Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: tunnie on 16 March 2012, 11:29:50
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Having no clue on how to replace a V6 oil pump, how much easier would it make things having the car up in the air on ramps?
Does it make the job significantly easier? :-\
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i took one out a 2.5v6, but the engine was upside down at the time. im not sure but i think Daz has done one before.
i would imagine it to be a pig of a job from underneath tbh.
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I did drop Daz a PM, not sure if he is still using that new account he registered with, or gone back to the old :-\
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Geoff or Pete (V6 Technicians) had a brand new pump in stock a few years ago, not sure if they are still trading or if they have the pump, seem to recall them mentioning that it's an absolute bugger of a job!
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Have you checked the relief valve?
I'm guessing access from the top would be easier. cam belt, tensioners, cam pullies, backplate, crank pulley will have to come off for starters.
Looking at how clean the engine was when the sump was off, I'd be extremely surprised to find a problem with the oil pump itself.
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No i've not had a chance to inspect the valve, its far beyond my skill level to inspect it.
My thoughts were that due to the amount of effort involved, might as well replace the whole lot, saving re-visiting it :-\
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If you wanted to leave the old dog with me over a weekend I'd be happy to have a look :y
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No i've not had a chance to inspect the valve, its far beyond my skill level to inspect it.
My thoughts were that due to the amount of effort involved, might as well replace the whole lot, saving re-visiting it :-\
That is a bit like saying that you'll change the cylinder head to save having to replace the spark plugs, though. ;)
From 2Woody's comments I would say it's worth a peek at the big end bearings too. That's certainly a "from below" job.
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No i've not had a chance to inspect the valve, its far beyond my skill level to inspect it.
My thoughts were that due to the amount of effort involved, might as well replace the whole lot, saving re-visiting it :-\
That is a bit like saying that you'll change the cylinder head to save having to replace the spark plugs, though. ;)
From 2Woody's comments I would say it's worth a peek at the big end bearings too. That's certainly a "from below" job.
Not liking the sounds of all this :(
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Have you checked the relief valve?
I'm guessing access from the top would be easier. cam belt, tensioners, cam pullies, backplate, crank pulley will have to come off for starters.
Looking at how clean the engine was when the sump was off, I'd be extremely surprised to find a problem with the oil pump itself.
Plus sump pan and main casting, pick-up strainer, slacken off alternator and move to clear pump housing then you can access pump bolts
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Have you checked the relief valve?
I'm guessing access from the top would be easier. cam belt, tensioners, cam pullies, backplate, crank pulley will have to come off for starters.
Looking at how clean the engine was when the sump was off, I'd be extremely surprised to find a problem with the oil pump itself.
Plus sump pan and main casting, pick-up strainer, slacken off alternator and move to clear pump housing then you can access pump bolts
Fek me :o
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Think I'll try some Fully Synth first ;D
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I have done a few but not changed one because it had failed yet though.
To do the actually job is a pain in the rear, and like Rob has pointed out far more has to be removed that it seems people think.
Daz :)
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Stick another lump in it...?
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Stick another lump in it...?
Considering the cost of a new oil pump, the faff involved in replacing. I think I'm just going to deal with it, its only noticeable outside the car.
Just run it until it blows, if it does, secure another 3.2 Elite, replace engine, flog rest, prob break even!
Might stick some thicker oil in as just a test, opening a can of worms, but any thoughts?
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Thought it was just a top end tapping at tickover. Can't see it blowing. And tbh, can't say I noticed it meself. :-\
Do you need the car? Can it be off the road for a week or two or is it your only transport? Just thinking if it needs major surgery it might be an oppertunity to fettle a few things. If you wanted...?
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Thought it was just a top end tapping at tickover. Can't see it blowing. And tbh, can't say I noticed it meself. :-\
Do you need the car? Can it be off the road for a week or two or is it your only transport? Just thinking if it needs major surgery it might be an oppertunity to fettle a few things. If you wanted...?
Yeah its just tapping at tick over, might pop by your way some time, let you have a listen & your thoughts.
Can be off road, but I don't think its worth major surgery. It could be just me being very picky!
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Well, got two others here to compare yours to. :y
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Well, got two others here to compare yours to. :y
Sounds like a plan, compared to TB's mine was loud.
.... wait a sec, two? You got another? Other than black?
