Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Strangechap on 07 September 2012, 20:15:48
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Ok, so I've read loads of threads about how much cheaper LPG is for Omegas. Some are quite old threads though.
I'm taking my 3.0 elite to a guy tomorrow to have it converted during the next week.
I'm starting to get last minute nerves though, I don't do a massive mileage (12k a year) but I do intend to keep the car 5 years at least, all being well. I'm fortunate to have my main client fairly close to home, but that may change.
The wife is giving me a hard time saying maybe I should have bought a newer diesel for the same amount I am spending on the Omega, and I concede she is probably correct, but I love driving a big, powerful, comfy motor. The Omega is this.
I'm paying a fair bit for the conversion, but I've done a lot of research and he seems to know his stuff. I can't be bothered to do it myself, I have 3 cars too look after and I'm sick of working on them at times!
One of my main concerns is LPG price rising, cancelling savings, it does seem to be more expensive now to petrol comparatively speaking. Is this gap going to keep closing I wonder?
It's a bit late for me to back out now really as I have the Omega and the guy is expecting me tomorrow, so I'm kind of hoping most people will agree the conversion is still a good idea. We'll see.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Tim
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whats a fair bit?
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Imho, your main and immediate saving would be to do the install yourself using the excellent guides on here and also you have our lpg gurus to talk you through any bits you're unsure of. You would then know the job has been done correctly and to your standards, which gives great peace of mind and also a feeling of great satisfaction when finally running on gas! It really is not difficult, it just needs a methodical and sensible approach to the job at hand. :y
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Glad you posted this, as I am thinking exactly the same, and SWMBO is moaning about the outlay, whilst I'm trying to convince her it will pay for itself in less than a year :-[
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The saving, IME, is around 8-9p per mile. So over 12,000 miles, around £900-£1k.
Both my installs were less than £600 each (so around 8000 miles to pay back), so on both of my cars are in profit from that viewpoint.
If I bought another petrol Omega, it would get LPG'd (but likely DIY'd)
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Well initially £1600, but I'm hoping to get £300 back as I'm putting some work his way if it comes off.
I know it's more expensive than doing it myself, but at the moment my time is very limited due to work and family commitments. I just don't have the spare time to do it myself. I probably could with a bit of help from you kind forum chaps, I'm fairly skilled with cars.
I've already spent a couple of weekends more than I wanted fixing a few other bits that were wrong with the car when I got it, I can't really justify spending any more time on it. Got a lot going on at the moment as I'm going Ltd for my business and I'm busy chosing accountants and opening accounts etc, and I think my brain will explode if I try to put a shopping list together for LPG components!
(plus I think SWMBO may throw me out!)
On top of that, the Trans Am will be coming off the road at the end of sept or oct and I have a shed load of winter repairs to do on that, which ties up my garage.
Bluebridge: I'd say if it will pay in a year, you are in a stronger postion than I. What are your reasons for not just buying a diesel, as you obviously do a fair mileage?
Tim
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At that cost, you be looking at 20,000 miles before its paid back.
Also 9 times out of 10, the "professional" installs have been appauling!
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Over the last two days, I've done 450 miles in my Omega 3.2 V6 auto.
30mpg exactly. This was on petrol. Most definitely NOT miss daisy driving, and a boot full of jack, stands, tools, etc. Gloucester, Hemel Hempstead, Castleford, and back to Gloucester. So mix of A roads and motorways. Final run home was scenic route, Fosse Way, and I had a little fun in the twisties coming back through Stow.
Basically used £100 worth of petrol.
Which, To be honest, is not bad for a big thirsty auto.
On gas, , my MPG would have dropped from 30, to around 21-23.
On gas, taking into account the MPG drop and local prices, my trip would have been £64.
So on one trip, I would have saved £36 by using gas.
Maybe an incentive to fix my LPG lead and get it calibrated now it's an auto again! Still, I thought it wouldn't do it any harm to have a good run on petrol :y
It might not seem like a lot, but that's not to be sniffed at, really - it's a good wedge towards a curry! :y
Personally, I can only justify LPG because I can fit and maintain it myself. If I had to pay someone, I wouldn't consider it viable..
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
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....
(plus I think SWMBO may throw me out!)
.....
That might be considered a plus point! ::) ::)
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
Over the 450 miles...
motorways, varied between reasonably high indicated speeds when driving in the dead of night, combined with cruises keeping up with the faster flow of traffic, when traffic a little heavier. A roads, 70mph (as most were twin carriageways), and a few kickdown overtakes on the normal roads.
Not caning it by any stretch... but making as much progress as safely possible :y
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That's correct. I'm estimating 2 years. If I keep the car 5 years, that should give me 3 years of money saving motoring.
I've heard of some really poor installs from the 'professionals' I've spoken at length to this chap, he makes no apologies for not being cheap, and says that he does good work. Of course he could be full of tosh, but he's been very helpful, no pressure and sounds like he knows what he's on about. My bro who is a truly competent mechanic and is nobody's fool has also spoken to him and thought he sounds ok.
No guarantee of course, but the outfits that were cheaper have been pestering me and promising to do the conversion in a day. My chap has quoted three, but is happier if I leave it with him for the full week so he can be happy with it.
I'll certainly be checking the workmanship before I part with my cash.
I will probably maintain the system. That, I will be able to find the time to do! I do all my other servicing myself.
James, 30 isn't bad at all and the fact that you could have saved 36 quid on gas is a big incentive. All those 36es add up!
Thanks for all your comments.
Tim
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Ask him if he intends to remove the inlet manifold before drilling & tapping it.If he doesnt - run. ;)
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
I'm lucky if I see 270 out of a tank now, even if 3/4 of the tank is done at 80mph cruise :(
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
I'm lucky if I see 270 out of a tank now, even if 3/4 of the tank is done at 80mph cruise :(
The most I managed on petrol was 300 miles or so, although I did only run about 4 tankfulls through before LPG was fitted... I remember the surprise when the light came on at around 290 miles the first time though :D
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
I'm lucky if I see 270 out of a tank now, even if 3/4 of the tank is done at 80mph cruise :(
The most I managed on petrol was 300 miles or so, although I did only run about 4 tankfulls through before LPG was fitted... I remember the surprise when the light came on at around 290 miles the first time though :D
You are all just fat gits, I've yet to get less than 300 ;D
So far 320 - 340 ish....
Not done many long runs in it really, off to Norfolk next week, but with 2 bikes on the roof & boot full of camping gear going to be bit crappy in mpg :(
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
I'm lucky if I see 270 out of a tank now, even if 3/4 of the tank is done at 80mph cruise :(
The most I managed on petrol was 300 miles or so, although I did only run about 4 tankfulls through before LPG was fitted... I remember the surprise when the light came on at around 290 miles the first time though :D
You are all just fat gits, I've yet to get less than 300 ;D
So far 320 - 340 ish....
Not done many long runs in it really, off to Norfolk next week, but with 2 bikes on the roof & boot full of camping gear going to be bit crappy in mpg :(
Where are you going to?
As for being fat... I think it's more that we push the loud pedal a bit harder ;) It revs to more than 2000 RPM you know ::)
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Main routes are Brackley to West London, which is mostly dual carriage way & motorway. Also do few runs of West London, down to Kingston upon Thames. Cruise usually spot on 80mph with cruise set, when on the motorway for the 75 mile run back.
If I'm honest it rarely revs above 4k, much like my 2.2 ::)
Other than that, avoid braking as much as possible, by looking ahead. Quite a few short cuts around here, to avoid lights and be stopped for a few mins.
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I would think it more economical to sell yours and buy an already converted Omega for likely the same price!
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I would think it more economical to sell yours and buy an already converted Omega for likely the same price!
But you are buying an unknown entity ;) Assuming the op has got his up together and done all the main problems that occur then he might have to do all that again on a new one ;)
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That's a good point. I've already checked mine out and serviced it, done the breathers and rocker gaskets etc so I know it's sound, plus I was fairly specific about what age and spec I wanted. I've not seen any others come up with LPG anywhere close.
I dropped the car off with the guy this morning. Lovely bloke, very knowledgable. Explained what he would do and discussed what my commute was like as he would take that into consideration when setting the system up. He showed me a BMW he had in for some work that he had converted about 6 years ago. Still going strong. I had a good look at the quality of workmanship and it was spot on. Everything neat and tidy. If I hadn't know what to look for, it would have looked like it was there when the car was made.
So I'm in his hands now, we will see what I get back next weekend! Thanks for all your advice chaps. No one jumped up and said 'stop, you're a fool!' which reassures me somewhat.
Tim
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You need to try harder James... I couldn't have gotten 450 miles from £100 of petrol ::) more like £130 :-X ::)
Would cost me about £80 in LPG mind ::)
;D :y
A good example of how you cannot compare the fuel economies of 2 completely different drivers though ;) Especially as the figures I quote are based on what I would call "taking it fairly steady" ::)
I'm lucky if I see 270 out of a tank now, even if 3/4 of the tank is done at 80mph cruise :(
You need to get a 2.7 CRD Jeep, much better on fuel............ :y :y
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Tunnie you're missing out on the best third of the engine ::)
The noise as it pulls through 5k on the way to the red line is worth every bucket of fuel 8)
Might explain why there are so many broken autoboxes though ;D
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Keep us updated Strangechap and hope it all goes well :y
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Here's some maths for you:
The current "combined" fuel cycle for the PFL 3.0 auto Omega is: 23.7 MPG.
