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[polilara]

Hello all

As I live here in the north my Omega is equipped with two electrical pumps in cooling system. First one is behind the radiator and I beleive that every Omega has that. The second pump is installed to the hose going to heater matrix. As far as I know the idea of this second pump is to increase hot water flow throught the heater matrix in these cold countries. On the other hand according to the owners manual that second pump should circulate hot water in heater matrix when ignition is off and 'Auto' button is pressed. This pump together with the fan should keep the cabin warm as long as engine have some heat left.

This second pump works well as I tested it with 12V source. When I press Auto in cabin the fan starts to rotate but only 0.4V comes to the wires connected to the pump (measured when not connected). Where is that current coming from, is there a relay somewhere? Everything else works fine in the car so guess all fuses are ok.

[Doctor Gollum]

Does the cabin air temperature sensor work?

If both the outside air and cabin temperatures are above the selected temperature, then the fan will be the only thing that comes on.

Also, was the engine upto temperature when you tried as the cut off threshold may be higher than you think.

Repeating the test with the cabin temp set on Hi on both sides might force it to run the second pump

[polilara]

Thanks DG for your quick (as usual) reply.

1. Yes cab sensor is ok; when driving and having set point in both sides e.g. 20°C fan speed is low and silent. When changed to 22°C fan accelerates and start to push hot, when changed to 18°C (from 20°C) fan accelerates and start to push cold.
2. I was in my garage and engine was only warm not hot, motor was hot earlier so the outside temp sensor might still have seen hot temperature. But I remember I put temp set point to HI. Anyhow, I repeat this all outside tonight with hot engine and report back.

[Doctor Gollum]

  Without the hand book immediately to hand, does it give a coolant temperature that the feature works down to?

The other thing to check is that the pump actually spins up with 12v applied as it sounds like the pump or its relay could be at fault.

[polilara]

1. At least Finnish version do not give a temp, If someone have other language versions available would be interesting to check.
2. Pump tested yesterday with 12V supply, it spins and I can hear that the water start to circulate. Might be the relay, I get 0.4V there to the wires. Which relay it is? I saw No. 22 here for X25XE and X30XE Lower one! Perhaps the lower one is for Y26SE and Y32SE Which I have (Y26SE)?? Relay 22 is named 'Pump Coolant' but is it for first pump or for second pump or is this relay for northern countries' second pump somewhere else?
Here
https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90458.0

[Doctor Gollum]

Will have a rummage and report back 

[TheBoy]

I think all higher end Omegas came with 2 pumps.  Fairly sure my Silver Bullet and TBE did.  Can't remember on the tractor model, or the N reg 2.5, or the gay Gold one...

[Doctor Gollum]

K22 is the relay, M54 is the pump.

Scandi models have an additional pump just fed from F15, no switch indicated on the diagram.

To further confirm the pump identity, pump M54 should be BRownGruN in and BRown out. 

[polilara]

Thanks, I do my homework as soon as back home, now at work with bicycle so have to heat up Omega first.

Found this old thread.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=130392.0
There someone say that F15 feeds M57, lets see the colors of wires...

[Doctor Gollum]

Let me know the wire colours when you get home and I will properly dig through the later diagrams (rather than the Haynes MFL ones) . 

[Andy B]

I think all higher end Omegas came with 2 pumps.  Fairly sure my Silver Bullet and TBE did.  Can't remember on the tractor model, or the N reg 2.5, or the gay Gold one...

My 1999 3.0 Elite only had the circulation pump on the rad 

[Doctor Gollum]

I think all higher end Omegas came with 2 pumps.  Fairly sure my Silver Bullet and TBE did.  Can't remember on the tractor model, or the N reg 2.5, or the gay Gold one...

My 1999 3.0 Elite only had the circulation pump on the rad 

Facelift?

[polilara]

So, part 1 of my homework:

First pump behind the radiator, a) red with green stripe b) brown
Second pump below tank pumping to heater mtx, a) black with blue stripe b) brown

[Andy B]

...
Facelift?

