then the chamfer would only be needed on the leading edge, as opposed to the trailing edge and only needs be be a fraction of its current size. But none of this explains why both Entwood and Kevin Woods pads squeal so loudly.
But regardless, we are missing the point somewhat,
Oe have superior performance. The whole dead spot of pedal travel where previously nothing happened has now gone. Replaced by progressive powerfull feel, i havent yet given them a proper work out though as they have only done 100 odd miles .
Having driven Kevins car and mine back to back i can honestly say i felt no difference between my brakes and his at the time, mine where worn his where new with the aftermarket. Mine did degenerate rapidly there after though.
Fitting oe to the rear as they should be with vented showed a better feel. This improvement didnt show when the aftermarket pads from the set where fitted. Def an improvement when oe fitted though.
And yes the compound is defo different, visually anyway. Less brass looking bits in the oe, this does not really show in the picture. Definately no "wood" in the oe compound anyway. :-)
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you say you have never had a problem with aftermarket pads, just a small point. If we never use anything different we will never know any different surely? Im fairly confident if oe where used we would soon see a problem with aftermarket.
But as said, price is another matter. Although if omegatoy is right, and he has been so far, then long term we may well be better off.
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Does it matter what is included in the disc kits? Is it relevent?
The fact is, you have found something that suits you :)
Like Hotel21, I am delighted with the TC stuff, though I do tend to glaze them a bit if I'm in a hurry ::). If I overcook them, I slap a new set on, not an issue at £12 a pop. I am delighted with the braking performance up until the point they cook - I guess to get better than this would be in the realms of track pads, with the issues that presents.
Having driven Omegatoys rather speedy estate tractor, I don't think the brakes are any better or any worse than mine, though I guess his comments about less brake dust means less servicing, but thats not a problem anyway.
I have had pattern discs and pads on my MV6, so do know what real crap brakes are ;D
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And chrisgixer, you can't really compare the braking performance, as your old discs were shot to bits?
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Does it matter what is included in the disc kits? Is it relevent?
Yes!
1, every time i ask for pads they want to know if the rear discs are vented.
so they know what pads to sell you, vented discs means oe pads they say.
2, the same vented discs are in the box for the front axle but sold with, if the above is true, THE WRONG PADS! ie aftermarket/tradeclub.
By Mr 21s own quote..."Trade club pads are exactly that. Pads supplied to the trade so as to repair existing cars with assorted wear patterns on discs" ie not new, but part worn discs...
So why are they sold with new discs in the kit if they are "for non vented "or "part worn discs"...? purely because of price at the expence of all else it seems, icludeing a certain amount of safety given the wear pattern seen on Andy Bs and my discs, all be it below the disc wear limit. Unfortunately i didnt measure mine before binning them :-[
Ultimately... Why are we seeing this wear pattern on the inboard face of the outer edge of all 4 discs when using aftermarket pads? and why are they sqeeling so badly in some cases?....is it because they are the wrong pads for new /vented discs?....or are they just crap in general?...are they different spec of late?...or is it purely the discs are under the wear limit? omegatoy says not, hes been bang on so far.
If you want to do a back to back test i still have the aftermarket pads. :y
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Does it matter what is included in the disc kits? Is it relevent?
Yes!
1, every time i ask for pads they want to know if the rear discs are vented.
so they know what pads to sell you, vented discs means oe pads they say.
2, the same vented discs are in the box for the front axle but sold with, if the above is true, THE WRONG PADS! ie aftermarket/tradeclub.
By Mr 21s own quote..."Trade club pads are exactly that. Pads supplied to the trade so as to repair existing cars with assorted wear patterns on discs" ie not new, but part worn discs...
So why are they sold with new discs in the kit if they are "for non vented "or "part worn discs"...? purely because of price at the expence of all else it seems, icludeing a certain amount of safety given the wear pattern seen on Andy Bs and my discs, all be it below the disc wear limit. Unfortunately i didnt measure mine before binning them :-[
Ultimately... Why are we seeing this wear pattern on the inboard face of the outer edge of all 4 discs when using aftermarket pads? and why are they sqeeling so badly in some cases?....is it because they are the wrong pads for new /vented discs?....or are they just crap in general?...are they different spec of late?...or is it purely the discs are under the wear limit? omegatoy says not, hes been bang on so far.
