Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Entwood on 28 March 2008, 10:15:00

Title: LPG (again)
Post by: Entwood on 28 March 2008, 10:15:00
Sorry to keep asking what appears to be similar questions... but I'm still researching this quite seriously ... :)

Elite Pete's contact in South Wales is offering a full conversion for £1200 inc VAT, with a 1 year warranty and certification, and the testimonials look pretty good (OK .. he won't publish bad ones I know !!)... now this is for an OMVL multipoint DREAM XX1N ( whatever that is !!)

Could someone who knows kindly give relative merits of the 4 major systems I've been quoted for so far ??

OMVL - £1200
Prins  - £2000
BRC  -  £2300

Buy the kit - "Romano" I believe - £800 ish - + fitting & certification ??

THis price(£1200) looks almost too good to be true.. but I could be seriously interested... :)

http://www.professautogas.co.uk/index.htm

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LPG-4cyl-OMVL-AC-Multipoint-Conversion-in-South-Wales_W0QQitemZ330221193146QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330221193146

Many thanks
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Jay w on 28 March 2008, 11:19:06
Pete's contact also fits the STAG kit that James and i have used as an alternative to the Prinz kit.

Sorry if i sound a bit doubting but i really struggle to see how someone can fit an entire kit in 1 day, truse me that is going some, or he has a whole team of people working on the car (1 front end, 1 back end, 1 inside/odds and ends)

Would love to see some pics of his installs, just to see how tidy they are as well, if he is as good as he claims then pics should not be an issue
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 March 2008, 11:52:25
I agree. That price doesn't cover the cost of enough labour to do the job right, IMHO. I'd want to see a car he's converted first.

When we did James' Facelift 2.5 3 of us were working on it pretty much solidly for a whole weekend (into the evenings) apart from an hour or so when we went for a jaunt to get some bits. That's three guys who are reasonably mechanically competent albeit we don't do LPG conversions every day. Oh, and the tank was already fitted in the car so it was fitting the front end and the fuel line only.

Kevin
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: keith2.2 on 28 March 2008, 11:58:25
I've got a BRC system in mine..I had no idea they were so expensive  :o
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Elite Pete on 28 March 2008, 12:02:15
Why not contact a few of the buyers of Ebay from 12 month ago, see if their still happy with the install?
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Marie on 28 March 2008, 12:02:37
Mine is going to have an SGI kit put in it.
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Jay w on 28 March 2008, 12:18:11
Quote
Why not contact a few of the buyers of Ebay from 12 month ago, see if their still happy with the install?

Good point  :y
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Danny on 28 March 2008, 14:46:54
mine's the dream 21 OMVL kit i paid £1250 for

make sure the fitters are better qualified than the f**kwit that did mine

b***cks to naming and shaming... dont get it done in wigan, thats all i'll say
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 March 2008, 14:59:31
Quote
mine's the dream 21 OMVL kit i paid £1250 for

make sure the fitters are better qualified than the f**kwit that did mine

b***cks to naming and shaming... dont get it done in wigan, thats all i'll say

How is yours going now, Danny?

Looking at the price of petrol still creeping up I think I will have to sacrifice some of my boot sooner or later. :'(

Kevin
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 28 March 2008, 15:00:01
Quote
mine's the dream 21 OMVL kit i paid £1250 for

make sure the fitters are better qualified than the f**kwit that did mine

b***cks to naming and shaming... dont get it done in wigan, thats all i'll say


Saying nothing but I would definately DIY again.
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Danny on 28 March 2008, 15:06:53
Quote
Quote
mine's the dream 21 OMVL kit i paid £1250 for

make sure the fitters are better qualified than the f**kwit that did mine

b***cks to naming and shaming... dont get it done in wigan, thats all i'll say

Saying nothing but I would definately DIY again.

my plan is hopefully to get it looked at by fellow members in exchange for beer (with what i'm prepared to pay, many of you will be unconscious i think!) once its warranty is expired, it just needs to be tidied up now, things are working again but admittedly it felt odd today trying to get up a hill, my foot was steady holding at 2500 revs, but then it was losing power, stuttering
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 March 2008, 15:10:17
Quote
Saying nothing but I would definately DIY again.