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Have you actually measured what the oil pressure is at idle? I mean using a proper test gauge? The oil light sender is fairly easy to get to if you drop the engine shield at the front.
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Mine clicks on idle when cold - my engine is only 22000 miles old (following tensioner bolt failure)- so if you want to compare and for me turn up in Reading at same tiime then I can do - if it is ok with Chris.
In fact the new engine in 2008 came only four years after oil cooler issues when they rebuilt the engine getting at an oil cooler leak. I have some interesting bills - thankfully paid for by VX!!!
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Have you actually measured what the oil pressure is at idle? I mean using a proper test gauge? The oil light sender is fairly easy to get to if you drop the engine shield at the front.
Tunnie's oil pressure is dropping below minimum spec at idle. Can't remember specifics, but it was dropping to high teens, Haynes BoB said minimum 22, mine dropped to high 20s.
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it is possible to do this with the engine in place, but in reality, it's easier to take it out.
Oil pump failure is very unlikely to be the cause of the low pressure. I'd actually not be that concerned with 15psi at idle, provided it goes up a lot with engine speed. An audible knock when you're on the move means that the engine is dead in reality.
Just say that you find the root cause - and for the sake of argument, the pick-up strainer has come loose. Then you'll need to take the engine out, get the crank re-ground and reassemble with new bearings (plus oil pump if you no longer trust it). Reattaching the strainer and fitting a new pump isn't going to cure it once its started knocking.
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it is possible to do this with the engine in place, but in reality, it's easier to take it out.
Oil pump failure is very unlikely to be the cause of the low pressure. I'd actually not be that concerned with 15psi at idle, provided it goes up a lot with engine speed. An audible knock when you're on the move means that the engine is dead in reality.
Just say that you find the root cause - and for the sake of argument, the pick-up strainer has come loose. Then you'll need to take the engine out, get the crank re-ground and reassemble with new bearings (plus oil pump if you no longer trust it). Reattaching the strainer and fitting a new pump isn't going to cure it once its started knocking.
To me, its tappet noise. Not deep bottom end noise.
It seems to get worse as engine heats (and oil thins?).
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Defo check the oil pres. relief valve first. I know you've still got to strip the cambelt cover off but your be doing that any way if you do end up stripping the pump out. I take it you've Changed the oil filter? (I don't know what else you've tried so sorry if it sounds like I'm telling you to suck eggs). You have to start some where if it was me I'd do the following
1/ oil filter and oil change
2/ oil pressure relief valve
3/ oil pump remove and measure
4/ Hydraulic tappets
5/ main bearings
TBH once you've gone past the oil pump stage I'd be throwing the lump away and find another. The costs will go mad if you need to replace all the lifters or start getting parts machined. The lifters used are the same as the straight 6 engine and the 16 valve 4 bangers. Vx will want over 30 quid each however you can get the parts from the manufacturer for around 8-9 quid each. Still mounts up quickly though by the time you've added in the gaskets etc.
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it is possible to do this with the engine in place, but in reality, it's easier to take it out.
Oil pump failure is very unlikely to be the cause of the low pressure. I'd actually not be that concerned with 15psi at idle, provided it goes up a lot with engine speed. An audible knock when you're on the move means that the engine is dead in reality.
Just say that you find the root cause - and for the sake of argument, the pick-up strainer has come loose. Then you'll need to take the engine out, get the crank re-ground and reassemble with new bearings (plus oil pump if you no longer trust it). Reattaching the strainer and fitting a new pump isn't going to cure it once its started knocking.
To me, its tappet noise. Not deep bottom end noise.
It seems to get worse as engine heats (and oil thins?).
Yeah, as above its sweet as a nut when cold. Only very hot, it can get little better as it cools at idle (when the fans come on) its slightly less noticeable.
Pressure picks up very quickly and stays high with any amount of revs, easily going 80Psi+ at very high revs.
If that low pressure is acceptable, to lessen the impact would a thicker oil be ok?
Defo check the oil pres. relief valve first. I know you've still got to strip the cambelt cover off but your be doing that any way if you do end up stripping the pump out.
Now i know whats involved in getting to this & removing the pump, its not a road I really want to go down.
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Should add its had several oil & filter changes, using GM 10/40. Currently got that, with a bottle of lifter treatment in it.
