Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Big_Al on 03 June 2012, 16:35:25
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My sister rang today saying that after 30 years of driving she was finally pulled over by traffic police last night. she had arranged to go & collect 3 girl friends from a night out in Chelmsford. She lives there.
After picking them up & pulling away she was she was straight away "Blue lighted " & stopped. They breath tested her , zero alcohol, so then proceeded to give the car a good look over. They found a main beam light blown and gave a fixed penalty notice :o :o :o
They said you should not use the car with a light out :o :o :o fair enough if you know it's out . . but if a bulb blows are you supposed to stop the car & leave it there until daylight & then get it repaired ? surely not . . especially lone females >:( >:(
Anyone comment on this or had similar .
Last line . . . my sister would not drive her car if she knowingly had a dashboard light out ;D ;D ;D let alone a headlight !!!
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Going on what you have written I am disgusted, but not surprised in the slightest. The modern police are doing there utmost to alienate the general public. I wonder if they where trying for drink driving and where annoyed they did not get it, so "had" to find something wrong.
I wonder how some of these guys sleep at night. Probably very well on there inflated salaries.
Couple of points, was it in town, and did her journey take her on roads that required main beam ? if not I would be complaining. She could argue it would be dangerous to test main beam headlights in town/city before driving off. That said does the car have bulb failure system ? was there a warning on the dash.
Even the corrupt French police give you a chance to change the bulb at the side of the road. Top tip when dealing with French police, never ever pay in cash, allways offer a credit card. 9 times out of 10 they will send you on your way. Now if that is not corrupt officers I don't know what is.
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Being an ex copper myself even I find this a bit steep :o
I would of thought some advice or even just a vehicle defect notice would suffice, that gives the owner 7 days to get any defects repaired but at the end of the day it was only a bulb wasn't it?
Gosh how times seemed to have changed :o ::)
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Going on what you have written I am disgusted, but not surprised in the slightest. The modern police are doing there utmost to alienate the general public. I wonder if they where trying for drink driving and where annoyed they did not get it, so "had" to find something wrong.
I wonder how some of these guys sleep at night. Probably very well on there inflated salaries.
Couple of points, was it in town, and did her journey take her on roads that required main beam ? if not I would be complaining. She could argue it would be dangerous to test main beam headlights in town/city before driving off. That said does the car have bulb failure system ? was there a warning on the dash.
Even the corrupt French police give you a chance to change the bulb at the side of the road. Top tip when dealing with French police, never ever pay in cash, allways offer a credit card. 9 times out of 10 they will send you on your way. Now if that is not corrupt officers I don't know what is.
It was in town & destination was 3 addresses in that town . . so main beam probably not required.
W reg. fiesta , don't think it will have a bulb blown warning :-\ :-\ :-\
Common sense should have prevailed surely . .
but forgot to mention it was an officer of the female gender who issued the ticket ::) ::) ::) ::)
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The reason your sister was probably stopped was because it was late at night and there was four people in the car
gives the police an excuse to stop and search for alcohol and drugs.
The bulb was spotted because none of the above was found.
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Being an ex copper myself even I find this a bit steep :o
I would of thought some advice or even just a vehicle defect notice would suffice, that gives the owner 7 days to get any defects repaired but at the end of the day it was only a bulb wasn't it?
Gosh how times seemed to have changed :o ::)
Probably thought they were going to get Drink Driving "Nick" ::) ::)
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Yet another example of why the police are losing the respect of the general public
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Yet another example of why the police are losing the respect of the general public
Exactly Rob :y :y
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I'm glad I left when I did lol ;D
It's even worse now, with even more red tape and targets to keep on top of :o
As said, I think words of advice would of been the best way to deal with this wouldn't it but then that's just me ;)
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What kind of road was she pulled on? if it was a 30mph limit and street lit I'm sure if memory serves me correctly side lights are required only :-\
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Modern policing has changed a lot since I was in uniform (and, without doubt, it has been required to change), but the requirement to assess any situation and deal with it in the most efficient manner has not.
So, unless there is absolutely no alternative to reporting any matter/issuing a notice or the person concerned is giving some measure of grief then, in the vast majority of cases, advice, a warning or the opportunity to rectify faults (in the case of vehicle detections) will all go a very long way to keep the essential compact between the police and the public alive and well.
