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[dbug]

Tramlining - the wider the tyre the greater the tendency to tramline - fact (you seem to contradict yourself above gixer)
But - there are many more tyre "issues" that affect tramlining - pressures (need to use a properly calibrated tyre gauge to test not a Halfords cheapo!!), side wall flexability, rubber composition, ambient temperatures, et alia et alia. . .  and last but not least the foibles of the car itself, differences in suspension set up, suspension/steering wear, chassis straightness etc etc.  No 2 "identical" cars ever drive the same at "extremes" of performance/handling.

Ever towed a horsebox with 2 large horses in - they move about - and crossplys at higher psi a lot more stable than radials with softer sidewalls - less flexing.

Recognise you have a hell of a lot of variables to understand trying to compare performance of different tyres on different cars using different drivers!!  The way to do it is to be scientific (professional not amateur) - as in my days of tyre testing for Dunlop, and among others Eric Broadley's mob, both on the track and on the road.

 

dbug - I know from private conversations that you have lots to offer this tyre debate, and I fully understand your reasons for not wishing too.

  not being controversial just factual Jaime and will sit back and watch proceedings (unless of course I get slagged off again) - understand your issues with sc5 (obviously not suited to Omegas set up, but may probably work well on other marques else they wouldn't sell ) - but your tramlining would be even wosre with wider sc5s 

I think thats the problem with tyres - too many variables. I've said on numerous occasions that I bet SC5s are great on Golfs etc. Just unsuited to Omegas. Unsure why that is so - if we could understand that, then we would be better placed in being able to choose tyres with less risk.

Think I've said it before - years ago Goodyear G800s worked very well on Cooper Ss, but I had a set on a TR4 (on it when I bought it) and they were lethal.  Put XASs on and brilliant handling (ie suited to my driving style which was a little on the quick side), but XASs on Coopers were pretty crap to say the least.  Put that down to completely differing suspension set ups on different types of car.

Whoops wasn't TR4 was a TR6 PI   Senior moment

[05omegav6]

FFS Cem you insist on your point of view being the only one. It isn't.

Yet these reviews you hold so highly are based on tests using different sizes to those fitted to the Omega, and are predominately carried out using front wheel drive cars.

My so called '40th rated tyres' actually hold their own in grand scheme of things. They work in real life on a real car in the actual sizes that were fitted to the Omega as standard

You have also taken my comment about the way the Omega performs completely out of context. Given that it is a two tonne four door saloon, the Omega can be set up in such a way that it can be quite nimble. I have only ever owned 3.2 manual estates with LSDs, which are considerably more performance oriented than the 2.5 ever could be.

Congratulations on once again turning what should have been a sensible conversation into an 'I know best' farce

If your sole reason for this is to wind people up, the well done, because it's worked

[dbug]

Tramlining - the wider the tyre the greater the tendency to tramline - fact (you seem to contradict yourself above gixer)
But - there are many more tyre "issues" that affect tramlining - pressures (need to use a properly calibrated tyre gauge to test not a Halfords cheapo!!), side wall flexability, rubber composition, ambient temperatures, et alia et alia. . .  and last but not least the foibles of the car itself, differences in suspension set up, suspension/steering wear, chassis straightness etc etc.  No 2 "identical" cars ever drive the same at "extremes" of performance/handling.

Ever towed a horsebox with 2 large horses in - they move about - and crossplys at higher psi a lot more stable than radials with softer sidewalls - less flexing.

Recognise you have a hell of a lot of variables to understand trying to compare performance of different tyres on different cars using different drivers!!  The way to do it is to be scientific (professional not amateur) - as in my days of tyre testing for Dunlop, and among others Eric Broadley's mob, both on the track and on the road.

 

 

Well seeing as I'm being slagged off....your wrong!

Falkens aside, I've had more tyres that didn't tram line that did. There's no contradiction. The tyres that didn't tramline are clear. The tendency to tram line on wider lower tyres is accepted, but as you've seen there equally tyres that don't tram line. SIZE IS NOT THE ULTIMATE CAUSE.

I see dbug is also in cem mode.

Why don't you read posts properly before responding?  I am talking from a long experience of tyres, their construction and constituent "chemicals", and professional tyre testing.  I did not say tyre size is the ultimate cause of tramlining, just a factor, along with a vast number of other factors.

I am not slagging you off - I credited you with more intelligence for you to think that - obviously I was wrong!

Guess I was right to keep my practical experiences re professional tyre testing to myself.

[05omegav6]

contis have very high levels of grip.. you could have used sizes 215/225 50 55 17 with less tramlining..