£100 x £1.41 = 70.92198582 litres divided by 15.60096476 gallons, times by 23.7 MPG = 370 miles per £100.
Now, using the same maths above and knocking off 4mpg for running on LPG (guesstimate) will be 19.7 MPG.
£100 x £0.78 = 128.2051282 litres divided by 28.201744 gallons times by 19.7 MPG = 555 miles per £100.
So according to these calculations, you will gain an extra 185 miles for every £100 of LPG you buy compared to petrol.
Which means you would have literally cut your fuel costs in half. (Half of 370 = 185.)
Hope this helps... :)
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Dunno if Im missing something,but to cut fuel costs in half you would need to achieve 740 miles per £100 (2x 370). ???
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Yep, no way will LPG halve fuel costs. It can reduce it by up to 50%, IME, which is actually what your numbers are saying (370x1.5 = 555). ;)
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Yep, no way will LPG halve fuel costs. It can reduce it by up to 50%, IME, which is actually what your numbers are saying (370x1.5 = 555). ;)
What Kevin said. Your figures show that you are making a saving of 33.3%, not 50%. :y
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Yep, no way will LPG halve fuel costs. It can reduce it by up to 50%, IME, which is actually what your numbers are saying (370x1.5 = 555). ;)
What Kevin said. Your figures show that you are making a saving of 33.3%, not 50%. :y
Oh, yeah, that's what I meant. :-[
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Yep, no way will LPG halve fuel costs. It can reduce it by up to 50%, IME, which is actually what your numbers are saying (370x1.5 = 555). ;)
What Kevin said. Your figures show that you are making a saving of 33.3%, not 50%. :y
Recurring. :P :D
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
Thats exactly what I did with my current car,around two and a half years ago. One of the best car decisions Ive ever made. :y
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
Thats exactly what I did with my current car,around two and a half years ago. One of the best car decisions Ive ever made. :y
I would prefer that also :y
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Here's some maths for you:
The current "combined" fuel cycle for the PFL 3.0 auto Omega is: 23.7 MPG.
£100 x £1.41 = 70.92198582 litres divided by 15.60096476 gallons, times by 23.7 MPG = 370 miles per £100.
Now, using the same maths above and knocking off 4mpg for running on LPG (guesstimate) will be 19.7 MPG.
£100 x £0.78 = 128.2051282 litres divided by 28.201744 gallons times by 19.7 MPG = 555 miles per £100.
So according to these calculations, you will gain an extra 185 miles for every £100 of LPG you buy compared to petrol.
Which means you would have literally cut your fuel costs in half. (Half of 370 = 185.)
Hope this helps... :)
The maths is right (bar some assumptions, eg using petrol for starting), the conclusion is wrong. You maths show a saving of 33%, which is in line with the norm - save a 1/3rd on fuel.
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
No LPG consumables on an Omega, bar a filter, which is less than a tenner, and is probably never changed... ...which reminds me, I really should... ...nah, can't be bothered ;D
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Changed my filter a year ago, just because it was all coming out for a cam cover gasket change anyway.. Cut the old one open and it was like new inside. I guess our gas is clean enough that it's not worth the bother.
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Changed my filter a year ago, just because it was all coming out for a cam cover gasket change anyway.. Cut the old one open and it was like new inside. I guess our gas is clean enough that it's not worth the bother.
Which matches another member's experience (LazyCripple?)
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
No LPG consumables on an Omega, bar a filter, which is less than a tenner, and is probably never changed... ...which reminds me, I really should... ...nah, can't be bothered ;D
by consumables I mean all consumables , tires, brakes, sparks,oil whatever etc.. In the past I had an LPG car which I started to use more than the avg (monthly avg).. as a result I finish the consumables quickly.. :-\
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
No LPG consumables on an Omega, bar a filter, which is less than a tenner, and is probably never changed... ...which reminds me, I really should... ...nah, can't be bothered ;D
by consumables I mean all consumables , tires, brakes, sparks,oil whatever etc.. In the past I had an LPG car which I started to use more than the avg (monthly avg).. as a result I finish the consumables quickly.. :-\
These are not LPG specific. If you do 1000m, these parts will wear at same rate, LPG or otherwise. Arguably, the oil lasts longer on LPG.
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::)
I see that no one calculates normal fuel cost before engine switches..
it will never be half.. besides, when you have an lpg car you start to use car more ;D
and this is the part where consumables start to erode your gain.. :-\
and as for buying an already LPG converted car; I would buy from someone who I know the car and the person..
otherwise with a car with mechanical,electronical issues its the hardest puzzle..
No LPG consumables on an Omega, bar a filter, which is less than a tenner, and is probably never changed... ...which reminds me, I really should... ...nah, can't be bothered ;D
by consumables I mean all consumables , tires, brakes, sparks,oil whatever etc.. In the past I had an LPG car which I started to use more than the avg (monthly avg).. as a result I finish the consumables quickly.. :-\
These are not LPG specific. If you do 1000m, these parts will wear at same rate, LPG or otherwise. Arguably, the oil lasts longer on LPG.
govt workers take salary monthly ;D so I calculate everything on a monthly basis ;D :y
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The maths is right (bar some assumptions, eg using petrol for starting), the conclusion is wrong. You maths show a saving of 33%, which is in line with the norm - save a 1/3rd on fuel.
Haha... oh boy! I knew I was working something out incorrectly, but I had to leave to go to an appointment so I left it as is hoping it was right.
Yes, all of you are correct. It is around 33% not 50%. I tried to edit it but I don't have the privileges anymore so if anyone could be so kind to change it, I would appreciate it. :)
Running on petrol? I've driven LPG cars before. It took around 2 miles tops for the switchover, this was with an 2.9 I6. So I'd say around half a litre per day. After that the engine stays warm enough during the day to switch over without to much delay.
Half a litre x 365 days = 182 litres. So thats a little over 2 1/2 tanks worth a year you need to put in for fuel (£265 in today's prices.) Budget yourself another £300 a year for fuel just to be safe.
Some cars require valve lubricant systems to be installed, which requires a top up every so often which basically means more £££. Don't forget that the LPG system itself requires a good service every 10k or so.
If you did 23.7 MPG running on petrol @ 1.41 a litre that means in order to do 12000 miles it would cost you £3,200.
But I'm assuming you rack those miles up more on the motorway then you do the city. So it would be safe to assume you should achieve around 28 MPG x 1.41 a litre = £2,750 for every 12,000 miles (30/70 motorway.)
If the LPG system is costing you £1,600, add on another £300 for petrol and an extra say £100 maintenance cost for the system itself and you're looking at around £2,000 for the first year. So you should start seeing savings towards the end of the first year. :y
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Don't forget that the LPG system itself requires a good service every 10k or so.
Really, tell me more ::) ;D
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scenario1 (real) : car misfires from time to time and looses power.. lpg installer says not related to them, sends to mechanic , mechanic says , change ignition components , you change the parts and problem continues ;D back to lpg installers they change injector set.. no problem visible for sometime and then.. problem continues back to mechanic .. cant find anything.. then some friend finds the problem with the sockets and finally all sockets changed with soldering them..
2 months later
scenario 2(real) : car looses power at high rpms, after several visits to several shops problem was found to be alternator..
just an example :-\
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scenario1 (real) : car misfires from time to time and looses power.. lpg installer says not related to them, sends to mechanic , mechanic says , change ignition components , you change the parts and problem continues ;D back to lpg installers they change injector set.. no problem visible for sometime and then.. problem continues back to mechanic .. cant find anything.. then some friend finds the problem with the sockets and finally all sockets changed with soldering them..
2 months later
scenario 2(real) : car looses power at high rpms, after several visits to several shops problem was found to be alternator..
just an example :-\
Poor diagnosis, unrelated to LPG. Generally, LPG faults are easy to isolate - run it on petrol.
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Scenario 1: poor workmanship from the initial installer.
Scenario 2: Alternators are a "consumable" item (to some degree) so fair wear and tear? How old and how many miles had it done?
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Scenario 1: poor workmanship from the initial installer.
Scenario 2: Alternators are a "consumable" item (to some degree) so fair wear and tear? How old and how many miles had it done?
it was a 2006 mondeo with 70K kms on the clock :-\
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scenario1 (real) : car misfires from time to time and looses power.. lpg installer says not related to them, sends to mechanic , mechanic says , change ignition components , you change the parts and problem continues ;D back to lpg installers they change injector set.. no problem visible for sometime and then.. problem continues back to mechanic .. cant find anything.. then some friend finds the problem with the sockets and finally all sockets changed with soldering them..