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As long as you've got some oil pressure at idle (I've known older cars and tractors which are only designed to have 3-5psi at idle) and aren't to bothered I live with it until the cambelt needs doing again then when it's stripped down I'd have a look at the pressure relief valve. I have to say it will get a lot worse (if it does get any worse at all) before it goes bang. Then just find another lump. Does it have inter Stella mileage on the lump.
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Not for a V6, 139k.
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Mine clicks on idle when cold - my engine is only 22000 miles old (following tensioner bolt failure)- so if you want to compare and for me turn up in Reading at same tiime then I can do - if it is ok with Chris.
Very kind, thank you :y
I am quite tempted to pop up to Chris to do a compare :)
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Did the pressure steadily increase across the rev range or hit 80 PSI at mid revs and then stabilise? Did you try measuring it cold too?
If it's steadily increasing with revs it's a classic symptom of a stuck relief valve. If not, the relief valve is controlling pressure, but wear, most likely in the bottom end bearings, has reduced the pressure at idle.
Changing the oil grade won't make any odds, IMHO. You might get a better pressure reading but at the expense of flow, i.e. less lubrication to the bearings.
Other than checking the relief valve, it's something you might as well live with for now, IMHO. If you start getting symptoms of bottom end wear then it's time to decide whether to stick some new shells in, take nit out and rebuild it or find another engine.
Incidentally, it would be interesting to put that gauge on the Silver Bullet and see how that's behaving following the rattly lifter issue.
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As long as you've got some oil pressure at idle (I've known older cars and tractors which are only designed to have 3-5psi at idle) and aren't to bothered I live with it until the cambelt needs doing again then when it's stripped down I'd have a look at the pressure relief valve. I have to say it will get a lot worse (if it does get any worse at all) before it goes bang. Then just find another lump. Does it have inter Stella mileage on the lump.
Agreed. as long as you've got a couple of bar by the time the engine starts producing real torque (so 2200 RPM or so on a V6) it probably won't get any worse.
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Well, got two others here to compare yours to. :y
Sounds like a plan, compared to TB's mine was loud.
.... wait a sec, two? You got another? Other than black?
Yes...yes...and no, don't be silly. ;D
Black mv6 3.2. 120k so similar/closer miles to yours iirc. Might be worth bringing your oil pressure tester, see what this one reads...? :-\
Pscocoa your more than welcome.
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To answer some of the above:
Little Fatty has my oil pressure tester (not one Debs kindly donated) - I did not get a chance to run pressure on mine when cold, we did compare to TBE, which was tad higher at idle, never really going below 25 Psi.
Pressure did increase steadily, although a tad jumpy as revs increased, although TBE displayed same characteristics when reving.
Bugger on the oil, if only i could make it a tad quieter I'd be happy 8)
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Have you checked the relief valve?
I'm guessing access from the top would be easier. cam belt, tensioners, cam pullies, backplate, crank pulley will have to come off for starters.
Looking at how clean the engine was when the sump was off, I'd be extremely surprised to find a problem with the oil pump itself.
Plus sump pan and main casting, pick-up strainer, slacken off alternator and move to clear pump housing then you can access pump bolts
Fek me :o
Does main casting off mean subframe off?
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If it was me and i was replacing the pump. I'd do the following
1/ strip front of engine down as I was attempting to carry out a cambelt.
2/ remove engine shield at the front.
3/ loosen off the engine mounts
4/ raise engine on a lift and support this should give enough room to get the sump low enough to get to the oil pick up
5/ unbolt the oil pump and replace.
Yea it's a right faff but better than dropping sub frame or taking engine right out.
What might make you swear is a new pump is 366 quid +VAT
Part number was 90410799 replaced by 90571901
If you want to take a chance on second hand one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OPEL-OMEGA-VECTRA-2-5-X25XE-V6-ENGINE-OIL-PUMP-GM-90410799-/310371261927?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4843919de7#ht_1331wt_1166 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OPEL-OMEGA-VECTRA-2-5-X25XE-V6-ENGINE-OIL-PUMP-GM-90410799-/310371261927?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4843919de7#ht_1331wt_1166)
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I don't have an engine lift here, so that's that plan out. :(
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Not looking to do that amount of drastic work to be honest, I'll just learn to live with it if needs be
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But I don't see too much difficulty getting to the relief valve, if this is the correct picture with relief valve assembly upper most...? Or am I missing something!