No they don't. SC5s have relatively poor levels of grip. Immediately apparent from the journey back from having them fitted. I was hoping it was just the release agent, but its not.

Would we agree that narrower tyres (in wet/dry) conditions have less grip? So you are suggesting a size giving even less grip than what is on there now, currently providing, at best, adequate grip?

Ok so basically when GM prescribed specific tyre and wheel combinations, they were wrong

IIRC, F/L sizes are 225/55/16, 235/45/17, 245/40/18, with a couple of acceptable alternatives in 18"

[Del Boy]

I think SC5's are a step back from SC3's, and they were a step back from SC2's.

My eldest boys Corsa does not tramline, fact, that's running Uniroyal RainSport 2's 215/45/17, it does not tramline simple as that, and it is possibly the best setup, and one of the best handling cars I've ever driven. My E92 M3 did not tramline at all, that had Michelin Pilot Sports 245/35/19. My 520d tramlines on Goodyear Excellence 225/55/17.

[feeutfo]

Tramlining - the wider the tyre the greater the tendency to tramline - fact (you seem to contradict yourself above gixer)
But - there are many more tyre "issues" that affect tramlining - pressures (need to use a properly calibrated tyre gauge to test not a Halfords cheapo!!), side wall flexability, rubber composition, ambient temperatures, et alia et alia. . .  and last but not least the foibles of the car itself, differences in suspension set up, suspension/steering wear, chassis straightness etc etc.  No 2 "identical" cars ever drive the same at "extremes" of performance/handling.

Ever towed a horsebox with 2 large horses in - they move about - and crossplys at higher psi a lot more stable than radials with softer sidewalls - less flexing.

Recognise you have a hell of a lot of variables to understand trying to compare performance of different tyres on different cars using different drivers!!  The way to do it is to be scientific (professional not amateur) - as in my days of tyre testing for Dunlop, and among others Eric Broadley's mob, both on the track and on the road.

 

 

Well seeing as I'm being slagged off....your wrong!

Falkens aside, I've had more tyres that didn't tram line that did. There's no contradiction. The tyres that didn't tramline are clear. The tendency to tram line on wider lower tyres is accepted, but as you've seen there equally tyres that don't tram line. SIZE IS NOT THE ULTIMATE CAUSE.

I see dbug is also in cem mode.

Why don't you read posts properly before responding?  I am talking from a long experience of tyres, their construction and constituent "chemicals", and professional tyre testing.  I did not say tyre size is the ultimate cause of tramlining, just a factor, along with a vast number of other factors.

I am not slagging you off - I credited you with more intelligence for you to think that - obviously I was wrong!

Guess I was right to keep my practical experiences re professional tyre testing to myself.

Precisely! You haven't read mine properly either. You've chosen to be combative. Fine.


Lets start again, IMO, the dynamics involved are not relayed to size. We've disproved that I think you agree?

So, by default, we need to disprove the next theory ( or prove it ) to nail this down. Somehow. Being honest, I don't know where to look next. Other than load ratings.

I believe load ratings might vary from one maker to another. Perhaps?

[TheBoy]

Tramlining - the wider the tyre the greater the tendency to tramline - fact (you seem to contradict yourself above gixer)
But - there are many more tyre "issues" that affect tramlining - pressures (need to use a properly calibrated tyre gauge to test not a Halfords cheapo!!), side wall flexability, rubber composition, ambient temperatures, et alia et alia. . .  and last but not least the foibles of the car itself, differences in suspension set up, suspension/steering wear, chassis straightness etc etc.  No 2 "identical" cars ever drive the same at "extremes" of performance/handling.

Ever towed a horsebox with 2 large horses in - they move about - and crossplys at higher psi a lot more stable than radials with softer sidewalls - less flexing.

Recognise you have a hell of a lot of variables to understand trying to compare performance of different tyres on different cars using different drivers!!  The way to do it is to be scientific (professional not amateur) - as in my days of tyre testing for Dunlop, and among others Eric Broadley's mob, both on the track and on the road.

 

 

Well seeing as I'm being slagged off....your wrong!

Falkens aside, I've had more tyres that didn't tram line that did. There's no contradiction. The tyres that didn't tramline are clear. The tendency to tram line on wider lower tyres is accepted, but as you've seen there equally tyres that don't tram line. SIZE IS NOT THE ULTIMATE CAUSE.

I see dbug is also in cem mode.

I think you 2 are basically agreeing on things, but too afraid to admit it

Come on, keep it civil, we all have a lot to learn from each other, if only we allow that to happen.

