Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: gbh on 22 April 2020, 21:11:55
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I've been meaning to do the service the rear brakes and with the fine weather and this lockdown decided now was the time to give it my first ever go.It's been a challenge but I'm getting there slowly from struggling to get the discs off etc so could do with a little help and advice of course.First up the caliper bolts were held in with blue coloured threadlock I have some red here somewhere would that be suitable or only blue or nothing?The spring cross clip came off in 2 pieces and it's for the vented brakes if I can't get one could I nut and bolt it?Gm shoes are on it and they have worn about a third and appear to have bits of rust embedded in this surface clean and reuse or bin?Discs are rusted on the outside lip and there is a 1mm lip inside and out,clean this off or replace?Recommended Discs? Pads are likewise worn but still meaty but if I change discs then new pads too any recommended? Thanks in advance for any tips
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Fitting kit is VX only. You could rivet them if all else fails.
Replace the rest. Only use vented discs, any brand will suffice. Genuine pads are/were available on Ebay for about a tenner.
Replace the pads one at a time with the caliper bolted on, then swap the disc. Failure to follow this will almost certainly cause a piston to pop out... An unnecessary ballache.
Service the business end of the handbrake whilst you're at it :y
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Do you mean fit the disc then bolt on the caliper then install pads?
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Is that grease up by the handbrake handle end is there a guide on that do you know and if I can get to it which I think is unlikely as I don't have a pit
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Do you mean fit the disc then bolt on the caliper then install pads?
Nope.
Caliper, with old pads, on the old disc.
Pins/clip out.
Lever the outer pad against the disc until the piston is home.
Replace outer pad.
Lever inner pad against the disc until the piston is home.
Replace inner pad.
Unbolt caliper.
Remove disc.
Service hand brake.
Fit new disc.
Re bolt caliper to torque (never used threadlock personally).
Repeat on other side. :y
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Ah got ya! Shame I already removed the old discs so I hope I don't have a problem.Perhaps the guide needs to be updated with this information. Do you happen to know the torque or should I look elsewhere? Thanks
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60 lbft springs to mind ;)
Just lob them back on to change the pads.
The process I outlined is both to prevent the opposite piston from popping out (they won't come out square, which prevents you from simply pushing them back in) and you don't want to be levering against the shiny new discs ;)
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Thanks for the advice much appreciated
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Whenever I have removed rear brake pads and the caliper in order to change the rear discs (or just to remove them to clean out any brake dust from the handbrake shoes), I have never had any issue with piston movement whilst the pads are out.
Seems an unnecessary faff being honest. If there were any concerns about movement of the pistons whilst the caliper is unbolted and moved out of the way, you could just leave a piston speader in situ whilst fitting the new discs before refitting the caliper.
But personally I've never had a problem with the rear pistons moving whilst the rear pads have been out during my 16 years of Omega ownership.
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You misread my advice.
If you remove both pads prior to pushing the pistons back on any fixed caliper, you run the risk of pushing the opposing piston out.
Rear pad change on the Omega takes all of ten minutes for both calipers using nowt more than a flat bladed screwdriver and a pair of pliers ::)
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That is all the more reason to use a 'winder' piston spreader to push both pistons back simultaneously, rather than using a pry bar, screwdriver or in some cases a pair of wide jaw filter pliers. For the small cost of a spreader its not worth risking damage or problems using improvised methods which just retract one piston at a time.
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The pliers are simply to pull the old pad out.
More than one way to do the job... ;)
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Do you mean fit the disc then bolt on the caliper then install pads?
Nope.
Caliper, with old pads, on the old disc.
Pins/clip out.
Lever the outer pad against the disc until the piston is home.
Replace outer pad.
Lever inner pad against the disc until the piston is home.
Replace inner pad.
Unbolt caliper.
Remove disc.
Service hand brake.
Fit new disc.
Re bolt caliper to torque (never used threadlock personally).
Repeat on other side. :y
Nor do I. I appreciate on original assembly it is good practice. but it makes dissembly more difficult. I reuse the original bolts and copper ease the threads. :y
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Those bolts took some getting out with a hammer but the discs were on pretty well but penetrating fluid overnight and a good whack in the morning and they came off straight away.
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Now have to source discs and pads and repair the spring clip.Have seen a genuine set of pads for £59 with fitting kit but seems pricey too me
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Now have to source discs and pads and repair the spring clip.Have seen a genuine set of pads for £59 with fitting kit but seems pricey too me
that's what you will pay for just a VENTED fitting kit. If you can find one.
Solid kits are dirt cheap.
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Do you mean fit the disc then bolt on the caliper then install pads?
