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Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 19:52:30

Title: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 19:52:30
The failure slip for Mrs Opti's RX8 reads...........Exhaust emissions lambda reading after 2nd fast idle outside specified limits (7.3.D.4)

But looking at the emissions slip it seems that  no second fast idle test was carried out. It just reads "Not Done". No figures......no   pass/fail....nothing.

It's probably all perfectly innocent, but is this normal for the MOT emissions test?
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 20:02:57
From memory it should be Idle, Fast Idle, 2nd Fast Idle (if needed) and all should show on the slip :-\
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 20:13:09
From memory it should be Idle, Fast Idle, 2nd Fast Idle (if needed) and all should show on the slip :-\

Thanks LD. My emissions slip is as follows. :y

Fast Idle Test
Engine speed
CO Level
HC Level
Lambda


Second Fast  Idle Test
Engine Speed
CO Level
HC Level
Lambda


Natural Idle Test
Engine Speed
CO Level

The second fast idle test and Natural idle test were marked "Not Done" :-\

She goes in for another test tomorrow.......so any information would be of help. :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 20:14:42
Need a more up to date tester (I haven't done an MOT test for over 10 years!) to confirm but I would be suspicious that it wasn't done correctly :-\
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 20:17:57
Need a more up to date tester (I haven't done an MOT test for over 10 years!) to confirm but I would be suspicious that it wasn't done correctly :-\

Thanks, LD. Maybe it would have passed on the second fast idle test......but for some unknown reason it wasn't done. Weird. :-\
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: b4ndit on 04 October 2012, 20:26:12
second fast idle test is done if the car fails the first fast idle test, if it passes the first it does not need the second one to be done :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 20:33:41
second fast idle test is done if the car fails the first fast idle test, if it passes the first it does not need the second one to be done :y


That's what I thought. ???

The car failed the first fast idle test on the lambda reading. 1.12 ( should be between 0.97-1.03)

So why no second fast idle test? ???
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 20:35:47
Is this the first test or a retest?
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 20:37:03
Is this the first test or a retest?

First test. :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 20:38:27
Is this the first test or a retest?

First test. :y

Thought it was strange that the reading was identical ::)
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 20:41:41
Is this the first test or a retest?

First test. :y

Thought it was strange that the reading was identical ::)

Booked in at a different garage tomorrow. £34.95 to find out.
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 20:43:29
Is this the first test or a retest?

First test. :y

Thought it was strange that the reading was identical ::)

Booked in at a different garage tomorrow. £34.95 to find out.

Give it a good thrashing on the way there and aim to arrive at the time it's due. If at all possible, try to leave it running when you book in unless it's going to be left waiting for a while
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: hercules on 04 October 2012, 20:44:36
could be £34.95 well spent  :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: tidla on 04 October 2012, 22:19:29
The only trouble is that the exhaust test is usually done last as its coming off the ramp some 30-45 mins later. I think a voluntary smoke test might be better before the test. If ok then a test at the same station.
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 22:40:38
The only trouble is that the exhaust test is usually done last as its coming off the ramp some 30-45 mins later. I think a voluntary smoke test might be better before the test. If ok then a test at the same station.

But it shouldn't be ;) Any tester worth his salt should do it immediately on driving the car into the test station (assuming it is warm enough) and we always did, as do the test station(s) I use
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: b4ndit on 04 October 2012, 22:44:18
The only trouble is that the exhaust test is usually done last as its coming off the ramp some 30-45 mins later. I think a voluntary smoke test might be better before the test. If ok then a test at the same station.

But it shouldn't be ;) Any tester worth his salt should do it immediately on driving the car into the test station (assuming it is warm enough) and we always did, as do the test station(s) I use
+1
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 22:55:46
1st part of test is the quick test,if readings are not met it then goes into automatic full test mode which takes a while,tester probably aborted it to save time which he shouldn't have done >:(
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 22:57:42
1st part of test is the quick test,if readings are not met it then goes into automatic full test mode which takes a while,tester probably aborted it to save time which he shouldn't have done >:(
I was waiting for you to confirm what I was thinking ;) :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 23:02:42
1st part of test is the quick test,if readings are not met it then goes into automatic full test mode which takes a while,tester probably aborted it to save time which he shouldn't have done >:(
I was waiting for you to confirm what I was thinking ;) :y

Like you I haven't been a tester for many years but as I have between five and ten tests a week done I'm still up on whats going on :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 23:07:13
1st part of test is the quick test,if readings are not met it then goes into automatic full test mode which takes a while,tester probably aborted it to save time which he shouldn't have done >:(
I was waiting for you to confirm what I was thinking ;) :y