2 months later
scenario 2(real) : car looses power at high rpms, after several visits to several shops problem was found to be alternator..
just an example :-\
Poor diagnosis, unrelated to LPG. Generally, LPG faults are easy to isolate - run it on petrol.
it took 3 months for us to sort :(
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Scenario 1: poor workmanship from the initial installer.
Scenario 2: Alternators are a "consumable" item (to some degree) so fair wear and tear? How old and how many miles had it done?
it was a 2006 mondeo with 70K kms on the clock :-\
About right for a Ford alternator IME
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it took 3 months for us to sort :(
Intermittent faults can be a pain, but thats not specific to LPG. As said, LPG faults are normally easy to isolate/prove
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Scenario 1: poor workmanship from the initial installer.
Scenario 2: Alternators are a "consumable" item (to some degree) so fair wear and tear? How old and how many miles had it done?
it was a 2006 mondeo with 70K kms on the clock :-\
About right for a Ford alternator IME
yep.. very common (we learned after some search on the net)
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it took 3 months for us to sort :(
Intermittent faults can be a pain, but thats not specific to LPG. As said, LPG faults are normally easy to isolate/prove
LPG installers in big cities are so crowded that if you are not competent yourself , you are in trouble.. they generally dont give you interest.. they install it , take the money and after forget you!
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it took 3 months for us to sort :(
Intermittent faults can be a pain, but thats not specific to LPG. As said, LPG faults are normally easy to isolate/prove
LPG installers in big cities are so crowded that if you are not competent yourself , you are in trouble.. they generally dont give you interest.. they install it , take the money and after forget you!
Even so, still usually easy to isolate. Run it on petrol.
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Scenario 1: poor workmanship from the initial installer.
Scenario 2: Alternators are a "consumable" item (to some degree) so fair wear and tear? How old and how many miles had it done?
it was a 2006 mondeo with 70K kms on the clock :-\
About right for a Ford alternator IME
yep.. very common (we learned after some search on the net)
So you agree that it was nothing to do with the LPG then? ;)
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Scenario 1: poor workmanship from the initial installer.
Scenario 2: Alternators are a "consumable" item (to some degree) so fair wear and tear? How old and how many miles had it done?
it was a 2006 mondeo with 70K kms on the clock :-\
About right for a Ford alternator IME
yep.. very common (we learned after some search on the net)
So you agree that it was nothing to do with the LPG then? ;)
yep.. but when there is LPG installed the car becomes more sensitive to electrical problems.. besides most shops cant isolate the problem :-\
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yep.. but when there is LPG installed the car becomes more sensitive to electrical problems.. besides most shops cant isolate the problem :-\
Only HT problems ;)
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but when there is LPG installed the car becomes more sensitive to electrical problems.. besides most shops cant isolate the problem :-\
How so?
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but when there is LPG installed the car becomes more sensitive to electrical problems.. besides most shops cant isolate the problem :-\
How so?
as in our case.. :-\
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Don't agree how/why LPG running is more likely to cause electrical issues.
As long as its been wired in correctly, its just replacing petrol with gas. If there is a engine running fault, turn off gas. If it remains, you know its not LPG, if it goes away then you have an LPG fault. Easy to diagnose, but then again most garages appear to struggle with the basics! :(
Only possible issue is you use spark plugs quicker, as LPG requires stronger spark. In turn the coil pack / dis pack would have to work harder.
But number of us run LPG without issues :y
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Don't agree how/why LPG running is more likely to cause electrical issues.
As long as its been wired in correctly, its just replacing petrol with gas. If there is a engine running fault, turn off gas. If it remains, you know its not LPG, if it goes away then you have an LPG fault. Easy to diagnose, but then again most garages appear to struggle with the basics! :(
Only possible issue is you use spark plugs quicker, as LPG requires stronger spark. In turn the coil pack / dis pack would have to work harder.
But number of us run LPG without issues :y
running lpg dont cause electrical issues.. but lpg is more sensitive to electrical problems imo.. and besides installers using bad sockets/connectors, botched wiring cause more issues then we can guess.. :-\
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Don't agree how/why LPG running is more likely to cause electrical issues.
As long as its been wired in correctly, its just replacing petrol with gas. If there is a engine running fault, turn off gas. If it remains, you know its not LPG, if it goes away then you have an LPG fault. Easy to diagnose, but then again most garages appear to struggle with the basics! :(
Only possible issue is you use spark plugs quicker, as LPG requires stronger spark. In turn the coil pack / dis pack would have to work harder.
But number of us run LPG without issues :y
running lpg dont cause electrical issues.. but lpg is more sensitive to electrical problems imo.. and besides installers using bad sockets/connectors, botched wiring cause more issues then we can guess.. :-\
Thats not really specific to LPG. Poor workmanship will always cause problems.
IME, LPG isn't any more sensitive to electrical gremlins any more than the petrol injection system.
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If its been installed right, it will be fine.
Done 20k+ on LPG on mine without a problem, combined between us DIY Stag users we have clocked up 100,000+
Given UK's wet climate too, crap roads, salt, just shows a good install is key :y
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Full service/diagnostic check and reset on lpg £120 recommended once a year ...
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Full service/diagnostic check and reset on lpg £120 recommended once a year ...
Erhhh what? Who says that?
I'd like to know what the fek they spend £120 on :o
Filter (only service item) once a year is a bit OTT, they are barely a tenner?
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Me too ....
here (http://www.ecolpg.co.uk/lpg-conversion-prices)
:o
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Do the engines in the Omega range require any extra valve lubrication?
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Do the engines in the Omega range require any extra valve lubrication?
No, unlike others, like Ford, the valves can take it.
Many of us on DIY stag kits don't use any, but, I believe Entwood on his (non Stag) does.
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No.Tried & tested on many cars over long periods of time and high mileages and no-one has had any problems. :y
Must type faster etc. I believe the reason Entwoods car has it is because his installer fitted it as standard.Dont know if he uses it.
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That £120 'Service' gave me a bloody good laugh! ;D
at least Dick Turpin had the good grace to wear a mask! :D
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I dont know of anything on an LPG system which needs servicing as a matter of course tbh. :-\
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No.Tried & tested on many cars over long periods of time and high mileages and no-one has had any problems. :y
Must type faster etc. I believe the reason Entwoods car has it is because his installer fitted it as standard.Dont know if he uses it.
Absolutely correct .. and the reservoir is empty and has been for some considerable time .... ever since the bottle they supplied was used up .. :)
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Full service/diagnostic check and reset on lpg £120 recommended once a year ...
Erhhh what? Who says that?
I'd like to know what the fek they spend £120 on :o
Filter (only service item) once a year is a bit OTT, they are barely a tenner?
Not actually a bad price if they do it properly. 1 or 2 x vapour filter(s), 1 x Liquid Phase Filter, drain heavy ends, full leak test and component security, full road test and state of tune check plus any software updates as required. Filters are anywhere from £2 to £20 each (depending which one), up to 30 mins to change all filters and drain heavy ends (possibly more if tricky location ::)), leak test 5-10 mins, decent software check and road test 30-40 mins. So about 1.5 hours labour plus parts, plus VAT, £120 isn't too bad ;)
That said, I wouldn't pay it annually ::) ::)
Perhaps I should be offering it as a mobile service :-\ :-\
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Planning to get 2.2 running again, Elite is nice, but I miss my 2.2!
If you are planning to be over this way at any point, might time a visit back. As a little admin took the piss, suggested my mapping needs checking.
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Planning to get 2.2 running again, Elite is nice, but I miss my 2.2!
If you are planning to be over this way at any point, might time a visit back. As a little admin took the piss, suggested my mapping needs checking.
It is overdue a check ;) Unfortunately your car is converted with a borderline component so there will always be a compromise ;) More likely to be able to meet you up this way if you're taking it back to London ;) Not sure when I'll next be over that way... Not as easy to have a random weekend away now we have the hound to look after ;)
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No probs, just if you were about/heading over be good time make it at same time. Might be taking 2.2 to London, not sure yet.
Still drives on gas fine, after not being run for 8 months, it started and switched to gas, bit lumpy but ran :)
I do really need to get that bit of paper it needs, think if its pressed back into a commuting role (which could happen if I move out of London) might consider a beefier vaporiser :-\
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No probs, just if you were about/heading over be good time make it at same time. Might be taking 2.2 to London, not sure yet.
Still drives on gas fine, after not being run for 8 months, it started and switched to gas, bit lumpy but ran :)
I do really need to get that bit of paper it needs, think if its pressed back into a commuting role (which could happen if I move out of London) might consider a beefier vaporiser :-\
If you choose to do that then the inspection (if done before) will be invalid ;)
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No probs, just if you were about/heading over be good time make it at same time. Might be taking 2.2 to London, not sure yet.
Still drives on gas fine, after not being run for 8 months, it started and switched to gas, bit lumpy but ran :)
I do really need to get that bit of paper it needs, think if its pressed back into a commuting role (which could happen if I move out of London) might consider a beefier vaporiser :-\
If you choose to do that then the inspection (if done before) will be invalid ;)
Hummm good point :(
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I've been reading all this with interest.
