Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Entwood on 22 April 2012, 20:57:11
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On the way back from the weekend away the car has developed a "speed variable" whiney type noise that we think comes from the rear nearside. By the time we'd put the tin tent away, unpacked and had dinner it is now too dark to do anything practicable....
I know it could be lots of things but it "sounds" like bearing starting to breakup so ....
Easiest way of checking rear wheel bearings ?? The noise only changes with speed....... braking - both footbrake and light handbrake - and/or cornering does not change the noise at all.
How easy to change ?? There's a guide for the fronts but not the rears ... is Haynes book of lies sufficient ???
Any advice gratefully accepted
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No experience with rear wheel baring E, and I hope I never encounter the problem.
But just wondering what sort of miles your on?
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No experience with rear wheel baring E, and I hope I never encounter the problem.
But just wondering what sort of miles your on?
115,000
It might not be a bearing I suppose, stone caught by the disk ?? Shield dragging on the disk ?? Diff ?? (I hope not) .. but definately a speed and therefore a rotational whine... :(
:)
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Would tend to lean towards dif issue maybe.
But I guess a jack up and wheel wiggle in the morning will tell...?
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Would tend to lean towards dif issue maybe.
But I guess a jack up and wheel wiggle in the morning will tell...?
Unable to do owt until Tuesday evening at the earliest ... :(
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did you try pull to left or right when drive at speed?? see if noise stop
IHMO dont think its diff
have look here for wheel bearing change , on omega its same work
http://www.lotuscarlton.co.uk/rbearings.htm
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did you try pull to left or right when drive at speed?? see if noise stop
IHMO dont think its diff
have look here for wheel bearing change , on omega its same work
http://www.lotuscarlton.co.uk/rbearings.htm
Yup .. no difference at all.
Thanks for the link .... but that looks completely beyond my abilities !!! :(
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have you ever check diff oil?? any leak from this area??
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have you ever check diff oil?? any leak from this area??
Diff oil was checked at Gaffers first meet .. when the pinion seal (?) or whatever it is called .. the seal from the propshaft into the diff .... was replaced due to a small seep.
Not looked under there recently for any new leaks
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Had O/S rear bearing go last year.
It was diagnosed by driving at a constant 40 mph and gently turning steering wheel from right to left in effect causing the laod to be put on each side in turn .In a straight line noise was like a low whine and when transfered load it could be eliminated or made worse.
Not sure how else it could be tested as needed reasonable speed/rotation to produce noise.
As it required a lot of stripping down and a fairly hefty press to remove and replace decided to give car to my friendly mechanic who agreed a 4 hour fixed labour charge to replace the genuine £40=00 VX bearing.
When I collected the car later that day he swore it was the worst job he had ever taken on any car and said he would have charged me twice what he had agreed to do the job.
If it is a rear wheel bearing I would suggest getting somebody else to do the work and agree a price first !!
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Had O/S rear bearing go last year.
It was diagnosed by driving at a constant 40 mph and gently turning steering wheel from right to left in effect causing the laod to be put on each side in turn .In a straight line noise was like a low whine and when transfered load it could be eliminated or made worse.
Not sure how else it could be tested as needed reasonable speed/rotation to produce noise.
As it required a lot of stripping down and a fairly hefty press to remove and replace decided to give car to my friendly mechanic who agreed a 4 hour fixed labour charge to replace the genuine £40=00 VX bearing.
When I collected the car later that day he swore it was the worst job he had ever taken on any car and said he would have charged me twice what he had agreed to do the job.
If it is a rear wheel bearing I would suggest getting somebody else to do the work and agree a price first !!
Thanks for that ... couldn't do too much side-to-side activity as the tin tent was on the back and I didn't want to do anything stupid !! but I'll try that idea as soon as possible.
Having read the link posted there is no way I'll be doing this, so your suggestion will be followed up ... I just need to find a competent mug cheap mechanic ...... :(
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That was my plan...get a "fixed price" and if less than 3 hours accept it as my guy took 2.5 hours just to get the old bearing out and new one in thats not taking into account all the rear end strip down.
Never had a peep from it since so was money well spent ;D
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Given past posts, it was mentioned it might be better to replace the whole arm, with known good baring attached.
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Some have play some don't. Some just drone driving, noise getting worse when turning and "loading" the faylty side. Usual reason is that water gets in the bearing making inner parts rust and water does wear marks on bearing components. Have had two with noise and no play, both have had water and rust inside. Probably due high pressure wash or something. Also the inside of bearing is poorly covered.
Having replaced now four rw bearings (two water ruined, one worn, one pattern fitted which lasted 3 months) have found out following:
- it is BEST to remove the whole arm from the start. You will have better access to it and in case old one is really stuck you can put it in a press
- get some M12x1,5 threaded bars, 2x500 mm pieces will do. These are used to pull out the hub.
- get a pipe which inner dia is a bit bigger than bearing outer dia. Also some very thick and strong washers/steel plate is needed
- do not everm, never, in any circumstances use any other bearing than a known good wordwide brands. I have learned I will ever put anything else than FAG in. Patterns have play from new, seems the inner races contact and therefore remains the play
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I have done about 5 or 6 now.
The only one I had an issue with was on Jimbobs and I suspect I could do it in situ given what I have learn't since. I seem to recall that the one I did for him snce (was it Jimbob?) went much smoother!
Its a medium to hard job, requires stripdown of the rear brakes and the drive shaft disconnecting. The last one I did took about 1.5 hours.
Heat is the get out of jail for this job and putting the bearing in the freezer for 24 hours is important to. Also the use of various drifts, big hammers and potentialy an angle grinder (to help fracture the inner race once the outer stub is removed)
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I have always managed the inner race from axle with a puller and never had problems.
Outer from hub has been a struggle in some cases but a sef-made puller (threaded bar, nuts, spacers and a pipe) have always done the job.
Heat and freezer are essential in assembly. Hot hub and cold bearing, then some time to settle, heat (reasonably!) to bearing and frozen axle in. AND, while the axle is still cold, the inside flange (the one where drive shaft bolts to) hot: this is essential because the splines are very tight and you will face problems tightening it :y
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Yes, youve done 2 for me...
