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[STEMO]

Interesting article on how the battle was fought, with lessons learned from a previous one:

The forgotten referendum of 2011 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56435341

[Sir Tigger KC]

In the 2015 General Election UKIP got 4 million votes, but only one MP if I recall correctly. 

Under the AV system, I wonder how many MP's they would have got and would they have had enough influence to change any of the outcomes? 

[Nick W]

In the 2015 General Election UKIP got 4 million votes, but only one MP if I recall correctly. 

Under the AV system, I wonder how many MP's they would have got and would they have had enough influence to change any of the outcomes? 

They would have needed lots of electable candidates. When you look at the people involved in UKIP and those who actually stood, you'll realise they were never going to be elected. For all his talked about popularity, Farage himself couldn't get elected as an MP.

[Doctor Gollum]

He was elected as an MP, just not in Westminster 

[Sir Tigger KC]

In the 2015 General Election UKIP got 4 million votes, but only one MP if I recall correctly. 

Under the AV system, I wonder how many MP's they would have got and would they have had enough influence to change any of the outcomes? 

They would have needed lots of electable candidates. When you look at the people involved in UKIP and those who actually stood, you'll realise they were never going to be elected. For all his talked about popularity, Farage himself couldn't get elected as an MP.

You are discounting the vagaries of alternative voting systems Nick.  Look at the numpties that get elected to the Scottish and EU parliaments.   

[Nick W]

In the 2015 General Election UKIP got 4 million votes, but only one MP if I recall correctly. 

Under the AV system, I wonder how many MP's they would have got and would they have had enough influence to change any of the outcomes? 

They would have needed lots of electable candidates. When you look at the people involved in UKIP and those who actually stood, you'll realise they were never going to be elected. For all his talked about popularity, Farage himself couldn't get elected as an MP.

You are discounting the vagaries of alternative voting systems Nick.  Look at the numpties that get elected to the Scottish and EU parliaments. 

Farage for example.


But you're ignoring the fact that to form or even influence a government takes more than a couple of freaks charismatic, narrowly focused, niche politicians that somehow managed to get elected. Look at the Green Party; its manifesto is hardly niche even in the UK, but after many years of high profile campaigning has one elected MP, and two Lords. As far as parliament is concerned, they're utterly insignificant. Our +/- 2 party, first past the post system emphasises this effect, but it's also true where proportional representation or other methods are used.


The eleven Lib Dem MPs might be enough to just swing a majority if required, especially as many current centrist Tories really ought to be Lib Dems if ambition wasn't clouding their judgement; Boris Johnson is a good example.


UKIP achieved its aims by using popular (but not electoral) support to hammer a wedge into already existing cracks in both Labour and more significantly Conservative parties. It's very nature was never going to survive a Leave result.

[Sir Tigger KC]

In the 2015 General Election UKIP got 4 million votes, but only one MP if I recall correctly. 

Under the AV system, I wonder how many MP's they would have got and would they have had enough influence to change any of the outcomes? 

They would have needed lots of electable candidates. When you look at the people involved in UKIP and those who actually stood, you'll realise they were never going to be elected. For all his talked about popularity, Farage himself couldn't get elected as an MP.

You are discounting the vagaries of alternative voting systems Nick.  Look at the numpties that get elected to the Scottish and EU parliaments. 

Farage for example.

But you're ignoring the fact that to form or even influence a government takes more than a couple of freaks charismatic, narrowly focused, niche politicians that somehow managed to get elected. Look at the Green Party; its manifesto is hardly niche even in the UK, but after many years of high profile campaigning has one elected MP, and two Lords. As far as parliament is concerned, they're utterly insignificant. Our +/- 2 party, first past the post system emphasises this effect, but it's also true where proportional representation or other methods are used.


The eleven Lib Dem MPs might be enough to just swing a majority if required, especially as many current centrist Tories really ought to be Lib Dems if ambition wasn't clouding their judgement; Boris Johnson is a good example.


UKIP achieved its aims by using popular (but not electoral) support to hammer a wedge into already existing cracks in both Labour and more significantly Conservative parties. It's very nature was never going to survive a Leave result.

Nonsense. 

Without Farage's UKIP success in the 2014 EU parliament elections I doubt David Cameron would have made it a manifesto promise to hold an in/out referendum on our membership of the EU and his success with the Brexit Party in the 2019 EU parliament elections arguably brought down Teresa May, ushering in Boris Johnson as Prime Minister ensuring that we actually left the EU.

So Farage's popular and electoral success proved that the Tories will effectively blow with the wind to stay in power, as it was quite clear that the Conservative government under Theresa May had no intention of leaving the EU in any meaningful way, if at all. 

[Nick W]

You're confusing government and party. Being PM was Cameron's side job as a result of being elected leader of his party.


UKIP's nebulous political support split the Conservative party, and Cameron promised them a referendum to shift the blame. That looked a safe(ish) gamble at the time, because everybody expected roughly the numbers that happened, but for them to be the other way.

[Sir Tigger KC]

You're confusing government and party. Being PM was Cameron's side job as a result of being elected leader of his party.


UKIP's nebulous political support split the Conservative party, and Cameron promised them a referendum to shift the blame. That looked a safe(ish) gamble at the time, because everybody expected roughly the numbers that happened, but for them to be the other way.

I'm not confusing anything.  The Tories see themselves rather arrogantly as the natural party of government and Farage with UKIP and then the Brexit Party proved that they can be influenced.

I wouldn't describe UKIP's support under Farage as nebulous either.  Although their support base was much smaller than the Tories or Labour, I think it was pretty solid while Farage was leader and was attracting voters/members from both parties, but especially the Tories which obviously worried Tory HQ.

