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Author Topic: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike  (Read 6134 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #60 on: 19 January 2022, 15:00:12 »

If he survives, Boris should use his majority to change the law so that MP's cannot just change party and stay on as an MP. 

You honestly think Boris stands any chance of getting anything controversial through parliament at the moment?

The people of Bury South elected a Tory MP and Christian Wakeford should resign and stand for the Labour Party in the by election if he wants to be a Labour MP.

They didn't. They elected Christian Wakeford, for a 5 year term. If they want to change their minds, they'll get a chance in 2 years time. I'll quote Churchill....

Quote from: Churchill
The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

So, to paraphrase, Country first, Constituents second, Party third.

Yep, Churchill crossed the House and Party twice to follow his convictions :y :y
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STEMO

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #61 on: 19 January 2022, 15:01:15 »

If he survives, Boris should use his majority to change the law so that MP's cannot just change party and stay on as an MP. 

You honestly think Boris stands any chance of getting anything controversial through parliament at the moment?

The people of Bury South elected a Tory MP and Christian Wakeford should resign and stand for the Labour Party in the by election if he wants to be a Labour MP.

They didn't. They elected Christian Wakeford, for a 5 year term. If they want to change their minds, they'll get a chance in 2 years time. I'll quote Churchill....

Quote from: Churchill
The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

So, to paraphrase, Country first, Constituents second, Party third.

Yep, Churchill crossed the House and Party twice to follow his convictions :y :y
What was he convicted of?
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #62 on: 19 January 2022, 15:02:11 »

If he survives, Boris should use his majority to change the law so that MP's cannot just change party and stay on as an MP. 

You honestly think Boris stands any chance of getting anything controversial through parliament at the moment?

The people of Bury South elected a Tory MP and Christian Wakeford should resign and stand for the Labour Party in the by election if he wants to be a Labour MP.

They didn't. They elected Christian Wakeford, for a 5 year term. If they want to change their minds, they'll get a chance in 2 years time. I'll quote Churchill....

Quote from: Churchill
The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

So, to paraphrase, Country first, Constituents second, Party third.

Yep, Churchill crossed the House and Party twice to follow his convictions :y :y

Maybe he didn't have any convictions and just went where the wind blew him!  ;D
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #63 on: 19 January 2022, 15:04:10 »

If he survives, Boris should use his majority to change the law so that MP's cannot just change party and stay on as an MP. 

You honestly think Boris stands any chance of getting anything controversial through parliament at the moment?

The people of Bury South elected a Tory MP and Christian Wakeford should resign and stand for the Labour Party in the by election if he wants to be a Labour MP.

They didn't. They elected Christian Wakeford, for a 5 year term. If they want to change their minds, they'll get a chance in 2 years time. I'll quote Churchill....

Quote from: Churchill
The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

So, to paraphrase, Country first, Constituents second, Party third.

Yep, Churchill crossed the House and Party twice to follow his convictions :y :y
What was he convicted of?

Racism.  Postumously in the court of lefty opinion.  :-X
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #64 on: 19 January 2022, 15:04:49 »

If he survives, Boris should use his majority to change the law so that MP's cannot just change party and stay on as an MP. 

You honestly think Boris stands any chance of getting anything controversial through parliament at the moment?

The people of Bury South elected a Tory MP and Christian Wakeford should resign and stand for the Labour Party in the by election if he wants to be a Labour MP.

They didn't. They elected Christian Wakeford, for a 5 year term. If they want to change their minds, they'll get a chance in 2 years time. I'll quote Churchill....

Quote from: Churchill
The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."

So, to paraphrase, Country first, Constituents second, Party third.

Yep, Churchill crossed the House and Party twice to follow his convictions :y :y
What was he convicted of?

I am sure in the modern World of politics someone would try and convict him of something but no, we are speaking of the great man Churchill here who thank God held firm with his conviction to stand up to that man who'es name begins with H ;D ;D ;D :y
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STEMO

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #65 on: 19 January 2022, 15:06:57 »

Harold MacMillan?
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LC0112G

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #66 on: 19 January 2022, 15:10:01 »

So you think that if Christian Wakeford had stood as a Labour candidate he'd have got elected?  ???

It's possible seeing as he has a slim majority of 400 or so votes, but he has been a Tory councillor for years....