Nope.
Caliper, with old pads, on the old disc.
Pins/clip out.
Lever the outer pad against the disc until the piston is home.
Replace outer pad.
Lever inner pad against the disc until the piston is home.
Replace inner pad.
Unbolt caliper.
Remove disc.
Service hand brake.
Fit new disc.
Re bolt caliper to torque (never used threadlock personally).
Repeat on other side. :y
Nor do I. I appreciate on original assembly it is good practice. but it makes dissembly more difficult. I reuse the original bolts and copper ease the threads. :y
Which is utter madness.
The original threadlock is sufficient to rehold the bolts, using anything else (except more threadlock) is entirely counterproductive as the bolts could, in theory, come loose.
In reality, I have only had one caliper bolt come undone, and that was on my first car, a Mk2 Granada which used locking tabs on the caliper bolts and in my youthful inexperience I hadn't bent the tabs back after a disc change :-[
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Don't most new pad sets come with new bolts with thread lock on them.
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Now have to source discs and pads and repair the spring clip.Have seen a genuine set of pads for £59 with fitting kit but seems pricey too me
that's what you will pay for just a VENTED fitting kit. If you can find one.
Solid kits are dirt cheap.
The pads are same for vented and non-vented. That said, genuine GM rear pads include the pins and springs for sold disc calipers. Alas not for the vented discs. So that's probably what you saw.
The vented disc springs and pins haven't been available anywhere for years, including the USA. Even on a special order. All of the after-market versions, supposedly intended for vented discs, don't fit.
So your best bet is to post in the wanted section and see if some kindly member can let you have some usable used ones.
Or repair the springs with some short steel pop rivets. Clean off any corrosion and prime the spring first. Use one or two close fitting washers on each spring if necessary. Even if you have to buy a box of rivets it's still cheaper than the cost of new springs, if they were available. The pins can usually be cleaned up with a wire brush and reused.
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I managed to get a set of new old stock from somewhere off the internet for springs and pins about 3 years ago.
The pins had clearly seen some abuse, and when getting desperate, a mate with a lathe offered to make some up, from solid bar. Probably silver steel...
It's the springs that would be difficult to replicate without a press tool.
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I got a brand new set of pads complete with fitting kit from a member here about three years ago, for a reasonable price.
Couldn't believe my luck tbh.
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Any recommended discs and pads?
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Doesn't really matter tbh. You'll get two pad changes out of the discs regardless...
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Don't most new pad sets come with new bolts with thread lock on them.
Front pads do for the Omega (sometimes), but rear pads don't. Probably because the fronts are sliding calipers but the rears are fixed.
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Any recommended discs and pads?
The last set of discs and pads I fitted (to an Audi and a Hyundai) were made by Comline. Good price, very good quality and fitment. They are coated so can be fitted straight from the box with no decreasing, and it also avoids unsightly rusting of the hub which normally occurs within days of fitting. They bedded in quickly with a great bite and feel. Very impressed with them. One set I used their own pads which are also branded as Allied Nippon, the other I used a set of Don (that's a name from 'old') both with no complaints.
Some on here may look down their noses at them, but for value for money quality and fitment / performance, there is nothing not to like imo.
Others will have their preferences, but I am just giving my thoughts based on my experience of them.
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The vented disc springs and pins haven't been available anywhere for years, including the USA. Even on a special order.
The vented disc pins and springs have been available up until relatively recently - I bought several sets from a local VX dealer in 2017, and then in June last year, some more sets from another small Vauxhall dealer near to me. They weren't cheap relatively, but the parts chap did some digging around and located them. Some parts depts are willing to do more comprehensive searches, and I'm sure there are may be more lurking somewhere - maybe its just whether the parts chap can spare the time to search.
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Last set I bought for another forum car in 2014 was £45 for the pins and springs.
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Apart from Copper grease on the pads anything else I should grease up whilst it's all apart?
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Read the handbrake guide ;)
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I would be tempted to clean and very lightly lubricate the pivots of the handbrake operating levers / mechanism in the rear drum. Availability of hese is becoming less as well. They are in two parts and can tend to seize up, although any lubricant should be high temperature and used sparingly otherwise it will just attract brake dust over time. I'd also just grease the return springs and the hook ends of the levers outside the the rear drums.
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Thanks for referring me back to that as that's the guide I've been using is it Copper slip for everything when grease is referred too?
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Copper Slip on the metal backing of the pads in the area where the piston contacts, and on the contact edges to the caliper (no need to mad with it - just a smear), whilst high temperature grease on the other bits. Copper Slip is an antiseize, not a lubricant, where as high temp grease is a lubricant. There are PTFE and silicone lubricants which don't get 'sticky' and therefore don't attract dust or contaminants to the same degree.
