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[Hillper]

I don't think it's a wise idea to create a separate club.  Apart from what's already been said, it promotes an 'us and them' feeling.  
As Jaime said, this has been done before and with no tangible benefit.

The non members will feel less inclined to participate.

[Admin]

Just so everyone is in no doubt.....

Over my dead body will we become a "club"...  

We will make changes to this place (it will become a fully fledged site when I can sort out web design!) but the approach will always stay the same.

We created this place to be a friendly open source of information and assistance to all owners of Omegas.
It will always stay that way.

With regards to the maintenance guides.
If people want it, we can do them in .pdf format (adobe acrobat) to make them easier to download and print?

[Auto Addict]

Over my dead body will we become a "club"...  

Watch your back ..... we know where you live

Seriously though, I agree with you LB.

PDF format for Maintenance Guides sounds like a good idea

[Eddy Matthews]

Just so everyone is in no doubt.....

Over my dead body will we become a "club"...  

Oh well, since your one of the people who run the site, it seems further rational debate is now pretty pointless....

I find it sad that you don't even want to debate the pros and cons and listen to your members views  :-/

Eddy

[Marks DTM Calib]

I think a more pragmatic approach would be to approach another existing club who we would endorse in order to get the additional VBOA club benefits.

One of the big issues is that the VBOA are VERY prescriptive about requirements for membership, some of which are pretty out dated these days. In my opinion they are not so hot on other key things I feel are required in order to maintain the marque....i.e. special tools, spares, bulletins etc

Yet they insist on it being a memebership based closed shop....

I for one never say never though....

[Admin]

Hi Eddy.

We can see the pros and cons of being a "club" but the cons far outweigh the pros.
It is a subject that has been discussed at length before so I would say we did not make that decision without consultation.

A club brings no real benefits to us to be honest.

There is nothing being a club offers that we cannot do now (Trade club membership is neither quick nor easy by the way)

A magazine would merely be a compilation of what is already on the site so it would be expenditure for no tangible gain.
But if someone wants to compile it and make an e-magazine, then let us know and we will see what can be done.

As I said previously, we can convert the maintenance guides to .pdf files for downloading if that will help?

The costs of hosting this are completely covered and will be for some time to come (ie to the point where we require a dedicated server). We will also be hosting pictures on here soon. Hosting elsewhere was only ever going to be a tempory fix.

All this business with "member areas" is most definitely divisive. I was one of the admins at another site where they became a "club" and saw what happened. It is what made me go and set up this place!

The "them and us" approach, while never intentional, always occurs where you have an area people can only access after paying a membership fee. Sad, but true.

We set up this place to ensure any owner of an Omega/Catera could come along and get advice for free.
That ethos will never change.

[MaxV6]

Cue a Standing Ovation.


and I mean that sincerely.


Max

[TheBoy]

Just so everyone is in no doubt.....

Over my dead body will we become a "club"...  

Oh well, since your one of the people who run the site, it seems further rational debate is now pretty pointless....

I find it sad that you don't even want to debate the pros and cons and listen to your members views  :-/

Eddy

Just to make entirely clear, my following response is purely as a member here, and not as a representative of OOF


============================================================

Having been an active member of another forum that turned into a club, and ended up being an outcast there, I have a reluctance to see this place turned into a club for no real benefit.  In fact, any view/direction I have pushed towards for this place are mostly a consequence of my experience from that time.  Thats why the key thing here is any Omega owner should have free access to all the info we can provide here, and I hope we present a friendly enough face that anyone can post queries, including those who are not Internet/Computer savvy, and may not know about 'forums' etc.

I, personally, would never say never.  Also, I hope I come across as always welcoming debate on anything (legal).  My mind can usually always be changed with a suitable case (Sony aside ). I (remember this is personal comment) disagree with LB66's stance, but (currently) agree with his view.  He was a moderator at the other site, and undoubtedly saw more than I did as a member, and hence his strong views.

However, until I can see real benefits of a club over a free forum, and those benefits outweigh the problems associated, I would like to see this place stay as-is (which enhancements).

=============================================================

Putting back on my Admin hat, rest assured that the Admin team - myself, Laidback66, Marks_DTM_Calib, and Auto Addict - do discuss many such issues privately. Major decisions are not lightly taken.

Site funding is currently covered - current hosting situation is for another debate, which is anyone wants to start, I will happily engauge in.

[Eddy Matthews]

Thanks for the clarification guys - LB, no offence was intended, so I hope you took my comments in the spirit they were meant.

I can see what your saying, but a couple of things that sprang to mind that may be worth thinking about:

1. Why join the VBOA at all? I certainly cannot see anything that they offer other than lots of red tape!
2. I never meant that there should be private "members only" areas of the forum, leave it as it is for the benefit of everyone.
3. A members club would simply give you a newsletter/magazine each quarter, perhaps a badge, and would allow none internet users to take part - They still exist you know!  
4. Fees should be minimal - And would only be used to cover expenses for running the forum, magazine, and postage etc. The club fees would also allow those of us (yes me included) that appreciate your efforts, to show support.
5. Finally, Compiling the "How to" articles into PDF files is a great idea!! But again your limiting yourself to those Omega users who are online, and aren't communicating with the perhaps 80% of Omega users who don't have, or want, to use the internet.

Regards
Eddy

[TheBoy]

Thanks for the clarification guys - LB, no offence was intended, so I hope you took my comments in the spirit they were meant.