No .... the good looking MFL 

[polilara]

DR-Grün could be dunkel rot... which is dark red-green, which language is in use in these colours?

[Doctor Gollum]

German 

BR is Brün
GR is Grün

Ergo BRGN is BRown with a Green trace

DK would be Dunkel but haven't seen it used on the Omega diagrams
 

[polilara]

Strange, my colors do not match but they are from real life.
Homework part 2:
Engine hot, cabine cold, set point HI, auto pressed, ignition off
0.4V in second pump
and when air condition off but ignition on
0.4V
and when air condition off and ignition off
0V

So if no relay bad contact somewhere, if relay the perhaps broken relay.

[Doctor Gollum]

Strange, my colors do not match but they are from real life.
Homework part 2:
Engine hot, cabine cold, set point HI, auto pressed, ignition off
0.4V in second pump
and when air condition off but ignition on
0.4V
and when air condition off and ignition off
0V

So if no relay bad contact somewhere, if relay the perhaps broken relay.

Just to confirm, 2002 2.6 Scandi market car?

[polilara]

Yes, 2001 and bought here when new, 2 6 Elegance with winter package, LSD etc. I can send detais based on frame number tomorrow. Had this car almost 19 years so I know it pretty well.

[Doctor Gollum]

VIN will be of little use to me

[Doctor Gollum]

Coolant pump confirmed as BlackBlue/Brown

Fed directly from the climate panel Pin19 of X63 (one of the two plugs into the climate panel)

For identification purposes, Pin1 on X63 is Red... Pin1 on X64 is White

Runs via X3 Pin17 and X30 Pin3.

These are both the big round plugs next to the battery. X3 is run from under the scuttle. X30 is the main engine harness plug.

[polilara]

OK, thanks, have to study starting from the pump side, alredy saw yesterday evening that the cable from pump goes first to front and then turn left, goes under radiator and then turns left (back) in front left corner. Then it climbs up towards main relay box. If i understood right X30 is the first one from this direction; from pump to climate panel.

[Doctor Gollum]

 

[polilara]

Many wires...; some help still needed.
So X3 and X30 round connectors, are they those in my pic. below?
, most left one is empty? Anyhow, I did my best but I think that the wire from that pump below expansion tank goes to relay box. Can I be that wrong? Eleven relays. I checked that earth is OK in the pump connector and allways when iginition on I get 0.4V to plus.

[Doctor Gollum]

You also have the pin numbers.

The other round plug is X4 from memory. Currently about 800 miles from my diagrams.

You have the wire colours and pin numbers for each connector.

All that's left to do is physically identify the wires at each point and check them for continuity end to end and ground from each point working back from the aircon panel.

Short of actually turning up at your house, I'm not sure that I have anything else to add

[polilara]

Thanks DG for your patience. I might have followed wrong harness, new trial today. Actually all wires go inside neat plastic tubes connected to each other with isolation tape, no physical damages seen anywhere. Let's see what I find.

[Doctor Gollum]

You can test the wires for continuity and resistance via the plugs. Any wire with a resistance value of 1or no continuity is broken.

Any slight resistance above zero and intermittent continuity suggests a damaged wire.

Either way if the wiring checks out then the problem is within the climate panel. 

[polilara]

Sure, thanks. Climate panel would be another point to start today. Found this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90507.0

So radio and cage out. Do I just then have to open those two screws to take climate panel out. I do not undersrand where it "dissapears" in this case. I ask just to avoid romving parts which are not necessary to take out when removing climate panel.

[Doctor Gollum]

Sure, thanks. Climate panel would be another point to start today. Found this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90507.0

So radio and cage out. Do I just then have to open those two screws to take climate panel out. I do not undersrand where it "dissapears" in this case. I ask just to avoid romving parts which are not necessary to take out when removing climate panel.

Ashtray and radio out and remove the two screws in the top corners. Then lift the trim away.

No need to remove the plugs for the switches... Once the trim is free of the dash you can access the clips that secure the climate panel and also the plugs. Use the wire detail I posted to identify the correct plug for testing.