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Ahh don't think I have any grease like that any recommended product I can get in?
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Just checked in the shed and I have some Castrol LM Grease which has a high melting point so I think that should do hopefully
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Good old Castrol LM - you don't see that around these days!!
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Still go very very sparingly with it on any 'internal' pivots as that is a traditional 'sticky' grease that will attract brake dust if used in excess!
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Helfrods sell various lubricants ;)
Clean and lubricate as per the guide, but don't get any on the shoe friction material. You never know when you might need the handbrake to stop you ;)
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Be prepared to replace the handbrake shoes on removing the discs. They're unlikely to be worn, but it's not unusual to find the linings are barely stuck to the shoes. Another £20.
Ensure everything that is supposed to move does so, and adjust everything correctly. That means starting with the shoes, and working back to the lever - just like any drum brake for the last 80ish years
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We have bucket loads of kluber (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1311.R2.TR2.TRC0.A0.H0.Xkluber.TRS0&_nkw=kluber+grease&_sacat=0) at work ..... ::) ::)
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We have bucket loads of kluber (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1311.R2.TR2.TRC0.A0.H0.Xkluber.TRS0&_nkw=kluber+grease&_sacat=0) at work ..... ::) ::)
foodsafe lube ::)
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We have bucket loads of kluber (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1311.R2.TR2.TRC0.A0.H0.Xkluber.TRS0&_nkw=kluber+grease&_sacat=0) at work ..... ::) ::)
foodsafe lube ::)
Mmm? Kind of ..... ::) ::)
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What a pig of a job this is fitting those shoe retaining springs back on! I simply can't get them on assume there must be a special tool because compress and lineup at the same time almost impossible HELP!!!!
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Hold them with small or long nose pliers .
push and turn ;)
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Place a suitable sized ring spanner (preferably cranked) over the cup washer, and whilst compressing the spring use a pair of long nosed pliers to turn the pin through 90 degrees.
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Hold them with small or long nose pliers .
push and turn ;)
This :y
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Hold them with small or long nose pliers .
push and turn ;)
Doing it this way, they preferably need to be long nose lock pliers unless you don't mind spending hours looking for the cup washer after it's pinged off in some direction probably never to be seen again.....
I find depressing the cup washer gently with a small ring spanner and twisting the pin through the centre of the spanner, rather that twisting the cup washer works for me, but everyone has their own preferences.....
The cup washer is less likely to get lost if something slips as the needle nose pliers are holding the pin through the cup washer and spanner, and the washer has nowhere to go if it slips.
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
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So I was going through the hub with pliers whilst trying to push spring back and locate it through hole almost impossible in itself but tomorrow is another day and we try again with possible new ideas including a sleeve to push through hub and a U shaped spanner off an angle grinder oh and a piece of angle iron with a hole in it.Why didn't they make it a lot easier I'd love to watch someone do it but all I can find is Yanks on Youtube and wrong cars.Bosch brake discs seem very reasonable any experience with them? And have been informed that Apec Kit 315 will fit with replacing pins and springs.Have also found uneven pad wear and one of the shims had moved inwards towards the hub almost touching
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Thanks AndyB for the tool although again not sure how it works it regards to the turn seems another blind job
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The Apec fitting kit categorically won't fit.
Spend your money if you like, and measure it against my post in FAQs.
That kit is for Vectra Bs with vented discs... Thinner than the Omega ones, so you run the serious risk of the spring jamming the brakes off.
Re the tool, if you don't understand how it works, you probably need it ;)
Also the spring puller in the associated purchase suggestions looks pretty handy too 8)
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Well thank you DG I got the information from an Omega owner of over 19 years so looks like he's been running a serious risk and I will inform him.
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The two biggest mistakes people make with Omega rear brakes are:
1. Cheaping out and fitting solid discs with vented calipers. As the pads wear, the pistons pop out causing total braking loss.
2. Bodging the fitting kit and using non vented anti rattle springs. Being 8 mm narrower, these will fit between the pad backing plates when new pads are fitted. This prevents the pads from making contact with the disc, effectively locking out the rear brakes and preventing both the ABS and TC from working properly.
Both have happened to people here.
