Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: feeutfo on 21 September 2012, 20:50:38
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So come on... Any good? :)
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I refer the honourable gent to the 'what you done today' thread :P
Seriously though the back end feels like the suspension is actually attatched to the car 8)
Ride is firmer and feels much more planted, tyres don't have long for this earth, but corners nice and flat :y haven't pressed on in it as front still needs resetting :-\
First impressions are promising :y
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I presume the "hinge in the middle" feeling has gone on turn in. Or that's my hope anyway. ...?
Any noise or harshness? And... Will they stay in..? :)
Can you post the Pedders part no. When you get a mo? :)
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Part number is Pedders EP1145 :y
Not really any harsher than front polys :-\ but I do run my tyres at full load pressures ::)
I will have a good look in the morning whilst its up in the air having the trackrod adjuster freed off, but TBH I really can't see the bush going anywhere :y
Given that they cost less than a pair of pattern donuts it really is a no brainer :y
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250 mile update:
Bushes haven't budged 8) the thickness of the top pad keeps the subframe in check :y
Done quite a bit on twisty wet roads and words can't describe the difference :y
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Steady Al your "giving me a "stiffy" :D ;D
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;D I know it's my birthday and all, but, (no offence intended), far too much information :o
Will you be around on the 14th? Chance to have a drive and see for yourself :y
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Ooh a date. Er, sadly on Holybobs. Another time maybe?
Not playing hard to get but I'm tied up for a good while. ;)
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No probs :y
I can't see the bushes wearing out any time this century :y
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Hmmm, do I get TBE aligned now, of shove rear polys in....
I accept TA's feelings of improvement will be dramatic, as presumably the old ones were shot?
Hmmmmm.... ...I might have to go for a nice cup of tea ;D
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Actually, in the spirit of science, I should realign mine now, to fully be able to comment on the wishbone refurb, then look into the back end.
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As mine are currently fairly new Febi, perhaps should try them as a comparison.
How much are they Al?
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Part number is Pedders EP1145 :y
Not really any harsher than front polys :-\ but I do run my tyres at full load pressures ::)
I will have a good look in the morning whilst its up in the air having the trackrod adjuster freed off, but TBH I really can't see the bush going anywhere :y
Given that they cost less than a pair of pattern donuts it really is a no brainer :y
http://www.pedders.co.uk/pedders-urethane-various-bush-kit-ep1145_p4533567.htm ??? ???
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Part number is Pedders EP1145 :y
Not really any harsher than front polys :-\ but I do run my tyres at full load pressures ::)
I will have a good look in the morning whilst its up in the air having the trackrod adjuster freed off, but TBH I really can't see the bush going anywhere :y
Given that they cost less than a pair of pattern donuts it really is a no brainer :y
http://www.pedders.co.uk/pedders-urethane-various-bush-kit-ep1145_p4533567.htm ??? ???
Ouch!!
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Rear subframe bushes should have little or no effect on the front end :-\
The subframe donuts were replaced about 18 months ago, one was ok ish, tother was almost in two pieces ::)
So no wonder really that the handling was so hideous before :-X
My 234k car currently consists of:
Front: stock original rollbar bushes, new pattern trackrod ends/balljoints/droplinks, recent GM rear bushes, front poly bushes, stock GM plod shocks(renewed 90k ago), pattern top mounts (again 90k old), original plod springs.
Rear: stock original rollbar/trailing arm bushes/diffmounts, stock GM self levelling L4 shocks (renewed 110k ago), original plod springs, Pedders poly subframe bushes. Awaiting shock top mount kit from AndyC, as top mounts have collapsed slightly.
The only two developments that remain to be tried with the stock suspension are to polybush the front lower arm rear bush, and to replace the front strut top mount with a heavy duty Pedders one from the Monaro.
The improvement of the rear end is, I believe, more than simply replacing a worn out bush, as there is minimal give in the poly compared to the stock bush.
My aim is to firm up the factory suspension, (plod springs seem to be unbreakable), with a view to improving chassis control and eliminating the weaknesses of the standard bushes. The only point of contention is the front lower arm rear bush...
In answer to the cost, £108 including next day postage :y
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500 mile update:
More spirited lane driving, and some fast dual carriage way work. The car still rolls a bit due to the shocks being past their best, but there is absolutely no yaw whatsoever 8).
This is where the bushes really differ from the standard ones. The only lateral movement of the back end is brought about with liberal application of steering lock and right foot ::)
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500 mile update:
More spirited lane driving, and some fast dual carriage way work. The car still rolls a bit due to the shocks being past their best, but there is absolutely no yaw whatsoever 8).
This is where the bushes really differ from the standard ones. The only lateral movement of the back end is brought about with liberal application of steering lock and right foot ::)
Does the flatter ride make it more skittish?
