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[Diamond Black Geezer]

I know this is fairly well-treaded ground on here, but I just wanted to clarify something about the Bose.

If I plug in a bose amp to the bose resonator speaker from an estate elite, and hook up the lot to a standard loom / head unit in a facelift cdx (the exact model escapes me, not my car! anyway...) what happens?

Do i get piddly sound/no sound or works brilliant from the woofer!?!


I very much doubt the latter somehow 

[Kevin Wood]

You will probably fry the Bose amp as it's not designed to take the a speaker level signal. At best it will be overdriven and give you very little control of the volume level.

I believe Dave DND sells an adaptor to drop speaker level signals down to Bose levels?

Kevin

[Dave DND]

Very simple answer - and one that has been written to death on this forum.

BOSE amplifiers and speakers will ONLY work with a BOSE enabled head unit that has been correctly installed and I guess that includes the correct wiring loom as well, (although making a new loom to retro fit this is perfectly acceptable)

If any part of the BOSE system is changed for something non-BOSE, whether it be amplifier, subwoofer, speakers, wiring loom, telematics, or head unit, then the system will not function correctly, and damage may even occur to some of the components fitted.

 

[Dave DND]

I believe Dave DND sells an adaptor to drop speaker level signals down to Bose levels?

We were investigating the use of a Porsche interface to do this, but so far have not reached any acceptable conclusions

 :-/

[MaxV6]

hmmm.....  there are some easily obtainable pro-audio bits of kit that might help....

a thing called a DI box,   many offer the ability to connect a speaker output to the input, , then pass the high level signal through to a speaker out put, but split a feed from that at -20dB or even -40dB in some cases,    the feed comes out "balanced" so would need converting to unbalanced (easy, just drop one wire to earth, or even just leave it floating. ) and feeding the other wire + earth to the device wanting a line level input.

The correct impedance load is maintained on the speaker signal,   so no damage to amplifiers ,  and the correct level signal ( these things typically have unity (0dB) , -10dB , and -20 dB switched options, you have to hunt a bit to find ones that do -20/-40  ) can be fed to the Bose amp.

they generally are active devices and need powering,  a 9V battery, or phantom power  are the normal answer,  so a bit of work to drop the DC from nominal +12V   to +9, and earth..... 

(passive DI's also exist, but are often sonically inferior, or lack the switched attenuation options...  )

[Dave DND]

hmmm.....  there are some easily obtainable pro-audio bits of kit that might help....

a thing called a DI box,   many offer the ability to connect a speaker output to the input, , then pass the high level signal through to a speaker out put, but split a feed from that at -20dB or even -40dB in some cases,    the feed comes out "balanced" so would need converting to unbalanced (easy, just drop one wire to earth, or even just leave it floating. ) and feeding the other wire + earth to the device wanting a line level input.

The correct impedance load is maintained on the speaker signal,   so no damage to amplifiers ,  and the correct level signal ( these things typically have unity (0dB) , -10dB , and -20 dB switched options, you have to hunt a bit to find ones that do -20/-40  ) can be fed to the Bose amp.

they generally are active devices and need powering,  a 9V battery, or phantom power  are the normal answer,  so a bit of work to drop the DC from nominal +12V   to +9, and earth..... 

(passive DI's also exist, but are often sonically inferior, or lack the switched attenuation options...  )

 I see 2 flaws with your suggestion:

1) The BOSE amplifier does not take a conventional line input voltage as used by everybody else - most of these convertors will not allow the correct range of voltages to be used with aftermarket head units, especially those that employ any form of digital encoder for volume incrementation

2) The BOSE system is really accoustically outdated, and really not worth investing the time and expense in trying to solve the problem - ripping out and replacing the system with an aftermarket speaker option is still cheaper and sounds much better.

Since the Omega BOSE system came out near 20 years ago, Speaker technology has moved on considerably, unlike many of the Omega owners who have not.

 

[Kevin Wood]

I believe Dave DND sells an adaptor to drop speaker level signals down to Bose levels?

We were investigating the use of a Porsche interface to do this, but so far have not reached any acceptable conclusions

 :-/

Ahh, I recall now.

I was going to have a play at some point. Haven't got round to it yet. Not helped by the fact that I don't have a Bose setup (nor do I have any ambitions of owning one).

2) The BOSE system is really accoustically outdated, and really not worth investing the time and expense in trying to solve the problem - ripping out and replacing the system with an aftermarket speaker option is still cheaper and sounds much better.

Since the Omega BOSE system came out near 20 years ago, Speaker technology has moved on considerably, unlike many of the Omega owners who have not.

Agreed. I think there's still some value in investigating this, however, if only to stop the repeated "How can I connect my Sony ..... to my Bose system" threads.

Those who want the best sound quality will of course take the whole system out and start again.

That does leave those who want a feature of a modern head unit (e.g. MP3 Playback), or whose CCR2006 has died. They are happy with the sound quality and not prepared to mess about removing 4x door cards and replacing all the speakers. They just want to be able to use an aftermarket head unit.