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So I was going through the hub with pliers whilst trying to push spring back and locate it through hole almost impossible in itself but tomorrow is another day and we try again with possible new ideas including a sleeve to push through hub and a U shaped spanner off an angle grinder oh and a piece of angle iron with a hole in it. Why didn't they make it a lot easier I'd love to watch someone do it but all I can find is Yanks on Youtube and wrong cars. Bosch brake discs seem very reasonable any experience with them? And have been informed that Apec Kit 315 will fit with replacing pins and springs. Have also found uneven pad wear and one of the shims had moved inwards towards the hub almost touching
I concur, APEC KIT-315 has 74mm pins, according to APEC's own spec. You need 86mm pins. Likewise the cross springs aren't wide enough (at maybe 48mm?), you need a 56mm span. There are no aftermarket kits that are correct.
I'd be a bit alarmed about the wandering shim. Each of the factory pads and genuine GM replacements has a thin metal shim the same shape as the pad back-plate, including the pin slots. The retaining pins run through the slots in the shims. So the shim shouldn't have been able to migrate. Is the shim torn or was it incorrect assembly?
I don't have any special tool to install the cups on the handbrake shoe pins. Just a pointy nose pliers. Might be a three handed job though. Fingers at the inboard of the back-plate to hold the pins steady. Whilst the other two deal with the cup and spring.
I suggest you study the ribbed adjuster cog that sits between the top of the brake shoes. Make a note of which way the adjuster needs to turn to spread the shoes apart. Check both sides and write it down. And in particular study how the ribs interact with (foul) the spring underneath and how the adjuster can snap back when turning downwards. All making it difficult to be certain that you have successfully rotated the adjuster as desired, especially once the disk is on and you can't see. IE How it's easier and more positive to rotate the adjuster upwards then it is to do so rotating downwards.
Spread the shoes a bit and offer up the disc. If the disc goes on then take it off and adjust further until the disc won't go on. Then back off the adjuster 1/2 turn and offer up the disc. Install the securing screw, caliper and pads and then perform any desired adjustment on the shoe adjuster. Which should only be a click or two and not whole rotations. A head torch is useful.
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(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xnoa3eacdfjmhy/BRAKEshoeTOOL.jpg?dl=1)
It beggars belief that on the Opel assembly line operatives struggle as I still do to assemble the drum hand brake. I imagine boiler suited fraulein in hairnets, cigarettes in mouths, throwing drum handbrakes together as they chat to each other. They must have some special tool, some trick, that I lack.
I bought the tool above some years go, when running a 6 Senator high mileage fleet, but it was little help. That new tool might do it, it's cheap enough, but coming from China it will be some time arriving.
When I was young all vehicles had drum brakes, and they gave me no trouble. I imagined when I progressed from RWD Vauxhalls that I should not see a drum brake again, not so. I discover that some Astras and Vectras have them too.
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Firstly thank you all for your comments,when I bought the car about 3 years ago it had only done 49000 and had the oil cooler blown.It came with a pile of old receipts for garage work done and so the pads must have been fitted wrong as there is no damage to the shim but glad at least to have found it and now I can put it right hopefully.Looks like I'll have to lash out £59 for VX but one wonders what will happen in the not to distant future for all our cars if these pins etc become even more unavailable?
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In the factory, the handbrake gubbins is built up before the hub flange is fitted. Probably takes two minutes a side to throw together ;)
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gbh - to save you pulling your hair out ;D, I have a set of the correct used vented pins and springs that I can spare if you want to pm me.
They are rusted but with care will clean up sufficiently to be quite serviceable. The springs are the parts that normally disintegrate but the pins will usually clean up with a rotary wire brush.
But they are here if you need them.
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In the factory, the handbrake gubbins is built up before the hub flange is fitted. Probably takes two minutes a side to throw together ;)
Thanks, Doc, that explains that.
I guess the basic problem stems from the combined disc/drum arrangement. Other cars I have owned had self adjusting disc handbrakes, or big drums at the rear, incorporating both hydraulic and self adjusting mechanical operation. I have Astras of either variety.
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
Consider it a starter for ten... ::)
Trouble nowadays is people have zero imagination :-X
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
It's a tool to do the pins, spring and slotted cup washer .... as said I've never used one, let alone on an Omega, but I know they exist.
If the cup is too big, I'm sure that as DG is implying, you could always make it smaller with a grinder ;)
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
Why would you be doing this through the access hole ?? The shoes are removed/replaced with the drum OFF .. the hole in the drive shaft flange is pretty big and long nosed pliers fit in easily ... .. at least that's how I've always done it !!
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
It's a tool to do the pins, spring and slotted cup washer .... as said I've never used one, let alone on an Omega, but I know they exist.
