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[Viral_Jim]

The key question is surely do you want your own democracy or do you want someone else in Brussels to do it for you?

This is a great point, and I suspect cuts to the heart of the issue for most people - everyone exists somewhere on a spectrum between Nationalist Xenophobe and United States of Euro-phile. Personally I don't dislike the balance we have now, I don't like the idea of the benefits tourism to the UK, however studies have shown that on balance immigrants from the EU contribute more than they take out (in contrast to immigrants from outside the EU, who do not). So ironically, reducing the number of immigrants as a result of suspending free movement of people from europe could end up costing us money.

Yes, there will always be an element of scroungers, but I don't hold those born in the UK in any higher regard than those from Europe, just because they're home grown. And before anyone bothers to comment, I am not saying that anyone in receipt of benefits is a scrounger.

I find it peculiar that we are a union of 4 countries, built from a number of little kingdoms before that, yet we get all exercised about ceding a portion of our legislative control to the EU. Surely the logical conclusion to that argument is the complete devolution of the United Kingdom and building a wall along the banks of the Tamar?  I'm currently working in Poland and seeing the advancement that the EU has brought to this country after the mess the Russians left behind, I genuinely could not begrudge it my tax pounds. In comparison to some of the BS we find money for in the UK (benefits payments to millionaires, Homeopathing hospitals (x4) etc etc), I think the EU represents a worthwhile investment in our future.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

The fact that we have enjoyed relative prosperity over most of the last 30 years has nothing to do with the EU. It is due to the fact that pre Thatcher the country had been wrecked by militant unions and their puppets in Westminster.
Thatcherism abolished that (at least in the private sector) and the UK economy recovered and flourished very quickly.
I believe it would have been much stronger still if it weren't hamstrung by the morons in Brussels.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Speaking personally I believe that all voters are between a rock and a hard place.

The EU is terminally flawed. It is like a ruptured duck that that is slowly collapsing before it finally sinks without trace.

However, some people who want to leave seem to think that two suns will rise the  morning after we leave.....and as a consequence England will become Utopia. It won't.

Trade deals will be difficult and unwanted immigration will persist.

As Frazer from Dad's Army would have said.......we're all doomed......doomed I tell you.

Can we survive outside?........yes, of course we can.

Should we?
 

[Viral_Jim]

By the way, there is no apostrophe in "20s" and "30s"

You really should be careful about passing off opinion as fact. Check the link below, the first answer references several style manuals for written English, all of which take slightly differing views on the presence, absence position and frequency of apostrophes in numerical dates. Besides, if grammar gets your goat, my posts provide much more fertile ground than that.

Linky

I believe it would have been much stronger still if it weren't hamstrung by the morons in Brussels.

And therein lies the heart of the issue; its all a matter of belief, you can't put a numerical value on the road not travelled. The problem is we're having this referendum for all the wrong reasons and arguing it based conjecture and spun numbers. Finally,  those who have the biggest say in it will be affected least by it.

I'm in no way saying we won't be able to do business with the EU, but what I'm saying is we put ourselves in a very poor negotiating position. As the good Doctor pointed out, the EU's very survival is in jeopardy, and do you not think other nations, such as Denmark who "pay in more than they get back" will look at how we are treated as a model for their own "Dexit"? The EU knows they will, and they know they'll need to hang us out to dry to discourage anyone else from leaving.

No need to get all huffy about my "ageism" and "whing[ing]" by the way; its not personal against any individual, its simply that we as a nation are at the end of decades in which we have prioritised care for the retiring generation(s) above any concept of how that should be funded. I mean, could you imagine paying non-working millionaires in their 20's and 30's (oops, there I go again, naughty naughty!  ) state benefits, plus a top up allowance to heat their homes in winter? Of course not, but so long as that millionaire is over the age of 65-68 (whatever the current state pension age is now), it would seem preposterous that we should take it away from them.

[05omegav6]

And what happens to all the expats if we leave?

Who pays for them to be repatriated and subsequently rehoused when Spain and France etc withdraw residency status?

How much would a Visa for a two week holiday for a family of four to Portugal cost?

What happens to all the EU workers currently in the UK?