I voted for Chris Loder as my MP because he was the Tory candidate and he wouldn't have got my vote if he'd been the Labour, LibDem or Monster Raving Loony candidate.  :P

Be interesting at the next election if Labour allow him to stand as their candidate.  His defection is proving controversial with the Labour faithful!  ;)

I'm not going to try and second guess why the good people of Bury South voted for him (I'm assuming there are at least some good people in Bury South - might be wrong ::)).

What I am saying is that if they thought they were voting for the Party, or the Leader of that Party, then they're wrong. By that measure any MP that votes against their party whip
should face a by-election since they're voting against their party and/or leader?

This MP has put what he considers to be the needs of the country and/or his constituents above the will of his Party. If his constituents don't think that's correct, then they shouldn't have voted for him in the first place. Anyway, they'll get there say in 2 years time. I fully expect most of the red-wall seats that went blue in the last election to go red again next time.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #67 on: 19 January 2022, 15:10:28 »

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #68 on: 19 January 2022, 15:12:51 »

So you think that if Christian Wakeford had stood as a Labour candidate he'd have got elected?  ???

It's possible seeing as he has a slim majority of 400 or so votes, but he has been a Tory councillor for years....

I voted for Chris Loder as my MP because he was the Tory candidate and he wouldn't have got my vote if he'd been the Labour, LibDem or Monster Raving Loony candidate.  :P

Be interesting at the next election if Labour allow him to stand as their candidate.  His defection is proving controversial with the Labour faithful!  ;)

I'm not going to try and second guess why the good people of Bury South voted for him (I'm assuming there are at least some good people in Bury South - might be wrong ::)).

What I am saying is that if they thought they were voting for the Party, or the Leader of that Party, then they're wrong. By that measure any MP that votes against their party whip
should face a by-election since they're voting against their party and/or leader?

This MP has put what he considers to be the needs of the country and/or his constituents above the will of his Party. If his constituents don't think that's correct, then they shouldn't have voted for him in the first place. Anyway, they'll get there say in 2 years time. I fully expect most of the red-wall seats that went blue in the last election to go red again next time.


I regret to say that I think that is a correct assumption.  It may be a salvageable situation, but unless Boris goes, and goes now, that is what the result will be! 

Then it will be down to any new leader....................................................which could be the next challenge for sure!!
« Last Edit: 19 January 2022, 15:14:49 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #69 on: 19 January 2022, 15:21:54 »

So you think that if Christian Wakeford had stood as a Labour candidate he'd have got elected?  ???

It's possible seeing as he has a slim majority of 400 or so votes, but he has been a Tory councillor for years....

I voted for Chris Loder as my MP because he was the Tory candidate and he wouldn't have got my vote if he'd been the Labour, LibDem or Monster Raving Loony candidate.  :P

Be interesting at the next election if Labour allow him to stand as their candidate.  His defection is proving controversial with the Labour faithful!  ;)

I'm not going to try and second guess why the good people of Bury South voted for him (I'm assuming there are at least some good people in Bury South - might be wrong ::)).

What I am saying is that if they thought they were voting for the Party, or the Leader of that Party, then they're wrong. By that measure any MP that votes against their party whip
should face a by-election since they're voting against their party and/or leader?

This MP has put what he considers to be the needs of the country and/or his constituents above the will of his Party. If his constituents don't think that's correct, then they shouldn't have voted for him in the first place. Anyway, they'll get there say in 2 years time. I fully expect most of the red-wall seats that went blue in the last election to go red again next time.

No he hasn't. He's an opportunistic unprincipled A hole trying to save his job in two years time, thinking the same as you in your last sentence.   :-X   ::)

I hope he gets a good kicking from the good people of Bury South at the next election.  :)

If he gets selected as Labours candidate that is.....  ;D
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LC0112G

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #70 on: 19 January 2022, 15:23:29 »

I fully expect most of the red-wall seats that went blue in the last election to go red again next time.
I regret to say that I think that is a correct assumption.  It may be a salvageable situation, but unless Boris goes, and goes now, that is what the result will be! 

Then it will e done to any new leader....................................................which could be the next challenge for sure!!

I think it was inevitable regardless. Like it or not, the last election was all about one thing, and traditional Labour voters just held their noses and put a cross in the 'blue' box because they wanted Brexit, and all the unicorns and mermaids that Boris promised them on the back of it. What they didn't realise/appreciate was that doing so also gave the Tory party 5 years to run amok with other things they don't necessarily agree with.