1st a nightmare
2nd, hard, but much easier in comparison
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I have a similar problem on the rear left side with my pre-facelift omega. :'(
Also a sound/noise starts @ 40km/h and is speed-variable and this sound/noise is sometimes stronger sometimes not.
But the sound is not a whine, but a little bit different its like a "Ding Ding". Also with the sound/noise comes a vibration.
When I do a corner to the right the sound and vibration is getting stronger.
A couple month ago when I was driving to a gas station something broke or similar, because I heard strange tyre squeal (but tyre has not blocked) (Hand Brake Pads? ??? ?)
So I think there might be a problem with a Diff (when I checked it has a old grease spot on the left side) or it might be with a rear bearing..... ?
But if there was a problem with a Diff I think it was a constant sound/noise/vibration ?
Any Ideas fellaz ? :y ;)
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Helped Johnnycboy do one on his estate last autumn... As Mark said, they can be done in situ (we did) but it can be a right PITA. Heat, freezer and angle grinder all used as required ;)
Not something I'd rush to do again, but could if the need arose ::)
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O is this my problem I have the same whine and have assumed it to be a front bearing.If it is the back it will certainly be a pros job .Is there anyway to check if front or back, car has done 70,000 mls could it be something else. If run on a rolling road can one wheel at a time be driven to identify which bearing it might be
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mmm much of the above is "bad news" to me ... I have limited ability with spanners, certainly no "heat" or angle grinder, although I could hire one of them in, and no pullers ..... :(
My "plan of attack" at the moment is to jack it up and check the diff for leaks, if none obvious I'll try and feel for play, if none present then check the disk/brakes/shield, if nothing found then I'll go for the handbrake shoes/pins etc.
If that fails to find/ solve the problem I'll be offering to pay one of the OOFers who knows what they are doing to try and diagnose it to either bearing or diff .. as there's not much rotational stuff left ... and to change whichever it is... if its the diff I'll have to get one from a breaker first.
I know when I've reached the limits of my ability .. and diff change / bearing change is beyond that ... so... if anyone can see a period ahead when they have the time and inclination to take some beer tokens of me .. please check your diaries !!!
Due to other things going on I won't be able to look at the brakes side of things until Thursday now ... :(... at least I catch the bus to work so I won't be making it any worse !!!
:(
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Todays story ... so far....
Jacked up left side and axle standed. wiggle wheel at all clock points .. no play felt. Spin wheel by hand - definite "rubbing" noise
Remove wheel, go to remove pads, find rear brake piston/pads totally seized .. how it passed an MOT 3 months ago I have no idea. Remove caliper in total to clean.
Rear of disc has the usual corrosion lip, seem a lot worse, so remove as much as possible.
Run in drive at tickover and have a good listen using the old "screwdriver in the ear" trick.
No noises from diff at all... although obviously only one side is spinning.
definite "shush, shush, shush" noise from the slowly spinning left rear wheel, so the problem is probably in there, unless running with the suspension at its lowest point and the drive shaft at an unusual angle could cause this ??
Next step is to remove disc/drum and ensure no corrosion/rubbing in there .. which would leave just the bearing...... but I cannot get the drum to shift, nor can I get any "feel" at this supposed "starwheel" that a screwdriver rotates... :( The wheel spins freely so the shoes should not be in contact with the drum anyway ??
and it is now persisting down.....
Any thoughts from anyone before I go on my knees before the Master ?? :)
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Doesn't matter what I try so far, disc/hub does not want to shift.
From the guide ...
If the disc is stuck to the hub, first clean the hub with emery to remove any surface rust. Then tap the drum section of the disc gently whilst rotating the disc until it comes free.
yeah ... right ... :(
:(
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Don't know if this counts as progress or not ....
Handbrake cable disconnected from rear lever, much banging and thumping, disc now spins on drum but will not pull off, feels like it is catching internally.. my guess the shoes are caught on a lip ??
Star wheel adjuster does not move in either direction, screwdriver pressure just lifts or lowers it.
Any thoughts please ??
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Thats where I got to when last changed my rear discs.
Ended up bashing like hell to get the disc off as it had got caught by the lip created by the hand brake shoes albut falling apart.The discs did come off so ened up replacing the hand brake shoes as well but they were only £15 for the set so atleast I then knew they were fine
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Right .. progress.. of a sort ... eventually got the star wheel to turn .. what I thought I was lifting was in fact the spring !!! ... Seems to get in the way !!! .. also old age eyes don't help when peering through small holes with a torch !!
Disc/drum off, nothing apparently broken, run in drive and as soon as you get above 1000 rpm the "shush shush shush" noise starts again.
So unless my hearing is as bad as my eyes (and after 40 years in aviation my ears are shot !!) My guess is the wheel bearing, nothing else I can think of really, I've not heard of anyone having a drive shaft problem.
I now intend to put it all back together and hope it is no worse, then I'll PM the MASTER and see if he is able to help, failing that, does anyone else have the time, knowledge and tools to do this job in a day ?? and preferably either next Thursday, Friday , Saturday or Sunday ??
More than happy to travel and will obviously pay for the work, not after a "freebie" of any description, just want the job done properly the first (and only) time !!!
so The Master and Daz .. PM's inbound .. but if anyone else wishes to earn some beer tokens .....
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If you want to rule out 'driveshaft at an odd angle' as a potential cause .. then a block of wood & jack under the wishbone/arm/spring cup (etc) and push it up to somewhere around normal. Just in case..
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Yeh, I will do it for you.
Would need to try to find a convenient time and I may do it at the railway in one of the sheds :y
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Cheers Mark, Chris typing, Nige mucky! Any Thursday would be good but will flexible to fit around you. Many thanks :)
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Cant do Thursdays but have keys the heritage centre and permission to use it :y
Would have to be an evening or a Sat morning?
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As I don't get home from work until 17:30 Mon-Wed ... and you're Nottingham if memory serves.. so 2 hours away .. I wouldn't get to you until 1930 at the earliest mon-wed, other days I can be there whenever.
You are doing me the favour so I'll fit around you!!
