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[OmegaGav]

Hi all, it's been a while  My Car currently has water in the oil and is leaking this lovely mixture from what appears to be the front of the engine, I am thinking this maybe the oil cooler but other oil cooler failures on here seem to suggest oil in the water is the sign of failure.........Which I don't have !......... Any advice welcome ! Thanks 

[tunnie]

Might help us if you indicate what engine you have? 

Water in the oil = head gasket

Oil in the water = Oil Cooler.

Oil Cooler issues only affect V6 

[OmegaGav]

Sorry Tunnie.! 2000 2.5

[tunnie]

Sorry Tunnie.! 2000 2.5

Assume you do keep a healthy mixture of anti-freeze to water of 50/50 in the system?

How much coolant are you loosing?

I'd say its worth inspecting the water pump seal first, as you say there is water in the oil, but its coming from the front of the engine? 

The dipstick for oil, does that contain water?

[OmegaGav]

Yup changed thermostat last year and refilled with 50/50 couple of minor top ups with just water since.
Had sudden over heating last friday ok when moving but straight to max when stationary, got home and topped up with 3 litres approx of water, checked oil then and some gunk in filler cap (usaual with my short commute to work) but dipstick looked fine. what i thought was an oil leak developed over the weekend have now noticed the puddles contain oil and water, checked dipstick an this has a slight creamy'ness to it and the gunk in filler cap is almost white !

[tunnie]

Yup changed thermostat last year and refilled with 50/50 couple of minor top ups with just water since.
Had sudden over heating last friday ok when moving but straight to max when stationary, got home and topped up with 3 litres approx of water, checked oil then and some gunk in filler cap (usaual with my short commute to work) but dipstick looked fine. what i thought was an oil leak developed over the weekend have now noticed the puddles contain oil and water, checked dipstick an this has a slight creamy'ness to it and the gunk in filler cap is almost white !

Right, well I don't think thats HG (2.5's are practically bullet proof for them)

You are loosing coolant somewhere, 3 litres is a lot of fluids. If HG was pishing that out, you would have zero compression.

Check the HBV for any leaks, as its common although at the back of the engine. Also check the water pump, to me it sounds like a coolant leak, but mixing with small amounts of oil.

Assuming when you lost 3 litres of coolant, your oil loss was minimal?

[OmegaGav]

Yep thought it was rare for HG to go  No obvious leaks from HBV that was changed about 4 years ago. there was no oil leaking before water loss, now I'm not sure how quickly the water was lost as I done a full service (Oil, filters & plugs) about 5 weeks ago then we went on a holiday to wales (5 x people 1 x dog and way too much luggage (women  ) drove like a dream and covered about 700 miles all fine before we left and hadn't checked since being back but hadn't noticed any over heating but there again most of my trips are fairly short so may not have reached full temp before stopping ! Water pump was replaced 3 & 1/2 years ago along with the cambelt

[Darth Loo-knee]

Hi all, it's been a while  My Car currently has water in the oil and is leaking this lovely mixture from what appears to be the front of the engine, I am thinking this maybe the oil cooler but other oil cooler failures on here seem to suggest oil in the water is the sign of failure.........Which I don't have !......... Any advice welcome ! Thanks 

When you say you have water in the oil are you seeing this from the dipstick? The oil filler cap? Or somewhere else?
If your oil cooler is failing or has failed, there will be oil in your water/coolant reservoir which can look like brownish mayonnaise..... if this is the case then your water system will have oil in it, in which case the radiator will not be cooling properly which could cause over heating.
Need some more information or some photos mate to help any more.
Cheers
Daz

[RobseyMV6]

Water not leaking out the rear side cly head HG...

[OmegaGav]

Just checked again and dipstick seems fine (Engine cold) last time I checked it was hot and felt oil looked lighter but thinking I only changed the oil 5 weeks ago.......... water seems normal but there is no puddle of water on the floor only a puddle of oil 

[RobseyMV6]

Is it lumpy on start up in morning, any white smoke from rear pipe?

