Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: SMD on 13 July 2012, 11:27:07
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Fitted a part worn tyre to get the car through the MOT yesterday, and I remembered Optis post about tyre widths and went to the car to have a look. I wrapped my arms around the tyre and tried to get my fingers to meet between the tyre/shock (of course this was not possible ;D )
Is it possible to check or a tell tale that tyre is rubbing against shock?
Tyre is 235/45/17
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Look for any witness marks on the sidewall of the tyre. :y
If it's not actually touching at rest, and there's a few mm of clearance, it'll probably be OK.
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Look for any witness marks on the sidewall of the tyre. :y
I'll keep an eye on it, cheers :y
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The 235/45 17 leaves virtually no gap! Are they omega wheels? As fwd vauxhalls have different offsets.
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Yes, early Elite wheels.
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They'll be fine then, the omega's based on carlton/senator chassis so 17" was a later fitment and why spare wheel well only big enough for 195's ::)
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Fitted a part worn tyre to get the car through the MOT yesterday, and I remembered Optis post about tyre widths and went to the car to have a look. I wrapped my arms around the tyre and tried to get my fingers to meet between the tyre/shock (of course this was not possible ;D )
Is it possible to check or a tell tale that tyre is rubbing against shock?
Tyre is 235/45/17
I've had my new tyres (Goodyear Eagle F1 asym 2 235/45/17 ) fitted for a couple of hundred miles now.......and I think they are just about okay........but they sit extremely close to the front shock......about 1mm.
As stated in my previous post, the Goodyears are getting on for an inch wider than the Michelin Primacy's they've replaced.
I can't hear any contact or rubbing, but I'm tempted to remove the front tyres, just to check. :y
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Use a compact camera or your phone, hold it at back of tyre and take a few pics :y
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I have 245/40/18 on the front of mine and thats tight but perfectly ok.. :y
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Use a compact camera or your phone, hold it at back of tyre and take a few pics :y
Good idea. :y
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Some allowance will be needed for tyre deflection. A gap at rest will not necessarily mean it won't touch the shock at speed when cornering.
Tell tales are
... burning rubber smell lingering after a corner.
... wheel speed related knocking, check on full lock both sides in forward and reverse.
... With wheel removed you'll see the paint missing from the shock in the relevant area.
It "should" be ok with 1.10-1.20 camber setting if there's no rim protection on stock wheels. But not all tyres side walls are shaped and behave the same way at speed. Add in, say, et38 vectra wheels, rim protection (again this varies between manufacturers) and or excess camber, or a wheel weight on the inside edge, and rubbing may occur while cornering.
A stock wheel with Wim spec set up should give enough clearance, provided non of the above apply. But as said, not all tyres and sidewalls behave the same.
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Just to add:
The hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
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..and while the tyre will deflect at its' contact point with the ground, I doubt deflection will be significant at the top of the tyre. As said, though, just keep an eye out for marks on the sidewall.
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
You'd be very suprised. Clearly. ;)
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Would've thought 10-20 mm of lateral movement at the road could be normal under heavy cornering with soft tyres :-\
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
You'd be very suprised. Clearly. ;)
Opti will son report , if there will be any play.. let see ;D
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
You'd be very suprised. Clearly. ;)
Opti will son report , if there will be any play.. let see ;D
Cem, I find your posts rather rude. But maybe there is a misunderstanding. Can you please explane exactly what your, apparently, mocking tone is for please? :-\
Are you saying that tyres do not deflect?
Or that this size will fit regardless without issue?
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
You'd be very suprised. Clearly. ;)
Opti will son report , if there will be any play.. let see ;D
Cem, I find your posts rather rude. But maybe there is a misunderstanding. Can you please explane exactly what your, apparently, mocking tone is for please? :-\
Are you saying that tyres do not deflect?
Or that this size will fit regardless without issue?
Don't be so over-sensitive Chris... Don't forget he's writing in a foreign language ;) I frequently do, especially now his written English is so good :-[ ;)
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
You'd be very suprised. Clearly. ;)
Opti will son report , if there will be any play.. let see ;D
Cem, I find your posts rather rude. But maybe there is a misunderstanding. Can you please explane exactly what your, apparently, mocking tone is for please? :-\
Are you saying that tyres do not deflect?
Or that this size will fit regardless without issue?
Why Chris ? ???
I dont see any mocking tone :-\ as explained above strut and lower arms are a whole part with tire..
and as far as I know there are many joints/bushes which will move before the tire looses its shape (unless it has low pressure).. besides the steel carcass inside the tire will hardly permit the tire to go more upwards :-\
now, as I see either my language is not adequate to tell or your not in good mood tonight.. :(
ps: must admit I'm also not very sure but my opinion tends towards that upward movement of tire inside the strut and arms/wishbones etc will be very limited.. an exception may be if you hit the side walls or another reason may be.. for that reason I said lets see..
pps: another parameter is when the tires start to loose thread depth problem will finish..
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Surely tyre when at top will of returned to normal, thats why low pressure causes more flexing of sidewall and creates more heat in tyre at speed.