If the cup is too big, I'm sure that as DG is implying, you could always make it smaller with a grinder ;)
Not quite the direction I was going in, but valid nevertheless ;)
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Well I found a solution to putting those damn springs/cups on ,firstly I found a 2BA nut spinner on a screwdriver just perfect fit for inside the cup leaving a small lip on the cup.Then I found a piece of wood drilled a hole same size as nut spinner end then cut the end out forming a U shape and used it as a wedge.Push nut spinner in push on cup having lined it up then apply wedge holds everything in position then you can remove nut spinner then with torch and lond nosed pliers turn pin and it was really quite successful,when located just push spinner in to remove tension on spring and withdrawal wedge simples!!!!
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Things were going very well and i offered up one of my old discs which I'd cleaned up the inside leading edge and it was tight,too tight in fact they are Delphi LS1381 and have more meat on them than the old GM ones so I'll double check it again tomorrow and if I can't get it free it up then I might have to reuse the old ones.Will see better I suppose when new discs arrive but it's fractions i suppose!! This pad retaining clip as the rivet has just gone on one but it generally looks solid enough and reason I couldn't nut and bolt it? Thank you Johnnydog for your offer which I may well take up but will try all avenues first
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
Why would you be doing this through the access hole ?? The shoes are removed/replaced with the drum OFF .. the hole in the drive shaft flange is pretty big and long nosed pliers fit in easily ... .. at least that's how I've always done it !!
Who said the drum was still on? Clearly it's been taken off. That leaves the hub flange in the way. As I recall the access hole in the hub flange is Ø12mm. So a Ø25mm tool just isn't going to fit through. Long pointy nose pliers will.
Anyway I see he's used a 2BA nut spinner to depress the spring. That will also easily fit through the hole. And is readily available.
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
Why would you be doing this through the access hole ?? The shoes are removed/replaced with the drum OFF .. the hole in the drive shaft flange is pretty big and long nosed pliers fit in easily ... .. at least that's how I've always done it !!
Who said the drum was still on? Clearly it's been taken off. That leaves the hub flange in the way. As I recall the access hole in the hub flange is Ø12mm. So a Ø25mm tool just isn't going to fit through. Long pointy nose pliers will.
Anyway I see he's used a 2BA nut spinner to depress the spring. That will also easily fit through the hole. And is readily available.
OK .. when you said "access hole" I thought you were refering to the hole in the drum that you use to adjust the brake ...... I wouldn't call the holes in the flange plate "access holes" ...... :)
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Things were going very well and i offered up one of my old discs which I'd cleaned up the inside leading edge and it was tight,too tight in fact they are Delphi LS1381 and have more meat on them than the old GM ones so I'll double check it again tomorrow and if I can't get it free it up then I might have to reuse the old ones.Will see better I suppose when new discs arrive but it's fractions i suppose!! This pad retaining clip as the rivet has just gone on one but it generally looks solid enough and reason I couldn't nut and bolt it? Thank you Johnnydog for your offer which I may well take up but will try all avenues first
None of this makes any sense ???
If the discs don't fit over the shoes, then you haven't done the job properly.
You adjust the shoes with the disc fitted. As per the guide.
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There is a tool for the job :y
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drum-Brake-Spring-Washer-Tool-Mechanics-Removal-Tool-Brake-Shoe-Retaining-Washer/202662616835?hash=item2f2fa21f03:g:kZ4AAOSwouxcwsCn
.... never used one though :-\
Aside from the slow boat from China, are you sure this tool is for this job? The drawing suggests the business end is 2.5cm in diameter, way too big to fit through the access hole in the hub.
Why would you be doing this through the access hole ?? The shoes are removed/replaced with the drum OFF .. the hole in the drive shaft flange is pretty big and long nosed pliers fit in easily ... .. at least that's how I've always done it !!
Who said the drum was still on? Clearly it's been taken off. That leaves the hub flange in the way. As I recall the access hole in the hub flange is Ø12mm. So a Ø25mm tool just isn't going to fit through. Long pointy nose pliers will.
Anyway I see he's used a 2BA nut spinner to depress the spring. That will also easily fit through the hole. And is readily available.
OK .. when you said "access hole" I thought you were refering to the hole in the drum that you use to adjust the brake ...... I wouldn't call the holes in the flange plate "access holes" ...... :)
12mm might be the threaded wheel bolt hole, which is what you adjust the handbrake through, the extra hole on the flange is significantly bigger, possibly not an inch, but certainly well over 12mm ;)
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@ Doctor Gollum.
The hole is not threaded. If i'ts not Ø12mm then it might be Ø14mm. But whatever it is it's nowhere near 25mm.