[Nick W]

Nebulous - vague, and ill-defined.


Which explains why UKIP ceased to operate effectively as soon as the referendum was 'won'

[Sir Tigger KC]

Nebulous - vague, and ill-defined.


Which explains why UKIP ceased to operate effectively as soon as the referendum was 'won'

How can you describe UKIP under Farage as nebulous? 

They were pretty much a single issue party, so I would say they were very defined in their aims. 

[Nick W]

Nebulous - vague, and ill-defined.


Which explains why UKIP ceased to operate effectively as soon as the referendum was 'won'

How can you describe UKIP under Farage as nebulous? 

They were pretty much a single issue party, so I would say they were very defined in their aims. 

Read it again:


Nebulous support. It came from all over the spectrum, and trickled back after the referendum




UKIP was clear about its aims. I've written several times that Farage is likely to be the most successful 21st century British politician in that he achieved what he set out to do, having started from nothing. He's a good candidate for the House of Lords.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Nebulous - vague, and ill-defined.


Which explains why UKIP ceased to operate effectively as soon as the referendum was 'won'

How can you describe UKIP under Farage as nebulous? 

They were pretty much a single issue party, so I would say they were very defined in their aims. 

Read it again:


Nebulous support. It came from all over the spectrum, and trickled back after the referendum




UKIP was clear about its aims. I've written several times that Farage is likely to be the most successful 21st century British politician in that he achieved what he set out to do, having started from nothing. He's a good candidate for the House of Lords.

Read my reply again.  I don't accept that pre referendum UKIP had nebulous support.  Quite the opposite in fact. 

Post referendum and after Farage stood down thinking job jobbed, then definitely.

[Doctor Gollum]

Keep the noise down, you'll wake Queen Liz

UKIP served one purpose, and once fulfilled, it became somewhat superfluous. Handing the party reins over to the BNP mob was quite shrewd as it proved that we aren't actually a nation of racist bigots. Which is why UKIP is now defunct as a political force.

Farages latest campaign is on a different course as a politically independent party offering an alternative to the current status quo. I expect it to do reasonably well in the up coming local elections and if not the next GE, then certainly the one after.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Keep the noise down, you'll wake Queen Liz

UKIP served one purpose, and once fulfilled, it became somewhat superfluous. Handing the party reins over to the BNP mob was quite shrewd as it proved that we aren't actually a nation of racist bigots. Which is why UKIP is now defunct as a political force.

Farages latest campaign is on a different course as a politically independent party offering an alternative to the current status quo. I expect it to do reasonably well in the up coming local elections and if not the next GE, then certainly the one after.

    Oh, do not worry DG I am wide awake and casually watching this thread

However, for me BREXIT (oh, damn I have used that word I never wanted to use again!! )  is dead and buried so will not comment further.

Bigger things to worry about now

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Your behind the times STEMO. Farage announced his retirement from Politics a fortnight ago.
Richard Tice is now leader of the Reform Party. 

[STEMO]

How am I behind the times, Paddy. I don't think you find any mention of UKIP or Farage in my post. 

[STEMO]

In fact, I think you'll find that my OP had nothing to do with anything that followed. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

In fact, I think you'll find that my OP had nothing to do with anything that followed. 

Yes it did.  I wondered how UKIP would have fared under the AV system and it all followed on from there. 

[STEMO]

In fact, I think you'll find that my OP had nothing to do with anything that followed. 

Yes it did.  I wondered how UKIP would have fared under the AV system and it all followed on from there. 

No, no mention of UKIP. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

In fact, I think you'll find that my OP had nothing to do with anything that followed. 

Yes it did.  I wondered how UKIP would have fared under the AV system and it all followed on from there. 

No, no mention of UKIP. 

No but it mentioned the AV system. 

[STEMO]

In fact, I think you'll find that my OP had nothing to do with anything that followed. 

Yes it did.  I wondered how UKIP would have fared under the AV system and it all followed on from there. 

No, no mention of UKIP. 

No but it mentioned the AV system. 

Yes, it did, but it didn't mention how the Monster Raving Loony party might have done. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Keep the noise down, you'll wake Queen Liz

UKIP served one purpose, and once fulfilled, it became somewhat superfluous. Handing the party reins over to the BNP mob was quite shrewd as it proved that we aren't actually a nation of racist bigots. Which is why UKIP is now defunct as a political force.

Farages latest campaign is on a different course as a politically independent party offering an alternative to the current status quo. I expect it to do reasonably well in the up coming local elections and if not the next GE, then certainly the one after.

Specsavers appointment booked.   
Could have sworn the scouser posted this.

[Doctor Gollum]

Keep the noise down, you'll wake Queen Liz

UKIP served one purpose, and once fulfilled, it became somewhat superfluous. Handing the party reins over to the BNP mob was quite shrewd as it proved that we aren't actually a nation of racist bigots. Which is why UKIP is now defunct as a political force.

Farages latest campaign is on a different course as a politically independent party offering an alternative to the current status quo. I expect it to do reasonably well in the up coming local elections and if not the next GE, then certainly the one after.

Specsavers appointment booked.   
Could have sworn the scouser posted this.

Which should give an idea of how often I watch the news

[Sir Tigger KC]

In fact, I think you'll find that my OP had nothing to do with anything that followed. 

Yes it did.  I wondered how UKIP would have fared under the AV system and it all followed on from there. 

No, no mention of UKIP. 

No but it mentioned the AV system. 

Yes, it did, but it didn't mention how the Monster Raving Loony party might have done. 

No.  How do you think they might done Uncle STEMO? 

I think they might have been a bit nebulous.