Yes, it does appear to be a bit harsh, sadly, but given the performance targets issued by the gutless cadre of middle management which seems to be infesting the police at the moment or the over-zealous individual who delights in sticking it to someone (have known a few of that sort), I’m not at all surprised that such incidents occur.
I've said this many times - keep oppsing about with the people you depend on to make the system work i.e. the public, and you'll eventually get bitten by them and when you are, can you really complain?
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Just consulted HC this is what it states
113
You MUST
* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
* use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
* use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)
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Did she check their car? Last time I was stopped for no reason I found one of the rear light bulbs out on their car and as they were hassling me for no reason said I would report them and even took a pic on my phone. They b*ggered off when presented with this ::) Did report the incident and made the point to a senior officer that I did not expect to be harassed as a result. Least I've now sold the car - sorry Al keep out of Northants ;D ;D ;)
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pathetic police response - jobs worth obviously at work and trying to meet his stats target. Practically all that is wrong with our public services is effectively captured here
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As someone else said, I am also glad I done my last shift almost 6 years ago. Even back then targets was very much to the fore. Probies had a check sheet that they had to complete at various stages to show a depth and breadth of learning/understanding of the larger 'job' and perhaps this case is an instance of this.
There are always two sides to a story, however, and whilst offence at the following may be taken it is certainly not my intent. :)
If there were a couple of girls who had taken drink and got a bit gobby when stopped then the officer may -and I stress may - have reacted in the issue of a ticket. Not saying for an instant that it's acceptable but it may be a possibility.
That said, in town or not, it's the drivers responsibility to ensure that all lamps etc are working when used on a road. That the officer booked the driver as opposed to a VDRS (vehicle defect 21 day fix it ticket) is not how I would have dealt but. I was not there....
:y
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Just consulted HC this is what it states
113
You MUST
* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
* use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
* use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)
Yes looking at the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 there would seem to be room for manoeuvre here (there doesn't seem to have been any amendment made to the original stipulations on the use of headlamps - although without the actual paper in front of me I find it difficult to wade through the various sub-paragraphs and amendments as I hate reading from a screen).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/25/made
There may be additional factors not made clear by Big A's sister to him - in any case it would be helpful to know what the Constable noted on the penalty notice as being the reason for its issue.
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Just consulted HC this is what it states
113
You MUST
* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
* use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
* use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)
Bloody stupid rule. So you can drive in a lit town with just sidelights on! ??? Headlights when dark, whenever, should be the rule.
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Just consulted HC this is what it states
113
You MUST
* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
* use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
* use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)
Yes looking at the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 there would seem to be room for manoeuvre here (there doesn't seem to have been any amendment made to the original stipulations on the use of headlamps - although without the actual paper in front of me I find it difficult to wade through the various sub-paragraphs and amendments as I hate reading from a screen).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/25/made
There may be additional factors not made clear by Big A's sister to him - in any case it would be helpful to know what the Constable noted on the penalty notice as being the reason for its issue.
"obligatory lights not working" WPC issued the ticket ::) ::) ::)
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on same lines i got pulled over years ago going into boston and was pulled up, have to say this about 8 miles before a lorry threw up a stone and hit my windscreen and it cracked the screen from top to bottom, thinking bad enough that that had happened and having to get a new one, so carried on home, back to police they pulled me over and said (did you know your windscreen is legal) said yes but it just happend and going to get it fixed in the morning, said that dose not matter you cannot drive with the screen in this state and gave me a fine on the spot and a summons to for for the fine, £65. so now had to get new screen and pay a fine. >:(
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Just consulted HC this is what it states
113
You MUST
* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
* use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
* use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)
Yes looking at the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 there would seem to be room for manoeuvre here (there doesn't seem to have been any amendment made to the original stipulations on the use of headlamps - although without the actual paper in front of me I find it difficult to wade through the various sub-paragraphs and amendments as I hate reading from a screen).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/25/made
There may be additional factors not made clear by Big A's sister to him - in any case it would be helpful to know what the Constable noted on the penalty notice as being the reason for its issue.
