Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Lazydocker on 04 March 2012, 22:01:47
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Right, as we seem to be a wealth of knowledge on here I'll ask away...
We have oil fired central heating with a 30ish year old Bosch Worcester Boiler... In the 7 years we've lived here it has only needed a good service and a pump.
I seem to have come into an abundance of contaminated fuel :-X ::) Petrol:Diesel mix, probably about 80:20, possibly even more petrol than that. Anyone know what I need to change to be able to burn it (if anything) or a safe ratio of this contaminated fuel to Kerosene (or any other fuel) ??? ???
I'm interested in the answers as it could easily save me a lot of money heating the house/water ;)
Just to add, I've spoken to several of the other guys who have oil fired heating and an abundance of contaminated fuel so I'm intrigued to hear what others think :y
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Kerosene is also called 28 second burning oil, I have know idea why and have had a few too many shandy's to find out why but I reckon you can guess what I'm thinking...........
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Kerosene is also called 28 second burning oil, I have know idea why and have had a few too many shandy's to find out why but I reckon you can guess what I'm thinking...........
It is indeed... The 28 second actually refers to how long it takes an object to drop through it though if I remember correctly :-\ :-\
Not sure I can guess what you're thinking though :-\ ???
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well I was thinking you just need to increase the viscosity of your abundance of contaminated fuel to that of kerosene. Petrol and diesel will burn as clean as kerosene so thats not a problem........its just what to mix it with??
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well I was thinking you just need to increase the viscosity of your abundance of contaminated fuel to that of kerosene. Petrol and diesel will burn as clean as kerosene so thats not a problem........its just what to mix it with??
A bit of used engine oil springs to mind (as I tend to have plenty of that too) as mine is still fairluy clean when I change it in the Omega :y :y
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I am going back 30 years here when I used to work on Portable Industrial Heaters, not sure that the petrol mix is not too high...... :-\ :-\
Our Heaters were hired out to a variety of industrial users and the range, and quality, of fuel the used could vary a lot, we had technical figures for Gas Oil or Kerosene but in many cases it was tweak the pump pressure till you got the minimum / no smoke..... :D :D Never knowingly had petrol in the equation though.... :-\ :-\
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well I was thinking you just need to increase the viscosity of your abundance of contaminated fuel to that of kerosene. Petrol and diesel will burn as clean as kerosene so thats not a problem........its just what to mix it with??
A bit of used engine oil springs to mind (as I tend to have plenty of that too) as mine is still fairluy clean when I change it in the Omega :y :y
hey you know exactly what i'm thinking now......
Have you thought about selling your Omega and buying a Russian T72 tank I think you can put any fuel you like in that........ :D
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My worry would be the volatility of the petrol element .... :(
Kerosene/fuel oil/diesel all burn in their "liquid" state, be it using a wick or an atomiser to give small liquid droplets.
Petrol burns as a vapour, and that vapour in a confined space becomes explosive.
I accept that once "lit" the vapours will burn off continuously, however your boiler does not run continuously..... so BEFORE it is lit there could well be a build up of petrol vapour, when the igniter goes if that explodes instead of simply burning under control ....... methinks you have a major problem ....
Might well be a way around it, but I would be exercising EXTREME caution ..... :(
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My worry would be the volatility of the petrol element .... :(
Kerosene/fuel oil/diesel all burn in their "liquid" state, be it using a wick or an atomiser to give small liquid droplets.
Petrol burns as a vapour, and that vapour in a confined space becomes explosive.
I accept that once "lit" the vapours will burn off continuously, however your boiler does not run continuously..... so BEFORE it is lit there could well be a build up of petrol vapour, when the igniter goes if that explodes instead of simply burning under control ....... methinks you have a major problem ....
Might well be a way around it, but I would be exercising EXTREME caution ..... :(
I reckon thats good advice....how much of this stuff have you got????
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My worry would be the volatility of the petrol element .... :(
Kerosene/fuel oil/diesel all burn in their "liquid" state, be it using a wick or an atomiser to give small liquid droplets.
Petrol burns as a vapour, and that vapour in a confined space becomes explosive.
I accept that once "lit" the vapours will burn off continuously, however your boiler does not run continuously..... so BEFORE it is lit there could well be a build up of petrol vapour, when the igniter goes if that explodes instead of simply burning under control ....... methinks you have a major problem ....
Might well be a way around it, but I would be exercising EXTREME caution ..... :(
I reckon thats good advice....how much of this stuff have you got????