Kevin

[MaxV6]

Point 1 is fixable..... no matter WHAT the bose nominal line level is....   

you tell me the range, i'll tell you the solution.... not an issue ( I design, build, and wire professional recording studios , so, for example, taking a line level feed, or even a mic level feed, from the output of a 200W class AB valve amp, is par for the course....   


the solution i was proposing takes the analogue, high power,  speaker output , splits a feed off it, at the correct level, and then passes the speaker output onwards to speakers.

2 such devices, gives you a stereo feed...

if the speakers are not to be connected to the source, then a Dummy load needs to be placed on the tail end of that chain....  again, not difficult.

this assumes people want to use BOSE with a Non bose capable head unit, with a stereo speaker output set up, and need to feed the bose a lower level signal.

i assume the corss overs and amps for the rest of the system are in the BOSE bit.....  never having pulled the system apart, i wouldn;t know... all i DO know is how to get from one level of signal to another, with maximum fidelity ..... 


point 2


for people like me, who want decent sound, AND as close to original functionality and appearance as possible....    the Bose system is really the only  answer.....   especially if you like the built in Sat Nav options....    like me...


so I'm now pondering the long term project of acquisition and instalation of said item in my MV6, having come from an older Bose equipped,  Elite , the difference is noticeable....

i  do NOT want a flashy lights, garish horrid looking piece of jap plastic sat in my dashboard....

i LIKE the built in Sat Nav,   far more than a ~tom ~tom.....  (whihc i'm currently forced to use till i can get the NCDC replaced with one off phil.

(a this point someone will tell me i should have bought an elite....  ) 

[Kevin Wood]

Max, have you ever considered an Elite?

The Bose system amplifies all speaker feeds (6 channels - 4 full range in the doors and 2 subs in the boot) in the box under the parcel shelf (elsewhere on an Estate).

The Bose box is fed from the original 4 head unit speaker outputs but the head units are configured to output a lower level (but not as low as conventional line level) hence it can't be fed from a "standard" aftermarket head unit.

Nothing that clever happens in the head unit - the output is still fed from the same amplifier chips so I suspect it just turns on some attenuation to reduce the level into the bose amps.

I need to configure a head unit for Bose sometime and have a look at the output with a test CD playing just to confirm.

I think it's quite likely that a simple solution exists to drive one from the output of an aftermarket head unit. As you say, probably just a combined dummy load and attenuator giving a balanced pair from each speaker output.

Only slight fly in the ointment might be if there's anything weird like extra filtering applied in the head unit. Doubtful, IMHO. There's clearly a crossover for the sub in the Bose amp anyway so why wouldn't it all be done there?

Kevin

[Diamond Black Geezer]

Thanks for all youyr input. I didnt mean to re-tread an already well-trodden path! I have seen a silly cheap amp / rear speaker. No use without all else to go with it. Thatll do for me!

Cannot wrap my head round how car audio works, there's so many things that DON'T work, for reasons i cannot comprehend... so have very much respect for all you who DO understand it!!!  8-)

[Kevin Wood]

.. and having re-read your question properly No sense in fitting a Bose amp just to run a sub. Get an aftermarket amp with a speaker level input and switchable low pass filter.

Kevin

[Diamond Black Geezer]

Haha! No probs!

[Lampynoiseboy]

hmmm.....  there are some easily obtainable pro-audio bits of kit that might help....

a thing called a DI box,   many offer the ability to connect a speaker output to the input, , then pass the high level signal through to a speaker out put, but split a feed from that at -20dB or even -40dB in some cases,    the feed comes out "balanced" so would need converting to unbalanced (easy, just drop one wire to earth, or even just leave it floating. ) and feeding the other wire + earth to the device wanting a line level input.

The correct impedance load is maintained on the speaker signal,   so no damage to amplifiers ,  and the correct level signal ( these things typically have unity (0dB) , -10dB , and -20 dB switched options, you have to hunt a bit to find ones that do -20/-40  ) can be fed to the Bose amp.

they generally are active devices and need powering,  a 9V battery, or phantom power  are the normal answer,  so a bit of work to drop the DC from nominal +12V   to +9, and earth..... 

(passive DI's also exist, but are often sonically inferior, or lack the switched attenuation options...  )

 I see 2 flaws with your suggestion:

1) The BOSE amplifier does not take a conventional line input voltage as used by everybody else - most of these convertors will not allow the correct range of voltages to be used with aftermarket head units, especially those that employ any form of digital encoder for volume incrementation

2) The BOSE system is really accoustically outdated, and really not worth investing the time and expense in trying to solve the problem - ripping out and replacing the system with an aftermarket speaker option is still cheaper and sounds much better.

Since the Omega BOSE system came out near 20 years ago, Speaker technology has moved on considerably, unlike many of the Omega owners who have not.

 

TBF, it does still sound better than most of the factory fitted rubbish that's around even now. Agreed their is much better out there if someone wants to pay someone like you a lot of money, but as maxV6 says there are a lot of reasons not to do it- especially if you don't want to fit a load of kit that screams "please steal me" to all the chavs & have to call autoglass the next morning.