If you want to do a back to back test i still have the aftermarket pads. :y
I have seen that odd inside disc damage on Omegas that have never had the pads replaced. It is unrelated to the pads from what I have seen
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I have seen that odd inside disc damage on Omegas that have never had the pads replaced. It is unrelated to the pads from what I have seen
I agree. Have seen the same on many a car where it sits idle for days on end over an extended period and the calipers get little or no cleaning/maintenance until the pads wear out and go metal to metal.
I remain unconvinced that its down to type/make/co,pound of the pads. Its plain poor maintenance/use, in my experience...
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Does it matter what is included in the disc kits? Is it relevent?
Yes!
1, every time i ask for pads they want to know if the rear discs are vented.
so they know what pads to sell you, vented discs means oe pads they say.
2, the same vented discs are in the box for the front axle but sold with, if the above is true, THE WRONG PADS! ie aftermarket/tradeclub.
By Mr 21s own quote..."Trade club pads are exactly that. Pads supplied to the trade so as to repair existing cars with assorted wear patterns on discs" ie not new, but part worn discs...
So why are they sold with new discs in the kit if they are "for non vented "or "part worn discs"...? purely because of price at the expence of all else it seems, icludeing a certain amount of safety given the wear pattern seen on Andy Bs and my discs, all be it below the disc wear limit. Unfortunately i didnt measure mine before binning them :-[
Ultimately... Why are we seeing this wear pattern on the inboard face of the outer edge of all 4 discs when using aftermarket pads? and why are they sqeeling so badly in some cases?....is it because they are the wrong pads for new /vented discs?....or are they just crap in general?...are they different spec of late?...or is it purely the discs are under the wear limit? omegatoy says not, hes been bang on so far.
If you want to do a back to back test i still have the aftermarket pads. :y
I have seen that odd inside disc damage on Omegas that have never had the pads replaced. It is unrelated to the pads from what I have seen
Bah, no conspiracy then.... ;D
Still leaves the sqeel and poor performance, and yes i have compared both sets of pads with new discs. :)
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Have seen the same on many a car where it sits idle for days on end over an extended period and .......
That sums my Omega up then! :y
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Bah, no conspiracy then.... ;D
Still leaves the sqeel and poor performance, and yes i have compared both sets of pads with new discs. :)
Just checked my records and had a feel of my disks. Disks and pads changed 11K ago, loads of brake dust and squealing since and there's a worrying wear ridge on the outer edge of the inside of one of the front disks. ::)
I wonder if there has been a recent change in the quality of these pads.. like there has been with the exhausts, etc?
Just wonder if it's only those of us who have fitted them relatively recently who are moaning?
I have to say I'm not unhappy with the braking performance, if you can stand the din. Perhaps I should just take to driving this car with the ear defenders in, like I do the Westfield.
Kevin
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Perhaps I should just take to driving this car with the ear defenders in, like I do the Westfield.
Kevin
[size=14]YER WHAT? SAY AGAIN!!!!![/size] ;D ;D
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I have seen that odd inside disc damage on Omegas that have never had the pads replaced. It is unrelated to the pads from what I have seen
I agree. Have seen the same on many a car where it sits idle for days on end over an extended period and the calipers get little or no cleaning/maintenance until the pads wear out and go metal to metal.
I remain unconvinced that its down to type/make/co,pound of the pads. Its plain poor maintenance/use, in my experience...
A few mentions of lack of use on previous threads, more than possible on my car, the under side is not great and gives the impression of some standing time or salt exposure either sea or grit. Regards maintenance, in my case there is no sign of any neglect other than the funny wear pattern and age, sliders well greased, pistons retract very easily, the outside disc face is fine, just mullered as shown. There was plenty of meat left on both pads, the wear sensor was only tripped by the raised area of strange wear. If the wear was even on the inboard edge the sensor would not have tripped. There in lies a clue imho.