Reading your "previous" the bearing needs to be "frozen" for 24 hours ... it'll warm up somewhat in 2 hours, so would you be able to get it and freeze it ?? I'll happily paypal the money up front.
Appreciate the help :y :y :y
EDIT : Just finished putting it all back together and done a short run .. noise is the same.. no better or worse.. :( (although the brakes seem to be better.. perhaps I need to strip down the offside as well .. when it stops raining !!)
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OFF TOPIC
So it seems that omegas has 2 or more phantoms....
1. sunroof
2. strange noise on the back of the car...
:D
Still, I'm waiting for my holidays and then I plan to inspect my "ding ding" sound/noise deeper :(
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if your happy to go to nottingham then fair enough, however if you want to take a trip to trowbridge at 5.00 pm today clutching a wheel brg then i will waz it in for you. :y
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if your happy to go to nottingham then fair enough, however if you want to take a trip to trowbridge at 5.00 pm today clutching a wheel brg then i will waz it in for you. :y
That's a fantastic offer :)... As soon as Skurrays answer the phone I'll find out if they have a bearing in stock and let you know !! I'll PM you my phone number in case you want to chat.
Very, Very grateful .. and the Master might be pleased as well :)
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PM sent... no bearing in Swindon but apparently one in Trowbridge .. has been reserved in my name, so hopefully will pick it up on the way to you.
Very much appreciate the help :y :y :y
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Might be worth discussing replacing the other side sassanach, to be safe? :-\
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Might be worth discussing replacing the other side sassanach, to be safe? :-\
Contact made with Sassanach ... job being done tonight.
Regarding doing both .. no bearing in Swindon .. just ONE at Trowbridge (hopefully with my name now on it) ... so there is a "limiting factor" as Sassanach puts it .. :)
Many thanks to all :)
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Some pictures of the "proceedure " would be very usefull for others if that is possible ?
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Some pictures of the "proceedure " would be very usefull for others if that is possible ?
I'll take a camera ... :) Might as well try and be useful !!
:)
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Just to add the bearings are different the estate one is slightly bigger. :-\
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First of all MEGA thanks to Sassenach for his time and skills this evening.
He disconnected drive shaft, removed caliper, removed disk/drum, then confirmed that there was a nasty noise from the wheel bearing. With a suitable selection of some odd looking, but extremely effective, home made drifts, pullers and the most amazing "slide hammer", the old bearing was out.
New one in, again with a selection of drifts and threaded rods and nuts to pull it in. Disc/drum onto the lathe to remove the corrosion around the lip, and all reassembled ... total time .. 1 hour 40 minutes and that included fetching various tools from around the workshop and the lathe time.
And then he refused to take anything for doing the job, and he's not a man to argue with when he says no........
So, once again, a HUGE thanks. I did take a few photo's that I'll put up later, but nowt like a "how to" as no-one would have the tools and bits and pieces he has !!!
Now the bad news........
The car was lovely and quiet for about 5 miles, then the noise started again, going from "faint" to just as noisy as before in about 2 more miles... :(
From the drivers seat it still sounds like its from the left rear, it starts at about 20 mph, braking/steering makes no difference.... I might be fooling myself but I'm starting to think that it is less noisy on overrun/very light throttle than it is when under power.
So what could it be ?? The only rotating things left are the drive shaft or the diff ... :(
Really hacked off now, especially as the old bearing WAS noisy once everything else was disconnected, so it needed changing... but obviously was not the reason for the noise. :(
Any how .... that does not detract from the excellent work of Sassenach.
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Next Q
Drive shafts and diff
Are they the same on a 2.6 as they are on the 3.2 ??
As Brikhead is breaking a 2.6 with a reconditioned diff
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=102211.0
I'm wondering ....... :(
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Fairly sure the diff is different :-\
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Fairly sure the diff is different :-\
Yep http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90453.0
All V6 driveshafts are the same
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Fairly sure the diff is different :-\
Yep http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90453.0
All V6 driveshafts are the same
Rollocks .. :(
Thanks for the info :y :y
Is it worth changing just the drive shafts ?? or do I try and find a diff and shafts together .... :(
or how do I diagnose one or t'other ... :(
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So sorry to hear all that effort may have not resolved the problem :-[
When mine was removed it sounded like nails in a tin when rotated and all noise was gone when replaced and driven and has been like that now for some 50k.
Silly question but I assume you have checked oil level in diff ? even though reading this post I see it has been replaced a while ago.
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Sorry - coming to this late.
Are you 100% sure its not the brake disk rubbing against the backing shield? That would've been my inital guess given the Shhh-Shhh noise. Bearings normally whine or grumble continuously IME. Your Shhh-Shhh nois suggests something lightly loaded rubbing due to run-out. If bent, things only have to move a few thou to stop/start rubbing. Taking the wheel off to investigate can allow things to move a few thou.
Another possibility is the drive shaft or driveshaft flange rubbing on something - most likely candidate is here is a brake pipe, so best check to be sure!
Also, whilst the rear disks were off, I'd have replaced them (and the handbrake shoes) with new. Disks are £60 a pair, and given the greif getting old ones off past the handbrake lip....
I agree with you on the handbrake adjuster wheel thing. One of the many carry-overs from the Carlton/Senator days, and it was a cr@p design then.
Cheers
Malcolm
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Hi.
Not been on here for a few weeks but reading this tonight and had the same symptons last year on my 2.5 estate.
Thinking the huming noise was coming from the left hand rear bearing bought a new one ready for fitting when after trying to get more advice from a number of people the conclusion was the rear diff might be going. Dont ask me how every body come to that because i cant remember.
Anyway, went and got a second hand diff delivered more in hope than expectation and got my mechanic to fit it and wow be tide it cured the problem, the silence was bliss.
Now you have a new bearing fitted it might be the diff after all, not saying it is though :).
Hope this might help in some way.
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Hi.
Not been on here for a few weeks but reading this tonight and had the same symptons last year on my 2.5 estate.
Thinking the huming noise was coming from the left hand rear bearing bought a new one ready for fitting when after trying to get more advice from a number of people the conclusion was the rear diff might be going. Dont ask me how every body come to that because i cant remember.