I really don't see why dave, you are so dead set against people like MaxV6 (who is obviously more than qualified), trying to help others out- unless you feel it will take work away from you?
Surely this is the whole point of forums like this, to help people with less knowledge or experience?

I for one welcome any help offered in any area of omega's, and will always be glad to offer what little I can

[Lampynoiseboy]

Max, have you ever considered an Elite?

The Bose system amplifies all speaker feeds (6 channels - 4 full range in the doors and 2 subs in the boot) in the box under the parcel shelf (elsewhere on an Estate).

The Bose box is fed from the original 4 head unit speaker outputs but the head units are configured to output a lower level (but not as low as conventional line level) hence it can't be fed from a "standard" aftermarket head unit.

Nothing that clever happens in the head unit - the output is still fed from the same amplifier chips so I suspect it just turns on some attenuation to reduce the level into the bose amps.

I need to configure a head unit for Bose sometime and have a look at the output with a test CD playing just to confirm.

I think it's quite likely that a simple solution exists to drive one from the output of an aftermarket head unit. As you say, probably just a combined dummy load and attenuator giving a balanced pair from each speaker output.

Only slight fly in the ointment might be if there's anything weird like extra filtering applied in the head unit. Doubtful, IMHO. There's clearly a crossover for the sub in the Bose amp anyway so why wouldn't it all be done there?

Kevin

I had the same thoughts about testing the OP when configured for Bose & not, but lacking a decent scope & tech2 to switch it back & forth for comparison makes it difficult. This would, with a white or pink noise generator (or even a copy of Stephen Court's sound check cd!!) also tell if their is any extra filtering, where it is in the frequency band, and how to replicate it at componant level or even with a ready-made processor
That, I would think would be the easy bit

[Dave DND]

Apologies for the length of this, but I feel I have to reply to this in depth.

TBF, it does still sound better than most of the factory fitted rubbish that's around even now.

Completely agree, factory fitted stereos do nothing more that "hide" the rattles and squeaks of a poorly made car - the only reason they were fitted in the first place.
 

Agreed their is much better out there if someone wants to pay someone like you a lot of money,

Actually, the upgrades I go on about are NOT that expensive - the original speakers cost less than a pound to produce, and some good speakers can be had for around £35 upwards - probably even less if you look for some good secondhand aftermarket speakers - if you want to go to the upper end of the audio performance, by all means come and see me, but I am more than happy to help those on a serious budget - just hate to see people wasting time and money. If you are going to spend the best part of a weekend pulling the car apart and replacing all this, why do people still insist on wasting all that effort by fitting the cheapest and poorest quaulity speakers.

but as maxV6 says there are a lot of reasons not to do it- especially if you don't want to fit a load of kit that screams "please steal me" to all the chavs & have to call autoglass the next morning.

Don`t understand what you are getting at? Can you actually SEE your speakers and amplifier then? No, didn`t think so - I`m all for retaining the original appearance of a classic car, and that means the head unit and anything visable - as far as hideaway amp and speakers, they can be replaced with better performing items and I do not see how anyone would know from the outside. Aftermarket speakers on the original head unit can sound very good - Its the BOSE system I have an issue with - it is very complex to fit, and the quality has been vastly overtaken nowadays

I really don't see why dave, you are so dead set against people like MaxV6 (who is obviously more than qualified), trying to help others out- unless you feel it will take work away from you?

Never said that I was dead set against anybody - nor have I ever questioned anybodys capabilities. If you read back over the years of this forum, you will see that this has all been tried and tested before and failed miserably - If people started to listen and do it properly, then yes, it would take a lot of repair work away from us, from people who keep blowing up thier BOSE equipment by thinking they know better. Philips went bust 10 years ago and spares for these units have long gone, so why not try to move forwards and keep some stereos alive, instead of keep blowing them up by trying the same old thing again and again.

Surely this is the whole point of forums like this, to help people with less knowledge or experience?

So why are you not listening to me then? I doubt there are many on ths forum with more car audio experience than me! However, you are right, thats exactly the point of the forums, but don`t ever think that the question you are asking hasn`t been asked before - read back through the archives first - there is some excellent articles covered by all sorts of experts - sadly, where it fails, is when people are too lazy to read what has preiously been tried or written.

I for one welcome any help offered in any area of omega's, and will always be glad to offer what little I can

Excellent - thats the attitude that keeps the forum alive - all help given to the forum is always appreciated by those in need. But I would like to explain to you the reason that I am on here.

I make no secret of the fact that I am not an Omega owner, nor fan, but I have a deep respect for anyone who wants to keep a classic car alive, and will do all I can to assist where I can. I was pointed towards this forum due to the sheer volume of blown stereos that kept turning up at our workshop after people had tried to fit them to Omegas with BOSE equipment, and this number has drastically reduced after people started to read what we, a car audio repair centre, had to say as a warning - people still spend the same money with me, that has not changed (Thank you), but they are now spending on improvements and upgrades rather than costly and unneccessary repairs.

BOSE works with BOSE

BOSE does NOT integrate with ANYTHING aftermarket