Like you I haven't been a tester for many years but as I have between five and ten tests a week done I'm still up on whats going on :y

I don't get many done now as I only look after the family cars now ;)
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 23:10:50
Here you go Opti

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/repository/7.3%20Exhaust%20Emissions%20-%20Spark%20Ignition%20BET%20Test.pdf

where it says "cat 1" thats when the full test is carried out if "BET" limits not met
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 23:24:23
1st part of test is the quick test,if readings are not met it then goes into automatic full test mode which takes a while,tester probably aborted it to save time which he shouldn't have done >:(

Can confirm......bottom of the emissions fail slip says ABORTED. :(
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 23:27:48
Here you go Opti

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/repository/7.3%20Exhaust%20Emissions%20-%20Spark%20Ignition%20BET%20Test.pdf

where it says "cat 1" thats when the full test is carried out if "BET" limits not met


Can't get the link up, Henry. :'(

Thanks, Henry......got it working.. I presume that's the 7.3 bit. Any idea what the D.4 bit is?
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 23:38:37
Here you go Opti

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/repository/7.3%20Exhaust%20Emissions%20-%20Spark%20Ignition%20BET%20Test.pdf

where it says "cat 1" thats when the full test is carried out if "BET" limits not met


Can't get the link up, Henry. :'(

Bugger,nor can I now >:(
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 October 2012, 23:39:53
The numbers are just what section it failed under ;)
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 23:43:21
Why would the the MOT tester abort the test half way through?

Could his actions have consequences?

It was after 5 pm when he finished the MOT, despite the car being available to test from 2 pm.

Maybe he wanted to get home. Who knows.... :-\
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 23:45:11
Basically the first part of the test is the BET test(basic emissions test),if the limits aren't met during that test the machine should default to the full Cat test which is the part that seems to be missing from your first test :(
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 23:48:12
Why would the the MOT tester abort the test half way through?

Could his actions have consequences?

Probably due to the time that the full test can take,engine is held at 2500-3000 revs until limits met or time limit exceeded which takes a while.
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 23:48:21
Basically the first part of the test is the BET test(basic emissions test),if the limits aren't met during that test the machine should default to the full Cat test which is the part that seems to be missing from your first test :(

I'm learning quite a lot from this informative thread. :y
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 October 2012, 23:52:55
Why would the the MOT tester abort the test half way through?

Could his actions have consequences?

Probably due to the time that the full test can take,engine is held at 2500-3000 revs until limits met or time limit exceeded which takes a while.

This doesn't seem like a very professional approach to me, cutting the test short. It may  possibly have passed if he'd been more diligent. >:(
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 04 October 2012, 23:56:59
Why would the the MOT tester abort the test half way through?

Could his actions have consequences?

Probably due to the time that the full test can take,engine is held at 2500-3000 revs until limits met or time limit exceeded which takes a while.

This doesn't seem like a very professional approach to me, cutting the test short. It may  possibly have passed if he'd been more diligent. >:(

By rights the full test should be carried out if the BET is failed because on most machines the readings are visible throughout the test and as your's was close you'd think they would have carried on to see if it dropped under  :-\
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 October 2012, 09:39:36
The guy was clearly cutting corners to save time. It may well be that he didn't wait long enough for the engine to warm up fully and go "closed loop". With a couple of minutes of fast idle you may well have had a pass, IMHO.

You've paid for the full test to be carried out, Opti, and that's not what you received. I would be complaining to VOSA, personally. At least go back and tell them you want the full emissions test procedure followed as per the tester's manual.

You can threaten to report them to VOSA as an incentive for them to make amends.

EDIT: Oh, and they are required to have an area where you can view the test, so you can make sure they follow the correct procedure.
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 05 October 2012, 10:29:28
Yep, there's always the option of complaining to VOSA ;)
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 05 October 2012, 11:13:44
Yep, there's always the option of complaining to VOSA ;)

Although it will cost £54-85 for them to test it again which I believe can be re-claimed if the testing station has done wrong
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 October 2012, 11:42:43
Yep, there's always the option of complaining to VOSA ;)

Although it will cost £54-85 for them to test it again which I believe can be re-claimed if the testing station has done wrong

I was thinking of making a complaint that the full procedure was not followed, not necessarily disputing the result. They have failed to properly follow the test procedure, so we're not in a position to dispute the result yet, because the result was not properly obtained!
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 05 October 2012, 13:02:05
Yep, there's always the option of complaining to VOSA ;)

Although it will cost £54-85 for them to test it again which I believe can be re-claimed if the testing station has done wrong

I was thinking of making a complaint that the full procedure was not followed, not necessarily disputing the result. They have failed to properly follow the test procedure, so we're not in a position to dispute the result yet, because the result was not properly obtained!