Things were going very well and i offered up one of my old discs which I'd cleaned up the inside leading edge and it was tight,too tight in fact they are Delphi LS1381 and have more meat on them than the old GM ones so I'll double check it again tomorrow and if I can't get it free it up then I might have to reuse the old ones.Will see better I suppose when new discs arrive but it's fractions i suppose!! This pad retaining clip as the rivet has just gone on one but it generally looks solid enough and reason I couldn't nut and bolt it? Thank you Johnnydog for your offer which I may well take up but will try all avenues first
Delphi LS1381 are the shoes? So I take you to mean that your old discs won't fit over the new shoes. So you need to back off the ribbed adjuster that sits between the two shoes at the top. Find the point where the disc just fits and then back off the adjusters a further half a turn. Make a note of which way you need to turn the adjuster to back-off. And don't assume that both sides are the same. Check!
A small nut and bolt is likely to come loose and fall off. I suggest you use a small short steel pop rivet. Put a close fitting washer on each side if needed.
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Things were going very well and i offered up one of my old discs which I'd cleaned up the inside leading edge and it was tight,too tight in fact they are Delphi LS1381 and have more meat on them than the old GM ones so I'll double check it again tomorrow and if I can't get it free it up then I might have to reuse the old ones.Will see better I suppose when new discs arrive but it's fractions i suppose!! This pad retaining clip as the rivet has just gone on one but it generally looks solid enough and reason I couldn't nut and bolt it? Thank you Johnnydog for your offer which I may well take up but will try all avenues first
Delphi LS1381 are the shoes? So I take you to mean that your old discs won't fit over the new shoes. So you need to back off the ribbed adjuster that sits between the two shoes at the top. Find the point where the disc just fits and then back off the adjusters a further half a turn. Make a note of which way you need to turn the adjuster to back-off. And don't assume that both sides are the same. Check!
A small nut and bolt is likely to come loose, fall off and jam in the disc vents or calliper. I suggest you use a welder.
Fixed.
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They're intended to be flexible anti-rattle springs as opposed to a rigid structure. Hence I'm not so sure about welding as a repair. You risk the metal losing it's springyness leading to fracturing beside the weld. That's probably why they were riveted in the first place.
Assuming the corrosion is not too bad, I'd prefer to drill out to sound metal and then use a new steel rivet, add washers to get more clamping area if needs be. Aluminium rivets might suffer rapid corrosion.
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How about stainless steel pop rivets 2.4mm seems about the smallest i can see?
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Isn't there a helpful guide.
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90580.0
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From my experience, unless the handbrake shoes have come unbonded, or the linings are showing signs of cracking, I would never replace the shoes. They don't do a lot of work, and if you replace them with new, invariably the handbrake is relatively poor for sometime until the contact area of the new shoes 'beds in' to the contact face of disc as they only come into contact when the handbrake is applied, not like the pads of the primary brakes. This is compounded when new discs and handbrake shoes are fitted at the same time. The linings on the handbrake shoes aren't particularly thick, and sometimes the mistaken perception is that they are worn more than they actually are.
Of course a few trips up the road with the handbrake gently applied can accelerate the bedding in process, but the operation and contact of the shoes to the inboard face of the disc whilst moving doesn't prolong the life of the handbrake linings, and it can lead to bonded linings coming adrift. Rivited linings don't suffer this issue to the same degree.
A bit like the MOT tester yanking the handbrake on, rather than a very gentle application. I have had cars with similar handbrake set ups loose the lining because of this, which can then result in the rear disc locking up when the loose lining jams inside the disc.
So unless they are totally shot at, personally, I wouldn't change the handbrake shoes.
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From my experience, unless the handbrake shoes have come unbonded, or the linings are showing signs of cracking, I would never replace the shoes. They don't do a lot of work, and if you replace them with new, invariably the handbrake is relatively poor for sometime until the contact area of the new shoes 'beds in' to the contact face of disc as they only come into contact when the handbrake is applied, not like the pads of the primary brakes. This is compounded when new discs and handbrake shoes are fitted at the same time. The linings on the handbrake shoes aren't particularly thick, and sometimes the mistaken perception is that they are worn more than they actually are.
Of course a few trips up the road with the handbrake gently applied can accelerate the bedding in process, but the operation and contact of the shoes to the inboard face of the disc whilst moving doesn't prolong the life of the handbrake linings, and it can lead to bonded linings coming adrift. Rivited linings don't suffer this issue to the same degree.
A bit like the MOT tester yanking the handbrake on, rather than a very gentle application. I have had cars with similar handbrake set ups loose the lining because of this, which can then result in the rear disc locking up when the loose lining jams inside the disc.
So unless they are totally shot at, personally, I wouldn't change the handbrake shoes.