"obligatory lights not working" WPC issued the ticket ::) ::) ::)
Is it definitely a Main Beam failure and not Dipped Beam? If so then IIRC it's not an "Obligatory Light" ;)
That said, is it worth arguing? May be better to just accept it :-\ I would also add that if you intend to get involved you need to make sure she has told you the complete truth about everything that happened, including whether the friends were being gobby ;)
Must admit, if it was me I would be tempted to appeal (unofficially at first) ::)
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Just consulted HC this is what it states
113
You MUST
* ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
* use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
* use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226)
Yes looking at the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 there would seem to be room for manoeuvre here (there doesn't seem to have been any amendment made to the original stipulations on the use of headlamps - although without the actual paper in front of me I find it difficult to wade through the various sub-paragraphs and amendments as I hate reading from a screen).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/25/made
There may be additional factors not made clear by Big A's sister to him - in any case it would be helpful to know what the Constable noted on the penalty notice [/highlight]as being the reason for its issue.
"obligatory lights not working" WPC issued the ticket ::) ::) ::)
That could have been a bit more specific in my view :(
Light or lights and which one of the obligatory lights?
Irrespective of what is considered to be an obligatory light and in what circumstances it must be used, the following stipulations would seem to be quite specific;
Maintenance of lamps, reflectors, rear markings and devices
23.—(1) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road a vehicle unless every lamp, reflector, rear marking and device to which this paragraph applies is in good working order and, in the case of a lamp, clean.
(2) Save as provided in paragraph (3), paragraph (1) applies to–
(a)every– .
(i)front position lamp, .
(ii)rear position lamp, .
(iii)headlamp, .
(iv)rear registration plate lamp, .
(v)side marker lamp, .
(vi)end-outline marker lamp, .
(vii)rear fog lamp//..........
From:http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/23/made
Although interestingly, from the same Regulation;
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to–
c)a defective lamp, reflector, dim-dip device or headlamp levelling device on a vehicle in use on a road between sunrise and sunset, if any such lamp, reflector or device became defective during the journey which is in progress or if arrangements have been made to remedy the defect with all reasonable expedition;
So there may indeed be room to manoeuvre.
It seems to me that this matter is not entirely straightforward and, providing there has been no aggro directed towards the detecting officer by either the driver of the vehicle or indeed any of the passengers, then I would be inclined to contact the officer concerned and ask for a further explanation of precisely why the notice was given - in what after all seems to me to be a case where advice, rather than sanction, would have been the better way forward.
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Is it possible that she (or one of her passengers) might have failed the attitude test?
Seems very harsh - but then discretion is slowly being taken away from the police on the streets, to the point that they'll be hauled in the office and asked to explain why they haven't issued enough tickets/ stop and accounts/ what colour pants are you wearing forms...
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,,,,//Seems very harsh - but then discretion is slowly being taken away from the police on the streets, to the point that they'll be hauled in the office and asked to explain why they haven't issued enough tickets/ stop and accounts/ what colour pants are you wearing forms...
I'm sad to see the way things are developing Klepto. :(
The police, as a body, are making a rod for their own backs if they intend to put the fulfilment of statistical tables ahead of performing real work so streets are safe for people to use.
The police need to reassure the public that they are acting in good faith for the benefit of them and not the statisticians.
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If this car was on a lit street wouldn't it be an offence to use main beam headlamps???
therefore her testing the light's before her journey would be an offence in itself..
Stick a complaint in to the duty inspector
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Oh dear ! :-[ :-[ :-[ as asked above . . the story is not exactly as I was first told so looks a little different now.
Sis, had just dropped the last of her 3 friends off in Chelmsford & was in the car by herself. BUT . . . it was the offside Dipped bulb that was out & she was on a 40MPH stretch of road.
Told her to pay it . . . . end of . sorry for the confusion.
Last word , sis told me she asked the officer if she could call the AA to replace the bulb . No was the reply , but she could drive the car home ::) ::) ::) ::)
Something ain;t right there surely >:( >:( >:( >:(
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That's very harsh Al, I have pulled many a car for having the odd light out. Mainly its a way in just to stop the vehicle to look at other possible offences i.e. Drink drive and such. But once I'm happy everything is in order I let them on their way with verbal advise.