Even if BoJo hadn't made such a catastrophic mess of the last 2 months PR, they were always going to switch back to putting a cross in the 'red' box next time once Brexit was 'done' - whatever that means.
« Last Edit: 19 January 2022, 15:27:38 by LC0112G »
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Nick W

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #71 on: 19 January 2022, 15:33:29 »


I think it was inevitable regardless. Like it or not, the last election was all about one thing, and traditional Labour voters just held their noses and put a cross in the 'blue' box because they wanted Brexit, and all the unicorns and mermaids that Boris promised them on the back of it. What they didn't realise/appreciate was that doing so also gave the Tory party 5 years to run amok with other things they don't necessarily agree with.



It's worked the other way too, I know a number of people who voted Labour instead of Conservative. One of them even said he couldn't believe how easy the Tories had made that decision.


Most dissatisfied voters tend to vote Lib Dem which gets their point across without actually changing the status quo.
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LC0112G

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #72 on: 19 January 2022, 15:40:08 »


This MP has put what he considers to be the needs of the country and/or his constituents above the will of his Party. If his constituents don't think that's correct, then they shouldn't have voted for him in the first place. Anyway, they'll get there say in 2 years time. I fully expect most of the red-wall seats that went blue in the last election to go red again next time.

No he hasn't. He's an opportunistic unprincipled A hole trying to save his job in two years time, thinking the same as you in your last sentence.   :-X   ::)

I hope he gets a good kicking from the good people of Bury South at the next election.  :)

If he gets selected as Labours candidate that is.....  ;D

If he stands at the next election (wearing whatever colour rosette), and is elected, then it means the good people of Bury South think he's still the best representative available to them. If he gets a good kicking, then they don't.

Either way, its not for people from other constituencies to decide who represents them, or for how long.

Same if Boris resigns. We don't automatically get another General election when a PM goes. The ruling party selects the next PM based on their constitution, though I shudder to think who that might be from the current shower of shite. The public has next to no say - until the next GE which in this case is scheduled for 2024.
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LC0112G

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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #73 on: 19 January 2022, 15:55:28 »


I think it was inevitable regardless. Like it or not, the last election was all about one thing, and traditional Labour voters just held their noses and put a cross in the 'blue' box because they wanted Brexit, and all the unicorns and mermaids that Boris promised them on the back of it. What they didn't realise/appreciate was that doing so also gave the Tory party 5 years to run amok with other things they don't necessarily agree with.


It's worked the other way too, I know a number of people who voted Labour instead of Conservative. One of them even said he couldn't believe how easy the Tories had made that decision.

Most dissatisfied voters tend to vote Lib Dem which gets their point across without actually changing the status quo.

I don't disagree, but feel it's easier to change your allegiances to vote for a single issue you 100% do want, rather than changing to vote for something you also don't want (Corbyn). Most seats are fought between 2 parties, so voting for the 3rd party is often just a protest/wasted vote.

Once the 'major issue' goes away then people will revert to historical voting patterns IMV.
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Re: Oh Boris, oh Boris.Third Strike
« Reply #74 on: 19 January 2022, 16:28:33 »

I fully expect most of the red-wall seats that went blue in the last election to go red again next time.
I regret to say that I think that is a correct assumption.  It may be a salvageable situation, but unless Boris goes, and goes now, that is what the result will be! 

Then it will e done to any new leader....................................................which could be the next challenge for sure!!

I think it was inevitable regardless. Like it or not, the last election was all about one thing, and traditional Labour voters just held their noses and put a cross in the 'blue' box because they wanted Brexit, and all the unicorns and mermaids that Boris promised them on the back of it. What they didn't realise/appreciate was that doing so also gave the Tory party 5 years to run amok with other things they don't necessarily agree with.

Even if BoJo hadn't made such a catastrophic mess of the last 2 months PR, they were always going to switch back to putting a cross in the 'red' box next time once Brexit was 'done' - whatever that means.

If they do they will be voting for a political party that has little interest in them ( not that the Tory party is any better)

Most working class people in the North have little time for BLM adoration, gender bending and vegan cooking. The working class are an embarrassment to the Labour party of 2022.


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