Great post :)
I rough up brake linings (to remove the glaze) with course emery and wash with brake clean a couple of times
also de-lip the inside of the drum ,clean /de-glaze the wear surface of the drum
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How about stainless steel pop rivets 2.4mm seems about the smallest i can see?
Hard to know as it depends on the cleaned-up size of the holes in the crosspieces. You also need a rivet that will clamp up on the thin metal. Pop rivets have a min and max clamping range. You need to clamp down to something like 1.5mm, although you could use a washer on the end of the rivet to increase the min thickness. Looking at an old spring it looks to me that the original rivet flange was Ø4mm so that would indicate a rivet around Ø2.6mm . But you could drill the holes and use something with a slightly bigger diameter. Especially if the holes are corroded. More important that the rivet is a snug fit in the holes.
The original rivets might have been brass bodied (not copper)? So perhaps use brass if available, I imagine stainless steel would also work. Aluminium or copper would rapidly corrode.
Put the rivet in with the head on the disc side so any protruding bit is on the outside of the cross.
Also I'm not claiming to have successfully repaired the springs. I'm just saying how I would seek to do it if there was no other option.
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
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The original rivet is brass as I've just drilled it out and the hole is solid enough just the poor quality rivet that gave way.I didn't think aluminium corroded but steel sure does but stronger of course.I felt to knackered today to continue so hopefully tomorrow now i'm going to check the old receipts I have out of curiosity as the shoes fitted are GM couldn't see any markings on the disc.Pads both sides uneven wear which is interesting but as I pop away and leave the car parked up and it was parked up when I bought it the rears to seem seem to seize up so this strip down when finished can only be for the good and experience gained
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
they live inside/behind the rear wheels :y ;D
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
A side effect of being mechanically competent ;)
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
they live inside/behind the rear wheels :y ;D
;D ;D But they never wear out even if you actually use the handbrake .... which I rarely did ;) ;)
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
A side effect of being mechanically competent ;)
That'll be it :y :y
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
they live inside/behind the rear wheels :y ;D
;D ;D But they never wear out even if you actually use the handbrake .... which I rarely did ;) ;)
I use mine every MOT ::)
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6 pages on something I never even saw in 20 odd years of Senator & Omega ownership! ::) ::) ;D ;D
they live inside/behind the rear wheels :y ;D
;D ;D But they never wear out even if you actually use the handbrake .... which I rarely did ;) ;)
I use mine every MOT ::)
;D ;D ;D
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Handbrake shoes only get wear during the MOT test. At that time they also undergo the biggest annual lever heave, which can pull the wheel end outer cable through the curl of metal on the trailing arm, causing an MOT failure. The cure is to insert a plain washer on the cable end.
I suppose it is a curl, not a solid bracket, to facilitate factory assembly; just one more joy we have buying 10 year old cars.
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Handbrake shoes only get wear during the MOT test. At that time they also undergo the biggest annual lever heave, which can pull the wheel end outer cable through the curl of metal on the trailing arm, causing an MOT failure. The cure is to insert a plain washer on the cable end.
I suppose it is a curl, not a solid bracket, to facilitate factory assembly; just one more joy we have buying 20 year old cars.
Fixed ;)
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Thank you everyone for your comments I still haven't finished but parts are ordered and put the old shoes back on quite quickly and the old discs went on easy so the Delphi must be wrong in some way.Also had a reply back from my local Vauxhall dealers and they are ordering some springs from Germany so i'll report if successful.Borg&Beck reckon their pins and springs will fit but probably not like the others
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Thank you everyone for your comments I still haven't finished but parts are ordered and put the old shoes back on quite quickly and the old discs went on easy so the Delphi must be wrong in some way.Also had a reply back from my local Vauxhall dealers and they are ordering some springs from Germany so i'll report if successful.Borg&Beck reckon their pins and springs will fit but probably not like the others
Lucky you. I have abandonned all hope of getting Vx dealer parts during the lockdown.
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The pins are GM #9195055 and the cross springs are #9195056. Are they the parts your dealer has ordered?
The Borg and Beck versions won't fit. Too short. None of the aftermarket parts fit.
Delphi LS1381 should be the correct shoes. So they should fit but you probably need to back off the adjuster so that the disc can go on. Or something else is wrong.