I know that some say we have ticket targets, in some ways its true i.e. if your a traffic cop then you ain't doing your job if you don't give out tickets. We don't have targets as such, but we have to show some willing. But unless what the subject is doing is dangerous i.e mobile phone, dangerous loads, dangerous vehicles, excessive speed (off the top of me head) common sense prevails.
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Oh dear ! :-[ :-[ :-[ as asked above . . the story is not exactly as I was first told so looks a little different now.
Sis, had just dropped the last of her 3 friends off in Chelmsford & was in the car by herself. BUT . . . it was the offside Dipped bulb that was out & she was on a 40MPH stretch of road.
Told her to pay it . . . . end of . sorry for the confusion.
Last word , sis told me she asked the officer if she could call the AA to replace the bulb . No was the reply , but she could drive the car home ::) ::) ::) ::)
Something ain;t right there surely >:( >:( >:( >:(
So let me get this right, the police woman would not ler her fix the car, but said it was OK for her to drive. That really stinks, and is surely contradicting the ticket and I would be complaining if it was me. At least give them more paperwork to do, they want to waste your time, perhaps you should waste theres.
I have this site bookmarked http://www.hampshire.police.uk/Internet/contact/How+to+make+a+complaint.htm I know it is a different polce area, but may give you an idea.
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Hmmm... Still seems harsh to me and worthy of an appeal, unless she admitted that she already knew it was out before the journey ???
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Oh dear ! :-[ :-[ :-[ as asked above . . the story is not exactly as I was first told so looks a little different now.
Sis, had just dropped the last of her 3 friends off in Chelmsford & was in the car by herself. BUT . . . it was the offside Dipped bulb that was out & she was on a 40MPH stretch of road.
Told her to pay it . . . . end of . sorry for the confusion.
Last word , sis told me she asked the officer if she could call the AA to replace the bulb . No was the reply , but she could drive the car home ::) ::) ::) ::)
Something ain;t right there surely >:( >:( >:( >:(
That's a shame Big A; your sister happened to deal with an officer who decided to take that course of action but many officers would take the view that driver of such a vehicle should be aware of this type of fault - car being driven at night, off-side dipped beam out- decreased spread of lighting pattern and so on.
Many other officers I know would have warned her of the fault and given her the opportunity to have it rectified against production for subsequent examination. Hell, when I was in uniform (some time ago now) I would have given her the benefit of having it repaired as I believed that there was merit in giving everyone a chance where possible.
In relation to the Act, the offence is absolute and the Constable dealt with it in the manner she thought appropriate – not in the way many of us would have dealt with it, but in the way she ultimately, and quite correctly, did.
In relation to Manta’s suggestion that she should make a complaint regarding the conduct of the Constable issuing the notice I don’t think it would be justified and is indeed spurious, as there seems little doubt now that the notice was issued in appropriate circumstances: In any case, the time for such an appeal was at the time of the detection in my view.
There is no requirement for police to permit roadside repairs in lieu of dealing with any offences and as far as I remember, the police cannot seize a vehicle for the reasons of it being in an un-roadworthy condition or prohibit its use, given the nature of this particular fault.
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Going on what you have written I am disgusted, but not surprised in the slightest. The modern police are doing there utmost to alienate the general public. I wonder if they where trying for drink driving and where annoyed they did not get it, so "had" to find something wrong.
I wonder how some of these guys sleep at night. Probably very well on there inflated salaries.
Couple of points, was it in town, and did her journey take her on roads that required main beam ? if not I would be complaining. She could argue it would be dangerous to test main beam headlights in town/city before driving off. That said does the car have bulb failure system ? was there a warning on the dash.
Even the corrupt French police give you a chance to change the bulb at the side of the road. Top tip when dealing with French police, never ever pay in cash, allways offer a credit card. 9 times out of 10 they will send you on your way. Now if that is not corrupt officers I don't know what is.
always ask for a receipt, sometimes if you offer the card they'll escort you a card machine.....just dont speed...
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A few weeks ago I told a Police Officer that he had a headlight out. He barely acknowledged me. If I'd have known about this then could I have given him a fixed penalty notice or does it only work one way?. :-\
I know you have to take each event at face value but they really don't inspire the love of the public at times do they. The couple next door to me are both Police Officers and are both genuinely nice people but now and again even they admit that they do it for the salary and pension rather than the love of the job. They too, at times, get kicked from both sides.