There's too much that I wouldn't be prepared to entrust to someone else. Cutting holes in the bodyshell and rustproofing them properly... Drilling and tapping the intake and cleaning all the swarf out properly.... Not bodging the electrics... Tuning it sensibly...

And LPGA approval means nothing.

Kevin
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Danny on 28 March 2008, 15:21:34
i'm almost tempted to sell the car once its right anyway
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 28 March 2008, 16:18:51
Quote
Quote
Saying nothing but I would definately DIY again.

There's too much that I wouldn't be prepared to entrust to someone else. Cutting holes in the bodyshell and rustproofing them properly... Drilling and tapping the intake and cleaning all the swarf out properly.... Not bodging the electrics... Tuning it sensibly...

And LPGA approval means nothing.

Kevin

ECUs in air boxes, cable routed past ICVs,
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Entwood on 28 March 2008, 16:26:01
OK OK .. you've convinced me ... :)

I'll cross him off my list as highly suspect .. that leaves few options ... I know Marie is having hers done.. is it by the "Mobile OOF Fitters Asociation ??"

If so .. can I join the queue ?? I'll provide beer and cash :) There is just no way I'm competent to do an LPG conversion .. I'd probably blow the car street up !!

The only other options are to pay £2000+ .. :(
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 28 March 2008, 16:28:32
Quote
OK OK .. you've convinced me ... :)

I'll cross him off my list as highly suspect .. that leaves few options ... I know Marie is having hers done.. is it by the "Mobile OOF Fitters Asociation ??"

If so .. can I join the queue ?? I'll provide beer and cash :) There is just no way I'm competent to do an LPG conversion .. I'd probably blow the car street up !!

The only other options are to pay £2000+ .. :(

How about Taxi Drivers installers - they are near to you aren't they?

As to DIY, Kevin does have a wide band Lambda whish is VERY usefull for getting the mixture correct
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Entwood on 28 March 2008, 16:29:37
If the guys who did TD's are the ones in Swindon .. they want £2300  :(
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 28 March 2008, 16:30:33
Quote
If the guys who did TD's are the ones in Swindon .. they want £2300  :(


Eeek!!!!

Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 March 2008, 16:36:12
Quote
As to DIY, Kevin does have a wide band Lambda whish is VERY usefull for getting the mixture correct

True. I'm hoping it will be useful when the time comes. However, I may have an easier method for 2.2/2.6/3.2 cars.

My ELM code reader can read live data, so I can see what long and short term Lambda corrections are being applied by the ECU, hence no need to replace one of the Lambdas with a wideband, and put together some sort of loom to feed a "simulated narrow band" output back into the ECU.

Only downside with that is that using a wideband you can map right up to full load at full revs whereas you've got to guesstimate that without.

Kevin
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 28 March 2008, 16:43:03
Quote
Quote
As to DIY, Kevin does have a wide band Lambda whish is VERY usefull for getting the mixture correct

True. I'm hoping it will be useful when the time comes. However, I may have an easier method for 2.2/2.6/3.2 cars.

My ELM code reader can read live data, so I can see what long and short term Lambda corrections are being applied by the ECU, hence no need to replace one of the Lambdas with a wideband, and put together some sort of loom to feed a "simulated narrow band" output back into the ECU.

Only downside with that is that using a wideband you can map right up to full load at full revs whereas you've got to guesstimate that without.

Kevin


I could do with some fine tuning - mine is quite close but I think it could be better - need to do the thermostat first
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Marie on 28 March 2008, 16:48:05
Quote
Quote
OK OK .. you've convinced me ... :)

I'll cross him off my list as highly suspect .. that leaves few options ... I know Marie is having hers done.. is it by the "Mobile OOF Fitters Asociation ??"

If so .. can I join the queue ?? I'll provide beer and cash :) There is just no way I'm competent to do an LPG conversion .. I'd probably blow the car street up !!

The only other options are to pay £2000+ .. :(

How about Taxi Drivers installers - they are near to you aren't they?