[polilara]

Thanks DG, I proceed during weekend, let's see...

[polilara]

Sure, thanks. Climate panel would be another point to start today. Found this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90507.0

So radio and cage out. Do I just then have to open those two screws to take climate panel out. I do not undersrand where it "dissapears" in this case. I ask just to avoid romving parts which are not necessary to take out when removing climate panel.

Ashtray and radio out and remove the two screws in the top corners. Then lift the trim away.

No need to remove the plugs for the switches... Once the trim is free of the dash you can access the clips that secure the climate panel and also the plugs. Use the wire detail I posted to identify the correct plug for testing.

So a bit uncertain to pull the climate panel out. Do I just have to bend those two clips below the panel (marked by red arrows) or are there more clips somewhere behind the panel? Bending is ok but the panel does not move. Don't want to use too much power yet.

[Doctor Gollum]

Leave that metal alone and pull the trim up and out with the climate panel attached 

That metal is the radio age and by and large irrelevant in this exercise. Ignore it. 

[polilara]

Thanks DG, seems that I have language problem; Trim with Climate Panel is up and out so I can see and reach the connectors X63 and X64. I only wondered that if I would like to take off the Climate Panel from the Trim how to do that, Are there some "clips" which release it.

[Doctor Gollum]

Yes, it releases from the frame towards the dash. There's two spring clips either side to release it. 

[polilara]

Coolant pump confirmed as BlackBlue/Brown

Fed directly from the climate panel Pin19 of X63 (one of the two plugs into the climate panel)

For identification purposes, Pin1 on X63 is Red... Pin1 on X64 is White

Runs via X3 Pin17 and X30 Pin3.

These are both the big round plugs next to the battery. X3 is run from under the scuttle. X30 is the main engine harness plug.

Thanks again, panel off now and plugs opened. Before I put my ohm meter there:
Plug in left side Pin 1 is White Red??? and Pin 17 is White.
Plug in right side Pin 1 is Red, Pin 17 is Black Blue and Pin 19 is Black Blue as well
So, right side seems to be X63 athough Pin 1 of X64 is not White
...do we have to double check something? If not I continue with Pin 19 in X63

[Doctor Gollum]

The pins are numbered on both the plugs and the sockets. 

[polilara]

Sure, next step is resistance measurement, hard to believe that bad wires anywhere. Everything looks very clean and nice under bonnet, too. Is the climate panel a typical part which fails and do someone repair them? Weekend is busy but early next week I have a possibility to go there with my Ohm meter...

[polilara]

So job jobbed, I mean that Pin 19 conducts fine to the pump in question. I already put everything back as I need the car soon. What next, does someone repair climate panels or is there available used ones which work? I need a spare or then I just leave it how it is.

[Doctor Gollum]

That certainly suggests a fault within the panel itself.

The panel can be dismantled with care, and there is a slim chance the the issue is obvious. Easy alternative is a replacement panel

[polilara]

Have to think this but thanks a lot DG!

[polilara]

Found several spares but still two questions:

1. Which numbers are important here? Upper one is mine, 69382201 is same in both others not. Does this matter?
2. Do I need programming/Tech2 etc. if changed?

[Doctor Gollum]

Lower one is newer. But they are interchangeable 

[polilara]

Thanks, then no problem to change if jut plug and play. Interesting is that this car was registered in Feb. 2001 and the panel is made in 2002. I bought this car Jan 2004 (driven 45000km) and it had issue with heater so the seller(VW dealer) took it to local GM dealer and it was repaired for me free of charge. So the panel really is a part which can fail.

[Doctor Gollum]

Any part can fail mechanical failure tends to be wear related with some warning given, electrical failure less so...

Replacing the part concerned is usually the most effective fix.

[Doctor Gollum]

Before you get too carried away...

I note the following from the Owners Manual...