Anyway, went and got a second hand diff delivered more in hope than expectation and got my mechanic to fit it and wow be tide it cured the problem, the silence was bliss.
Now you have a new bearing fitted it might be the diff after all, not saying it is though :).
Hope this might help in some way.
Much internet research tonight makes me start to think the same ... so it looks like I need someone breaking either a 2.6 manual or a 3.2 auto to get the right diff. I'll probably take the drive shafts as well just in case.
Looking through the past adverts that looks highly unlikely :(
My present plan is to suck out as much fluid as I can from the diff and refill with new.. and see if that makes any difference. I don't hold out much hope but it might keep it going until a replacement diff comes along .. :(
Only good thing is that reading the guides/haynes it appears to be within my limited abilities....
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Hi.
Not been on here for a few weeks but reading this tonight and had the same symptons last year on my 2.5 estate.
Thinking the huming noise was coming from the left hand rear bearing bought a new one ready for fitting when after trying to get more advice from a number of people the conclusion was the rear diff might be going. Dont ask me how every body come to that because i cant remember.
Anyway, went and got a second hand diff delivered more in hope than expectation and got my mechanic to fit it and wow be tide it cured the problem, the silence was bliss.
Now you have a new bearing fitted it might be the diff after all, not saying it is though :).
Hope this might help in some way.
Much internet research tonight makes me start to think the same ... so it looks like I need someone breaking either a 2.6 manual or a 3.2 auto to get the right diff. I'll probably take the drive shafts as well just in case.
Looking through the past adverts that looks highly unlikely :(
My present plan is to suck out as much fluid as I can from the diff and refill with new.. and see if that makes any difference. I don't hold out much hope but it might keep it going until a replacement diff comes along .. :(
Only good thing is that reading the guides/haynes it appears to be within my limited abilities....
3.0 auto has the 3:9 diff as does the 3.2 auto
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Although if fitting a 2.6 dif, which will fit, it would give you better acceleration, making towing easier.
3.9 stock to 4.2 ....realistically though, it makes little odds tbh.
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Right... on with the saga ....
Had to tow the tin tent yesterday and today, and made the discovery that the noise, although still apparent is very much reduced whilst the van is attached. Take the van off the hitch and the noise is back loud again.
Now, even though I have self levelling suspension, I reckon there must be a difference in the alignement of the drive shafts when towing ?? They will be slightly "flatter" for want of a better description ?? Could it be that the UJ inside the drive shaft is the problem ??
I'm now very tempted to go for the drive shafts and diff from Robs 3.0 if still available and known to be good ....
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=102333.0
or the drive shafts off Brikheads 2.6
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=102211.0
Any thoughts from anyone ??
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Doesn't the 2.6 have a different ratio diff? :-\
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instead of replacing parts willy nilly,drag it back to riverway tomorrow night and lets hava a listen to this noise. :y
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Doesn't the 2.6 have a different ratio diff? :-\
Yup .. that's why just the drive shafts from the 2.6 .... :)
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instead of replacing parts willy nilly,drag it back to riverway tomorrow night and lets hava a listen to this noise. :y
That's a very kind offer :y :y but I wouldn't be able to get to your place before 18:30 at the earliest... :(
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fine.
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fine.
Very grateful .. :y
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i will see you tomorrow night and hopefully, we will get to the bottom of this. :y
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Doesn't the 2.6 have a different ratio diff? :-\
Yup .. that's why just the drive shafts from the 2.6 .... :)
Nige if it`s just a driveshaft/s think I`ve got 2 knocking around in the shed
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Doesn't the 2.6 have a different ratio diff? :-\
Yup .. that's why just the drive shafts from the 2.6 .... :)
Nige if it`s just a driveshaft/s think I`ve got 2 knocking around in the shed
Thanks for that ... lets see what Mr S makes of it tomorrow ..should have a better idea then. :-\ :-\
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The saga continues...
Went to see Mr S (again), he agreed the noise is not good, but despite taking various things off he cannot find anything that he thinks is making said noise .... :(
We now have the following noises...
At low speed, around 15-20 mph, a continuous mechanical grumble/grating both on light drive and over-run
at around 30 mph with light drive a continuous "shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" noise that stops on over-run
at 40-50 mph with light drive the "shhhhhhhhhhhhhh" is still there but a whine builds up
above 60 my high tone deaf ears no longer register it !!
Steering, both gentle and violent, makes no difference, nor does braking both heavy and light, applying handbrake both lightly and firmly changes nothing except the tone of the noise as the speed changes. I have even tried maintaining speed with power whilst applying brakes .. no apparent difference.
As previously stated, it seemed over the weekend that the noises were much reduced with the tin-tent on the back.
I have tried taking a sound recording with the phone, but until I work out how to get it off and uploaded I'm unsure how useful it may be.
Mr S is somewhat stumped and suggests that it will eventually get so bad the cause will be obvious ......... at which point I'll know what to change !!!!
Once again I must express my thanks to Mr S for spending 3 hours trying to find the cause, and refusing to take any recompense for his time.
Any ideas gratefully accepted...
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Does it change based on revs?
Torque converter? :-\
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Exhaust?
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Does it change based on revs?
Torque converter? :-\
Knock it into neutral and do what you like with the engine .. the noise is speed related NOT engine RPM related
try it in the different gears at the same speed, engine noise changes with rpm obviously , but the nasty noise is constant.
It really does seem to be totally rear drive train speed related
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Exhaust?
Mr S checked the exhaust for various noises/rubbing.... found nothing amiss .. and to be honest it is a "rotational" sound and far too "mechanical" to be a blow..... :(
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Ah, ok. Got another 3.9 dif here if you want to try a known good..? Trouble is I'll want it back at some point. :-\
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When it's popped in N, as I understand it that disconnects TC until put into a gear? Sound you describe is what I had a project what the TC was not pushed fully back.
It's unusual for a diff to go, although Bob Dents did fail. But recall him having mega big alloys which might have been a factor. Might be worth a call/Pm to him?