What would  happen if they ( the MOT test station) told VOSA the real facts of the case?......."Car failed to pass 1st fast idle test (lambda), then all subsequent tests were aborted".

How would VOSA respond to this explanation?
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 October 2012, 13:11:52
What would  happen if they ( the MOT test station) told VOSA the real facts of the case?......."Car failed to pass 1st fast idle test (lambda), then all subsequent tests were aborted".

How would VOSA respond to this explanation?

They would ask him why he didn't test it following the full procedure in the MOT tester's manual, I would hope.

It would have been quite acceptable to pass the car if, after failing the first fast idle test, it then went on to pass the second test after a few minutes at elevated speed.
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 05 October 2012, 13:17:32
What would  happen if they ( the MOT test station) told VOSA the real facts of the case?......."Car failed to pass 1st fast idle test (lambda), then all subsequent tests were aborted".

How would VOSA respond to this explanation?

They would ask him why he didn't test it following the full procedure in the MOT tester's manual, I would hope.

It would have been quite acceptable to pass the car if, after failing the first fast idle test, it then went on to pass the second test after a few minutes at elevated speed.

Thanks, Kevin. Just as I thought.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the car would have passed the 2nd fast idle test........But I wasn't given the option to find out. >:(
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 October 2012, 14:58:14
What would  happen if they ( the MOT test station) told VOSA the real facts of the case?......."Car failed to pass 1st fast idle test (lambda), then all subsequent tests were aborted".

How would VOSA respond to this explanation?

They would ask him why he didn't test it following the full procedure in the MOT tester's manual, I would hope.

It would have been quite acceptable to pass the car if, after failing the first fast idle test, it then went on to pass the second test after a few minutes at elevated speed.

Thanks, Kevin. Just as I thought.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the car would have passed the 2nd fast idle test........But I wasn't given the option to find out. >:(

Indeed.  :y In fact, my car often needs the second test to pass. Always been like that, and if it's been standing for a while before the test, I'd say it would be normal to need either a good warming-up before the first test or the second test, to ensure a pass. I'm guessing this guy did neither.

The cynic in me wonders if he was looking forward to a round of jobs changing lambda sensors, cats, etc. at random before declaring it a pass, but then that'll be the second time I've been called a cynic today. :-X
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: Lazydocker on 05 October 2012, 15:02:03
What would  happen if they ( the MOT test station) told VOSA the real facts of the case?......."Car failed to pass 1st fast idle test (lambda), then all subsequent tests were aborted".

How would VOSA respond to this explanation?

They would ask him why he didn't test it following the full procedure in the MOT tester's manual, I would hope.

It would have been quite acceptable to pass the car if, after failing the first fast idle test, it then went on to pass the second test after a few minutes at elevated speed.

Thanks, Kevin. Just as I thought.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the car would have passed the 2nd fast idle test........But I wasn't given the option to find out. >:(

Indeed.  :y In fact, my car often needs the second test to pass. Always been like that, and if it's been standing for a while before the test, I'd say it would be normal to need either a good warming-up before the first test or the second test, to ensure a pass. I'm guessing this guy did neither.

The cynic in me wonders if he was looking forward to a round of jobs changing lambda sensors, cats, etc. at random before declaring it a pass, but then that'll be the second time I've been called a cynic today. :-X

Mu st admit, having been told that they want £1500 for a Cat I was thinking along the same lines ::)
Title: Re: One for OOF MOT testers.
Post by: henryd on 05 October 2012, 15:04:12
What would  happen if they ( the MOT test station) told VOSA the real facts of the case?......."Car failed to pass 1st fast idle test (lambda), then all subsequent tests were aborted".

How would VOSA respond to this explanation?

They would ask him why he didn't test it following the full procedure in the MOT tester's manual, I would hope.

It would have been quite acceptable to pass the car if, after failing the first fast idle test, it then went on to pass the second test after a few minutes at elevated speed.

Thanks, Kevin. Just as I thought.

Of course, there's no guarantee that the car would have passed the 2nd fast idle test........But I wasn't given the option to find out. >:(

Indeed.  :y In fact, my car often needs the second test to pass. Always been like that, and if it's been standing for a while before the test, I'd say it would be normal to need either a good warming-up before the first test or the second test, to ensure a pass. I'm guessing this guy did neither.

The cynic in me wonders if he was looking forward to a round of jobs changing lambda sensors, cats, etc. at random before declaring it a pass, but then that'll be the second time I've been called a cynic today. :-X

Mu st admit, having been told that they want £1500 for a Cat I was thinking along the same lines ::)

Sadly,so was I :(