Somewhere in the region of 2000L per month :-X ::)
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My worry would be the volatility of the petrol element .... :(
Kerosene/fuel oil/diesel all burn in their "liquid" state, be it using a wick or an atomiser to give small liquid droplets.
Petrol burns as a vapour, and that vapour in a confined space becomes explosive.
I accept that once "lit" the vapours will burn off continuously, however your boiler does not run continuously..... so BEFORE it is lit there could well be a build up of petrol vapour, when the igniter goes if that explodes instead of simply burning under control ....... methinks you have a major problem ....
Might well be a way around it, but I would be exercising EXTREME caution ..... :(
I'll pass on what I have gleaned from the other guys when more people have had a chance to comment... There are a surprising number of us "Fuel Doctors" who live in an area that is "off grid" as far as gas goes
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I'm with Entwood and reckon the petrol content is too high.... BOOOOOOM!!! :o ;)
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Not sure what you mean by that but I'm totally off the grid as far as gas goes and if I had access to 2000Ltrs of that stuff a month I would be finding a way to put it through my boiler..........
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I'm with Entwood and reckon the petrol content is too high.... BOOOOOOM!!! :o ;)
I said it first...... :( :( :(
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Not sure what you mean by that but I'm totally off the grid as far as gas goes and if I had access to 2000Ltrs of that stuff a month I would be finding a way to put it through my boiler..........
I would be finding a way of putting it through the Jeep...........LD....will it burn in a diesel?
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For what it's worth I have a 20ltr container in my garage and anything and everything petrol/oil based goes in it, I use it to light bonfires and once the petrol mixes with the oil it looses it's volatility.......
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Not sure what you mean by that but I'm totally off the grid as far as gas goes and if I had access to 2000Ltrs of that stuff a month I would be finding a way to put it through my boiler..........
I would be finding a way of putting it through the Jeep...........LD....will it burn in a diesel?
Come down and we'll try ::) ::)
I promise not to charge you full price for the drain :-X :D
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Viscosity is the main issue, as said. Mixing with heavier oil a possibility, although not sure I'd want to use used engine oil, even if filtered, as it will give you a lot more soot, I reckon.
Changing the jetting would also be a possibility. You just need to ensure the right rate of fuel delivery for the (fixed) amount of air. If you have that right there shouldn't be any excess vapours to cause problems. Then again, if your fuel blend is variable that might not go too well. Lambda sensor in the flue and closed loop control perhaps? ;D
Lighting it is where the properties of the petrol will make a difference as Nigel says. You have a strong spark there and plenty of air before the fuel is delivered so hopefully it won't explode with the correct mixture. A degree of suck it and see there though.
Heating oil is apparently quite variable anyway. Depends what they have kicking around. Diesel, Kerosene, sub-standard Jet A-1, etc. or a blend thereof.
Got to be worth some experimentation with the price of heating oil. :y
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Heating oil quality is, as you say, highly variable ::)
The flue has a fantastic draw. When it fires you hear the air start being pumped through for 5-10 seconds before the fuel is injected and ignited ;)
My mix of fuel is quite variable... Obviously when I get a diesel into petrol I could try to get that into my tank ::)
As you say... Heating oil is getting eye-wateringly expensive now so...
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Not sure what you mean by that but I'm totally off the grid as far as gas goes and if I had access to 2000Ltrs of that stuff a month I would be finding a way to put it through my boiler..........
I would be finding a way of putting it through the Jeep...........LD....will it burn in a diesel?
Come down and we'll try ::) ::)
I promise not to charge you full price for the drain :-X :D
Seriously though, you must have thought about separating? cleaning? your fuel to burn in a diesel engine, got to be better than cooking oil............I say that but the boffins must have been there.... ::) ::) What do you and yours do with the fuel, it must have a use somewhere...... :)
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Not sure what you mean by that but I'm totally off the grid as far as gas goes and if I had access to 2000Ltrs of that stuff a month I would be finding a way to put it through my boiler..........
I would be finding a way of putting it through the Jeep...........LD....will it burn in a diesel?
Come down and we'll try ::) ::)
I promise not to charge you full price for the drain :-X :D
Seriously though, you must have thought about separating? cleaning? your fuel to burn in a diesel engine, got to be better than cooking oil............I say that but the boffins must have been there.... ::) ::) What do you and yours do with the fuel, it must have a use somewhere...... :)
The waste fuel is stored according to the relevant regulations in an Environment Agency registered facility (yep, I had to jump through loads of hoops ::)) before collection by the only company that complies with our company requirements and getting refined again and putting back into the fuel chain ;)
But if I can get my heating running on it then that will save me a considerable sum on my annual heating costs ;)
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Mist be a way to separate the two fuels DIY? Surely?