"Residual Heat System

When the vehicle is stopped and the ignition OFF, the heat still in the cooling system can be used to heat the passenger compartment, for example when stopped at a rail crossing:

Press AUTO with the ignition OFF. AUTO and the pre-selected temperatures appear on the display.

The residual heat system switches off automatically when the heat stored in the cooling system is no longer sufficient to heat the passenger compartment.

To deactivate, switch ON the ignition or press OFF. "

[Doctor Gollum]

With the above in mind, get the car upto temperature and set the cabin temp to 21 degrees both sides.
Then turn the ignition off and press AUTO. If the system is working correctly, the pump should now run. 
If it doesn't run, repeat with the temperature set to HI both sides.

If it still doesn't work, then replace the panel.

[polilara]

Sure, those tests already done. I get 0.4V when the pump should run and 0V when not. Actually everything works fine except pump which does not get current. Pump is ok, tested it with outer 12V source. When engine hot and cabine and outside cold and ignition off when I press 'Auto' the climate panel comes on, fan start to rotate and pre-set tempratures can be seen. the fan is on perhaps 3 minutes and then slowly goes off. I guess that this happens due to the reason that pump is not running and heater matrix becomes cold. That is what I believe. Does the system know what is the air temperature blowed to cabin?

On the other hand: when engine cold, cabin cold and garage cold (all in same temp) and ignition off nothing happens when I press 'Auto'.

One thing came to my mind. I tested the pin 19 only with ohm meter and the resistance was "about" zero. With these cheap digital meters results close to zero are difficult. Perhaps I shoulf feed 12V to that pin and check whether the pump starts to rotate then. If there is a bad contact somewhere the resistance can be close to zero when not real current going through but when there is real load the voltage drops. Like when you have bad earth somewhere e.g in tail light. When only tail light on it illuminates but when you press brake pedal both goes 'off'.

[Doctor Gollum]

Would certainly rule it out. 

I couldn't remember if we had covered the ignition off part...

[polilara]

So, these long lasting projects... got new climate panel from scrapper with same serial numbers but it did not make any difference, less than 0.5V in conditions when pump should run and zero when not. Connected 12V directly to X63 pin 19 in cabin and pump started to rotate, perhaps should have started by doing this but you never know. Maybe this is thing that fails in those panels, from old thread
https://www.opel-omega.ru/uploads/monthly_06_2010/post-3981-1275983760.jpg
I would like to check this BTS711L1 chip just for fun. As I now have a spare I put the old one back and study the scrapper one.

[Doctor Gollum]

Pretty certain that I had suggested testing the wiring

Still, at least you know which bit is broken 

[countrywoman]

or fit a relay?

[LC0112G]

I would like to check this BTS711L1 chip just for fun. As I now have a spare I put the old one back and study the scrapper one.

That chip is quite a common one, although the official distributors don't have any stock (should be about £7). However, you can get it from eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404088583059 . I'd avoid any Chinese sources though. Data sheet is here https://docs.rs-online.com/4c6d/0900766b801927e4.pdf

Those sort of chips do go wrong quite often - they get too hot. It's not an 'intelligent' chip and doesn't need programming, so if you've got the tools it should be relatively easy to just lift the old one off and put a new one down. However, if you haven't got the right tools (hot air blower gun or infra red heater lamp) then the 'best way' to get the old chips off is to simply cut all their legs off close to the plastic body with a sharp scalpel, and then desolder the individual legs from PCB pads one at a time. This technique avoids damage to the PCB, but obviously destroys the chip you're lifting so no use if you're trying to lift the chip to reuse it on another board. 

[Kevin Wood]

The climate panel can be configured to work with or without the pump, if memory serves, so the replacement panel might not have the correct config (although I'd be surprised, since most late UK cars had the pump).

[Doctor Gollum]

The climate panel can be configured to work with or without the pump, if memory serves, so the replacement panel might not have the correct config (although I'd be surprised, since most late UK cars had the pump).

Scandi panels should be coded, but a Baltic sourced used panel could have come from southern euroland. 

But sounds like that could be an easy fix by someone with a Tech 2 and isn't afraid to use it...