(http://www.vauxhallworldparts.com/images/9193203.JPG)
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Relief valve is pretty straight forward but you do have to remove the timing cover. So it's plenum off, unbolt the wiring harness from the front and remove the associated pulley wheels. So a bit of a work up but nothing drastic.
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That sounds much more reasonable :)
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I think it's worth a try. Might find a busted spring, worn seal, gunge or sumat...? :-\
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Or just stuck. MY LC one needed stripping and a rub with some fine emery cloth to remove the burrs
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If the spring is busted or an issue with gunge, can it be sorted without removing the pump? :-\
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Looks like it, from the diag.
Plus I'm sure I've seen that cap head Torx from doing cam belts etc.
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The hardest bit will be removing the plunger if it's stuck. If you look at the picture of the pump on ebay at the mo you can clearly make out the two tork heads along the top of the pump. There's a link in a previous post of mine You need the smaller of the two just above the hole for the crank to come through
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A pic in here shows it to the right of the bottom idler, below a stud that unscrews, that holds the cam cover in place.
http://www.migweb.co.uk/forums/items-sale/272032-omega-3-0-v6-engine-bits.html
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Looks like I need a favour from the experts! :-*
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Ya better tickle TB up then. ;D
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Should add I have a local members gaskets plugs and leads to do yet, so won't be immediate.
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No rush, but it's something I want to sort :)
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I don't have an engine lift here, so that's that plan out. :(
You want an engine frame (long bar with two tall feet, sits on the inner wings, chain to the engine and then wind it up on the bolt).. I have one here in the garage you're welcome to come use/borrow. There's a 2tonne engine crane, too, if the engine has to come out at any point.
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Shhh! :-X
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Sorry, am I giving you one less way to get out of the job? ;) ;D
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Seeing as you have the tools already... :)
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Crap! I walked right into that one.. ;D
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I don't think it's worth that amount of agro tbh.
Cirtainly not yet . Let's see what transpires...
Could always stick a v8 in it? :)
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I've got a V12 going spare.. ;)
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I'd love a V8 in there :D
V12 might be a bit tight
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Having stripped all the plastics etc off the 12 last night, you're not wrong! I now know why Jags have bonnets where the length is measured in weeks, not inches ;D
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Stick another lump in it...?
New to Trade Club - VXPRO engines and cylinder heads (news 01/10/2009 )
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Application Description Part No. Retail Trade Trade Club Wish List
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3.2i 24v V6 - Y32SE R1000151A £1,641.00 £1,641.00 £1,641.00
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it is possible to do this with the engine in place, but in reality, it's easier to take it out.
Oil pump failure is very unlikely to be the cause of the low pressure. I'd actually not be that concerned with 15psi at idle, provided it goes up a lot with engine speed. An audible knock when you're on the move means that the engine is dead in reality.
Just say that you find the root cause - and for the sake of argument, the pick-up strainer has come loose. Then you'll need to take the engine out, get the crank re-ground and reassemble with new bearings (plus oil pump if you no longer trust it). Reattaching the strainer and fitting a new pump isn't going to cure it once its started knocking.
To me, its tappet noise. Not deep bottom end noise.
It seems to get worse as engine heats (and oil thins?).
I have recently made exactly that mistake...... ::)
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Is it likely that the low oil pressure is related to the tapping noise (little end perhaps?), I know very little about these engine internals, but little ends used to fail in the past. Or is it possibly a damaged lifter? Could that cause reduced oil pressure?
...Just thinking aloud.
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Thing is, if its a damaged lifter it would make the sound from cold. Its only as oil thins when there is an issue, sounds like multiple tappets.
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Thicker oil then? :-\
Although Kevin's thoughts about oil flow also spring to mind. :-\
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Thicker oil then? :-\
Although Kevin's thoughts about oil flow also spring to mind. :-\
I think its worth a go? See if it makes any impact.
Question is, what grade?
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You could try a 10W50 (same when cold, better temperature handling) or 15W50 fully synth (thicker in all conditions), but be aware you're trading flow for pressure as someone else said.
Not that I can see the oil being hot enough in an Omega to need anything special, oil wise.