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[Rangie]

Ask yourself this, if I had gone and pulled it down for similar reasons, what would have happened to me?

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Surely this judgement gives all of us the right to pull anything down that we don't like or offends us, somehow I don't think that will be the case what a sad helpless country the UK has become churches to be pulled down next is it ? I personally don't like the design of Mosques they look totally out of place , might start demolishing one , wonder what actions that would provoke ?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Indeed and a learned influential person such as yourself should realise this will make things worse not better let sleeping dogs lay. I wonder what would happen if it was a WLM group that pulled down  a statue they didn’t like, this is the thin end of the wedge and I’m speaking up because I want to keep some of the history/ culture alive and well so as ordinary kids growing up know it.

  You flatter me!!

No, seriously, there is so much written account of the slave trade and the countries / people involved in it, with documented evidence, that this history can never be forgotten.  We do not need a statue of Hitler to remember the Holocaust, nor do we need a statue of a slave trader to remember that historical event.  Why have something in material form, that stands proud in a city that offends so many people, who found it completely obscene. In anycase, to again remind all that want to be reminded of the history, the statue is safe in a museum, in it's vandalised state which reflects it's new part in history

However, as I stated in my first post on this thread, it was removed in a "dubious" way which I do not support in itself.  But I understand the frustration of many in Bristol that for years have been protesting that this statue was now inappropriate given the need for racial harmony, which is far more important than an old statue of someone most people in the UK would never have known about and was only erected 174 years after Colston's death.  The law also made the mistake of targeting just four out of a crowd of hundreds all around the event, with another dozen or so actively involved in the toppling of the statue.

For me there is more about this world for us to worry about in Eastern Europe and Asia that IS relevant to our modern times.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Ask yourself this, if I had gone and pulled it down for similar reasons, what would have happened to me?

. 


Surely this judgement gives all of us the right to pull anything down that we don't like or offends us, somehow I don't think that will be the case what a sad helpless country the UK has become churches to be pulled down next is it ? I personally don't like the design of Mosques they look totally out of place , might start demolishing one , wonder what actions that would provoke ?

No it does not Rangie as you are one person who has no clear reason in law for taking such action.  This toppling was supported by hundreds on site, and thousands upon thousands across the country, after much protest, over years / decades, to Bristol City Council about it's continuing existence.  Elsewhere in the UK 70 plaques, memorials and statues connected to the slave trade were removed by democratic process by the councils concerned, but Bristol dug it's heals in.  I personally wish the full legal democratic process had taken place in Bristol as well to remove what was obscene to so many who live in the City, but yes mob rule took over as it has over centuries in this fair country of ours when the masses want change. For instance, The Chartists from 1838 to 1848 represented numerous political and social interests to get the government of the day to give the lower classes their rights, which after slow progress,  we now value today.  Those rights, not forgetting working conditions, the right to vote for men, the right to education, and especially women's emancipation amoungst others, were won after mass protests and so much mob rule.  That is how our society, and not forgetting for a minute the French society of 1789, has been changed.  Indeed, the Peterloo Massacre of 1819, with fifteen protesters in a crowd of 60,000 killed by British cavalry, led to further demands for political reform which eventually fed on to the Chartist movement.

I do not support mob rule, but if the powers of the day ignore populace democratic demands, this is what happens.  Change has always followed blood, sweat, toil, death and general protest, but at least we can do that, unlike those in China and Russia.

[Raeturbo]

No, what they done was against the law and the law should be upheld against the BLM movement as it is with everyone else, It’s giving momentum to a group who want their way no matter the cost, and stirring the racism pot imo.

[Doctor Gollum]

And straight to Hitler...

George Floyd died as a direct result of a drug overdose. They could have left him sat in HIS car and the outcome would have been the same.

As to Mark's question... What if it had been four black people or four kids bunking off from the local comprehensive?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

The original charge of criminal damage (of which they were guilty) turned into was Edward Colston an evil bastard (very likely)

So, in effect, Colston was put on trail 300 years after his death for being an evil bastard and found guilty.

It's politics. If the 'Colston 4' had been found guilty BLM would have taken to the streets.

[Doctor Gollum]

The original charge of criminal damage (and which they were guilty) turned into was Edward Colston an evil bastard (very likely)

So, in effect, Colston was put on trail 300 years after his death for being an evil bastard and found guilty.

It's politics. If the 'Colston 4' had been found guilty BLM would have taken to the streets.

To defend four white middle class oiks?

[LC0112G]

No, what they done was against the law and the law should be upheld against the BLM movement as it is with everyone else, It’s giving momentum to a group who want their way no matter the cost, and stirring the racism pot imo.

And yet a jury of "12 good men and true" decided that they were not guilty based on the evidence they heard. The verdict does not set any kind of legal precedent, so any future trial on similar grounds will just be judged on it's individual merits.

I've no real opinion on this - I wasn't in court to hear all the evidence, so am not in a position to come to an informed verdict. However, I do think it is a good thing that sometimes juries come to unexpected verdicts, and kick the establishment in the teeth occasionally. Parliament may make and pass the laws, but the public decide whether they're "broken" or not.   

