Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[STEMO]

I should add that, if we have to retain ties with Europe, and I believe we have to if we are to prosper, that the one thing I desperately want to end is the UK having to adhere to the judgments issued by the ECJ. We are part of Europe but not Europeans. We see things very differently and we should be able to set our own laws, with our Supreme Court as the final, and highest, court in this land.

[Sir Tigger KC]

What on earth has "imperialism " got to do with seeking to cut ties with the eu and be sovereign again .
We want to have control of our own country again not invade the sub continent.

Exactly. 

The only people that I have heard talking about the Empire and Imperialism in the BREXIT context, are snidey remainder folk.     I have never heard anyone who supports our withdrawal from the EU utter a word about our imperial past. 

[Viral_Jim]

Through all of these heated discussions, I do hope that the people of Europe don't get the impression that we hate/dislike them, although I'm pretty sure that's the message we are sending. Personally, I like the different languages and cultures that make up Europe. From the various cuisines and languages, to the oddities and customs.
It's the EU as an organisation I can't stand. Their self-centred, self-opinionated, self-importance is only the soft shell of a very dangerous group of fanatics. The common market, as it was called, was actually a very good idea. But, over the years, layer upon layer of restrictive practices have been added, that were, almost by stealth, turned into laws that bound every country, every citizen, into the following the will of a few unelected bureaucrats who seek to build a legacy for themselves.
I would gleefully shoot Junker, Tusk and company, and I mean that.

The Europeans I've spoken to about it, through my old job (Dutch, Swedish, German, Swiss and Italians - it was understandably a common topic of conversation) don't see it as any kind of reflection of our views on them. They all to a greater or lesser degree shared many of the frustrations with the EU that drove the leave vote.

However their view, almost exclusively was that it's an incredibly self-harming way to express and resolve those frustrations. That said, you can't really deduce much from a small sample size of exclusively middle aged, middle class people.

I did find talking to the Swiss guys particularly interesting, as an "impartial" third party to the whole thing.

[Doctor Gollum]

If you had any experience of the place you wouldn't say that. Besides she said recently of the possibility of a border down the Irish sea "I could never allow that to happen, and nor could any British prime minister". A few weeks later, she has done it.
Varadkar has played her like a cheap fiddle. She is the worst waste of skin I have ever seen in a British politician, and that's saying something.
When B. Liar appeased the IRA, he gave them everything they wanted apart from the one thing they really wanted. Even he knew he couldn't get away with that.This moron of a PM has just given them half of it, and made it much easier to get all of it.
When she loses the vote on Tuesday the Tories need to jettison her by lunchtime Wednesday. If they don't, they don't deserve to carry on as a Govt.

As long as whatever happens is decisive...

Not holding my breath though... party politics needs to be put on a back burner until this is done and dusted, (actually this should have happened the day after the referendum). It's about time our elected representatives step up to the plate...

[Doctor Gollum]

The Swiss are about as impartial as a hall of mirrors at the fair

[Sir Tigger KC]

On holiday in Thailand a couple of years ago I was in a bar chatting to some people, Australians iirc, and there were some German blokes stood drinking at the bar.  I noticed that they kept looking over at me and thought "Uh Oh"... 

Anyway the others left and I was finishing my beer and was about to leave when one of the German guys came over and the conversation went something like this.

German: Are you English?
Sir Tig: Er... yes..  I am.
German:  Zen I vould like to shake you by ze hand!  You are very clever people you British!
Sir Tig: Er Thanks  Why do you think that?
German: Ze European Union is destroying Europe and you British are doing ze right thing.  Zay vill make it very difficult for you, but you must see zis thing through.  If you do not ve are all lost!

With that he about turned, went back to his mates and as I bemusedly got up to go they all raised their glasses to me. "Prost!" 

The establishment and re-mainstream media would have us believe that the EU is universally popular on the continent.  It's not. 

PS: Apologies to Rolf and any other Deutschlanders for the bad accent, just trying to set the scene! 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

There are anti EU movements in all thw other 27 member states, and most of them are growing. 
We are the first domino to fall. 

[Varche]

Through all of these heated discussions, I do hope that the people of Europe don't get the impression that we hate/dislike them, although I'm pretty sure that's the message we are sending. Personally, I like the different languages and cultures that make up Europe. From the various cuisines and languages, to the oddities and customs.
It's the EU as an organisation I can't stand. Their self-centred, self-opinionated, self-importance is only the soft shell of a very dangerous group of fanatics. The common market, as it was called, was actually a very good idea. But, over the years, layer upon layer of restrictive practices have been added, that were, almost by stealth, turned into laws that bound every country, every citizen, into the following the will of a few unelected bureaucrats who seek to build a legacy for themselves.
I would gleefully shoot Junker, Tusk and company, and I mean that.