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Not a case of disconnecting each part, hub, drive shaft, dif, prop, back to the gear box until the noise stops...? Easy sitting here mind.
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Ah, ok. Got another 3.9 dif here if you want to try a known good..? Trouble is I'll want it back at some point. :-\
Mr S is not convinced its the diff or drive shafts, and thinks replacing could be a waste of money, however I'm tempted to buy the set from the 3.0 Rob is breaking in Bristol.
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Just a thought, but what about getting a tow? Disconnect the drive shaft and see if the noise is still present?
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Would you be able to identify the area any better if someone laid in the back with the sender cover plate removed. :-\ Road noise would probably block it out though. :-\ Probably already done this with sassanach.
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What's the input taper bearing into the diff like? (it's the bearing you need to take note of the pre-load if you change the diff input oil seal) :-\ :-\
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What's the input taper bearing into the diff like? (it's the bearing you need to take note of the pre-load if you change the diff input oil seal) :-\ :-\
I've no idea what it is like .. but 2Woody changed the diff input seal for me last year ....... do you think this could be related ???
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What's the input taper bearing into the diff like? (it's the bearing you need to take note of the pre-load if you change the diff input oil seal) :-\ :-\
I've no idea what it is like .. but 2Woody changed the diff input seal for me last year ....... do you think this could be related ???
The prop input to the diff on my Senator showed signs of a fubar'd bearing ie there was movement when you tried to move it. It showed as a slight whine on over run, but you could make it seem quiet by giving the car enough revs to balance between drive & over run. Nipping the bearing up seemed to fix it -
(you need proper 'rolling torque wrenches' to set up the preload correctly hence MarksDTM advise to mark up the lock nut so you can make a reasonable guess when re-loading the bearing.)
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Just a thought, but what about getting a tow? Disconnect the drive shaft and see if the noise is still present?
Been following this saga:
This is a sound idea Nige, and I'm with young Tunnie on this! ;)
(Borne out of bitter experience some years back whilst 'on the buses' - a mis-diagnosis had previously involved a diff-change which eventually revealed the fluid flywheel loose at the crankshaft!)
No tinker listened to this scribe's theory - the result was an immobilised bus/passengers with gallons of transmission fluid spewed over a busy road junction, plus a grid-locked town centre in the evening rush hour.
Thank the Lord that I was on an early shift that day! ;D
If ya need a high-speed tow, send me a PM; as I'm off work next weekend, with nowt really planned (yet!).
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What's the input taper bearing into the diff like? (it's the bearing you need to take note of the pre-load if you change the diff input oil seal) :-\ :-\
I've no idea what it is like .. but 2Woody changed the diff input seal for me last year ....... do you think this could be related ???
..and I remember when we took the old seal out, that the pinion nut had worked loose. :o Maybe the bearing's fate had been sealed then?
Failing that, driveshaft or prop centre bearing perhaps?
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Could you not run the wheels unloaded? Ie rear end on axle stands put it in drive and have a listen under the car. Doing this you may be able to locate the noise. If you also pull the hand brake cable on each side in turn you may be able to work out what side the noise is coming from, if you still get it when each side is locked then it narrows it down to diff or gearbox.
Lee
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What's the input taper bearing into the diff like? (it's the bearing you need to take note of the pre-load if you change the diff input oil seal) :-\ :-\
I've no idea what it is like .. but 2Woody changed the diff input seal for me last year ....... do you think this could be related ???
..and I remember when we took the old seal out, that the pinion nut had worked loose. :o Maybe the bearing's fate had been sealed then?
Failing that, driveshaft or prop centre bearing perhaps?
I had the same thought about the centre bearing, had one go on a Ford and it took ages to find the problem!
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Could you not run the wheels unloaded? Ie rear end on axle stands put it in drive and have a listen under the car. Doing this you may be able to locate the noise. If you also pull the hand brake cable on each side in turn you may be able to work out what side the noise is coming from, if you still get it when each side is locked then it narrows it down to diff or gearbox.
Lee
Yep, good point. A little braking on one side will stop that side and transfer the torque to the other side. If it's a noisy lobro joint it'll help diagnose it.
.. and that might tie up with the reduced noise with the burger-van on the back, as the angle of the joints will change with loading.
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Thanks for all the ideas ... keep 'em coming !!!! :)
Mr S checked the diff oil level and played with the prop shaft, he couldn't feel any slack/play ... but that doesn't mean the input bearing is good I suppose... :(
Due to other commitments I'll not be able to do anything until a week Thursday, which will actually support Mr S's idea of driving it until it gets worse and REALLY tells me where the problem is !!
On that Thursday I plan to do the following..... until I find some answers ..hopefully
Swap tyres front to rear - Mr S's idea
Jack the back end up on axle stands and run with both wheels off the ground - Lee's idea
Use handbrake cable to stop each wheel in turn - Lee's idea
Use the trolley jack on each suspension point to raise/lower the wheel whilst it is turning - Kevin's idea (ish)
If all that achieves nowt I'm thinking of removing the drive shafts and then running it again to try and check out the diff alone ??
Trouble with all the above is that it will all be done under "no load" conditions so may prove nothing..... :(
In the mean time I'm tempted to ask Rob to remove the diff and drive shafts from the 3.0 and sell them to me. I then have them if needed, if it turns out to be something else I just keep them as spares.
Puzzled of Wiltshire ... :)
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Have you ruled out tyres, any different with a load in the rear?
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Is it ok to run the back wheels with the back jacked up I have heard that damage can be done to the drive shaft or diff bearings
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Have you ruled out tyres, any different with a load in the rear?
Mr S has suggested swapping the wheels around to see if the noise moves, I plan to do that and to try the spare on each side to see if it makes any difference.
With the tin-tent on the back the noise is reduced but does not stop
:(
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Is it ok to run the back wheels with the back jacked up I have heard that damage can be done to the drive shaft or diff bearings
mmmm not heard of that before ....... :(
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Is it ok to run the back wheels with the back jacked up I have heard that damage can be done to the drive shaft or diff bearings
mmmm not heard of that before ....... :(
I've heard the same, someone here said a few years back that it should not be done as the drive shaft joints come to a very "uncomfortable" position as they "hang".