I can see what your saying, but a couple of things that sprang to mind that may be worth thinking about:

1. Why join the VBOA at all? I certainly cannot see anything that they offer other than lots of red tape!
2. I never meant that there should be private "members only" areas of the forum, leave it as it is for the benefit of everyone.
3. A members club would simply give you a newsletter/magazine each quarter, perhaps a badge, and would allow none internet users to take part - They still exist you know!  
4. Fees should be minimal - And would only be used to cover expenses for running the forum, magazine, and postage etc. The club fees would also allow those of us (yes me included) that appreciate your efforts, to show support.
5. Finally, Compiling the "How to" articles into PDF files is a great idea!! But again your limiting yourself to those Omega users who are online, and aren't communicating with the perhaps 80% of Omega users who don't have, or want, to use the internet.

Regards
Eddy

All fair points, though I (personally) remain unconvinced.  The nature of a community such as this one is it is interactive, something not really possible with expensive mags and newsletters etc.  How would they find us without internet connectivity etc.

Something like 90% of UK families have Internet access via home/work/school etc, though I would agree that some people have access but no desire/knowledge to use it...

Funding isn't currently an issue, so we do not need to raise cash at present.

Most Vauxhall forum sites only want to become clubs due to wishing to join VBOA in order to get tradeclub status.  This was what went horribly wrong with another site many of us were members of, and they still do not appear to have the TC status yet - a lot of pain, and as yet, no gain.

Additionally, making a club entails all those things I mentioned a few posts ago - AGMs, secretaries, treasurers, newsletters, mags, membership etc.  I certainly would struggle to find the time to cover my share of it, I suspect other Admins would also struggle.  Which would mean either standing down, or massively increasing the administrative staff (which leads to other issues).

As I said, I am a sceptic, but can be convinced...

And my comments are mine personally, not as OOF rep...

[Allenm]

5. Finally, Compiling the "How to" articles into PDF files is a great idea!! But again your limiting yourself to those Omega users who are online, and aren't communicating with the perhaps 80% of Omega users who don't have, or want, to use the internet.

Bit unclear how you go about reaching the omega owners who don't have internet access?  The type of club (like the old MG enthusiasts club) that are postal based require a hell of a lot of staff to manage, and a call centre to handle the interaction.

I guess its a nice thought, but with the way tax legislation is going, I kind of doubt that the omega will continue to be affordable as the daily drive of choice, regardless of the point that most of a car's carbon is generated at build, older cars with a high CO2 emmision are going to be stung more and more.  Sad, but true.

[Eddy Matthews]

I don't think reaching non internet users is that difficult... There are numerous car rallies around the country each year, so you can use them. Alternatively for a fee you can use the various car enthusiasts magazines or car sellers magazines/papers to advertise the club.

Phone contact isn't needed - A postal address would suffice. And of course you can also advertise the website further by including the web address at the same time.

Regards
Eddy

[Admin]

Ok guys...

Apologies for the strong nature of my response. I think I came across in the wrong way, but had just received some bad news.

TheBoy has covered many of the reasons why I do not want this place to become a club. Ultimately it is beareaucratic and inefficient.

As for the members we cannot access by internet?
The point of this site is to be an interactive support group. It would be pretty much unworkable to provide that serive by any other medium.

Magazines are good, but this is now the 21st Century and the internet is the future.... :-/

Oh and Eddy, no offence taken.

[Ken T]

I think OOF should be kept the way it is. As has been said, if we start with membership, newsletters, fees etc, some poor sod is going to have to do it all. As a licensed Radio Amateur, I belong to a local club and also RIG, a group concerned with weather satellites. They used to produce a splendid magazine, 20 colour pages, until it suddenly stopped. The reason was there was only a couple of people producing it at the end, and they couldn't cope. Not fair on them. They have resurfaced on the Net, www.rig.org.uk and have produced one magazine, but the next will be when they have the time. The internet based club has an advantage in that things are up to date, not current as of the last month's magazine. How many times have you read about a special offer, only to find out its gone. Also doing the guides in Adobe kind of makes them hard and fast, and hard to improve on. Suppose someone comes up with a new way of gettnig the hoses off in a breather clean-out. With the current system, all he/she has to do is post a couple of photos. If we are using PDF's someone has to approve the change, modify the PDF and tell everone about the new instructions. I also think that guides should be just that, a guide as to how someone has done it, which you can take in, digest and modify in the light of your own situation. The idea of running a club to help us get Trade Club cards, well its a lot of work to do. I managed to get trade prices beause I bought a lot of stuff at once, and you can always 'join' the other clubs to get one. The only advantage to a club might be funds to help the Admins run the system and buy new,( decent !) hard drives for storage. I like the idea of the club being 'information based' rather than paper based, as I said it can react to new info that much quicker.  I also think that the occasional meet is a good idea, always handy to know someone round the corner to borrow stuff off    I suppose size also matters. If we have about 1000 members, that's not bad for an internet based club, but if we start growing even faster, and providing spares, facilities etc, then the whole situation may have to change, but until we reach 10,000 members lets not worry !

[The Barge Captain]

Technically I still am a member of another Vx forum, however, I was never privy to the inner sanctum, so I don't know what that gained the special members.  Maybe somebody could give me an insight.  This forum is fantastic - no secret circle, all information shared, all equal.  Just the way it should be.  The Omega is our unity and the any move towards segregation of members will lose the community spirit this site stands for.
I vote for no change. The founder members of this forum belive that all knowledge is for the benifit of all, not just a select few, and therefore they have my backing 100%.
If we need funds at any point to keep this site going, then as discussed on previouse threads there are many of us who would be willing to contribute a small amount of what the common knowlege has saved us towards running costs. And from acorns etc. etc.

And a huge thankyou to the admins for all the effort and time they put in, unpaid to keeping us on the road.