A note on servicing, the guy doing my install, when I asked him if it was possible for someone like myself to do a general service on the LPG replied that to be honest, the only thing that might need servicing was the filter, but he rarely finds a dirty one. He suggested only changing it if problems started to occur.
Which many of you guys have pretty much said too.
Should be picking the car up saturday. Will report back.
Tim
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I've been reading all this with interest.
A note on servicing, the guy doing my install, when I asked him if it was possible for someone like myself to do a general service on the LPG replied that to be honest, the only thing that might need servicing was the filter, but he rarely finds a dirty one. He suggested only changing it if problems started to occur.
Which many of you guys have pretty much said too.
Should be picking the car up saturday. Will report back.
Tim
Thats settled that then :y Pretty much like taking your car to the stealers for a full service and paying full wack when it can be done diy :y
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I've been reading all this with interest.
A note on servicing, the guy doing my install, when I asked him if it was possible for someone like myself to do a general service on the LPG replied that to be honest, the only thing that might need servicing was the filter, but he rarely finds a dirty one. He suggested only changing it if problems started to occur.
Which many of you guys have pretty much said too.
Should be picking the car up saturday. Will report back.
Tim
Thats settled that then :y Pretty much like taking your car to the stealers for a full service and paying full wack when it can be done diy :y
Depending what system is used you might well be able to get the software and lead so you can also keep an eye on the setup ;) However, it will record any computer connected to it with a unique code and it may invalidate any warranty ;) Oh... And if you do ever decide to play, make sure you have made a note of everything and saved it (if you can) so you can refer back to it ::)
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Good point. The number of times I fiddled with stuff without making a note of how it was... <slaps forehead>
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Thought I'd keep you all updated.
My car was meant to be a week with the LPG chap, but he orders all his stuff bespoke and both the tank and valve got sent to the wrong 'hub' by the courier and didn't arrive on time. They managed to find the tank (it's bloody big enough!) but not the valve, so he ordered a new valve.
He had it ready for last monday in the end, but I couldn't get down there until saturday so he had it an extra week. He drove it in this time to check it all worked correctly.
It has been set to go to LPG quite quickly as I have a shortish commute, he got it to change over in about 1.3 miles. It went at 0.7 this morning. The roads here are much busier here than where he lives, so I get less distance done in the same amount of time!
Anyway, took the train to Petersfield, he met me at the station and we drove to the petrol station where he showed me how to fill up with gas. Then I dropped him off home and he showed me the work he's done.
I must say I'm very impressed with the quality of installation. I'm a perfectionist myself and I like things nice and neat. All the components were installed neatly, the wiring all properly routed and cable tied to secure it.
To be honest, if you didn't know it had LPG, you would find it hard to tell which parts under the bonnet are not OEM. I really don't think I could have done it any neater myself. Cheaper, yes, but better, no.
The pipes are neatly installed under the car. The tank is 71 litres and stands about an inch proud of the boot floor. I need to raise the carpet with some 50mm styrene.
It seems to run well. I gave it a good caning on the way home and it behaved very well. I think it is a tiny bit slower on gas than on petrol, but not so you would notice. This morning it was on gas by the first roundabout coming off my estate. I'm really surprised that you can't really tell if it is running on gas or petrol!
The only way to tell really is the light on the switch and the fact that the fuel gauge hasn't moved since I got the car back! Quite weird!
I'll take some pictures later in the week if the rain stops and post them up.
Tim
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
£500 and we have a deal :D
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Nice one , look forward to the pics ;)
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
£500 and we have a deal :D
Needs an extra 1 in front of that ;)
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
£500 and we have a deal :D
Needs an extra 1 in front of that ;)
£150.00? Excellent :y Do you take cash?
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
£500 and we have a deal :D
Needs an extra 1 in front of that ;)
£150.00? Excellent :y Do you take cash?
Who said add a decimal point? :D
£1.5k i'd sell it for, but I know its not worth that & would never achieve that price.
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My finger must have slipped as I was typing ;D
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Looking forward to pics, strangechap :y
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
The Elite is a very tidy example, except for engine tick. LPG it ;)
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Yup, lets see some pictures :y
I'm back on 2.2 gas now, much better on the wallet.
Anyone want to buy a 3.2 Elite? ;D
The Elite is a very tidy example, except for engine tick. LPG it ;)
Still to bond with it, 2.2 rides better, idles better, less engine noise, crashes about less too.
Really want to fix that tick when hot, bugs me >:(
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2.2 rides better .... crashes about less too.
Bejesus, the Elite must be bad then, as your 2.2 has one of the most knackered, sloppiest, dettached rides I've ever been experienced :o
I thought the Elite rode OK the other day, after giving it some springs that weren't knackered. Tyres were a bit shit, but didn't impact the ride.
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Well if you want to keep Elite Suspension, I will have a full set of springs and shocks for an Elite that haven't done many miles (will check if you are interested) from my 3.2 when I get round to fitting the B4's and Eibach springs.....
The rear springs and shocks are genuine GM and the front shocks are GM with KYB springs.
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2.2 rides better .... crashes about less too.
Bejesus, the Elite must be bad then, as your 2.2 has one of the most knackered, sloppiest, dettached rides I've ever been experienced :o
I thought the Elite rode OK the other day, after giving it some springs that weren't knackered. Tyres were a bit shit, but didn't impact the ride.
I must have experienced some rough 2.2s as well, as most of them seem to sound like a tractor in comparison to a 3.2 ;)
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2.2 rides better .... crashes about less too.
Bejesus, the Elite must be bad then, as your 2.2 has one of the most knackered, sloppiest, dettached rides I've ever been experienced :o
I thought the Elite rode OK the other day, after giving it some springs that weren't knackered. Tyres were a bit shit, but didn't impact the ride.
I must have experienced some rough 2.2s as well, as most of them seem to sound like a tractor in comparison to a 3.2 ;)
When hot, tunnie's 3.2 sounds like a Valtek injector 2" from your ear....
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2.2 rides better .... crashes about less too.
Bejesus, the Elite must be bad then, as your 2.2 has one of the most knackered, sloppiest, dettached rides I've ever been experienced :o
I thought the Elite rode OK the other day, after giving it some springs that weren't knackered. Tyres were a bit shit, but didn't impact the ride.
2.2 shocks all around are quite new, it's had new front ones if you remember. Don't think you have been in that many times? But in the lanes the ride feels better to me, maybe it's because I'm just so used to it after 7 years ownership :-\
2.2 is silent, 3k oil changes for 80k seen to that.
3.2's idles are so crap too. Feel vibration through pedal!
I really need to sort the tick :(
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2.2 rides better .... crashes about less too.
Bejesus, the Elite must be bad then, as your 2.2 has one of the most knackered, sloppiest, dettached rides I've ever been experienced :o
I thought the Elite rode OK the other day, after giving it some springs that weren't knackered. Tyres were a bit shit, but didn't impact the ride.
2.2 shocks all around are quite new, it's had new front ones if you remember. Don't think you have been in that many times? But in the lanes the ride feels better to me, maybe it's because I'm just so used to it after 7 years ownership :-\
2.2 is silent, 3k oil changes for 80k seen to that.
3.2's idles are so crap too. Feel vibration through pedal!
I really need to sort the tick :(
Wishbones? Bushes? Idler? TRE? More to it than shocks :)
DBW idle (inc 2.2) isn't usually as good as a well set up non DBW. If you can feel it through pedal, something is wrong, as there is no connection. Cleaning TB (and breathers whilst there) often sorts out a lot of it. Will still have a minor hunt, like all DBW
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2.2 wishbones as far as I can tell are original :o Steering idler is about 30k old, rear bushes original too.
Hopefully that placement o2 sensor will be better for the 3.2, the idle at times was very lumpy.
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2.2 wishbones as far as I can tell are original :o Steering idler is about 30k old, rear bushes original too.
Hopefully that placement o2 sensor will be better for the 3.2, the idle at times was very lumpy.
I know. Thats why its ride is so "1950s American Car".
Have you cleaned the TB?
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2.2 wishbones as far as I can tell are original :o Steering idler is about 30k old, rear bushes original too.
Hopefully that placement o2 sensor will be better for the 3.2, the idle at times was very lumpy.
I know. Thats why its ride is so "1950s American Car".
Have you cleaned the TB?
Word is smooth ;D
Not on 3.2, assumed big fatty would have done it.
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2.2 wishbones as far as I can tell are original :o Steering idler is about 30k old, rear bushes original too.
Hopefully that placement o2 sensor will be better for the 3.2, the idle at times was very lumpy.
I know. Thats why its ride is so "1950s American Car".
Have you cleaned the TB?
Word is smooth ;D
Not on 3.2, assumed big fatty would have done it.
Word is dettached. Or if I was being unkind, unsafe ::)
AFAIK, it was parked up for several months. So defo worth doing, esp as you've now used it for a year.
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Well people, pictures as promised.
Filled up for the second time Tuesday. Got exactly 200 miles from the first fill. 16.4mpg. 55L fill @78p per litre = £43. I think thats 21p per mile?