[feeutfo]

Tramlining - the wider the tyre the greater the tendency to tramline - fact (you seem to contradict yourself above gixer)
But - there are many more tyre "issues" that affect tramlining - pressures (need to use a properly calibrated tyre gauge to test not a Halfords cheapo!!), side wall flexability, rubber composition, ambient temperatures, et alia et alia. . .  and last but not least the foibles of the car itself, differences in suspension set up, suspension/steering wear, chassis straightness etc etc.  No 2 "identical" cars ever drive the same at "extremes" of performance/handling.

Ever towed a horsebox with 2 large horses in - they move about - and crossplys at higher psi a lot more stable than radials with softer sidewalls - less flexing.

Recognise you have a hell of a lot of variables to understand trying to compare performance of different tyres on different cars using different drivers!!  The way to do it is to be scientific (professional not amateur) - as in my days of tyre testing for Dunlop, and among others Eric Broadley's mob, both on the track and on the road.

 

 

Well seeing as I'm being slagged off....your wrong!

Falkens aside, I've had more tyres that didn't tram line that did. There's no contradiction. The tyres that didn't tramline are clear. The tendency to tram line on wider lower tyres is accepted, but as you've seen there equally tyres that don't tram line. SIZE IS NOT THE ULTIMATE CAUSE.

I see dbug is also in cem mode.

I think you 2 are basically agreeing on things, but too afraid to admit it

Come on, keep it civil, we all have a lot to learn from each other, if only we allow that to happen.

As previous post...

[dbug]

Tramlining - the wider the tyre the greater the tendency to tramline - fact (you seem to contradict yourself above gixer)
But - there are many more tyre "issues" that affect tramlining - pressures (need to use a properly calibrated tyre gauge to test not a Halfords cheapo!!), side wall flexability, rubber composition, ambient temperatures, et alia et alia. . .  and last but not least the foibles of the car itself, differences in suspension set up, suspension/steering wear, chassis straightness etc etc.  No 2 "identical" cars ever drive the same at "extremes" of performance/handling.

Ever towed a horsebox with 2 large horses in - they move about - and crossplys at higher psi a lot more stable than radials with softer sidewalls - less flexing.

Recognise you have a hell of a lot of variables to understand trying to compare performance of different tyres on different cars using different drivers!!  The way to do it is to be scientific (professional not amateur) - as in my days of tyre testing for Dunlop, and among others Eric Broadley's mob, both on the track and on the road.

 

 

Well seeing as I'm being slagged off....your wrong!

Falkens aside, I've had more tyres that didn't tram line that did. There's no contradiction. The tyres that didn't tramline are clear. The tendency to tram line on wider lower tyres is accepted, but as you've seen there equally tyres that don't tram line. SIZE IS NOT THE ULTIMATE CAUSE.

I see dbug is also in cem mode.

I think you 2 are basically agreeing on things, but too afraid to admit it

Come on, keep it civil, we all have a lot to learn from each other, if only we allow that to happen.

Knew I shouldn't have posted - as said will now sit on the sidelines, watch and chuckle every now and again.
At least I won't be competing for the last word 

[TheBoy]

You've chosen to be combative.

Errrr, sat back here, you aren't exactly coming across as being non combative yourself


I know they has been some utter 'dangle berries' on this, and other, threads, which clearly aren't true. But we are also seeing, amongst the bickering, some useful snippets coming through.

We'll get nowhere if members are prepared to listen to other viewpoints...  ...you never know, some people may actually know more about the subject than you, I, anyone gives them credit for

[TheBoy]

Right locking 

[TheBoy]

And its pissed me off, as I was thinking we may get closer to why the SC5s are so bad on the Omega.

[TheBoy]

As I thought we were beginning to get somewhere, and in order to assist SMD get some help on his problem, I am going to reopen this.

But there are some house rules, and anyone not abiding by them will see (possibly) temporary bans.

I shouldn't have to spell it out, we all understand the behaviour expected, but:

No bickering, fighting or general unpleasantness, and no comments purely to stir someone else. It will not be tolerated at all 


Here is what I know from personal experience (not what is written on the internet in irrelevent tests), except the first, which is traditional wisdom:
1) Traditional wisdom states that wider tyres and lower profiles gives a greater tendency to tramline, all other things equal, but does not necessarily mean a tyre will tramline.
2) Not all tyres (discernably) tramline.
3) On a well set up Omega, Sport Maxx TT 235/45/17 Y94 seems to be the benchmark in stability.
4) On same Omega, Continental SC5 235/40/18 Y94 seem to be at the bottom end of the scale for stability.
5) Four different budget tyres, including a mixture of winter and summer tyres, on the same Omega, does not tramline much.
6) SC3s are variable, depending on manufacturer specific sub models, meaning that a wider, lower profile tyre can be tramline free, and a narrower tyre can tramline.
(I am not mentioning Runway Enduros here, as I have not personally driven a "known" Omega with them on, so although I know that people I respect when it comes to tyres say they are a stable tyre, I have no personal experience, thus unqualified to comment - there has been too much heresay and speculation on this thread, and some people's opinions, without experience, portrayed as fact)


The 2 Omegas I have are set up to the WIM standard, with the exception of the 4 budgets on TBE, which was set at the time to an aggressive fast road setting - although these tyres reacted the same on the Silver Bullet that has always had the WIM standard settings.


