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[Sir Tigger KC]

So it's the big decision today on whether the government will allow Huawei to be involved in Britain's 5G network! 

Will they or won't they?       

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

They probably will, but they probably shouldn't.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Yes it seems a bit like buying a cheap car with known issues that you know could be costly, but just how costly you don't really know. 

I read that one of the reasons the US is piling on the pressure is that other countries have the same dilemma and are waiting to see what the UK does. 

[Varche]

It isn't a dilemma. Better phrase is hard choice.

How about a compromise. Just use the Huawei for the non important bits of the network and use the US spying capability stuff for the core. Plus a briefing to all spies to only use 4G in future. 5G is just for gamers

[STEMO]

The girl in our local Chinese chippy says it will be fine, and I've known her for years so she wouldn't lie. 

[STEMO]

Boris believed her too, he's letting huawei in, a little bit.

[STEMO]

I can just see it now:
Donald "You don't know what you're doing you fat, blonde prick"
Boris    "Pot, kettle, black"
 

[scimmy_man]

well they have gone for it, only 35%?

US guy wailing about 35% secure

[Lizzie Zoom]

So the tech guys can guarantee that a provider of a percentage of the 5G system can be stopped from gaining highly sensitive UK security information from the rest of the hardware on behalf of the Chinese State ?

I expect they cannot judging by all the high level hacking that has gone on in recent times! 

We TOTALLY rely on the USA for our security in terms of the military and intelligence, but our government has decided to make this decision!
Utter madness!!

Start learning mandarin!

[STEMO]

I can't understand how we're so far behind in the development of our own equipment. Sack someone, that should placate the media.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I can't understand how we're so far behind in the development of our own equipment. Sack someone, that should placate the media.

Yes, 12-18 months apparently

[aaronjb]

I can't understand how we're so far behind in the development of our own equipment. Sack someone, that should placate the media.

Yes, 12-18 months apparently

Now ask yourself where the chips will be sourced for anything "we" "produce" "in the UK".

It'll probably be China. Same as anything "Made in America" (OK, there are chip fab plants in the US but most networking gear - Broadcom, et al - comes from Mao's Candyland)

[STEMO]

I can't understand how we're so far behind in the development of our own equipment. Sack someone, that should placate the media.

Yes, 12-18 months apparently

Now ask yourself where the chips will be sourced for anything "we" "produce" "in the UK".

It'll probably be China. Same as anything "Made in America" (OK, there are chip fab plants in the US but most networking gear - Broadcom, et al - comes from Mao's Candyland)

Put loads of dosh into Graphcore, get them 'up and running'........maybe? 

[aaronjb]

I can't understand how we're so far behind in the development of our own equipment. Sack someone, that should placate the media.

Yes, 12-18 months apparently

Now ask yourself where the chips will be sourced for anything "we" "produce" "in the UK".

It'll probably be China. Same as anything "Made in America" (OK, there are chip fab plants in the US but most networking gear - Broadcom, et al - comes from Mao's Candyland)

Put loads of dosh into Graphcore, get them 'up and running'........maybe? 

I believe their chip-fab is in Taiwan... we do however, have chip fab in Glenrothes and Newport (Wales), amazingly enough.. they could pile some money into those 

They being you and me, of course, because it'll be coming out of our taxes 

[STEMO]

This 'spying' lark. Surely state backed hackers could, more or less, get into any system they chose to? I'm not very techie but, as far as I can see, the only really secure system would be like an intranet thingy, totally independent of the www.

[STEMO]

As for the expense of ripping out existing equipment, Boris should have told Donald that was the cost of compliance, and the US would have to pay.

[Raeturbo]

Bring back the pigeon and the baked bean cans and string, very secure!

[Doctor Gollum]

Bring back the pigeon and the baked bean cans and string, very secure!