If there was any chance of problem vx wouldn't of fitted 235/45 17 for so long, it would of caused a massive recall!
I worked in dealerships for over 10 years and never heard of any tyre rubbing :y
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Just to add:
The 1.hub position, and therefore the wheel position, is fixed in relation to the strut :y once the hub/strut bolts are tightened, they are essentially the same part. Any movement happens either at the ball joint between the hub and lower arm, or at the top of the strut. :y in either case well away from where the rim is next to the strut. 2.Tyre flex under duress should be the only cause of contact between strut and wheel :-\
1.yep..
2.for a 1 mm play in tire shape , you need to jump in a half meter deep pothole ;D
You'd be very suprised. Clearly. ;)
Opti will son report , if there will be any play.. let see ;D
Cem, I find your posts rather rude. But maybe there is a misunderstanding. Can you please explane exactly what your, apparently, mocking tone is for please? :-\
Are you saying that tyres do not deflect?
Or that this size will fit regardless without issue?
Why Chris ? ???
I dont see any mocking tone :-\ as explained above strut and lower arms are a whole part with tire..
and as far as I know there are many joints/bushes which will move before the tire looses its shape (unless it has low pressure).. besides the steel carcass inside the tire will hardly permit the tire to go more upwards :-\
now, as I see either my language is not adequate to tell or your not in good mood tonight.. :(
Well let's see.
You find the concept of fitting poly bushes with wishbones still on the car laughable going by historic posts. Even though almost all members with poly fitted have done exactly that. Including myself. Tb, Kevin Wood, and Guffers have all done exactly that in my presence iirc. As has Seth and Turk going by posts here. To name a few.:)
You feel the need to insist all members have winter tyres fitted and find the concept that we don't need anything other than summer tyres laughable.
There are numerous posts on here with members reporting rubbing issues on roundabouts or similar to later be diagnosed with excess camber/rim protection and or odd sized tyres being the cause.
Plus the nature of my post in this thread would surely show, that I have first hand experience of this problem with my own cars due to experimentation with set up. Yet, again, there appears to be some laughable aspect to a concept that may not appear clear to yourself. :-\
I don't really understand your apparent tone. If I have misunderstood I appologise unreservedly. But I can assure you, with first hand experience, and through diagnosing and reading other members problems on here and working on their cars with my own hands...
A tyre can/will deflect enough to rub the shock in corners, even though it spins freely without rubbing when tested jacked up on the drive. It is strange I know, and there could be numerous causes. Wheel barings, play and wear ruled out. Tyre temp and pressue increases maybe. But that is the nature of it. Do you think I would go to the trouble of posting, if it wasn't based on experience. :) I am very concerned if you feel that is the case? Hopefully I have misunderstood somewhere?
I have a pair of wheels in standard size in the garage that physically will not fit on the hub, because the rim protection is so wide.
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no need to apologize Chris.. its a technical discussion and people share their thoughts, opinions and experinces..
and I wish you gave more detail instead of saying I would be more surprised.. ;D now thats sarcastic ;D ;D :y
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no need to apologize Chris.. its a technical discussion and people share their thoughts, opinions and experinces..
and I wish you gave more detail instead of saying I would be more surprised.. ;D now thats sarcastic ;D ;D :y
your right cem. I should have asked for explanation earlier, instead of replying similarly. But clearly, you really would be suprised. As you rightly say. :)
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A couple of piccies of the shock and tyre relationship
(http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae183/janbowles/use2-1.jpg)
(http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae183/janbowles/use21.jpg)
Looks okay I think :y
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Yes, early Elite wheels.
Early Elites were 15" or 16" its only the later Facelift Elite that had 17" ;)
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A couple of piccies of the shock and tyre relationship
(http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae183/janbowles/use2-1.jpg)
(http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae183/janbowles/use21.jpg)
Looks okay I think :y
yep.. cant see any sign of interference.. :y
however, any spacer can finish this "close relation" forever :)
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Small update,
Had the wheel off yesterday and noticed a shine on the centre of the shock where the wheel had possibly been rubbing. Tyre pressure is 2.3 bar and there is a tiny gap when on cold tyres so I'm guessing this increases when warm and causes the rubbing. Tyre looks fine.
I noticed a faint whirring sound on a motorway run yesterday, wonder if this is why (or probably because my pinion seal is weeping ::) )
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Small update,
Had the wheel off yesterday and noticed a shine on the centre of the shock where the wheel had possibly been rubbing. Tyre pressure is 2.3 bar and there is a tiny gap when on cold tyres so I'm guessing this increases when warm and causes the rubbing. Tyre looks fine.
I noticed a faint whirring sound on a motorway run yesterday, wonder if this is why (or probably because my pinion seal is weeping ::) )
interesting.. you are the first who reports rubbing with 235 45 17.. ??? a high percentage of forum is using the same size. :-\
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Suprised cem ? ::) ::) ::) ;)
Joking apart, don't worry about your English mate - its very good.