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Is it ok to run the back wheels with the back jacked up I have heard that damage can be done to the drive shaft or diff bearings
mmmm not heard of that before ....... :(
I've heard the same, someone here said a few years back that it should not be done as the drive shaft joints come to a very "uncomfortable" position as they "hang".
If the car is jacked at the rear of the trailing arms it should keep the angles close to what they are on the ground but If jacked and allowed to hang I agree that drive joint chatter could be present.
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Any resolution yet Nige :-\
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Any resolution yet Nige :-\
Nah .. weather has been too bad to get anywhere near it ..... There is now an exceedingly marked difference between solo and towing.
My plan, if the weather allows tomorrow is to jack the back end up and place on axle stands, then to use bottle jacks under the rear shock absorber lower mounts to raise the wheels until they are as near normal as possible, then run the car in gear and try and identify the source of the 'orrible noises.
Once that's done I expect I'll be contacting you for the diff and drive shafts as I'm slowly getting convinced thats the only way to fix the problem...... :(
Just hope for some decent weather tomorrow !!!
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Nige, I'm about this weekend if you want to try Tunnie's tow idea. :y
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Nige, I'm about this weekend if you want to try Tunnie's tow idea. :y
Thanks for the offer ... :) I'm still in two minds on that idea......
Disconnecting the drive shafts at the wheels will prove no more than what Bill did in Trowbridge, as he disconnected them with the wheels in the air and we spun the wheels manually. Slight backplate rub but nowhere near the noise I get.
Disconnecting prop shaft ... mmmmmm .. the diff/drive shafts would still be turning .. so all it would rule out is gearbox/centre drive shaft bearing .. and the noise is definitly "back end"
I know that "changing on speculation" is not a good idea, but I'm sorely tempted to drop down to Bristol and buy Rob's driveshafts/diff, then to swap the drive shafts and see what happens. It is the easiest (mechanicaly) option .. :(
A lot will depend on what I see/hear tomorrow ... forecast looks reasonable ... :y :y
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Right , up in the air, both wheels raised to the "normal" driving position by jacking under the shock absorber... run at tick over with the wheels off .... diff definitely making grumbling noise, pull on either handbrake cable to stop that wheel, no change to noise, pull both and stop both wheels but propshaft still spinning ... noise stops.
Not in any position to do it at any faster than tickover as SWTSMBO has gone out, but it looks/sounds like a diff change now.
I'm going to attempt to film/record on the phone and see if I can get it on utube, so you all can listen ......
But if Rob reads this you have a PM .... :)
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Can't set cruise? Bit dodgy mind. Hope the car is aimed at a field? ;D
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Pointed at the garage door with me under it !! Set cruise ..... Not likely dear boy ..... :)
Okies .. I've gone a bit further and removed the calipers/rear discs to eliminate any rubbing of brakes etc ... although I can longer stop each wheel in turn the noise is most certainly from the diff ... a continuous low frequency noise that is more than a "rumble" but not quite a "graunch".
Phone idea is not working... sounds totaly different on the phone and the guy next door is cutting his hedge, phone picks that high pitched noise up very well !!
EDIT : Further to my above post .... should the prop shaft continue to spin with both wheels stopped using the handbrake cables ??? Something in my tiny brain says that with both wheels stopped the diff should not turn at all and the "idle" occurs in the gearbox ??? or am I going daft as well as stupid ??
FURTHER EDIT : Turning each drift shaft by hand, propshaft stationary, obviously the opposite shaft rotates in the wrong direction, but there is a definite "notchiness" .. don't know if that is normal or not ?? turning propshaft by hand there is a small amount of play.. about 1/4 " as the drive is taken up and again, a "notchiness" as it turns.
I know so little about diffs these may be normal for a slowly rotating diff .. but I stick the info up for advice.
I'll go and have lunch/sort out the greenhouse before I reassemble in case anyone has any ideas of what else to check !!
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You gonna be able to fit it OK Nige :-\
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You gonna be able to fit it OK Nige :-\
I'll have to be !!!! Looks doable on the ramp, I can get the back end quite high and can get to all the bolts I think I need to see, as long as the halfords pro set has all the right bits .... The only part that I'm a tad concerned about is removing the inner drive shaft ... "lever out" [Haynes] gives little guidance .... :)
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Sounds quite conclusive as a diff fault to me :-\
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Sounds quite conclusive as a diff fault to me :-\
My guess as well ..:(
I think I'll put it all back together and await a call from Rob to arrange to swap beer tokens for his diff/drive shafts. If it gives up the ghost on the way to Bristol and back then Green Flag will have to bring me home ... :) I'm assuming a diff and 2 shafts will fit in the boot .... :)
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You gonna be able to fit it OK Nige :-\
I'll have to be !!!! Looks doable on the ramp, I can get the back end quite high and can get to all the bolts I think I need to see, as long as the halfords pro set has all the right bits .... The only part that I'm a tad concerned about is removing the inner drive shaft ... "lever out" [Haynes] gives little guidance .... :)
Don`t mind delivering and assisting with removal/fitting Nige, beer tokens (or in my case, coffee tokens ;D) just to cover fuel. :)
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You gonna be able to fit it OK Nige :-\
I'll have to be !!!! Looks doable on the ramp, I can get the back end quite high and can get to all the bolts I think I need to see, as long as the halfords pro set has all the right bits .... The only part that I'm a tad concerned about is removing the inner drive shaft ... "lever out" [Haynes] gives little guidance .... :)
Don`t mind delivering and assisting with removal/fitting Nige, beer tokens (or in my case, coffee tokens ;D) just to cover fuel. :)
Just off the phone to Rob.... the very, very nice man is delivering the items tomorrow and supervising my attempt to change it all !! I dare say the comment .. "no you ****, you don't do it like that" ... will feature in any conversation !!!