Not really... Pigeons respond to food, and tapping into the string requires more string and another can

[Raeturbo]

That’s just smoke and mirrors

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

We will find out in the future, if the Chinese are giving trouble such as we feel the neeed to send a couple of ships to the south China sea.
If this coincides with all our interweb going down then we got it badly wrong.

[aaronjb]

This 'spying' lark. Surely state backed hackers could, more or less, get into any system they chose to? I'm not very techie but, as far as I can see, the only really secure system would be like an intranet thingy, totally independent of the www.

Yes, that. This is all smoke and mirrors (IMHO, as someone very much in that career).. for example the NSA recently "made Microsoft aware" of a "previously unknown" vulnerability (a huge one) - nobody with a brain thinks that they found it and then told Microsoft; they found it, used it, realised an enemy was using it and then told Microsoft, only to stop their adversaries using the same exploit.

Apart from that, the easiest way into any system is the soft fleshy things that sit at the keyboard...

[Viral_Jim]

Apart from that, the easiest way into any system is the soft fleshy things that sit at the keyboard...

This.

Why bother hacking when the judicious application of hookers/rent boys/drugs/money/violence will get you the same result far more easily. 

[Nick W]

Apart from that, the easiest way into any system is the soft fleshy things that sit at the keyboard...

This.

Why bother hacking when the judicious application of hookers/rent boys/drugs/money/violence will get you the same result far more easily. 

people's stupidity is more reliable than their vices. And it's free.

[aaronjb]

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I was speaking to the financial director of a global PLC, which has a business in China, about Huawei yesterday.
He told me that when his colleagues in China feel ok to speak candidly, they assure him that all our worst fears, and some more we haven't thought of yet, are fully justified.
They cant believe our Govt has allowed the company to become involved in any way, with out future communications.
Coming from such a highly intelligent, mild mannered, thoughtful man, I found it quite worrying.

[aaronjb]

How do you all feel about the CIA owning crypto technology? Because they've been able to eavesdrop on a great deal of encrypted communications for decades seeing as they secretly owned one of the largest cryptography providers

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I read about that yesterday. A very interesting story. I suppose, we accept it more readily from the Yanks because they are usually on our side (or supposed to be) when things get a bit difficult.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I read about that yesterday. A very interesting story. I suppose, we accept it more readily from the Yanks because they are usually on our side (or supposed to be) when things get a bit difficult.

And that is the major difference. The USA is a democratic (as best as it can be) country that we, and everyone else in the West totally relies on to provide military superiority over those that could do threaten our way of life.

I know who I would sooner have eavesdrop over me out of the choice of USA or China!

Biris is making a grave error of judgement by even considering this Chinese company to provide any of our communication system.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I think Boris Johnson Dominic Cummings has a cunning plan! 

The Govt was between a rock and a hard place on this one. Go with Huawei and anger the Yanks or ban Huawei and anger the Chinese. 

They've given Huawei the green light in the expectation that there will be a Tory rebellion and it won't get past Parliament and then Boris can turn to the Chinese govt and say " Hey sorry about that, but that's democracy for you!"

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

There may be a small rebellion but I cant see it being enough to overturn it.

[aaronjb]

Boris can turn to the Chinese govt and say " Hey sorry about that, but that's democracy for you!"

I can just imagine their response to that... "Let us tell you how you can fix that democracy problem permanently, comrade Boris!"

[Sir Tigger KC]

There may be a small rebellion but I cant see it being enough to overturn it.

They can make sure of that. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

How ?

[Doctor Gollum]

How ?

Well, the made the start of the Brexit process last an extra 9 months, so I wouldn't rule it out...

[Sir Tigger KC]

How ?

How?

They discreetly encourage enough Tory MP's to vote against that's how.

It's a bit far fetched I admit and would create a massive hoo haa when the plot was inevitably leaked to the Guardian! 

[biggriffin]

How ?

How?

They discreetly encourage enough Tory MP's to vote against that's how.

It's a bit far fetched I admit and would create a massive hoo haa when the plot was inevitably leaked to the Guardian! 