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I know mine need replacing soon (along with the rest of the suspension ::)) so I'm now seriously considering these :-\
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I know mine need replacing soon (along with the rest of the suspension ::)) so I'm now seriously considering these :-\
Indeed, me too, but I want to drive one first I think. My concern is it may start to become too stiff, reducing the 'handling'. I also wonder why GM put voids in their's?
But I am really interested... ...those brand new Lemforders in the garage could be going to landfill ;D
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Does the flatter ride make it more skittish?
Possibly, but I currently have a mix of tyres front (Autogrips :-[) to back, and the plod set up is designed for heavy duty abuse rather than outright performance :-\ like I said it does still roll abit :-\ so the effect is probably a bit more subjective than fitting, say, a set of track coilovers :-\
I know mine need replacing soon (along with the rest of the suspension ::)) so I'm now seriously considering these :-\
Indeed, me too, but I want to drive one first I think. My concern is it may start to become too stiff, reducing the 'handling'. I also wonder why GM put voids in their's?
But I am really interested... ...those brand new Lemforders in the garage could be going to landfill ;D
If you can wait until the 14th, I'll pop up to Oxford with it :y. By then it will have 17"s on it with brand new tyres and I should have replaced the rear shock top mounts by then as well :y
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TA - as it looks like mine haven't collapsed completely (although jury still out ::)), it can wait :y
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Voids allow the rear subframe to articulate. It's basically a hinge in the middle where the hinge is the rear subfrom blocks to dif. Mild four wheel steering in effect. The side load on the car makes the outer edge of the bush flex into the void hole. This allows the rear wheels to follow the line if the front wheels more accurately.
Problem is its too flexible for spirited driving. Fine for the executive comfort of the design brief, but throw it into a corner and the play is taken up with an alarming sensation of sideways movement IMO. It leaves you with a "wtf was that" feel. Did it slide? Did it tram line? Did something brake at the back... No its only bush play again. Sigh...
The Carlton bushes, although they refused to stay fitted, gave a very satisfying firm feel from the rear of the car.
A thought occurs though...(o-oh) the poly al has are for Monaro I believe...? These are same as Carlton, I also believe. So my concern is that they also may work loose as mine did. But as Al pointed out, his are fitted with the thicker top pad as well. So even if the bush did have a tendency to work out, it can't because the thicker top pad prevents it.
Carlton bushes are spaced differently to omega due to the height the bush is set on the centre spacer. So the bushes must be fitted as a set, not just the bush but the top pad as well. Something I didn't do when fitting Carlton bushes. Maybe they would have stayed in with the top pad fitted as well.
As I understand it though, as the bush is set higher on the centre spacer, this means the chassis will be raised from the subframe by that amount. 10mm or so I think. Not sure what effect that will have, if any. :-\
Did I see there are very small void holes in the poly? And does this mean they are directional? :)
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They're not voids, merely dimples, and surround the centre bush, so not directional :y
The triangular plates still bolt right up to the chassis, so while the front of the subframe does, as you correctly note, sit about 9mm lower, this only serves to give the trailing arms a marginally flatter radius. Don't forget that the centre bolt can only go into one position, so there is a clearly defined location for the front of the subframe.
Might rustle up a new pair of stock rear bushes, just to remove 235k of play from the back of the subframe. :-\
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Yes TB's dif blocks where completely seperated by 150(?)k.
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Logic also suggests normal Carlton bushes might be worth a try with the Carlton top pad fitted.
We where working on the assumption that Carlton and omega bushes are same originally. Just with no void holes.
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Logic also suggests normal Carlton bushes might be worth a try with the Carlton top pad fitted.
We where working on the assumption that Carlton and omega bushes are same originally. Just with no void holes.
Bear in mind that the stock Monaro top pad is exactly the same as the Omega one, so this poly mod applies as well to the Omega as it does to the Monaro :y
If it doesn't provide a tangible improvement for the Monaro, Monkfish wouldn't sell it, so given their similarities, this upgrade should be just as valid for the Omega :y
p.s. are Carlton top pads still available? VX only, if at all :-\
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Something doesn't add up there, if the top pad is the same thickness and the bush is set lower there's room for it to work out. No? :-\
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Both the Monaro and the Omega share the top pad, it's about 1mm thick, quite soft, and a smaller diameter than the main bush. It had a sleeve which fits snuggly down on the main bush. The centre bolt is tight to the plate, which in turn is tight to the bush which is tight to the floor pan. The main bush is set at such a height to ensure that the subframe is tight against the top pad.
With the polys the same thing applies, the depth of the top pad is offset by the height of the central bush relative to the whole bush assembly.