As to DIY, Kevin does have a wide band Lambda whish is VERY usefull for getting the mixture correct

kind off. ill be joining the fitters crew once we have completed mine. i wouldnt takle it on my own as i would probally blow the car street up too ;D ;D

as kev says their is far toomuch that i wouldnt trust anyone else doing.

goes back to the old saying my mother used to harp on at me!
"if you want a job doing correctly the first time you gotta do it yourself." :) ;)
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Entwood on 01 April 2008, 18:26:56
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG.

Any views anyone ??
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 01 April 2008, 19:57:20
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG.

Any views anyone ??


Where was this?
Mine have done about 20,000 on LPG so far
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 01 April 2008, 20:08:20
Quote
If the guys who did TD's are the ones in Swindon .. they want £2300  :(

If its Dieselec (Gas and Go).........ask them for a quote again if you havent recently been quoted by them.....their prices have come down recently..... :y
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 01 April 2008, 20:10:43
Quote
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG.

Any views anyone ??


Where was this?
Mine have done about 20,000 on LPG so far

I know mines a 4 pot.......but its done 85k on lpg now  :y
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Jay w on 01 April 2008, 20:22:33
Entwood, if i had the time i would pop up and show you how/help do it.

It truly isn't that hard, more time consuming than anything else.

I was a bit nervous the first time i did mine, but then realise so long as all the connections are gas tight it will be OK.

Mind you the fist time i switched over i was still sat in the car with eyes closed clenching everything.....not that it would have done much good, i was sat in a petrol station at the time   ;D ;D
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Jay w on 01 April 2008, 20:27:07
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.Sounds like they are covering their back there

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.Wouldn't we all like that as an extra bit of business on top of doing a LPG conversion (that has the be a few hundred quids worth of work there)

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG. my engine ran at the same temp on LPG or petrol

Any views anyone ??

Highlighted......

yes with an LPG kit it is a little more awkward to work on some of the things they have mentioned, but not impossible.

I have been told that any HT/LT issues the car has will be amplified when running on LPG, that is because it needs a good spark, and that the plugs need changing every 10,000 miles, in addition dual tip plugs are better than the triple tipped ones

HTH  :y
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 01 April 2008, 20:30:01
Quote
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.Sounds like they are covering their back there

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.Wouldn't we all like that as an extra bit of business on top of doing a LPG conversion (that has the be a few hundred quids worth of work there)

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG. my engine ran at the same temp on LPG or petrol

Any views anyone ??

Highlighted......

yes with an LPG kit it is a little more awkward to work on some of the things they have mentioned, but not impossible.

I have been told that any HT/LT issues the car has will be amplified when running on LPG, that is because it needs a good spark, and that the plugs need changing every 10,000 miles, in addition dual tip plugs are better than the triple tipped onesHTH  :y

Agree  :y
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: MartinP on 01 April 2008, 20:51:30
Quote
Quote
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.Sounds like they are covering their back there

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.Wouldn't we all like that as an extra bit of business on top of doing a LPG conversion (that has the be a few hundred quids worth of work there)

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG. my engine ran at the same temp on LPG or petrol

Any views anyone ??

Highlighted......

yes with an LPG kit it is a little more awkward to work on some of the things they have mentioned, but not impossible.

I have been told that any HT/LT issues the car has will be amplified when running on LPG, that is because it needs a good spark, and that the plugs need changing every 10,000 miles, in addition dual tip plugs are better than the triple tipped onesHTH  :y

Agree  :y


And me  :y

Mine did over 130k on LPG.

Only problems were with plugs & leads causing the bellows to "give way"  ;D
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Jay w on 01 April 2008, 20:57:34
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.Sounds like they are covering their back there

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.Wouldn't we all like that as an extra bit of business on top of doing a LPG conversion (that has the be a few hundred quids worth of work there)

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG. my engine ran at the same temp on LPG or petrol

Any views anyone ??

Highlighted......

yes with an LPG kit it is a little more awkward to work on some of the things they have mentioned, but not impossible.