The Europeans I've spoken to about it, through my old job (Dutch, Swedish, German, Swiss and Italians - it was understandably a common topic of conversation) don't see it as any kind of reflection of our views on them. They all to a greater or lesser degree shared many of the frustrations with the EU that drove the leave vote.

However their view, almost exclusively was that it's an incredibly self-harming way to express and resolve those frustrations. That said, you can't really deduce much from a small sample size of exclusively middle aged, middle class people.

I did find talking to the Swiss guys particularly interesting, as an "impartial" third party to the whole thing.

Well I talk to working class Spaniards, many are well to do having done very well out of EU farming grants. Some are paper millionaires with the land/olive tree equity. They are all for the main part bemused by Britain wanting to leave the EU. You cannot blame them as apart from some blatant inflation when the peseta was dumped for the euro, they have all done well here. When I say wait till Spain is a big contributor rather than a recipient, they just shrug. Some accept there are things wrong with the EU but dont care. Why should they.
Almost all find it amusing that Britain cannot organise leaving. I havent the heart to tell them that those organising the leaving are remainers .

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

And the leader of the party opposing the remainers who are organising leaving is a lifelong leaver who is pretending to be a remainer.
You couldn't make it up. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Walking away with a border down the Irish Sea is no worse than pardoning the IRA.

You clearly do not understand how bad the backstop is to say things like that. 

I haven't read the 535 pages of the Withdrawal Agreement and I'm sure that there is much that is good, but I still cannot believe that she has agreed to this, especially when everybody is agreed that a hard border across Ireland is not necessary. 

To agree to a legally binding international treaty, where there is no right of exit without the other parties agreement is just criminally stupid and I can't think any other free democratic country on the planet that would do it.  We didn't need the release of the legal advice to understand the backstop for what it is. A trap.   

Because as sure as night follows day, the EU will make heavy demands on us in the FTA talks to come.  They will demand full access to our fishing grounds, the level playing field which will mean full adherence to the EU rulebook, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar with Spain, free movement, contributions to the EU budget, and the whole treaty to be adjudicated by the ECJ. And that's just for starters. 

They will demand control of the sequencing of the 'negotiations' and will not allow talks on the next stage to commence until satisfactory progress has been made on the current stage (Sound familiar?). In the background the clock will be ticking, the Cul de Sac of the backstop will be ever present and our EU jailers will ruthlessly drive us up it, jingling the keys whilst whistling God Save The Queen! 

In short the whole thing is designed to fail, as Theresa May has ensured that whoever is put into bat for Britain cannot walk away.   

So whatever the good bits of the Withdrawal Treaty are eg ensuring citizens rights are protected etc, the bad bit of the backstop is so bad that the whole deal must be abandoned if that bit cannot be scrapped, as it guarantees that the next deal will be even worse. 

Geddit? 

[Olympia5776]

Ah opps, if Davis had had The Dambusters tune as a ringtone we wouldn't be in this shit .....

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Before Varadkar was elected talks were well underway between the uk, EU and Irish Govts. to have a Canada plus type deal, with technology used to police a soft border in Ireland.
As soon as Varadkar was elected he pulled out of these talks and steered the whole thing towards this backstop nonsense we now have.
As I said earlier, it is in breach of their precious Belfast agreement and surely its only a matter of time before some Brexiteer does a Gina Miller and goes to the supreme court over it.

[Olympia5776]

And the leader of the party opposing the remainers who are organising leaving is a lifelong leaver who is pretending to be a remainer.
You couldn't make it up. 

Jaysus Albs , I had to write that down and work it out with pencil lines.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

  Sorry Don.

One thing that I have found some small encouragement from in the last week or so is, that I have met several diehard remainers who told me that if there is a second vote, they will vote to leave because they will be incensed at the decision to cancel the biggest vote in the history of the country.

[Varche]

Before Varadkar was elected talks were well underway between the uk, EU and Irish Govts. to have a Canada plus type deal, with technology used to police a soft border in Ireland.
As soon as Varadkar was elected he pulled out of these talks and steered the whole thing towards this backstop nonsense we now have.
As I said earlier, it is in breach of their precious Belfast agreement and surely its only a matter of time before some Brexiteer does a Gina Miller and goes to the supreme court over it.

are there any?

Sir Tigger for PM