[OmegaGav]

Hi Rob ! Some times it will take 2 short trys to start but always fires on second go sometimes I think it sounds like a slight blowing exhaust when cold but when hot the engine is sweet quiet as a mouse ! Now I have the conundrum of losing water and a puddle of oil under the car 

[OmegaGav]

Daz, i take it we still have to use photobucket to upload photos ??

[RobseyMV6]

Hi Gav, need to look under on rumps really...

[OmegaGav]

Sirloin or fillet ?     

[RobseyMV6]

 

[OmegaGav]

[/img]

[OmegaGav]

Last pic is kitchen roll... left is water middle dip stick right puddle on floor !

[OmegaGav]

[Darth Loo-knee]

Just checked again and dipstick seems fine (Engine cold) last time I checked it was hot and felt oil looked lighter but thinking I only changed the oil 5 weeks ago.......... water seems normal but there is no puddle of water on the floor only a puddle of oil 

Ok so water in the oil then, that's good news. Water does not have oil in it as you say it looks normal, that's good news too.
As regards to the water leak.. leave the heaters on hi and see if the water leaks. Then try the heaters on lo see if again the water leaks.
When the car is hot can you smell water at all or even oil? Where abouts on the floor are the water leaks and oil leaks when they happen?

[allen25]

Is it possible you could have two separate leaks? I had two leaks recently, similar drive mess, in this case the coolant was leaking from the water pump and the oil from the cam cover seals, all running down the block and ending up in the same puddle! My V6 is within a few months of yours and that is the first time both the water pump and cam cover seals have failed. Both replaced and all is fine now.

[OmegaGav]

Right the leak of a mix of oil and water is coming round the gear box bell housing where it joins the engine and dripping of the bottom. plenum is now off and hbv looks fine no sign of water round it, however when heating is on max the drip turns to a solid stream and no hot air in the cabin, looks like there is oil in the V so suspecting cam cover gaskets not sure where the oil is mixing whith water though it is a good mix though not streaky as if water was being sprayed onto oil,
Anyone fancy doing my camcover gaskets as i done these about 3 years ago and seems they have failed 

[amba]

Description you have given of oil/water mix appearing around gearbox engine joint would indicate leak is from the V of the engine.

Only thing there that would mix oil/water is the oil cooler but the plate seal would have also gone to cause it to drip down the back as it normally stays contained inside the water chambers.If you have no heating it might be the matrix is gunged up with oil/water mix and will need a thorough flush through as well,although this would all be pretty normal if cooler has gone.

Think you need to get the entire top end stripped down to see what is going on with the oil cooler /plate seal.

Would suggest NOT running the engine any further as you will just be pushing more muck around.

[OmegaGav]

Plenum off, inlet manifold off..... Rain stopped play  car going nowhere 

[albitz]

If that oil soaked piece of kitchen roll has been dipped in the header tank ?.............your oil cooler has sprung a leak.

[OmegaGav]

The left hand side has been dipped in the header tank the middle of it has had the dipstick wiped on it and the right side end is what i wiped of the floor !

[amba]

Would be worth pulling both quick fit connections off bulk head heater matrix join to see if they leak just coolant or the same oily mixture.

That would then give you a clearer idea if gunge has blocked up the heater matrix ,hence the NO heat issue.It does look like an oil cooler issue but you may have caught it before its gone too far into the system although will still need flushing through.

[OmegaGav]

Oil cooler was my initial thought but what is confusing is there are areas of clean oil in the V and the floor then the water oil mix running round the bell housing/engine joint Is it possible for the oil cooler to push clean oil up into the V and also leak the oil/water mix out somewhere else ??

[amba]

Oil could leak out of either of the banjo bolts that hold the feed pipes..they are sealed with a ali crush washer on either side and torqued to 30nm.