Never having seen a Carlton bush, I suspect that the cetral bush is perhaps 5 mm further in to the bush, and the top pad is 5mm thicker to offset this. Hence when you fit the Carlton bush with an Omega top pad, the Carlton bush will always work out 5mm. Basically the difference in top pad thickness allows the subframe to ride up the bush :y
Because the poly bush and top pad are matched, this cannot happen :y
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Yes TB's dif blocks where completely seperated by 150(?)k.
Probably a bit more, it wasn't LPG'd until 166...
...that said, who knows how long they had been like that ;D
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So how you getting on with these Al? Still ok?
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Nothing to report :y which is good :y
Earlier suggestions of skittishness have been proven unfounded :-\ with the refurbed wheels and brand new tyres all of the same make ::) :-X the rear end is quite simply connected to the rest of the car :y
I still need to sort the rear shock top mounts, but no issues so far :y
See also: What have I done to my car today...
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This is very interesting and we're looking further into this cross reference of parts.
We also offer an addition shim to firm up the sub-frame mounting further for those of your wanting pin-point precision handling characteristics.
http://www.pedders.co.uk/pedders-urethane-various-bush-kit-ep1145_p4533567.htm (http://www.pedders.co.uk/pedders-urethane-various-bush-kit-ep1145_p4533567.htm)
Following on from this thread about "Camber for lower, stiffer cars"...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=85360.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=85360.0)
On the Monaro, as you lower the rear suspension (which we do a lot with coil over kits etc), you come up against the inner rear suspension arm bush fighting against the toe-control link arm. The toe-control link arm stops the rear suspension arm from gaining lots of camber but at the same time, it puts the bush under a lot of stress.
We now manufacture an offset wishbone bush in rubber for the exact issue of lowering and retaining a sensible amount of camber and toe.
http://www.pedders.co.uk/pedders-rubber-bushpkt2-kit-5803_p4500559.htm (http://www.pedders.co.uk/pedders-rubber-bushpkt2-kit-5803_p4500559.htm)
This is all very new stuff so please bear with us while we update the website with new images, sections for the Omega etc.
We have an Omega as one of our fleet cars so will be pulling it in shortly to fit some Pedders Bushes to and try out.
Thanks all for having the courage to go for this. This will hopefully open up more gains for both us and you.
Mike
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Great to have you on the forum Mike.
I suspect very much that you will have a long list of Omega owners being added to you customer list in the coming months. :y
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Like the sound of that Mike... Welcome along. I'll be in touch fairly soon ;) :y
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Would that be Great Horwood near Winslow? Oh I do hope so :D
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Would that be Great Horwood near Winslow? Oh I do hope so :D
Yep. :y
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Would that be Great Horwood near Winslow? Oh I do hope so :D
Yep. :y
Working in Bletchley has its advantages... ...I pass nearby most days ::)
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Would that be Great Horwood near Winslow? Oh I do hope so :D
Yep. :y
Working in Bletchley has its advantages... ...I pass nearby most days ::)
Really? <makes a mental note> ::) ::)
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well, of you trot. Once your happy, would you pop in and get me a set too? :)
and thanks for posting Mike, didnt know there was a uk office. :y
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Just to confirm, the set in the link, EP1145, are what I've fitted to mine :y
If your bushes have done a few miles then you'll notice the improvement instantly 8).
Given the extensive selection of bushes that Pedders offer, the front lower arm and roll bar bushes would be worth visiting as an alternative to the Powerflex ones :-\
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Have you ordered yourself some yet Chris? If not, why not ::)
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Because... I've been looking at Carlton top pads. ...although going by the Opel site it's not a top pad at all on the Carlton (omega a) afaict, but some odd 4 prong screw in device...?
My thinking being if the top pad was the same thickness as the Monaro top pad, would the Calton bush and top pad work? Doesn't look viable. But I have more digging to do tbh.
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The Omega (and Monaro) top pad is about 1mm thick :-\ That Calton mounting must be fairly deep to offset the bush depth :-\ example below...
Omega/Monaro stock: Top Pad. Poly: Top Pad.
Subframe. Top Pad.
Bush. Subframe.
Bush. Bush.
Bush. Bush.
Bush. Bush.
The same ingredients, taking up the same space, just arranged differently :y
Don't suppose that the Carlton top pad assembly would be that easy to retro fit to the Omega if it needs bolting up separately :-\
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Assembly between the subframe and chassis appears to be completely different. Non starter by the looks.
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At least now you can stop pondering that and worry about more important things.... like just how much of the chassis leg can you cut away ;D
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Should add, having been driven in Al's car, from the passenger seat the rear of the car fealt very very nice. No slop. Tight and communicative, without any harshness at all.
Impressed. :)
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That was with a full tank of fuel and a boot load of tools etc, so probably a similar rear axle weight to a full tank of gas on top of the petrol :y
Not to mention the tyres ::)