For the wear to leave a raised area on the disc the pad has to be clear of the disc in that area, lower basically. I posted pics on my thread showing the pads with signs of lumps missing. Although impossible to tell if the disc had damaged the pad causing the missing lump or it fell away for some other reason. Frost possibly? But the pad surely must be missing in that area for the swept area to reduce as it has.
In Kevins case i doubt he has a maintenance issue or that his car is left standing for unreasonable amounts of time. If the wear line is showing after 11k then somethings def not right, and probably worth a warranty claim...?
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Bah, no conspiracy then.... ;D
Still leaves the sqeel and poor performance, and yes i have compared both sets of pads with new discs. :)
Just checked my records and had a feel of my disks. Disks and pads changed 11K ago, loads of brake dust and squealing since and there's a worrying wear ridge on the outer edge of the inside of one of the front disks. ::)
Ill bet a small pint( ;) ) there is a lump or area missing on the corresponding pad....? (only a small pint mind :-) no one will notice )
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Bah, no conspiracy then.... ;D
Still leaves the sqeel and poor performance, and yes i have compared both sets of pads with new discs. :)
Just checked my records and had a feel of my disks. Disks and pads changed 11K ago, loads of brake dust and squealing since and there's a worrying wear ridge on the outer edge of the inside of one of the front disks. ::)
I wonder if there has been a recent change in the quality of these pads.. like there has been with the exhausts, etc?
Just wonder if it's only those of us who have fitted them relatively recently who are moaning?
I have to say I'm not unhappy with the braking performance, if you can stand the din. Perhaps I should just take to driving this car with the ear defenders in, like I do the Westfield.
Kevin
Last changed my pads about 2 months ago (cooked previous set again), previous set a few months before that, discs about a year ago. Rarely had any squeal with genuine stuff :-/
Think that rules out the latest stuff, unless its because I don't get that much use from the pads...
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This latest set of TC pads are different from the last. Last set I bought had directional arrows on 2 of them, those fitted at the week end didn't have any.
And I've never had any squeal from either front or back brakes.
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This latest set of TC pads are different from the last. Last set I bought had directional arrows on 2 of them, those fitted at the week end didn't have any.
And I've never had any squeal from either front or back brakes.
Same here, re arrows.....and squeak :-)
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Well, I put TC discs and pads on mine at 160k and I am now on 188 with the same set - never squeaked, have gone a bit hot on occasion but generally performed well. I personally don't feel the need to ugrade to OE, esecially at 6 times the price.
Perhaps I'm just gentle on them :-/
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they certainly are expensive, made by Jurid for GM going by the markings on the back. Having tried both sets back to back on the same new discs oe are better, less pedal pressure for better more progressive bite, make the old pads feel wooden, or contaminated with oil, they just dont generate the friction imho, something i have been moaning about since i joined oof. Well happy now though. :-) if a little light in the wallet.
Should add oe do not need any heat in them to work. Something associated with anything other than aftermarket/trade club pads it seems.
Ironic really, as i think TC pads dont work at ANY temp.
But if you are happy with your brakes performance, obviously save your cash. :-)
However if your going through 4 or 5 sets of pads to one set of discs, why bugger about? for another 20 sobs for a front set have brakes that work, surely?
(i am getting ahead of my self a bit here as i havent had a chance to get them cooking yet, 5 dot fluid in it so should be able to to "test" fully [smiley=evil.gif])
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I suspect I'd cook oe as quickly as I cook tc, which would make it a bit dear for me...
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I suspect I'd cook oe as quickly as I cook tc, which would make it a bit dear for me...
Indeed it would, depends if oe work outside your envelope tc clearly dont. Will report back on "my envelope" nearer the end of the week if i get a chance and enough miles on them.
Only one way to find out, am interested to see for myself. :-)
Edit to add, i guy posted on another thread he still had Jurid pads in his police spec Mv6 iirc.