 Then Mr Bond is sent on a secret mission to find out who is really behind this dastardly plot,  and on the way bumps into a really pretty Chinese agent called wover Wong Time, and they both trace the plot back to Russia via Taiwan,  and end up shagging on a slow boat from Singapore.   That's the Hoof'land theroy.

[Doctor Gollum]

How ?

How?

They discreetly encourage enough Tory MP's to vote against that's how.

It's a bit far fetched I admit and would create a massive hoo haa when the plot was inevitably leaked to the Guardian! 

 Then Mr Bond is sent on a secret mission to find out who is really behind this dastardly plot,  and on the way bumps into a really pretty Chinese agent called wover Wong Time, and they both trace the plot back to Russia via Taiwan,  and end up catching bird flu on a slow boat from Singapore.   That's the Hoof'land theroy.

[biggriffin]

It might be a very clever plan, to allow the Chinese in, then see what they are doing, and watch and learn.
 Keep your friends close and your enimies closer.

[TheBoy]

I was speaking to the financial director of a global PLC, which has a business in China, about Huawei yesterday.
He told me that when his colleagues in China feel ok to speak candidly, they assure him that all our worst fears, and some more we haven't thought of yet, are fully justified.
They cant believe our Govt has allowed the company to become involved in any way, with out future communications.
Coming from such a highly intelligent, mild mannered, thoughtful man, I found it quite worrying.

Hauwei do have some of the best silicon for certain areas, like 5G.  Appalling bad software, and of course Chinese (where their laws dictate they have to act in any way they are told).  They also own many of the key patents in some areas.

TBH, as most of use hybrid fibre for our internet, there is a good chance that you are served by a Hauwei cabinet (other common option is the Israeli ECI).  There is a reasonable chance your ISP supplied router is either made by Hauwei, or uses Hauwei modem chips.


So its not always a black and white debate.

[aaronjb]

Exactly - everyone has their panties in a bunch that Huawei will be in the 5G infrastructure, conveniently ignoring that they're already in a position to see an awful lot of mobile & internet traffic anyway...

SSL everywhere will at least raise the bar to spying.

He says, looking at the http:// in the address bar right now 

[STEMO]

Surely any state actor that wants to know anything/everything about individuals such as us already does. There's a programme on BBC on Monday about Amazon and, apparently, they already know too.
With regards to 'state secrets' and comms with our allies, then it's up to our government to protect those from everyone and, if they can't, then letting huawei into the 5G network isn't going to make any difference, because the world and his mate would be in anyway.

If it came to another state wanting to do serious damage, as an act of war, I'm pretty sure they'd be able to knock out our power grid and, without that, nothing else would work anyway. We'd probably be able to do the same to them.

[Varche]

Switzerland, that bastion of neutrality, sold Crypto AG machines to 120 governments across the world fortens of years BUT both the US and German security services had a back door provided by Crypto!

Thank goodness China is also a neutral country.

[TheBoy]

He says, looking at the http:// in the address bar right now 

OOF does both, user choice

Obviously, Chrome are planning to wreck https early next year, making everyone go back to http. But then we know Google are self centred idiots.

[TheBoy]

Surely any state actor that wants to know anything/everything about individuals such as us already does. There's a programme on BBC on Monday about Amazon and, apparently, they already know too.
With regards to 'state secrets' and comms with our allies, then it's up to our government to protect those from everyone and, if they can't, then letting huawei into the 5G network isn't going to make any difference, because the world and his mate would be in anyway.

If it came to another state wanting to do serious damage, as an act of war, I'm pretty sure they'd be able to knock out our power grid and, without that, nothing else would work anyway. We'd probably be able to do the same to them.

Huawei are a private company. But Chinese law means if the Chinese state ask Hauwei to spy, or disable the UK's network due to a spat, they have to comply.

That's the issue.

OK, so not having your internet isn't a problem, but the country not having it is.  No phones. No emergency services. No trading. Shop shelves empty. No travel. The list goes on.