I should really have taken better note of the cost on petrol, but not having had the car long I'd not got round to it. I was getting about 18-19mpg though.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010197.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010196.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010194.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010193.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010192.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010191.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010190.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010189.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010188.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010187.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af148/tmarotto/P1010186.jpg)
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Hmm :-\ not sure about that at all. Not a pipe clip in sight, and I take it the tank is bolted from underneath.. :-X
Does it perform as expected, any noticable difference on gas? Where is the valvebox on the tank as it's not obvious in the pic :-\
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Oh dear :-X :-X :-X
Is that a certified, professional conversion and on the register at www.drivelpg.co.uk ? ???
I can see at least 2 or 3 failure points from those pictures ::) ::)
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Me too and Im far from an expert. :(
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Not to mention several bad practices too ::)
Strangechap... As a matter of urgency I suggest you check the security of the tank. Those brackets don't look man enough to stop that tank coming forwards and hitting you on the back with massive force should you have a high speed impact :o
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Is it me or are those injectors a long way back, the vapour has a long way to travel?
Also the fuel is injected at the top of the inlet manifold? At the widest point? :-\
OOF way is to drill & tap them as low down as possible...
Who did the converstion & how much as it?
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Is it me or are those injectors a long way back, the vapour has a long way to travel?
Also the fuel is injected at the top of the inlet manifold? At the widest point? :-\
OOF way is to drill & tap them as low down as possible...
Who did the converstion & how much as it?
Nothing wrong with that assuming (which it must have to run right) it is using straws ;) Not the tidiest, but OK ;)
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Is it me or are those injectors a long way back, the vapour has a long way to travel?
Also the fuel is injected at the top of the inlet manifold? At the widest point? :-\
OOF way is to drill & tap them as low down as possible...
Who did the converstion & how much as it?
Nothing wrong with that assuming (which it must have to run right) it is using straws ;) Not the tidiest, but OK ;)
Ah, didn't think of that. :-[
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O-oh. Fuel lines :(
...and may as well drill the manifold, and site the nozzles near the petrol injectors.
Shouldn't take much to sort. But that shouldn't pass an inspection. :(
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The injectors do use straws.
The tank is also bolted down underneath too.
I think the valves are next on the tank but fairly well tucked away. You can see some stuff from underneath the car, but I couldn't get a pic of it.
So what failure points do you see? It all looked pretty tidy to me, but I have no experience of the regs for this.
I did wonder about the ties underneath, but then good quality cable ties are pretty damn strong and don't corrode.
As far as performance goes, it's lost a bit of power, but not a huge amount. Runs like it did before.
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Immediate non COP11 points are fuel lines not correctly attached, and gas pipes too near exhaust (EGR).
Not a failure, but the Y piece isn't going to allow decent flow to bank 1/3/5 ?
Is it on the LPG register, as that shouldn't have passed IMHO.
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The injectors do use straws.
The tank is also bolted down underneath too.
I think the valves are next on the tank but fairly well tucked away. You can see some stuff from underneath the car, but I couldn't get a pic of it.
So what failure points do you see? It all looked pretty tidy to me, but I have no experience of the regs for this.
I did wonder about the ties underneath, but then good quality cable ties are pretty damn strong and don't corrode.
As far as performance goes, it's lost a bit of power, but not a huge amount. Runs like it did before.
Cable ties are specifically mentioned as not suitable in the regs... The go brittle ;) Must be metal pipe clips :y
Vapour hose runs within 150mm of exhaust (looks like it may be resting against the EGR :o) without heat shielding.
That's the 2 big fails I can spot instantly ;) Several bad practices, including the injector pipes being different lengths, injectors not mounted vertically and, my pet hate, ECU in scuttle box ::)
If it's lost any power (noticeably) then it's also not set up correctly or not man enough ::) The Stag kits I/we have fitted give no loss of power when correctly set up ;)
I'd also check on the tank mounting... I don't know of any tanks with securing lugs bother top and bottom so I'd say it's been secured by a few weedy brackets :-\ Are there any spreader plates underneath?
I'm also suspicious of the coolant plumbing... Can't tell from the picture but it looks like it's been plumbed after the HBV, which may well cause issues under certain heater settings.
I'd need to look it over properly but I bet there's more :(
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Thanks for pointing those out chaps.
I'll look into those in more detail.
It is on the register, the guy is a registered installer. I must say I'm surprised, he seemed to really know what he was on about. I thought the install looked pretty neat.
I will tackle him on those points and see what he says.
Thanks for all your comments.
Tim
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Immediate non COP11 points are fuel lines not correctly attached, and gas pipes too near exhaust (EGR).
Not a failure, but the Y piece isn't going to allow decent flow to bank 1/3/5 ?
Is it on the LPG register, as that shouldn't have passed IMHO.
That should, in theory, be OK because it's vapour under pressure but at full chat it could be problematic :-\ I wonder what the Fuel Trims look like ::)
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Tim, I'm not trying to cause issues, but you've parted with a large sum of money and I guarantee that if you took that for an independent inspection it wouldn't pass ::)
This is the trouble with UKLPG registration for installers... They pay a large sum of money to UKLPG and are allowed to certify bad workmanship which gives LPG in general a bad name >:( >:(
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Agreed on all points. If you did a DIY install to that standard you'd never in a month of sundays get it certified. :(
This is what makes UKLPG worthless. No auditing of their installers. :( If that were mine I'd also send those photos, highlighting the areas that are clearly not according to the UKLPG COP, to UKLPG and ask them to comment. Would be very interesting. At least threaten to do this if the installer doesn't agree to resolve the issues you have. By rights, they should suspend his certification, but I suspect they'll do nothing. ::)
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You cynic Kev :-X ::)
Tim, if you need it I can supply you with the relevant sections of COP 11, although it will take me a while to get it sorted for you :-[
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I am relatively new to LPG too. But straight away I could spot a few problems as the others have said.
Worryingly the cable ties are a COP 11 failure.
And the tank is odd, why are the mounting brackets pointing upwards and not secure?
The straws approach is a lazy and easy way out, though some may argue that there is nothing wrong with straws.
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I am relatively new to LPG too. But straight away I could spot a few problems as the others have said.
Worryingly the cable ties are a COP 11 failure.
And the tank is odd, why are the mounting brackets pointing upwards and not secure?
The straws approach is a lazy and easy way out, though some may argue that there is nothing wrong with straws.
There is nothing wrong with them and in some applications they are a necessity... But in the Omega they are, as you rightly say, a cop out and used as a time saver. It means that any future "Plenum off" work needs special attention upon reassembly ::)
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Important thing now is, the owner takes the right approach in getting it sorted. Which he seems to be, bless him. :y
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Important thing now is, the owner takes the right approach in getting it sorted. Which he seems to be, bless him. :y
Depending on exactly where he is in Berkshire, do you fancy (and more to the point, have time) to give it a quick look over? At least then he can go back armed with some knowledge
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Important thing now is, the owner takes the right approach in getting it sorted. Which he seems to be, bless him. :y
Depending on exactly where he is in Berkshire, do you fancy (and more to the point, have time) to give it a quick look over? At least then he can go back armed with some knowledge
yes we could compare, but I've got two days that aren't 12hour shifts or I'm out of the country, until mid November. :(
Although if near Reading or Slough... :y
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Thanks for all your concern chaps. I must say, I'm pretty gutted that you've all spotted so many problems. I had a bit of sleepless night last night after reading all your comments.
I do appreciate you all being so honest in your opinions.
I'm going to have a quick look to see if I can find a copy of these COP 11 regs. @lazydocker, hold fire for now, I appreciate the offer but don't want to put you to any trouble just yet.
I'm going to call the installer today and run it all past him. See what he suggests. I'm pretty p!ssed off to be honest. I did a good amount of research into the LPG thing and I've taken a lot of stick from the missus who thought I would be better off getting a diesel car instead (she hates Omegas too :o ) I've also parted with a lot of money, for what I thought would be a top notch installation.
The installer really came across as knowing what he was doing. I'm not going to mention his name just yet because I think it fair that I give him the opportunity to sort out the problems. I'm hoping he will do that.
@chrisgixer, I'm from Reading. Reading is no problem. My availability is also a bit limited and I don't want to put you to any trouble, but if we are both free at the same time, I would very much appreciate a bit of your time. I'm about saturday AM and sunday.
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Tim, the only real safety concern is the security of the tank, which is probably fine but hard to tell from pictures ;)
The other things aren't majorly urgent. I'm sorry that our observations have caused a sleepless night :-[ Mostly it's just not as tidy as I would expect but the security of the fuel line is definitely a fail ;)
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Sunday mid day is fine. So far.
Don't worry too much, provided its set up ok, cop 11 is fussy, but it's a standard he should stick to. That's what you've paid for.
Cirtainly not worth a sleepless night.
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Oh don't worry, I've got a lot of other sh!t that kept me up too, this was one of the things whizzing around my head along with everything else.
Don't worry, I'm not panicking, but I am a bit annoyed about the install.