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Yes that's the parts I ordered say they should be 5-10 days so we'll see as for the Delphi part it is more meaty and was a very tight fit on one side may try again when the new Bosch discs arrive
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Maybe the handbrake cable has been adjusted too much in the past ?
handbrake adjustment is done at the hub but many garages/DIYers just tighten the cable :'(
with the adjusters wound in,shoes centralised,
put the disk over,remove and adjust till you can no longer get the disk on,
adjust back slightly ,refit disk ,work the handbrake a few times to centralise again,
adjust through the hole till it binds,wind back till it runs free
then adjust the handbrake cable to a sensible number of clicks
i think TIS says 7 clicks ,I set mine at 3 ;D
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Yes that's the parts I ordered say they should be 5-10 days so we'll see as for the Delphi part it is more meaty and was a very tight fit on one side may try again when the new Bosch discs arrive
Member johnnydog offered you a set of used but servicable. pins and springs. You'd likely be quicker taking him up on the offer.
New discs should be even tighter on the shoes. Are you sure you've backed off the adjuster between the shoes, at the top? It's easy to turn in the wrong direction which spreads the shoes apart.
Anyway if your old shoes are undamaged with a least some remaining thickness then just clean them up and put them back on.
gbh - to save you pulling your hair out ;D, I have a set of the correct used vented pins and springs that I can spare if you want to pm me.
They are rusted but with care will clean up sufficiently to be quite serviceable. The springs are the parts that normally disintegrate but the pins will usually clean up with a rotary wire brush.
But they are here if you need them.
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It's actually quite easy to fit the shoes on the piss.
If the adjuster is wound home and the cable moves freely, then you need to reposition the shoes. This simply involves pushing them to where they belong, (helps if you put a wipe of copper slip where they contact the backing plates), then the disc should pop on and spin freely.
With practice you can set the adjustment almost spot on before, leaving just a final tweak once the disc is bolted to the hub. Takes a couple of go's pulling and refitting the disc, but it's one of those jobs... Fiddly yet satisfying.
Also bear in mind that the disc retaining screw needs to be fitted for the disc to spin freely :y
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Learning all the time from these useful tips
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With practice you can set the adjustment almost spot on before, leaving just a final tweak once the disc is bolted to the hub. Takes a couple of go's pulling and refitting the disc, but it's one of those jobs... Fiddly yet satisfying.
If refitting the old disc, a few minutes spent removing the lip that inevitably has developed on the outer edge of the handbrake shoes contact area saves a lot of time in the adjusting, and the 'on / off' of the disc before the final fitment /adjustment.
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I don't personally bother removing the rear disc unless there's a specific handbrake problem or I am replacing the disc ;)
Brakes are May's big job on the Barge. Handbrake service plus new discs, pads and fittings. Plus a suspension survey whilst it's up in the air with the wheels off...
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Well I can report that the spring retaining clips have arrived and very quickly too via Vauxhall dealers so that's one less problem and not too bad at £7 each
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Reason I decided to strip it all down was that when I was having the wheels aligned poorly they told me they could see a foreign object by the hub which turned out to be a shim.Also the back wheels were seizing if left for a while and a good opportunity to check it all out.Having failed the MOT on front brake discs and being in December and going into hospital got the garage to sort it,now seemed the time!!!
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Well I can report that the spring retaining clips have arrived and very quickly too via Vauxhall dealers so that's one less problem and not too bad at £7 each
Before you fit it, check against this...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127928.msg1942220#new
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Well I can report that the spring retaining clips have arrived and very quickly too via Vauxhall dealers so that's one less problem and not too bad at £7 each
Before you fit it, check against this...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127928.msg1942220#new
Might be wrong but in that thread there used to be a useful photo of the vented parts laid out on a sheet of graph paper. The photo seems to have gone AWOL.
Just in case.
GM #9195055 are the pad retaining pins for vented discs and are 86mm long. Pins for solid discs are 73.5mm.
GM #9195056 are the anti-rattle cross springs for vented discs and are 56mm across the horizontal span. Solid disc cross springs are 48mm across the horizontal span. And that's because although the pads are the same the vented disc is 20mm thick vs 12mm for the solid.
Also the vented disc calipers have Ø42mm pistons vs solid at Ø40mm. So they're not identical.
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Still shows here ;) pic is forum hosted aiui :y
Certainly I doubt I still have the original...
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That's funny. It was definitely missing earlier. But now it's appeared back.
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(https://postimg.cc/gallery/g3wVdLr)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/jdDwn4F7/IMG-1650.jpg)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/mrBgjY8V/IMG-1651.jpg)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/xd5T4XZQ/IMG-1652.jpg)
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Packet is correct :y
In your second picture, are they a pair because the one on the left looks to be 5mm narrower :-\
It's riveted differently too...
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I was just showing a comparison of the two and the riveting which seems less sturdy on the vented ones but Thanks for pointing it out
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:y
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(https://i.postimg.cc/wx4YMSZ9/omega.jpg)
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And also noted Made in the UK!!!!!