Who takes over from the army of european labourers that do all the shitty jobs that we feel are beneath us... the cleaners, the farm workers, the nurses that work their arses off whilst the british staff bitch about the prospect of a seven day roster?

Those are questions I want to see asked, and answered, not the headline grabbing bullshit currently being pedalled both in the media and here.

I am no europhile, far from it... WTD alone is enough to make me scream, but I will be voting In because I sincerely believe we would be more bollaxed on our own than not. It's about forty years too late for all this nonsense about pseudosovereignty. Accept that and move forward.

[Migalot]

By the way, there is no apostrophe in "20s" and "30s"

You really should be careful about passing off opinion as fact. Check the link below, the first answer references several style manuals for written English, all of which take slightly differing views on the presence, absence position and frequency of apostrophes in numerical dates. Besides, if grammar gets your goat, my posts provide much more fertile ground than that.

As a published author, editor of several books for McGraw-Hill and a professional typesetter, I can assure you that it is not an opinion. I refer you to the standard reference for the trade, Hart's Rules, The Handbook of Style for Writers and Editors, Oxford University Press.

Page 66
Plurals
Do not use the so-called 'grocer's apostrophe', for example lettuce's for 'lettuces' or video's for 'videos': this is incorrect. The apostrophe is not necessary in forming the plurals of names, abbreviations, numbers and words not usually used as nouns:

...CDs...the three Rs...the 1990s

 

[Migalot]

How much would a Visa for a two week holiday for a family of four to Portugal cost?

Funnily enough, I travelled extensively in Europe without a visa on my GB passport — before the EU. 

[05omegav6]

How much would a Visa for a two week holiday for a family of four to Portugal cost?

Funnily enough, I travelled extensively in Europe without a visa on my GB passport — before the EU. 

That's right, pick holes in the easy question, because you have no answer for the rest of them

[Viral_Jim]

As a published author, editor of several books for McGraw-Hill and a professional typesetter, I can assure you that it is not an opinion. I refer you to the standard reference for the trade, Hart's Rules, The Handbook of Style for Writers and Editors, Oxford University Press.

Last printed in 2000, my my how thoroughly modern of you . Updated as The Oxford Guide to Style, referenced in my link? Once again, picking one source that suits your view and touting it as fact *sigh*. However, Harris has hit the nail on the head. Far easier to attack the minutiae than actually address points which run counter to your views. Such as decrying as ageism my (well documented) points about intergenerational unfairness in the UK.

[Sir Tigger KC]

How much would a Visa for a two week holiday for a family of four to Portugal cost?

Funnily enough, I travelled extensively in Europe without a visa on my GB passport — before the EU. 

That's right, pick holes in the easy question, because you have no answer for the rest of them

To a certain extent expats chose to leave this country for sunnier climes, so if circumstances change for them as a result of BREXIT then they should deal with things themselves.  However, I can't see the likes of Spain and Portugal who are still struggling to recover from the financial crisis, precipitating a property crash by expelling all their British expats, most of whom are relatively wealthy and a benefit to their local economies.   

There are thousands of British expats living in non EU countries like Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, the UAE and The US.  They seem to be OK? 

As to EU nationals already here, I really havn't seen anyone advocating some sort of mass expulsion, like Idi Amin expelled the Asians from Uganda in the 1970's.    What I could see happening however, would be further restrictions on EU nationals claiming benefits, but again much in line with what happens in other countries.  For Example, my mate lives and works in Texas.  Him and his family have US residency, however if he loses his job the residency gets revoked after 6 weeks and they have to leave, unless he can find another job in line with US immigration regulations. 

If Britain does vote to leave the EU, I think a great deal of pragmatism will have to be employed all round to keep not just Europe, but the wider world on an even keel. 

[tigers_gonads]

And what happens to all the expats if we leave?

Who pays for them to be repatriated and subsequently rehoused when Spain and France etc withdraw residency status?

How much would a Visa for a two week holiday for a family of four to Portugal cost?

What happens to all the EU workers currently in the UK?