[Raeturbo]

I agree with your sentiment regarding law and the public etc but I still think pandering to this sort of vandalism by select groups will cause far more trouble than it prevents

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I agree with your sentiment regarding law and the public etc but I still think pandering to this sort of vandalism by select groups will cause far more trouble than it prevents

Yep....As far as I am aware there has not been a huge demand from the people of Bristol to remove the statue. If there had been then by all means remove old Eddie.

It seems to me that a small minority of middle class wokesters have decided they know what is best for Bristol. These 'white saviours' love to attach themselves to BLM.

[Lizzie Zoom]

No, what they done was against the law and the law should be upheld against the BLM movement as it is with everyone else, It’s giving momentum to a group who want their way no matter the cost, and stirring the racism pot imo.

And yet a jury of "12 good men and true" decided that they were not guilty based on the evidence they heard. The verdict does not set any kind of legal precedent, so any future trial on similar grounds will just be judged on it's individual merits.

I've no real opinion on this - I wasn't in court to hear all the evidence, so am not in a position to come to an informed verdict. However, I do think it is a good thing that sometimes juries come to unexpected verdicts, and kick the establishment in the teeth occasionally. Parliament may make and pass the laws, but the public decide whether they're "broken" or not.

Indeed and exactly right.  A legal decision was made to find the four not guilty, and for us who respect the legal process that should be enough.  If a mistake was made legally, then let the lawyers establish that.   For us who were not part of that jury, we cannot possibly know how they arrived at their decision, right or wrong, but that is true of all court findings. 

All of us in this democratic society have the right to protest, but we have to understand that if we cross a legal line in the sand then we will be brought to book.  If the law establishes we have no case to answer, then that is that until proven otherwise by the legal system, not trial by social media.  When the democratic governed people of Great Britain feel any judgement is wrong, then due protest to MP's and onto the Government of the day is the necessary step to take.  If our Government can then be persuaded to change any part of, or all of a particular law,  then that should transpire. But all of us must be conscious of the fact that if a sizable majority of our society want change, but are ignored by the political establishment, then there will be repercussions that you and I may not want in a process often witnessed in the history of our nation.  Everyone must then listen to reason and fairly consider through democratic means a possible resolution.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I agree with your sentiment regarding law and the public etc but I still think pandering to this sort of vandalism by select groups will cause far more trouble than it prevents

Yep....As far as I am aware there has not been a huge demand from the people of Bristol to remove the statue. If there had been then by all means remove old Eddie.

It seems to me that a small minority of middle class wokesters have decided they know what is best for Bristol. These 'white saviours' love to attach themselves to BLM.

As someone who lived and worked around Bristol for 18 years, I can say there was an underlying desire by those so educated in what Colston represented to have the statue removed which grew louder and louder after the St. Paul's race riots of 1981.  If it had been a "small minority" of people who felt this way, then you would not have seen the hundreds of people in Bristol and thousands upon thousands across the country who bothered to support BLM and the toppling of statues.

[Sir Tigger KC]

The original charge of criminal damage (of which they were guilty) turned into was Edward Colston an evil bastard (very likely)

So, in effect, Colston was put on trail 300 years after his death for being an evil bastard and found guilty.

It's politics. If the 'Colston 4' had been found guilty BLM would have taken to the streets.

Was he though? 

It's very unlikely that he ever actually set foot on a slave ship and saw for himself the wretched conditions that the unfortunate people who were captured had to endure.  It's almost certain that he never took part in a slaving expedition into the West African interior and saw for himself the violence and suffering that was dished out by the slavers who were usually Africans themselves.

Attitudes in the 17th century were very different to today, slavery was generally condoned even amongst the great and the good, intellectuals and clergy, and I guess just a fact of life. It should be remembered that Colston's time predated the abolitionist movement by well over 100 years.

His philanthropy suggests a kinder gentler nature than the contemporary narrative would have it, and my guess is that Colston was so far removed from the realities of slavery that he regarded slaves as any other commodity that he traded like textiles, gold, silver, oils etc, and that would have been normal in the 1600's.

The modern equivalent of the Atlantic slave trader I reckon would be those evil bastards who entice young girls from poor countries like Moldova or Montenegro to Western Europe or North America with the promise of good jobs, but then force them into prostitution. I think that rather than judge characters like Edward Colston with our modern attitudes to their actions centuries ago, we should ask ourselves had Colston been alive today, would he be a people trafficker?

Somehow I doubt it. 

[Andy B]

maybe we should raze Liverpool city centre buildings to the ground  .... loads of references to the slave trade in Liverpool

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-stone-carving-of-two-slave-boys-carrying-money-bags-on-martins-bank-51432486.html

[Rangie]

I agree with your sentiment regarding law and the public etc but I still think pandering to this sort of vandalism by select groups will cause far more trouble than it prevents

. 

Agree completely, it is nothing but vandalism, bugger what happened years ago ,this is just a mob being  allowed to run riot and getting away scot free. As for the BLM shite George the druggie should not have resisted but he was another waste of space, the Cop should have got a medal not a prison sentence, he used a method of restraint that is taught in the US services when "fight or flight" kicks in you do what is necessary.