Suppose they could be leaking oil and if HBV is alos playing up the stream of oil might be taking the same route to earth as the coolant so appearing as a mixture .Would have thought oil leakage from the banjo bolts would be pretty conclusive if you are stripped down to the cooler plate.

Possibly coolant could also be leaking from bridge and mixing the same....needs totally stripping down for a really good look....pictures if possible might aid us further with online diagnosis

[OmegaGav]

[dbug]

You need to remove sandwich plate mate 

[OmegaGav]

Yep rained stopped play will be doing that tomorrow morning  Sorry for duplicating pics but it was too late to edit when i realised  Note oil in sandwich plate recess's and the bottom of both sides of inlet manifold 

[dbug]

Yep rained stopped play will be doing that tomorrow morning  Sorry for duplicating pics but it was too late to edit when i realised  Note oil in sandwich plate recess's and the bottom of both sides of inlet manifold 

Looks like you got cam cover gasket problems mate

[OmegaGav]

Maybe some seepage from cam cover gaskets but don't think it is to the extent of oil found also no oil in plug wells and no smoke from engine bay ie if they were leaking surely it would drip onto exhaust manifolds 

[amba]

Cam covers do look like they are weeping abit,but that wouldnt be enough to cause that oil slick under car.

Think you will get a much better idea of where the problem is when you remove that lower manifold with its 16 bolts..so dont drop them and keep those bits of kitchen roll in place.

Post up picture when sandwich plate removed

[OmegaGav]

Cheers Amba, Will do  TBH cars getting me down now  so far i have had the cambelt and water pump changed, HBV replaced then sent the ABS ecu to baa reman for recon, changed thermostat, replaced dispack, replaced cam cover gaskets Poly wishbone bushes are here to be done .............And now this .........

[amba]

Sounds like you have done enough to make it worth while fixing this problem.

Sure it will be much clearer with sandwich plate removed...if its the oil cooler sure you can pick up a decnet one from breaker and its only a tube of grey goo and couple of seals from VX so shouldnt hurt too much ...those cam covers might be a bit more expensive to sort with gaskets etc.

Lets hope its only leaking from 1 area and its fixable at a reasonable price.

[OmegaGav]

Sandwich plate off, now what am i looking for ?

[TheBoy]

Not clear from pic, is that rear banjo leaking oil?

[OmegaGav]

possibly but there is oil in all the recesses 

[OmegaGav]

But no signs of water, plus had a good look at hbv and there are no water stains on it anywhere so pretty sure that is not leaking !

[TheBoy]

But no signs of water, plus had a good look at hbv and there are no water stains on it anywhere so pretty sure that is not leaking !

Something amiss with cooling at back, if demands for heat adjust the leak rate . Split hose likely if not hbv

[OmegaGav]

Just about to say the left hand pipe on the coolant bridge seems wet and signs of spray behind the joint/pipe.  if  i remove coolant bridge and rear banjo bolt do i need new seals and what fluids will come out from where ?

[OmegaGav]

[allen25]

Did the oil cooler job this year. If you remove the coolant bridge, coolant will leak out if there is still any in your system or if you have not drained it. It is recommended that you refit with new washers, 2 per banjo bolt to correct torque (info on the site). I guess you may have to remove it to properly check torque on the rear oil cooler bolt (if you think it is leaking). That much oil that high up, i'd be running my fingers around cam seals etc before doing an oil cooler job, especially if you did not experience oil in your coolant tank...anything can go at any time though. Decisions, decisions. Keep going!

[OmegaGav]

just been to stealers and got seals for banjo bolts and coolant bridge, still no sure the oil is coming from cam cover gaskets as plugells are bone dry and no oil running down sides of engine,no smoke in engine bay, all oil is in the v as the boy says looks like rear banjo bolt is leaking oil at bottom and just below head of the bolt, going to replace seals and check pipe on coolant bridge then put bak together and see what happens 

[allen25]

I hope you've found both of your leaks, fingers crossed. Good to hear you found the parts today, its always next day around here!