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Mist be a way to separate the two fuels DIY? Surely?
Two possibilities spring to mind, but neither is particularly straightforward...
Either 1. Gently heat the mixture and allow the petrol vapour to evaporate in to a home made condenser and collect the run off: should be neat petrol.
Or 2. Chill the mixture to approx -30 and simply pour the petrol off.
In each case you should be left loads of diesel for the boiler and free petrolly type stuff to use up in which ever pre '86 car takes your fancy 8) or donate to KW for the Westie :y
1. Is probably the best course, although extreme care should be used. If in doubt, don't heat it, but will take a lot longer to work. Thinking 30-40 degrees in a water bath, but obvoiusly try and keep the temp well below the flashpoint of petrol.
If you know any Science teachers, you might be able to blag the use of some Bunn flasks/glass tubes/rubber hoses and bungs and a Leibig condenser for the Easter hols. Just thing of it as you own little science project :y
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Ooooohoohoo, you wait til Kev see's that. ;D
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Al, your theories are good but you forget to take into account the impurities and additives in modern petrol ;) Plus trying to keep up with around 2000L per month would be impossible ::)
If I had a pre '86 car it would already be running on the contam fuel as it is mostly petrol anyway ;)
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Viscosity is the main issue, as said. Mixing with heavier oil a possibility, although not sure I'd want to use used engine oil, even if filtered, as it will give you a lot more soot, I reckon.
Changing the jetting would also be a possibility. You just need to ensure the right rate of fuel delivery for the (fixed) amount of air. If you have that right there shouldn't be any excess vapours to cause problems. Then again, if your fuel blend is variable that might not go too well. Lambda sensor in the flue and closed loop control perhaps? ;D
Lighting it is where the properties of the petrol will make a difference as Nigel says. You have a strong spark there and plenty of air before the fuel is delivered so hopefully it won't explode with the correct mixture. A degree of suck it and see there though.
Heating oil is apparently quite variable anyway. Depends what they have kicking around. Diesel, Kerosene, sub-standard Jet A-1, etc. or a blend thereof.
Got to be worth some experimentation with the price of heating oil. :y
I think thats the nail/head......heating oil being thinner than diesel...and petrol ever thinner.....i guess you have a mix thats too thin at the moment......so you just need to find something to thicken it up a bit.....then give it a go :y
As for old engine oil, i do know a local garage that uses an oil heater for the warmth in the car bays.....i know the owner chucks old engine oil in that......however i dont know how sooty it burns...i know the owner wouldnt care ::)
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Excuse mobli post... ::) Experiment small scale first. If it works then build full size int shed. ;-)
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Viscosity is the main issue, as said. Mixing with heavier oil a possibility, although not sure I'd want to use used engine oil, even if filtered, as it will give you a lot more soot, I reckon.
Changing the jetting would also be a possibility. You just need to ensure the right rate of fuel delivery for the (fixed) amount of air. If you have that right there shouldn't be any excess vapours to cause problems. Then again, if your fuel blend is variable that might not go too well. Lambda sensor in the flue and closed loop control perhaps? ;D
Lighting it is where the properties of the petrol will make a difference as Nigel says. You have a strong spark there and plenty of air before the fuel is delivered so hopefully it won't explode with the correct mixture. A degree of suck it and see there though.
Heating oil is apparently quite variable anyway. Depends what they have kicking around. Diesel, Kerosene, sub-standard Jet A-1, etc. or a blend thereof.
Got to be worth some experimentation with the price of heating oil. :y
I think thats the nail/head......heating oil being thinner than diesel...and petrol ever thinner.....i guess you have a mix thats too thin at the moment......so you just need to find something to thicken it up a bit.....then give it a go :y
As for old engine oil, i do know a local garage that uses an oil heater for the warmth in the car bays.....i know the owner chucks old engine oil in that......however i dont know how sooty it burns...i know the owner wouldnt care ::)
I have a waste oil burning heater in my workshop which will run on diesel or oil or any mix of the two,but petrol is a definite no ???
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Hmm. couple more thoughts.
1) Veggie oil is cheap and clean, and strikes me as an ideal "thickening agent".
