Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: jonny2112 on 05 October 2012, 18:37:58
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Changed the stat and cam covers as planned. Took a lot longer than expected, but hey .......
Finally started her up tonight, and it started first time -- result :y
But it sounds like a tractor. Not a diesel, a tractor. In fact a tractor chewing a bag of spanners :'(
Everything is connected etc, and I didn't really do anything that should affect it in this way, I don't think.
But, I have a sinking feeling that I have lost a washer which I was using to bridge the gap for the new stat. At first I thought I had miscounted, but now ...... :-[
Standing at the front of the car, it could only have gone down the gap at the front of the stat, in towards the back of the cambelt cover. It did not get down the inlets.
So, what's next? Anyone any ideas re the noise which is not related to a suspected 'foreign body'?
And if the washer did slip through, where would / could it go from there?
Thank you ................... going for a cry now and to hang my head in shame. Please be gentle :-X
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All you did was stat and cam covers? :-\ and it was sounded fine before you did the job?
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Sorry mate, posted in error before finishing :-X
Post now updated :-[
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sh*t like this happens mate, dont beat yaself up :y
as for fixing it i'm presuming it sounds like a metallic rattle as the washer is knocked round the block by the water pump?
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sh*t like this happens mate, dont beat yaself up :y
as for fixing it i'm presuming it sounds like a metallic rattle as the washer is knocked round the block by the water pump?
That's what I was thinking. :-\
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sh*t like this happens mate, dont beat yaself up :y
as for fixing it i'm presuming it sounds like a metallic rattle as the washer is knocked round the block by the water pump?
That's what I was thinking. :-\
Yeah me too, but couldn't work out if it could make it's way in there :-\
Why couldn't that gap just be dead space .....?
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sh*t like this happens mate, dont beat yaself up :y
as for fixing it i'm presuming it sounds like a metallic rattle as the washer is knocked round the block by the water pump?
That's what I was thinking. :-\
Yeah me too, but couldn't work out if it could make it's way in there :-\
Why couldn't that gap just be dead space .....?
Murphy's Law mate. I suffer from it too unfortunately ::) ;D
By the sounds of it your best bet would be to access the block through the waterpump with a torch and long magnet i would have thought,
however id wait for one of the wizards to confirm on here thats the best course of action :y
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Cheers Webby :y
Cambelt needs done as well, but had hoped to leave it for a while (finances). Guess I may need to get the lot done now if I have to take the pump off anyway :'(
Really don't fancy doing it myself now after all this.
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sh*t like this happens mate, dont beat yaself up :y
as for fixing it i'm presuming it sounds like a metallic rattle as the washer is knocked round the block by the water pump?
That's what I was thinking. :-\
Yeah me too, but couldn't work out if it could make it's way in there :-\
Why couldn't that gap just be dead space .....?
I did mine recently and a bit of the stat leg snapped off when I was wiggling it off the transfer pipe. The bit must have gone straight down the waterway but I didn't know at that point. I started the car and it jingled briefly and then went quiet as normal. It's obviously jammed in there somewhere. ::) I'm going to hunt for it when I do the cambelt and water pump in the next couple of weeks. Fingers crossed until then. :-\
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Are there any other options do you think? Just not sure it could have got in behind the water pump.
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Cheers Webby :y
Cambelt needs done as well, but had hoped to leave it for a while (finances). Guess I may need to get the lot done now if I have to take the pump off anyway :'(
Really don't fancy doing it myself now after all this.
no probs mate... as said though i'd still wait for one of the wizards to confirm thats the case before you attempt it :y
to be fair mate you didnt exactly mess it up! anyone can drop a nut, bolt or washer.... i only did it last week when doing my breathers but luckily for me it went straight through everything and ended up on the floor ;D :y
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Sounds like your only real option is to remove the waterpump as suggested and have a good look with a torch.
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Have you gone back to basics first? Plenum fully seated ok? If one of the O rings has moved and the plenum is not sat right it will run really crap.
I'd start with that first, make sure everything is fully seated ok. Then move onto other things :y
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Have you gone back to basics first? Plenum fully seated ok? If one of the O rings has moved and the plenum is not sat right it will run really crap.
I'd start with that first, make sure everything is fully seated ok. Then move onto other things :y
completely agree.... check all of your work, make sure everything is spot on and then when every avenue has been gone down look at condemning the washer in the block. :y
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Thanks guys, will do. Why does work get in the way of things you really need to do?
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The noise is alarming, almost more than the thought of trying to strip down and find the offending item :-[
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The noise is alarming, almost more than the thought of trying to strip down and find the offending item :-[
If it is a metallic sound not a miss-fire, then you can always strip off the cambelt cover, double check everything. :y
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The noise is alarming, almost more than the thought of trying to strip down and find the offending item :-[
If it is a metallic sound not a miss-fire, then you can always strip off the cambelt cover, double check everything. :y
I think that's what I'll need to do. Definitely metallic. Didn't run it long enough to decide if any misfire or to let coolant circulate or decide on any other problems following the work.