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My sister asked tonight . . . . As far as checking your lights are working . . . how is this determined then?
If you check your lights once a week . . say on a Saturday morning & all OK. Then you get pulled for a light out Sat night.
Saying to the officer " but they were all working this morning " means nothing .
I am visualizing motorists driving 200 yds getting out & checking all lights . . drive another 200 yds . . get out . . check ;D ;D ;D
To sum this up . . common sense should have prevailed , car was all legal , as was driver (drink / drugs etc.) a warning to get it
fixed should have sufficed.
thanks for all your input guys . . 30 quid if she pays within 20 odd days she says >:( >:( >:( >:(
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When I was 2 up on my Fazer in a bus lane I knew I shouldn`t be using at the time.
Yes throw the book @ me, but not for a burnt out bulb.
Is it me or are the coppers looking younger!
Oh by the way, the book wasn`t thrown @ me........ well sort of.
there was a big copper waiting @ the end of bus lane and pulled me over
It went something like this, " are you one of them" pointing @ a passing bus....."err no"
" are you one of them" pointing @ a passing push bike......"err no"
At this point my young female Polish work mate in leathers starting un-zipping her top to find her ringing fone. This totally disctracted my new tall friend for about 10 seconds.
I got a fixed penalty of £30 for using the bus lane.
And he actually told Miss Poland to hold on tight!!!! It was almost worth the £30.
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Going on what you have written I am disgusted, but not surprised in the slightest. The modern police are doing there utmost to alienate the general public. I wonder if they where trying for drink driving and where annoyed they did not get it, so "had" to find something wrong.
I wonder how some of these guys sleep at night. Probably very well on there inflated salaries.
Couple of points, was it in town, and did her journey take her on roads that required main beam ? if not I would be complaining. She could argue it would be dangerous to test main beam headlights in town/city before driving off. That said does the car have bulb failure system ? was there a warning on the dash.
Even the corrupt French police give you a chance to change the bulb at the side of the road. Top tip when dealing with French police, never ever pay in cash, allways offer a credit card. 9 times out of 10 they will send you on your way. Now if that is not corrupt officers I don't know what is.
always ask for a receipt, sometimes if you offer the card they'll escort you a card machine.....just dont speed...
Blueboss, I never speed by any large margin, maybe 3 to 5 mph. When driving on the continent I am allways under the speed limit (ALWAYS) reason being I really do concentrate on europes roads, I miss all the scenery etc.
Just try driving a British registered car around Paris, you will be stopped regardless, admittedly it was the third time I had been there before being stopped. Now it is almost every visit. And to top it of my French passenger, refuses to speak when we are stopped, he says it will make it worse if he speaks ?
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My sister asked tonight . . . . As far as checking your lights are working . . . how is this determined then?
Required to check them before each journey - ie, you go from home to work, check before you set off. You decide to get a paper on the way - check the lamps again when you come out of the paper shop. Your statutory defence is "they were all working when I set off".
Always worth having a box full of spare bulbs - and, unless you have one of the odd dismantle-the-front-end cars, know how to fit them... worth showing the lady in question?
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My sister asked tonight . . . . As far as checking your lights are working . . . how is this determined then?
Required to check them before each journey - ie, you go from home to work, check before you set off. You decide to get a paper on the way - check the lamps again when you come out of the paper shop. Your statutory defence is "they were all working when I set off".
Always worth having a box full of spare bulbs - and, unless you have one of the odd dismantle-the-front-end cars, know how to fit them... worth showing the lady in question?
Just to be awkward ;D if the lady in question just stopped and dropped off a passenger without switching off engine. Is she still on the same original journey ? Perhaps you can see where I am coming from. I understand the bit about stopping to buy a paper. But if she stayed with car and engine running then surely no new journey has begun. If it just the act of stopping the car, then what happens at junctions/roundabouts etc. I apprecate I am being padantic about this. :y
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Just to be awkward ;D if the lady in question just stopped and dropped off a passenger without switching off engine. Is she still on the same original journey ?
You could opt to have it heard in court, it might even become a stated case ;D