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Oh don't worry, I've got a lot of other sh!t that kept me up too, this was one of the things whizzing around my head along with everything else.
Don't worry, I'm not panicking, but I am a bit annoyed about the install.
Tim, the installation is certainly not the worst I've seen. It seems pretty tidy apart from the things we have pointed out ;)
Don't let it bother you too much, just make sure the guy puts it right :y
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It didn't look like there were any rubber grommets where the hoses exit the chassis, either, to me? I'd want some there to prevent chafing..
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It didn't look like there were any rubber grommets where the hoses exit the chassis, either, to me? I'd want some there to prevent chafing..
There should already be grommets in the holes... At least there have been on any conversions I've done :-\
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It didn't look like there were any rubber grommets where the hoses exit the chassis, either, to me? I'd want some there to prevent chafing..
There should already be grommets in the holes... At least there have been on any conversions I've done :-\
That hole looks freshly drilled to me.
I think I fed mine through a hole that had been drilled but plugged with a blanking plug. Grommets.. That reminds me, actually. :-[ :-X
Anyway, nothing wrong there that is imminently dangerous, as said, and, to be honest, if you don't get any joy with the installer there is plenty of expertise available on here to help you sort it. I know it's galling to pay a lot of money for something substandard but it's not the end of the world. :y
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So it does... Just looked again :-[ ::)
Looked at the tank picture again... It looks like it's only secured by 2 (flimsy looking) brackets at the front, which worries me a lot as it could easily break free in an impact :o
It really grips my sh!t that these "Professional, Registered" installers can bang out sub-standard work and certify it as compliant when it blatantly isn't >:( >:(
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Ok chaps, I've phoned the installer, and I don't think you're going to like what he said.
But I don't disagree with what he says and I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure many of you will disagree and I'm cool with that. I'm respecting everyones opinion.
I asked him about these points:
Ties used to hold fuel lines on.
He said: Yes, they do contravene COP-11. However, he doesn't agree with the regulations in this case. He installs the fuel lines with ties because they don't corrode and they don't cause rust where the holes are drilled to attach metal hose clips. He has argued with UKLPG over this many times. He has installed many systems over the last 12 years and never had any issues. He said there are plenty of well mounted fuel lines already underneath to attach to.
Tank securing
The tank is properly secured into the spare wheel well. It is attached at the top and bottom. The loads around the bolts are spread with 3mm thick washers of at least 2 inch diameter.
Vapour hose too close to EGR
Yes, the hose is closer than the stipulated 150mm, but he argues the EGR is not at as high temperature as an exhaust manifold and the hose is close to the actuator which doesn't reach the same temps.
I need to have a look at this myself at the weekend.
He stated that he has argued with UKPLG several times about regulations he doesn't think are right, yet he has still been presented awards for some of his installs. He says that just because UKPLG say it, doesn't mean it's right. He's been doing LPG for 12 years and was a mechanic and engineer before that. He feels that he knows what he's talking about. He is very proud of his work and very patiently explained everything to me.
On the subject of straws, he maintains that rather than being a cop out, he feels it allows him to calibrate the injectors better. I got a bit lost here as it was windy outside and I couldn't hear so well.
I was bit worried about tackling him on the issue. I'm not the sort of chap who shies away from confrontation however, but he was very professional and sympathetic to my concerns and took the time to explain his reasoning behind the parts of the install. He made no attempt to fob me off. I've dealt with some bullsh!tters in my time and he really doesn't come across as one. He is obviously proud of his work and is capable of backing up his install with reasons for doing things the way he does them. I don't believe the points you all very kindly brought up were due to his ignorance or laziness, but were done with a genuine reasoning behind them.
I'm not quite sure what to do now. On one hand I have you chaps, who obviously know what you are talking about, on the other I have a professional installer, who I truly believe also knows what he is talking about, but both with different opinions. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. ???
Hmm.
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Whilst I don't disagree with some of his comments... Cable ties may not corrode but they do go brittle ::) The excuse about holes is a bit of a joke when he's drilled through the "chassis" out legger and not treated the hole.
As for his comments on the EGR... Pure 'dangle berries'! Where he has run the pipe gets very hot ::) Certainly hot enough to melt a rubber hose ;)
Straws... As I said... Not really wrong but, once again, he's made up some 'dangle berries' about it... My (and most others) injectors are in the manifold, right next to the petrol injectors and they run perfectly with no power loss at all ::)
Tank security... Benefit of the doubt... As I said, can't really tel from the photo but he's quoted the correct figures for the spreaders :y
Where to go? Sounds like you either accept it or get UKLPG involved, probably having to put things right yourself in the future.
I actually agree with some of his comments, but the fact remains that it doesn't comply with COP 11 ;) I agree that a lot of it is overkill, but they are the standards it is supposed to be fitted to ;) I'm surprised that standard of workmanship took so long TBH ::) We can do it to the required standard in less time, and we aren't professionals ::)
Your call really ;) I wouldn't lose any sleep over it but it's worth mentioning the power loss as it shouldn't be there ::)
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Problem with cable ties are that they go brittle. I don't like the idea of rust either, but I hate the idea of lines carrying liquid lpg being unsecured beneath the car in the future.
As long as the tank is secure its all good. Oddly the tank seems to be a underbody tank that has been modified for internal use? Or maybe its the picture?
I am not sure how straws help calibrate better? They do make plenum removal/replacement more tricky. But thats not a problem at all as long the car runs perfectly.
The one thing I do not understand though. Is your installer saying that he signed off the installation and added it to the register despite the contraventions? If so he seems to be openly flouting the regulations?
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The one thing I do not understand though. Is your installer saying that he signed off the installation and added it to the register despite the contraventions? If so he seems to be openly flouting the regulations?
Because he can ;) ::) I bet if I took that in to him and said I'd fitted it he wouldn't sign it off ::) Jobs for the boys >:( >:(
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All trade association or professional bodies, I've belonged to, you have to agree to abide by the rules.
You may not agree with them, but you MUST obey them or you leave yourself open to be disciplined by them or in a more serious breach non-compliance would form a powerful case if you were prosecuted under health and safety laws or worse and in my view quite rightly so.
Normally regulations are drawn up by people with much experience in the relevant area with the use of accident and failure reports by the police, fire brigade and other interested parties. The regulations are drawn up and then circulated for comment from people within the industry, before they are enacted. Now if the regulations are found to be flawed, they go through the same process to produce a revised set of regulations and so on. Now by not complying this installer is ignoring all of this experience and IMHO is using a very arrogant I know best attitude, which I have seen before with disastrous results.
If it was me I would be asking him to provide MTBF (mean time between failure) figures for the use of cable clips compared to metal clips, when they are used in the environment you are using them in, with them subjected many different chemicals of salt, oil grease, anti-freeze, oil, diesel to name but a few and also hot and cold temperature cycling etc, etc. If he can't his experience is limited to that nobody has come back to him with a failure so far, not very reassuring is it. :o :o :o Because all of these sorts of things have to be specified and tested by car manufactures, is why it costs over £1bn of R&D to produce a completely new model. What is his R&D budget and testing program for the bits that don't comply with the COP II regulations to make sure they are safe? My money would be on a budget of zero and his R&D is suck it and see. :o :o :o :o
Personally, I think now that you know it does not comply with COP II, it puts you in a very awkward position, unless you insist the regulations are complied with by the installer or you take it up with the regulatory body.
This is why:
Many serious and bad transport accidents are normally caused by a series of events. With the Titanic, it was the number of lifeboats reduced from that original design, the changed specification to cheaper inferior rivets, that were too brittle, a rudder that was too small, an officer with the crows nest binoculars key, leaving at the last minute the ship before it sailed from Southampton and taking the key with him, a fire in no 1 coal hold which weakened the bulkhead, where the coal was loaded too quickly and not damped down enough, if this bulkhead had held longer, several ships that arrived a few hours after she had sunk, may of got there in time, the officer on the bridge trying to avoid the iceberg (standard practice with mail ship), rather than hitting it straight on, him putting the engines in reverse, which stopped the central propeller, which provides thrust past the rudder, which makes the ship turn better, a radio message on ice not given to the captain, and an adjacent ship ignoring distress signals and their radio was turned off and of course a ship and iceberg in the wrong places at the wrong time. A lot of factors.
No image you do nothing and in a few years you sell on the car. When the new owner is driving a couple of cable ties break through brittle fracture, so the pipe is dragging along the ground, which causes a leak. There is a tank solenoid valve, to turn the gas off when the engine stops but it is faulty and doesn't seal properly. The new owner parks it in his garage overnight, so all the gas leaks out, into a vapour layer on the floor. The next day goes to the garage through the house to garage door, which automatically shuts behind him (building regulations mean you must have an automatic closure mechanism), The garage has no windows, which would act as a blast vent, so it is a contained space which will maximise the blast effect, his walking into the garage, kicks up the gas from the floor, he then turns on the light, which arcs and there is a big explosion. The explosion kills the new owner and injures members of his family. The garage side wall collapses into the neighbours garden, where a 5 year olds birthday party is being held. The wall collapses on them causing many causalities.