With any luck we'll be posting up a success story tomorrow afternoon .. :y :y :y
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You gonna be able to fit it OK Nige :-\
I'll have to be !!!! Looks doable on the ramp, I can get the back end quite high and can get to all the bolts I think I need to see, as long as the halfords pro set has all the right bits .... The only part that I'm a tad concerned about is removing the inner drive shaft ... "lever out" [Haynes] gives little guidance .... :)
Don`t mind delivering and assisting with removal/fitting Nige, beer tokens (or in my case, coffee tokens ;D) just to cover fuel. :)
Just off the phone to Rob.... the very, very nice man is delivering the items tomorrow and supervising my attempt to change it all !! I dare say the comment .. "no you ****, you don't do it like that" ... will feature in any conversation !!!
With any luck we'll be posting up a success story tomorrow afternoon .. :y :y :y
Late morning hopefully
(http://forums.floridasportsman.com/images/smilies/fingers-crossed-emoticon.gif)
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....
EDIT : Further to my above post .... should the prop shaft continue to spin with both wheels stopped using the handbrake cables ??? Something in my tiny brain says that with both wheels stopped the diff should not turn at all and the "idle" occurs in the gearbox ??? or am I going daft as well as stupid ??
.......
I did wonder at that when I read it above. Your prop should be stationary if your back wheels are stationary :y
Decline to comment re you being stupid or daft though ::) ::)
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Right then ..
Situation right now ...
Car well high in the air.
Both drive shafts off
Self levelling suspension sensor removed and tied back
ABS sensors out
3 Large (T20) torqx bolts loosened
2 large nuts at the top/back of the diff loosened
Prop shaft bolts removed, but I can't get the propshaft to come off .. it moves forward but not far enough, I've even tried it with all 6 bolts out and the flexible joint completely loose !! does it need a tyre lever in there or should hand pressure (all I've tried) be enough ??
As far as I can tell it is very nearly ready to come out ....... hopefully this work has saved some time in the morning .. :)
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Right then .. Please Mr Rob, do NOT make an excuse and fail to arrive .. :) 'cos I'll be in deep doodoo....... :)
Situation right now ...
Car well high in the air.
Both drive shafts off
Self levelling suspension sensor removed and tied back
ABS sensors out
3 Large (T20) torqx bolts loosened
2 large nuts at the top/back of the diff loosened
Prop shaft bolts removed, but I can't get the propshaft to come off .. it moves forward but not far enough, I've even tried it with all 6 bolts out and the flexible joint completely loose !! does it need a tyre lever in there or should hand pressure (all I've tried) be enough ??
As far as I can tell it is very nearly ready to come out ....... hopefully this work has saved some time in the morning .. :)
Right, I`ll see you next week then Nige ;D ;D ;D
Only the 3 bolts at prop to remove, can always separate prop when diff is being lowered
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Let me know if you need a third
expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
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Diff is OFF ..... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Need to rethink the lowering/raising method .. car is so high my trolley jack wouldn't reach, so I put some blocks of wood between it and the diff ....... needless to say, halfway through lowering it, the damn thing fell off, and like a numpty I attempted to catch it one handed .... :( fingers is bruised and a tad sore but nowt broken .. :)
Let me know if you need a third expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
If you want to come and heckle/drink coffee/get dirty/do the job ( :) ) you're more than welcome :y :y
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Diff is OFF ..... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Need to rethink the lowering/raising method .. car is so high my trolley jack wouldn't reach, so I put some blocks of wood between it and the diff ....... needless to say, halfway through lowering it, the damn thing fell off, and like a numpty I attempted to catch it one handed .... :( fingers is bruised and a tad sore but nowt broken .. :)
Let me know if you need a third expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
If you want to come and heckle/drink coffee/get dirty/do the job ( :) ) you're more than welcome :y :y
Thought you might have sussed that Nige ;D ;D ::)
Still have to twirl the spanners tomorrow :D ;D. Are we going to drain "my" diff and re-fill with fresh before fitting :-\
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Let me know if you need a third expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
He`s already got one delivering the diff so another won`t make any difference ;D ;D ;D
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Been following this post with interest.
Would be nice to see a few pictures of the removal and refitting as sure would be usefull for us "mere mortals" in case of future issues. :y
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Been following this post with interest.
Would be nice to see a few pictures of the removal and refitting as sure would be usefull for us "mere mortals" in case of future issues. :y
Only had those in my head. :D We`ll see what we can do tomorrow on fitting :)
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Diff is OFF ..... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Need to rethink the lowering/raising method .. car is so high my trolley jack wouldn't reach, so I put some blocks of wood between it and the diff ....... needless to say, halfway through lowering it, the damn thing fell off, and like a numpty I attempted to catch it one handed .... :( fingers is bruised and a tad sore but nowt broken .. :)
Let me know if you need a third expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
If you want to come and heckle/drink coffee/get dirty/do the job ( :) ) you're more than welcome :y :y
Thought you might have sussed that Nige ;D ;D ::)
Still have to twirl the spanners tomorrow :D ;D. Are we going to drain "my" diff and re-fill with fresh before fitting :-\
Haynes says if you drain and refill you need some special lubricant ?? But if you just top-up then any Hypoid gear oil SAE 90 will do. I'll pop out in the morning and get some of that from somewhere .. :) perhaps it might be best NOT to drain yours ???, as long as you can transport it without it leaking all over your motor !!! If thats the poblem then drain it .. we'll fill it with SAE 90 for now and I'll get some of the fancy stuff during the week
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Diff is OFF ..... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Need to rethink the lowering/raising method .. car is so high my trolley jack wouldn't reach, so I put some blocks of wood between it and the diff ....... needless to say, halfway through lowering it, the damn thing fell off, and like a numpty I attempted to catch it one handed .... :( fingers is bruised and a tad sore but nowt broken .. :)
Let me know if you need a third expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
If you want to come and heckle/drink coffee/get dirty/do the job ( :) ) you're more than welcome :y :y
Thought you might have sussed that Nige ;D ;D ::)
Still have to twirl the spanners tomorrow :D ;D. Are we going to drain "my" diff and re-fill with fresh before fitting :-\