I have been told that any HT/LT issues the car has will be amplified when running on LPG, that is because it needs a good spark, and that the plugs need changing every 10,000 miles, in addition dual tip plugs are better than the triple tipped onesHTH  :y

Agree  :y


And me  :y

Mine did over 130k on LPG.

Only problems were with plugs & leads causing the bellows to "give way"  ;D

under pressure by any chance  ;D ;D
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Entwood on 01 April 2008, 21:53:56
Thanks for all the replies .. useful info  :)

To put the record straight, the guy wasn't talking about him doing the work, when I asked if the LPG install prevented any such work, or made it harder, we started to chat about the jobs I did on the old beast. It was then he advised ME to do those jobs before an LPG install,  so he wasn't trying to make a fast buck ... he even advised me regarding Bosch leads, Bosch CPP, and NGK spark plugs. I was just wondering if you experts agreed.

I was concerned about the 50K comment as so many folks here have LPG.. seems he may be being "protective".

This guy is offering a 100ltr tank, BRC system, 2 year warranty, courtesy car, free 1000 mile check for £1850+VAT, and comes with high recomendation from 2 sources known to me, one a Disco, one a Rangy ... he says he's done one 3.2 and "several" 2.5's. for the BRC system he is £400 cheaper than the nearest.

Opinions anyone ??
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 01 April 2008, 22:08:59
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.
I've heard this about Ford V6s but never the GM V6. Plenty of evidence to the contrary amongst our members. :-/
Quote
2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.
@rse covering, I reckon. He knows that if these fail during the warranty on the conversion you may be back to him because the LPG system has been disturbed by some muppet and doesn't work any more. It's fair to say that the HT system needs to be in good condition and it would look bad on him if the LPG conversion didn't go well due to the plugs / leads being old, or if he later tells you you need to splash out to replace them etc. For a DIY install, I'd probably see how it goes, but replace the plugs if they've got significant mileage on them.
Quote
3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG.
Rubbish. Engine temperature is determined by the thermostat. As said, all ignition components have a harder time on LPG so if a part is failing anyway it might fail shortly after conversion but heat's got nothing to do with it. I'll be surprised if their life is so significantly reduced.
Quote
Any views anyone ??

Kevin
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Kevin Wood on 01 April 2008, 22:24:47
Following up on no. 1.

It's entirely possible that if an LPG system has not been correctly tuned and the fuelling is too lean, and you then hoof it, you could burn out a piston or valve. Maybe this is
@rse covering too. :-/

Kevin
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Martin_1962 on 01 April 2008, 22:44:00
I use NGK plugs

As to the quote for BRC and 100l tank - sounds quite good - where are they based?
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Elite Pete on 02 April 2008, 09:41:35
Quote
Was speaking to a company this afternoon regarding their quote etc etc, the guy had a few things to say that I'd like others opinions on ... :)

1. Omega V6 engine can be "fragile" when converted to LPG, it can fail for piston/valve burnout after 30-50,000 miles.

2. He recommends the thermostat/cam cover gaskets/HBV/HT leads/CPP units and spark plugs are all replaced before hand to avoid having to disturb the LPG fit.

3. CPP units will probably only last 25000 miles on LPG as they overheat due to the engine running hotter on LPG.

Any views anyone ??
My first Omega was a 96 2.5 CD Estate which had covered 250,000 miles, 180,000 of which was on a single point LPG system and it never let me down :y
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Lazydocker on 02 April 2008, 20:42:36
Definately use ngk plugs... And don't get talked into buying the posh ones... You'll still need to replace them just bp often! As for temperature... The engine bay may get slightly warmer because the exhaust gasses will be slightly hotter but not really anything to worry about.

That's my experience anyway from running my v8 rangey on lpg for 40k with very few issues! Just keep on top of ignition system components!
Title: Re: LPG (again)
Post by: Entwood on 02 April 2008, 20:52:15
@Martin

This is the CLS Dual Fuel group,

http://www.agpl.co.uk

the guy I'm talking to is Alresford, Hampshire

http://www.amsautogas.com/index.htm

To everyone else .. thanks for the comments .. appreciated  :)