When it is being investigated, one of the children was related to an OOF member who recognized the instillation pictures shown in the press and passed this thread to them. Imagine when there is a knock on your door by the investigators how you would stand legally and how many nights sleep you would lose?
Now I have told you above and what I would personally do and why. It is up to you what you do and I very much hope that whatever you decide, it works out fine and you have no problems now or in the future. Good luck.
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Problem with UKPLG, formerly LPGA (probably changed its name, due to bad reputation, like CORGI), is that its entirely set up to keep the work/profit in a small group of people, shutting others out.
There is no LEGAL reason for an LPG car to be certified (although UKLPG are successful in badgering insurers), although common sense dictates that you have had it checked for safety. Virtually all installers are thorough in their checking... ...unless it's their own work ;)
If I'd have presented the car in the pics above to my certifier, it would have failed, as it doesn't comply with COP11.
However, as others said, its not uncommon to see laziness/poor workmanship from professional installers with the capability to self-certify.
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All trade association or professional bodies, I've belonged to, you have to agree to abide by the rules.
You may not agree with them, but you MUST obey them or you leave yourself open to be disciplined by them or in a more serious breach non-compliance would form a powerful case if you were prosecuted under health and safety laws or worse and in my view quite rightly so.
Normally regulations are drawn up by people with much experience in the relevant area with the use of accident and failure reports by the police, fire brigade and other interested parties....
You are correct, of course, although I doubt there has been any serious technical expertise and endless testing applied to the UKLPG COP. They simply aren't that professional an organisation. The fact that registered installers feel they can get away with making their own decisions on what's acceptable is down to UKLPG's complete disinterest in auditing their members and investigating complaints against them. They are more interested in collecting their fees and lobbying insurers to continue their gravy train. A trade organisation that doesn't keep its' members honest is as much use as a chocolate kettle IMHO.
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crikey, I've just read this thread from start to finish..... :o
As for our experiences, as you know I bought my Omega ready converted (install done in
2000 when car was new), and this year I had my LPG system serviced, which included having
a leak fixed, and they relived me of £242 !! If I'd realised that an LPG service is just a ruddy
filter, I would have done it myself - but they did sort the leak out, so I spose thats something.
We had our V6 Renault Avantime converted by Fox's in Derby in 2009. Sadly Peter doesn't do
conversions anymore, but he's a really knowledgeable chap, and he did the Avi for £1500 including
a flash lube system. The Avi's conversion paid for itself in fuel savings in 10,000 miles (a years
motoring), and we get a (woohoo) whole £20 a year off our road tax as its now registered as an
'alternative fuel car'. We'll never sell the Avantime, she's a keeper, but we wanted to be able to afford
to drive the car rather then leaving it parked up in the garage as an expensive ornament.
I hope 'Strangechap' can get the issues with his car and its install resolved successfully and amicably.
As for cable ties, I've noticed lately that they are often supplied with steering gaiter boots and CV boots,
but we always put metal ones on as I've lost count of the number of times the cable ties have failed when
a car has gone for MOT/MOT Re-Test after fitting (no matter how tight you fit them).
Claire
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crikey, I've just read this thread from start to finish..... :o
As for our experiences, as you know I bought my Omega ready converted (install done in
2000 when car was new), and this year I had my LPG system serviced, which included having
a leak fixed, and they relived me of £242 !! If I'd realised that an LPG service is just a ruddy
filter, I would have done it myself - but they did sort the leak out, so I spose thats something.
We had our V6 Renault Avantime converted by Fox's in Derby in 2009. Sadly Peter doesn't do
conversions anymore, but he's a really knowledgeable chap, and he did the Avi for £1500 including
a flash lube system. The Avi's conversion paid for itself in fuel savings in 10,000 miles (a years
motoring), and we get a (woohoo) whole £20 a year off our road tax as its now registered as an
'alternative fuel car'. We'll never sell the Avantime, she's a keeper, but we wanted to be able to afford
to drive the car rather then leaving it parked up in the garage as an expensive ornament.
I hope 'Strangechap' can get the issues with his car and its install resolved successfully and amicably.
As for cable ties, I've noticed lately that they are often supplied with steering gaiter boots and CV boots,
but we always put metal ones on as I've lost count of the number of times the cable ties have failed when
a car has gone for MOT/MOT Re-Test after fitting (no matter how tight you fit them).
Claire
:o :o :o :o :o :o
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I think we are likely giving the op a heart attack tbh. There's nothing there that can't be sorted, one way or another.
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and this year I had my LPG system serviced, which included having
a leak fixed, and they relived me of £242 !! If I'd realised that an LPG service is just a ruddy
filter, I would have done it myself - but they did sort the leak out, so I spose thats something.
Claire
:o :o :o :o :o :o
My invoice from LPG Conversions, Heanor, Derbyshire:
Labour:
Service Prins VSI LPG System £105.00
Check LPG system for leaks & replace pipes
and make and fit new Prins Injector Bracket £50.00
Parts:
180-80040 Prins VSI Inline filter kit old style
Prins VSI LPG Pipes £23.40
39.2 litres of Autogas £24.51
Total: £202.91
VAT: £40.58
Invoice: £243.49
I'm assuming the LPG Service price included the filter.......
So, knock off the full tank of gas (it ran out on way there, so I told them to fill it up),
and the service and repair of the system cost me £218.98.
Needless to say, I'll be 'servicing' it myself from now on...........
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I think we are likely giving the op a heart attack tbh. There's nothing there that can't be sorted, one way or another.
Indeed, although the power loss is concerning, esp if its going lean due to flow...
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I think we are likely giving the op a heart attack tbh. There's nothing there that can't be sorted, one way or another.
Indeed, although the power loss is concerning, esp if its going lean due to flow...
That's my biggest concern ;) At the end of the day, it's no hardship to stick a few pipe clips up if the OP chooses to (bearing in mind that COP 11 says 600mm spacing :o :o)
Rods' example is good, if not a bit extreme ::) At the end of the day, the LPG line is also clipped into the standard Vx clips underneath that the petrol lines are in ;)
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:o
I know my Omega handles like a big old boat, but I'd never likened it to the Titanic!
You're all right of course.
I checked the tank, it's well bolted to the boot floor. Big old chunky load spreaders too. I'm happy it's not going to leap out and attack me.
I think the best course of action is for me to ask the installer to add some pipe clips. Belt and braces. I'm also going to ask for the tubing to be rerouted further from the EGR, or a heat shield added as I agree with Lazydocker, it does indeed get very hot. The one on the Trans Am has bitten me a couple of times when I've got too close (I've now blocked it off with a plate hehe)
There's not a lot to be done with the straws. What I will do though is properly test the acceleration of the car on both gas and petrol. Probably not conclusive, but will allow me to have a better idea of any power loss on gas. I'm really not sure at the moment whether the power loss is imagined or real. The thing still goes like a bomb on gas when I plant it. Just need to quantify it properly.
Judging by some of the stories I've read, I'm guessing whoever I'd got to install this would have done a similar, or possibly poorer quality install. Unfortunately I wasn't in a position to install it myself. I stand by my decision to use the guy I did, even though his install is not up to the COP-11 standards in some areas, he is very approachable, friendly guy. I have no doubts he will comply with my requests and stand by his 2 year guarantee.
Thank you all again for your frank (and slightly scary at times :o ) opinions on the matter, and for taking the time to give me advice.
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Sounds reasonable. I'm sure one of us locals will be happy to check it's basically mapped "safely" from a point of view of running lean, and comment on how it's running on LPG, if you're concerned. That's really all you need to worry about, aside from the aforementioned routing of pipes, etc.
Sadly, I think every "professional" LPG install bar one (which cost north of £2k) that we have seen on this forum has had some shortcomings, so you are absolutely correct that there would have been a few snags, whoever did the install. Some of the butchery that goes on is unbelievable, so think yourself lucky in that respect.
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Yeah, did lots of research into installers and I found some real horror stories. Especially the chap on this forum who has his experience on his website! (Martin Imber?)
The car does run well on LPG, which I am pleased about. I'll get the other bits sorted.
I would be really interested to have a local member check out the mapping.
I take it running lean is bad? Certainly on petrol it makes an engine run hotter doesn't it. I assume a similar result with gas?
Once I get some 0-60 and 50-70 times, I'll be in a better position to see if it is slower. The only time I thought I noticed was on a dual carriage way and I accelerated hard to 80 for an overtake and I wanted it to get there quicker, but it may well have been my imagination.
Just need to find a quiet road now. They are few and far between these days!
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Yeah, did lots of research into installers and I found some real horror stories. Especially the chap on this forum who has his experience on his website! (Martin Imber?)
The car does run well on LPG, which I am pleased about. I'll get the other bits sorted.
I would be really interested to have a local member check out the mapping.
I take it running lean is bad? Certainly on petrol it makes an engine run hotter doesn't it. I assume a similar result with gas?