Haynes says if you drain and refill you need some special lubricant ?? But if you just top-up then any Hypoid gear oil SAE 90 will do. I'll pop out in the morning and get some of that from somewhere .. :) perhaps it might be best NOT to drain yours ???, as long as you can transport it without it leaking all over your motor !!! If thats the poblem then drain it .. we'll fill it with SAE 90 for now and I'll get some of the fancy stuff during the week
BS ::) D/S apertures plugged with carrier bags, diff in black bag, driveshafts bagged up, in the boot ready to go
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Diff is OFF ..... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Need to rethink the lowering/raising method .. car is so high my trolley jack wouldn't reach, so I put some blocks of wood between it and the diff ....... needless to say, halfway through lowering it, the damn thing fell off, and like a numpty I attempted to catch it one handed .... :( fingers is bruised and a tad sore but nowt broken .. :)
Let me know if you need a third expert numpty to help tomorrow Nige :y
If you want to come and heckle/drink coffee/get dirty/do the job ( :) ) you're more than welcome :y :y
Thought you might have sussed that Nige ;D ;D ::)
Still have to twirl the spanners tomorrow :D ;D. Are we going to drain "my" diff and re-fill with fresh before fitting :-\
Haynes says if you drain and refill you need some special lubricant ?? But if you just top-up then any Hypoid gear oil SAE 90 will do. I'll pop out in the morning and get some of that from somewhere .. :) perhaps it might be best NOT to drain yours ???, as long as you can transport it without it leaking all over your motor !!! If thats the poblem then drain it .. we'll fill it with SAE 90 for now and I'll get some of the fancy stuff during the week
BS ::) D/S apertures plugged with carrier bags, diff in black bag, driveshafts bagged up, in the boot ready to go
Fair enough .. I'll pop out and get some SAE90 to top it up with anyway .. :)
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FWIW, clearly I'm late to the party here, but:
1) Yes, I'd have expected the input shaft to be stationary if you stopped the output shaft; the slip should happen in the torque convertor (assuming automatic) or the car stall (if manual)
2) Notchiness not normal - it should be buttery smooth IMHO. Even the 20y/o Jag diff I have in the shed is buttery smooth..
3) A little lash on the input shaft is normal, but 1/2" sounds excessive if measured at the prop shaft
4) Don't try and catch a falling diff! ;) But be thankful the Omega's is light .. I did the same thing last week with a Jag diff and that finger still isn't right... but then the diff alone weighs about 50Kg ;D
Good luck getting the new diff in :)
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Yes, hoping for a satisfactory outcome. :y
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Right :) The job is jobbed !!! :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
Many, many, HUGE thanks to Rob for driving up from Bristol with the bits, and staying to help replace them, and to Chris (Shackeng) for coming over to assist as well.
First thing we did was to compare turning the input shaft on Rob's diff and mine ... wow .. what a difference, his .. smooth and tightish , mine.... loose, noisy, & notchy.. sort of proved mines dead ... :(
With the three of us under the car we got the diff into position quite easily ..... All was going really, really well at 10:30, when we couldn't get the 3 T20 bolts into the side of the diff...... only to find that the threads are different on my diff and the replacement one !!! :(
We then discovered that the thread on the replacement is the same as the propshaft bolts, cue Chris driving us around Swindon (Halfords, B&Q - failed) until we found a tiny backstreet garage with a bucket of old bolts and found 3 that were almost right, just a wee tad too long. Back home cut one down, pack the other with washers and the third one is NOT a blind hole so it went in as-is !!!
Rest of the work went like a dream....
Took it for a test drive and YEAH .. my old silent Omega is returned to me ... no rumbling/graunching/grinding whatsoever ... :y :y :y :y :y
Not too happy with those bolts so if anyone has the correct 3 bolts for the diff, the ones that are the same thread as the propshaft bolts, I'd love to buy them off you :)
Once again though ... many thanks for all the helpful advice given here, and especial thanks to Rob & Chris :y :y :y :y :y
Now ... do I persaude Bill in Trowbridge to change the other wheel bearing ?? ...... if I do then the whole rear drive has been redone .. should last a few miles :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Good Job guys. :y
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Nice one , another mig sorted 8)
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Suggest you re-check diff oil level Nige. The rear end was quite high when I topped it up ;D ;D ::)
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Good result and pleased all is now restored. :y
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Suggest you re-check diff oil level Nige. The rear end was quite high when I topped it up ;D ;D ::)
Yup .. one of Thursday jobs ....
Check Torques of most of the bolts we did
Hopefully change the 3 "strange" bolts if someone can provide them
Check Diff level
Change centre arm rest
Fit new lock to passenger locker
Tidy boot
:)
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Glad to help Nige, and very glad its sorted. And I forgot the cam kit! I'll pick it up later. :y :y :y
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Right :) The job is jobbed !!! :y :y :y :y :y :y :y ......
A result!! :y :y :y
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Splendid news - well done to all concerned. 8) :y
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Has yours ever had the pinion seal replaced?
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Has yours ever had the pinion seal replaced?
Think 2Woody? done it at the Hampshire meet Mark http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=38139.0
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Has yours ever had the pinion seal replaced?
see reply #73 ;) should've been OK cos an expert fitted it! ::) ::)
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Has yours ever had the pinion seal replaced?
see reply #73 ;) should've been OK cos an expert fitted it! ::) ::)
But, referring to reply 76, the flange bolt had worked loose IIRC, so something odd was going on back then.
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Has yours ever had the pinion seal replaced?
see reply #73 ;) should've been OK cos an expert fitted it! ::) ::)
But, referring to reply 76, the flange bolt had worked loose IIRC, so something odd was going on back then.
Why let the truth get in the way of a good story? ::) ::) ::)
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Ok, so the reference was already lost.
That is key as there is only one useable method for seal replacement e.g. the mark and re-fit approach.
The torque method (which is diffcult to do) can only realy be applied when fitting a new bearing.
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oooh!!! hang on to the old diff mr entwood,we gotta rip that apart for e shufti. :y
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Ok, so the reference was already lost.
That is key as there is only one useable method for seal replacement e.g. the mark and re-fit approach.
The torque method (which is diffcult to do) can only realy be applied when fitting a new bearing.
Nige pointed out that 2Woody had to guestimate the setting because of this. :(