Who takes over from the army of european labourers that do all the shitty jobs that we feel are beneath us... the cleaners, the farm workers, the nurses that work their arses off whilst the british staff bitch about the prospect of a seven day roster?

Those are questions I want to see asked, and answered, not the headline grabbing bullshit currently being pedalled both in the media and here.

I am no europhile, far from it... WTD alone is enough to make me scream, but I will be voting In because I sincerely believe we would be more bollaxed on our own than not. It's about forty years too late for all this nonsense about pseudosovereignty. Accept that and move forward.

The beauty of brexit Al is WE choose who comes and stays here.
If these people are of benefit to Britain then we encourage them stay and work.
If they ain't and are dead weight then we kick them out 

As for the sovereignty question, successive governments have been for 30 or 40 years been brainwashing the patriotic thoughts and spirits out of us because it makes us easier to manipulate and control 
How many English citizens even remembered what day it was when they opened the curtains on Saturday morning ?   
Yet how many English run off down the pub on St Patricks Day, wear a stupid hat, sing songs about the revolution and generally get pissed ?
Friggin ell, we are that shallow nowdays that we even care more what some gobshite elected president from the good old US of A thinks then our own history
Can you imagine what would happen if one of our elected muppets went over to the USA and told them that we wouldn't talk to them unless they stayed in and was controlled by a regional dictatorship full of unelected and unaccountable gravy train muppets like Europe ?   
You would be lynched and would deserve it.

Also please don't tell me that Europe would refuse to trade with us because that's 'dangle berries'.
Industry is governed by markets, not treaties.
If we have the skills (which I believe we might have a few left somewhere), the products and the price is right then countries will buy 

I highly suspect that any treaties with Europe would be sorted out in weeks rather then years because Europe needs us just like we need Europe.

I just want us to run our own country and be able to trade with who WE WANT, not who some un elected cockwomble in Brussels 

[Migalot]

As a published author, editor of several books for McGraw-Hill and a professional typesetter, I can assure you that it is not an opinion. I refer you to the standard reference for the trade, Hart's Rules, The Handbook of Style for Writers and Editors, Oxford University Press.

Last printed in 2000, my my how thoroughly modern of you . Updated as The Oxford Guide to Style, referenced in my link? Once again, picking one source that suits your view and touting it as fact *sigh*. However, Harris has hit the nail on the head. Far easier to attack the minutiae than actually address points which run counter to your views. Such as decrying as ageism my (well documented) points about intergenerational unfairness in the UK.

I quoted the New Hart's Rules (2005).

I only pointed it out after you needlessly mentioned your about public school, red brick uni, blue chip company background. Thought I'd have a bit of a poke and see how you reacted. You did nicely. 

My bad for baiting you, I suppose.   

[Migalot]

How much would a Visa for a two week holiday for a family of four to Portugal cost?

Funnily enough, I travelled extensively in Europe without a visa on my GB passport — before the EU. 

That's right, pick holes in the easy question, because you have no answer for the rest of them

OK, here goes:

Who pays for them to be repatriated and subsequently rehoused when Spain and France etc withdraw residency status?

They won't withdraw residency status. There were expats before the EU and they make too much of a contribution to their respective local economies for France/Spain to throw them out.

What happens to all the EU workers currently in the UK?

They'll stay. No-one has suggested they would be repatriated. It'll take a few years to get everything sorted, anyway.


Who takes over from the army of european labourers that do all the shitty jobs that we feel are beneath us... the cleaners, the farm workers, the nurses that work their arses off whilst the british staff bitch about the prospect of a seven day roster?

See above.

 

[Migalot]

Economists backing Brexit!

http://news.sky.com/story/1686730/uk-better-off-outside-eu-economists-say

 

[Viral_Jim]

Nah, I'm a big boy, I wasn't even aware that counted as baiting. Also, in a discussion about pedantry, wouldn't citing the correct publication be an adroit first move? 

Also, mentioning my background in detail wasn't needless at all, I was demonstrating how laughably wrong your assumptions about me were. My point still stands by the way; you picked a point of view, cited a source that backs it, and ignored the others. Analogous to the Brexit discussion? - I think probably (<- a few free grammar points for you to score in there one would imagine!)