Once I get some 0-60 and 50-70 times, I'll be in a better position to see if it is slower. The only time I thought I noticed was on a dual carriage way and I accelerated hard to 80 for an overtake and I wanted it to get there quicker, but it may well have been my imagination.
Just need to find a quiet road now. They are few and far between these days!
Hot engine is the least of your worries ;) ;)
I'd be more worried about melting my piston crowns :'(
Chuffed its working ok.
Now you can enjoy half price fuel :D
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Cheers.
I saved 25 quid last week.
And I feel no guilt from putting my foot down either. I can no longer hear that little wheezing scream coming from my wallet when I do!
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You're taking the right attitude ;)
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Yes that's the "problem" with LPG, if that's a problem at all, in that feet get heavy.
But then, that's what the General intended. :y
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Whilst I can't say I drive any harder (or slower) on LPG, you do lose the worry that you're drinking petrol. At 74.9p (around here), who gives a damn ;)
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Scary thing is, I can remember when bloody petrol was that price. And I'm only 39.
Seemed expensive even then though.
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Scary thing is, I can remember when bloody petrol was that price. And I'm only 39.
Seemed expensive even then though.
If you're 39 you should remember it being cheaper than that... I can ;) ;)
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I can remember when it was 50p per gallon in the mid 70,s. It hit £1 per gallon around 1979 and everyone thought it was the end of modern civilisation. ::)
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I can remember when it was 50p per gallon in the mid 70,s. It hit £1 per gallon around 1979 and everyone thought it was the end of modern civilisation. ::)
Yeah... But you're really old :P :P :D
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And you can can fook orff. :P :D
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I can remember when it was 50p per gallon in the mid 70,s. It hit £1 per gallon around 1979 and everyone thought it was the end of modern civilisation. ::)
Yeah... But you're really old :P :P :D
Christ that means I am as well :-\
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I can remember when it was 50p per gallon in the mid 70,s. It hit £1 per gallon around 1979 and everyone thought it was the end of modern civilisation. ::)
Yeah... But you're really old :P :P :D
Christ that means I am as well :-\
Nah... Just checked your profile and Albs is at least twice your age :-X :P ;)
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I can remember when it was 50p per gallon in the mid 70,s. It hit £1 per gallon around 1979 and everyone thought it was the end of modern civilisation. ::)
Yeah... But you're really old :P :P :D
Christ that means I am as well :-\
Nah... Just checked your profile and Albs is at least twice your age :-X :P ;)
Lol :D ;D ;D
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Fack the fook off. >:(
:P ;D
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Fack the fook off. >:(
:P ;D
:-X :-X :-X :D :D :D
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I remember there was 1 petrol station that sold the 5* that my Mum's Fiat needed. And that was quite pricey.
Said station was shut down, after being caught more than once for watering down fuel. I remember a life of octane boosters ;D
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Actually I can remember when it was cheaper than that. I have a receipt still for my Cortina, which was £12 to fill up!
This might be of interest:
www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html
Quite startling!
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lol, I can remember my first car in 1989, a battered 1978 Mini 850, and ten quids worth of 2 star would fill it up (around £1.50 a gallon then).
When I was feeling really flush I'd treat it to 3 star 8)
Ten years ago, I could fill the DeLorean up for less then £30, now its pushing £60 :o And thats without the plutonium for the flux capacitor.......
Claire
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lol, I can remember my first car in 1989, a battered 1978 Mini 850, and ten quids worth of 2 star would fill it up (around £1.50 a gallon then).
When I was feeling really flush I'd treat it to 3 star 8)
Ten years ago, I could fill the DeLorean up for less then £30, now its pushing £60 :o And thats without the plutonium for the flux capacitor.......
Claire
Can't you go back and fill up in 1955 or something? ;D
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:y ;D ;D ;D
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Haha! Best reply ever.
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lol, I can remember my first car in 1989, a battered 1978 Mini 850, and ten quids worth of 2 star would fill it up (around £1.50 a gallon then).
When I was feeling really flush I'd treat it to 3 star 8)
Ten years ago, I could fill the DeLorean up for less then £30, now its pushing £60 :o And thats without the plutonium for the flux capacitor.......
Claire
Can't you go back and fill up in 1955 or something? ;D
;D :y :y
I have had the pleasure of riding in Claire's time machine. Totally awesome... And she can drive it ;) :y :y
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Sweet. They're such a unique car.
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Right, on the subject of LPG..... who is up for helping me convert a 6-cyl XJR. 8)
I'll be buggered if I am going to pay £110 to regularly fill up the petrol tank :o
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Right, on the subject of LPG..... who is up for helping me convert a 6-cyl XJR. 8)
I'll be buggered if I am going to pay £110 to regularly fill up the petrol tank :o
Depending when & where, sure gadget hands here could help :y
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Right, on the subject of LPG..... who is up for helping me convert a 6-cyl XJR. 8)
I'll be buggered if I am going to pay £110 to regularly fill up the petrol tank :o
Depending when & where, sure gadget hands here could help :y
Thanks Mark :y
I'm back next week and I'll be erm busy ::) most of the week, so I will make a start (access to Teilo permitting) the week after. It's tank and fuel line first, then front end and the loom :y
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Right, on the subject of LPG..... who is up for helping me convert a 6-cyl XJR. 8)
I'll be buggered if I am going to pay £110 to regularly fill up the petrol tank :o
Depending when & where, sure gadget hands here could help :y
Thanks Mark :y
I'm back next week and I'll be erm busy ::) most of the week, so I will make a start (access to Teilo permitting) the week after. It's tank and fuel line first, then front end and the loom :y
Getting hold of him can be challenging, but can be done ;)
Depending on timings I might be able to lend a hand, although I'm not really in a fit state to be doing too much physical work at the moment :'(
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Thanks Mark :y
I'm back next week and I'll be erm busy ::) most of the week, so I will make a start (access to Teilo permitting) the week after. It's tank and fuel line first, then front end and the loom :y
I will be happy to lend a hand too. :y
Actually, I could do with retrieving my taps and dies from you when you get back. No desperate rush, though. Got a job on the back burner that needs a thread on it.
Oh, and don't forget to schedule in that brew day. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/party0016.gif)
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Right, on the subject of LPG..... who is up for helping me convert a 6-cyl XJR. 8)
I'll be buggered if I am going to pay £110 to regularly fill up the petrol tank :o
Depending when & where, sure gadget hands here could help :y
Thanks Mark :y
I'm back next week and I'll be erm busy ::) most of the week, so I will make a start (access to Teilo permitting) the week after. It's tank and fuel line first, then front end and the loom :y
Getting hold of him can be challenging, but can be done ;)
Depending on timings I might be able to lend a hand, although I'm not really in a fit state to be doing too much physical work at the moment :'(
Paul, knowing how busy you are I appreciate the offer but your back comes first :y
Would really relish getting together for a catch-up over a curry or two (I owe KW at least one trip to vindaloo nirvana) :y
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Ahh! Someone mentioned curry. :y
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Thanks Mark :y
I'm back next week and I'll be erm busy ::) most of the week, so I will make a start (access to Teilo permitting) the week after. It's tank and fuel line first, then front end and the loom :y
I will be happy to lend a hand too. :y
Actually, I could do with retrieving my taps and dies from you when you get back. No desperate rush, though. Got a job on the back burner that needs a thread on it.
Oh, and don't forget to schedule in that brew day. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/party0016.gif)
I haven't forgotten the taps and dies, sorry for not getting them back to you on R&R. Time got the better of me thanks to light blue bringing my flight forward, tinkers! >:(
Brewday looks promising 28 Oct if you are available :y
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No problem. I'd forgotten about them anyway. ;D
28th sounds good to me. :y
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Did someone mention curry ::)
Can't lift anything heavy, or stay bent over for long (ooo-errr missus), but I'm sure there are jobs that involve neither.
(Tunnie's 4 pot cambelt was enough for me to have to make excuses and leave early, getting him to rebuild camcover etc :-[)
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If I can be of assistance count me in :y I might even learn something ::)
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Did someone mention curry ::)
Can't lift anything heavy, or stay bent over for long (ooo-errr missus), but I'm sure there are jobs that involve neither.
We're both in the same boat there :( :(
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Lazycripple the 1st only has one post.Have I missed something ? ;D
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Lazycripple the 1st only has one post.Have I missed something ? ;D
You and me both ::) ::)
Although I'm not alone :-X :D
Worst thing is the stupid Captcha... How many posts do I have to get before that disappears? ::)
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Lazycripple the 1st only has one post.Have I missed something ? ;D
Who's he wound uppissed off this time ??? :D :D
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Lazycripple the 1st only has one post.Have I missed something ? ;D
Who's he wound uppissed off this time ??? :D :D
Same person who normally gets the hump :-X He's just over-sensitive... Part of being in touch with his feminine side I s'pose ::) ;D
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Can't you go back and fill up in 1955 or something? ;D
Instant Classic! ;D :y
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I have had the pleasure of riding in Claire's time machine. Totally awesome... And she can drive it ;) :y :y
cheers matey :y would be great if it went as quick as your 3.2 though ;)
Only 12 days till the tax runs out though :'(