Certainly with the Sport Maxx TT and the SC5, swapping between the cars, the tramline moves with the tyres. And going from the 4 different budgets to the SC5, the car went from "fairly stable, but not enough grip in the wet" to "very bad tramlining, and poor grip, esp under braking".

So, we can conclude, pretty convincingly, the issue lies with the tyres in this case (although we know that chassis issues can cause tramlining).


Remember, play nicely, or accept you will see a ban. Or shut up.

[05omegav6]

At risk of repeating myself

So what are the exact differences between Entwoods car and SMDs 

The answer to SMDs problem lies in here somewhere....

Could Entwoods car set up be measured in 3D and those settings be replicated on SMDs, ideally on the same machine, with the same operator, and back to back

If SMDs car still misbehaves afterwards, then individual components would need to be closely checked for irregularities

Could it be something as innocuous as an oval bolt hole on the subframe causing one arm to sit at a different angle to the other one A 0.25mm discrepancy at the rear bush could put the ball joint 5-6mm out, which would bugger up the front end geometry completely...

[cem_devecioglu]

As I thought we were beginning to get somewhere, and in order to assist SMD get some help on his problem, I am going to reopen this.

But there are some house rules, and anyone not abiding by them will see (possibly) temporary bans.

I shouldn't have to spell it out, we all understand the behaviour expected, but:

No bickering, fighting or general unpleasantness, and no comments purely to stir someone else. It will not be tolerated at all 


Here is what I know from personal experience (not what is written on the internet in irrelevent tests), except the first, which is traditional wisdom:
1) Traditional wisdom states that wider tyres and lower profiles gives a greater tendency to tramline, all other things equal, but does not necessarily mean a tyre will tramline.
2) Not all tyres (discernably) tramline.
3) On a well set up Omega, Sport Maxx TT 235/45/17 Y94 seems to be the benchmark in stability.
4) On same Omega, Continental SC5 235/40/18 Y94 seem to be at the bottom end of the scale for stability.
5) Four different budget tyres, including a mixture of winter and summer tyres, on the same Omega, does not tramline much.
6) SC3s are variable, depending on manufacturer specific sub models, meaning that a wider, lower profile tyre can be tramline free, and a narrower tyre can tramline.
(I am not mentioning Runway Enduros here, as I have not personally driven a "known" Omega with them on, so although I know that people I respect when it comes to tyres say they are a stable tyre, I have no personal experience, thus unqualified to comment - there has been too much heresay and speculation on this thread, and some people's opinions, without experience, portrayed as fact)


The 2 Omegas I have are set up to the WIM standard, with the exception of the 4 budgets on TBE, which was set at the time to an aggressive fast road setting - although these tyres reacted the same on the Silver Bullet that has always had the WIM standard settings.


Certainly with the Sport Maxx TT and the SC5, swapping between the cars, the tramline moves with the tyres. And going from the 4 different budgets to the SC5, the car went from "fairly stable, but not enough grip in the wet" to "very bad tramlining, and poor grip, esp under braking".

So, we can conclude, pretty convincingly, the issue lies with the tyres in this case (although we know that chassis issues can cause tramlining).


Remember, play nicely, or accept you will see a ban. Or shut up.

ok , to understand your experience and view I have few questions .. and I'll be glad if you answer them
 
when did you install sc5 (which month) ?
what was the temperature like on your daily commute road (like 0-10 celcius eg) ?
how will you define the roads (perfect asphalt, coarse, lots of curves etc) ?
whats the the distance you travel (going and coming back) ?
how can you define the road traffic (very crowded so you hardly move, crowded,empty etc) ?
what pressures you use ?
are they XL rating ?
whats your rating for SC5 for dry braking (90% eg) ?
                          "          dry cornering (80% eg) ?
                          "          wet braking (90% eg) ?
                          "          wet cornering (80% eg) ?
                                      tramlining     (90% eg) ?
is there any specific road condition,tyre pressure that you witnessed for tramlining ?