[dbug]

just been to stealers and got seals for banjo bolts and coolant bridge, still no sure the oil is coming from cam cover gaskets as plugells are bone dry and no oil running down sides of engine,no smoke in engine bay, all oil is in the v as the boy says looks like rear banjo bolt is leaking oil at bottom and just below head of the bolt, going to replace seals and check pipe on coolant bridge then put bak together and see what happens 

Get two new banjo bolts for oil cooler as well as seals

Still wouldn't rule out cam cover gaskets due to amount of oil evident above the "V" - these gaskets can leak without filling spark plug wells with oil

[OmegaGav]

whos nearest me who does camcover gaskets ?

[allen25]

If there is no member local, having gone into the V like you have, you will no doubt have all the skills to do a decent job on the cam cover seals (if you think its them)! Personally I used genuine parts, use plenty of the sealant and do make sure the seal tabs at the rear (both sides) are located correctly. Details on the site.

[amba]

Having looked at those pictures the rear oil cooler banjo bolt does seem to have a fair amount of oil around it and puddled in the recess.

Given the amount of oil around that V it does look more likely to be cam cover seals as front oil cooler banjo seems to be much drier.

If you have all 4 cooler banjo seals then thats as good a place to start as any as the plate does seem to be sealed up properly.As advised banjo bolts must be treated with care as the threads are very fine and on refitting ensure they are fully bitting finger tight before putting any socket on it as you don,t want the threads to cross as only light ali.

Coolant bridge dowty washers could be causing slight coolant lose or spary so again if you have them to hand better of fitting new but again go carefull on the hollow bolts .

Lastly those cam seals shouldn,t present any problems given your ability to strip the top end down that far..only genuine VX seals/ 0 rings and black goo.

[amba]

If you intend removing the coolant bridge ,make sure you have drained the coolant as when bridge is removed you will end up flooding the V and probably get coolant down the inlets.Not worth all the extra mess just to drop coolant.

I found it easier when fitting the dowty washers to smear them in vaseline as they then stick to the bottom of the bridge bolt hole and make fitting easier than having to align washers /bolts and bridge with 1 hand whilst trying to do banjo bolt up with the other 

[dbug]

If you intend removing the coolant bridge ,make sure you have drained the coolant as when bridge is removed you will end up flooding the V and probably get coolant down the inlets.Not worth all the extra mess just to drop coolant.

I found it easier when fitting the dowty washers to smear them in vaseline as they then stick to the bottom of the bridge bolt hole and make fitting easier than having to align washers /bolts and bridge with 1 hand whilst trying to do banjo bolt up with the other 

I do the same 

Whilst you are down in the V check out the two hoses running from the coolant bridge - look for wetness or softness of hoses and pinholes by clamps.

[OmegaGav]

Thanks for the tips guys  Cars now back together and running  but still leaking oil  fitted new seals to banjo bolts and coolant bridge bolts noticed lefthand side pipe to the coolant bridge seemed wet so cut 3/4 inch off and refitted water leak appears to have stopped  Building a picture now of how this came about..... Coolant bridge pipe must have been leaking slowly and I had not noticed water level dropping especially after wales trip, resulting in a over heating incident where it red lined a couple of tiimes in stationary traffic. The heat from this I think has warped the cam covers causing them to leak and mix with the water already leaking  So new camcovers and gaskets required  Unfortunately i'm working 6 days of 12hr shifts followed by 1 day off followed by another 5 days of 12hr shifts before 2 days off  so may need to buy a couple of tankers of oil  before I can do the Job !

[dbug]

Result - well sort of.  Least you know where to go next

[OmegaGav]

Yeah......First drop the car of at the scrap yard then proceed to a dealers where Ive seen a top spec Vectra diesel estate for sale 

[amba]

You know you don,t really mean that