2) Could you start the boiler on heating oil and introduce the contaminated fuel once it's established?
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Not if its 80/20, petrol/diesel. :o
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Heating oil quality is, as you say, highly variable ::)
The flue has a fantastic draw. When it fires you hear the air start being pumped through for 5-10 seconds before the fuel is injected and ignited ;)
My mix of fuel is quite variable... Obviously when I get a diesel into petrol I could try to get that into my tank ::)
As you say... Heating oil is getting eye-wateringly expensive now so...
If you stop posting we'll know you tried it and ....... ;D
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I might hear the bang from here. ::) ;D ;D
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Had a busy day today (about 200L of contaminated fuel into storage on the way home tonight :o) so I'll leave this running a little longer for more opinions...
But I'm still here at the moment ;)
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I'm with Entwood and reckon the petrol content is too high.... BOOOOOOM!!! :o ;)
I said it first...... :( :( :(
Sorry Vamps!!! :-[
Dosn't petrol and diesel separate when left to stand for a while?? ??? :-\
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I'm with Entwood and reckon the petrol content is too high.... BOOOOOOM!!! :o ;)
I said it first...... :( :( :(
Sorry Vamps!!! :-[
Dosn't petrol and diesel separate when left to stand for a while?? ??? :-\
Not really. Needs to stand for a very long time ;)
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No further thoughts on this yet then? ??? ???
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No further thoughts on this yet then? ??? ???
Not really.
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No further thoughts on this yet then? ??? ???
Not really.
Didn't mean you.... I was asking the educated members :-X :P :D
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No further thoughts on this yet then? ??? ???
Not really.
Didn't mean you.... I was asking the educated members :-X :P :D
Neither of them are online.
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No further thoughts on this yet then? ??? ???
Not really.
Didn't mean you.... I was asking the educated members :-X :P :D
Neither of them are online.
That explains it then ;D ;D
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Well, no-one seems to be sure, including some boiler engineers I've spoken to, but here is what I've gleaned from other guys...
One chap has had his boiler running on purely contaminated fuel for the last 6 years :o along with 3 friends' boilers too.
Another guy started, like the first, with a weak mix, then a little more, and so on, until he realised it was now on pure waste fuel.
Another one has it running on pure waste fuel and has done for over a year now.
Another 2 guys have just started to add it into their system.
So far, not a single one of them has needed to make any adjustments or changes to the boiler :y :y
Any more thoughts now?
My thinking is that as Kerosene is thinner than Diesel but thicker than petrol, my mixture is probably of a very similar viscosity. As Kevin has rightly said, Kerosene (or paraffin) are of very poor purity and often contain everything from the thicker oils to Avgas or even Jet-A1 (if it didn't meet the strict requirements), including Derv and petrol, so what have I got to lose? ??? ???
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On a 30 year old boiler.. Not a lot, IMHO. :)
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Lol.....if you had consulted a boiler ENGINEER you might have got a more definate answer......but having probably consulted a gas fitter or a service tech....but you knew that anyway realy :y
Anyway, for me I cant see why it would not work, the only question would be optimum jet size requried in order to get the best flame and least soot.
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A very quick search hints at two different types of burner, one being a pressure jet and the other a vapuriser type (it appears that most modern ones are the former).
Also, if its a pressurised combustion chamber (e.g. a balanced flue or a fanned setup) then there may need to be some further tweaks to the jet to get it optimum
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Also, looking a little further, the pressurised jet setups rely on the oil to lube the pump so it might be worth keeping a small percentage of heating oil in there given the poor lube properties of petrol and the 'not nearly as good as it used to be' lube properties of diesel. Should help prolong the component life.
Question is.......how long a stick are you going to use to turn it on for the first time! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Question is.......how long a stick are you going to use to turn it on for the first time! ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Mark, you are (of course) correct in that the people I have consulted I would describe more as "Fitters/Technicians" than Engineers ::)
Anyway... You have come up with the same search results and conclusions that I did by the looks of it... Shouldn't be a concern ::)
The only think I will be budgeting for is the potential replacement pump, which I accept, although none of the other guys have had any issues.
As for the stick? Our heating is on constant and the boiler has been cutting in and out fine on the (roughly) 4:1 (Oil:waste fuel) mix since the weekend :y
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Cool! 8) What are the emissions like tho? ??? I have a mental image of a plume of diry grey smoke coming out of the flue!! :o ;D