Remember some members can be over sensitive and over reactive ???
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Maybe a wheel balance will sort that too..?
Oh no, wait, yes that's a GEOMETRY issue, isn't it. ;)
Although what wheels you running SMD?
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Early facelift elite 17" wheels
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Suprised cem ? ::) ::) ::) ;)
Joking apart, don't worry about your English mate - its very good.
Remember some members can be over sensitive and over reactive ???
this size is a factory fit (although other members also say that its very close) so there must be some problems in front setup.. so not surprised :) :y
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Does this car suffer from inner edge wear of the front tyres?
Has the camber been set correctly?
I was surprised just how much freedom of movement there is when the bolts holding the stub axle to the strut are loosened.
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What is the current camber setting on the car ? :)
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poor camber setting will cause contact, other than that there should be no contact with 235s.
245s will not fit.
expect 50% of the ground-level deflection at the top of the tyre.
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Owned the car over a year and half and it used to drive as straight as an arrow. Last month I replaced front offside tyre with a part worn to pass MOT. Noticed immediately car didn't drive straight, steering has to be turned slightly right to drive straight. Tyre wear is nice and even (which is a first) but I don't expect this to last now. No idea on camber setting as I never had it done.
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Small update,
Had the wheel off yesterday and noticed a shine on the centre of the shock where the wheel had possibly been rubbing. Tyre pressure is 2.3 bar and there is a tiny gap when on cold tyres so I'm guessing this increases when warm and causes the rubbing. Tyre looks fine.
I noticed a faint whirring sound on a motorway run yesterday, wonder if this is why (or probably because my pinion seal is weeping ::) )
I have seen many old tires which has lost its perfect circular shape (not visible unless they turn above a speed) .. although may not give balance issues when loaded but when you turn them on a balancing machine or on a car you can see some deviation.. so worth checking also..
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Owned the car over a year and half and it used to drive as straight as an arrow. Last month I replaced front offside tyre with a part worn to pass MOT. Noticed immediately car didn't drive straight, steering has to be turned slightly right to drive straight. Tyre wear is nice and even (which is a first) but I don't expect this to last now. No idea on camber setting as I never had it done.
if the wear is even I suspect there excess toe as well.
Needs FULL geometric set up.
So first, check all the steering and suspension parts for wear or breakages. Pay special attention to bushes, springs and ball joints, including steering idler.
Recify
Set up for full geo at Wim or similar.
Then fit any new tyres needed. Not before if possible.
(note, none of the above includes wheel balance :). )
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Chris, the car was fine before the part worn tyre went on and car passed without any advisories so I assumed all suspension components are ok.
(note, none of the above includes wheel balance . )
What do you mean by this mate, my brains not working.
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Chris, the car was fine before the part worn tyre went on and car passed without any advisories so I assumed all suspension components are ok.
(note, none of the above includes wheel balance . )
What do you mean by this mate, my brains not working.
Wheel balance unlikely to be the cause :-\
The main issue with part worn tyres is that you have absolutely no idea what has happened to it previously.
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Chris, the car was fine before the part worn tyre went on and car passed without any advisories so I assumed all suspension components are ok.
Dont rely on MOTs!!
If a component fails an MOT, its usually beyond shagged. ;)
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Chris, the car was fine before the part worn tyre went on and car passed without any advisories so I assumed all suspension components are ok.
Dont rely on MOTs!!
If a component fails an MOT, its usually beyond shagged. ;)
True but if there was play in any components or needed replacing in the near future, woukd they issue advisories?
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Chris, the car was fine before the part worn tyre went on and car passed without any advisories so I assumed all suspension components are ok.
Dont rely on MOTs!!
If a component fails an MOT, its usually beyond shagged. ;)
True but if there was play in any components or needed replacing in the near future, woukd they issue advisories?
Maybe, maybe not.
My rear bushes were completely detached from their cups. Never a murmur at MOT time.
They are concerned that things aren't going to become detatched when the car is in motion, not that it will handle well. ;)
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I have never seen an omega fail on front bushes, ever. That's not to say, or imply they never fail on an mot, they do. My point is, I have owned 5 omegas, 3 of which I would class as my own cars. But all 5 had valid mot's, all 5 had failed front bushes, 2 of which where re presented for mot in the next due date, both passed. When they shouldn't have done.
At the Wim open day, 13 cars arived for potential set up, all but one where turned away due to failed bushes. All had an mot.
Only failure I have had for bushes was rear donuts. Btw. It's fairly appalling tbh.
So no, never rely on an mot. Failed front bushes are hard to spot though, being fair to the mot guys.
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Mine has been flagged a couple of times for shagged front bushes, but, as Kevin says, generally speaking, if it can't fall off, then it probably won't fail...might be quite a long advisory list though :-\
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Chris, the car was fine before the part worn tyre went on and car passed without any advisories so I assumed all suspension components are ok.
(note, none of the above includes wheel balance . )
What do you mean by this mate, my brains not working.
Ignore it - sarcasm ::)