Can't get it straight in my head, but hoping there's something stuck in around the belt. Failing that it must have got inside somehow :-\
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Silly question time & not intended to cause offence, but did you stuff the inlets with paper towels / tea towels? Could anything have fallen down into one of the pots?
Sure you did, just double checking the basics :y
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No offence at all pal :y
Yes I did block the inlets. Convincing myself that there is a missing washer and that it has found it's way into the cambelt housing at best (but why so noisy?) or in beyond the water pump at worst.
From my point of view it really needs to be the washer so that there is at least something to find.
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More likely down the coolant tube where the stat sits, can't see how it would work itself into the cambelt area that's sealed to prevent road dirt getting in there. Unless you removed that cover for any reason?
I have no experience of V6 cambelt change, not sure if the water pump can be removed on its own? I know its aux belt driven, but have a feeling the cam belt has to come off :-\ Could be wrong though ;D
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Don`t hypothesise or procrastinate John, :D :D get your spanners out :y :y
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Don`t hypothesise or procrastinate John, :D :D get your spanners out :y :y
;D ;D
Yes Rob, will do. Just don't know where to start? If it stays dry and I get home at a reasonable time, namely in daylight, I'll have a look.
I haven't had the cambelt cover off, but guess it may be open at the back, against the engine. Would also have thought that anything dropping in there would have been ejected by the belt.
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More likely down the coolant tube where the stat sits, can't see how it would work itself into the cambelt area that's sealed to prevent road dirt getting in there. Unless you removed that cover for any reason?
I have no experience of V6 cambelt change, not sure if the water pump can be removed on its own? I know its aux belt driven, but have a feeling the cam belt has to come off :-\ Could be wrong though ;D
The bag pipes off, plenum (if extended version), auxiliary belt after undoing the bolts on the water pump pulley and torx bolts on the power steering pump, remove auxiliary tensioner, remove cable tray and then cam belt cover.
Can be done with cambelt cover in place but if the pump is stuck then you`ll probably damage the cover when trying to release the pump. If done with cover in place, dont drop any bolts
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If I end up going down this route, can the water pump be reused? Or should it be replaced once removed?
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If I end up going down this route, can the water pump be reused? Or should it be replaced once removed?
Yep as long as there`s no bearing noise
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hi Jonny. If your unsure about getting the water pump out I'd be inclined to buy the oof cam belt dvd which shows you exactly what to do to get to that point. . . Simply follow all instructions but skip the cam belt bit :-) i was also thinkin about this. If the washer has been cracking the water pump i wonder if its possible the water pump teeth are damaged? Just thinkin cos it spins round so fast?
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I think I have one of those discs actually, good thinking :y
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Started to strip down tonight but bad light stopped play :'(
Aux belt is off, cover fastenings all removed, but need to take some of the pulleys off?
Should have an hour or so tomorrow before work to have another bash :y
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Hope you get it sorted mate,without too much agro ;)
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Hope you get it sorted mate,without too much agro ;)
Cheers pal, me too :D :y
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Give it a quick run with the aux belt off just to eliminate the ancillaries. :y
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I had wondered if that would be okay? So thanks Kevin :y
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I had wondered if that would be okay? So thanks Kevin :y
The way I see it, if it's run already, any damage is done. It only needs to be a second or two to tell if it's still grumpy.
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I had wondered if that would be okay? So thanks Kevin :y
The way I see it, if it's run already, any damage is done. It only needs to be a second or two to tell if it's still grumpy.
:'( :'( :'(
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In fact, in the first instance, just feel for any play and roughness in the ancillaries driven by the aux belt.
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Ok mate, will do. I haven't noticed anything tonight but didn't explore that option really.
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How do you remove the water pump pulley?
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293463605
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Cheers Rob :y
And the tensioner comes off via the two torx bolts round the corner?
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Cheers Rob :y
And the tensioner comes off via the two torx bolts round the corner?
:y
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Well, got the cover off, and hoped beyond hope that I would just see the offender lying somewhere on the belt or cogs, etc. But no. No sign so far. Looking now I think it must have gone under the top tensioner mounting plate. Wouldn't cause any harm there I wouldn't have thought? Guessed it was somewhere in the casing instead. Can't see how it would have got into the water pump from there, and worried now that there is something else wrong and the washer was a 'red herring'
I'll keep checking though, just in case.
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With a bit of fuse wire I can see that there is indeed a small gap under the mounting plate but I still can't find the washer. A natural fall would have been down the left side of the water pump (looking from the front of the car) and down towards the crankshaft. I can't see any damage etc at this stage.
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Are the coil packs plugged in?
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Yes they are. What are you thinking?
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They will run on three cylinders but, they run bloody awful with clattering etc.
Worth checking fault codes once back together
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I've never done the pedal trick before, and it never crossed my mind. I should have done it before dismantling, but all I could think of was this stupid washer!
In hindsight I'm doubting a washer could have made such a racket? I thought perhaps if it had got trapped between cam sprockets, but even so.
While its stripped down this far I should really do the belt, but at the same time I need to try and get it back together and sorted. Also the only kit I can get my hands on today is a motoquip one?
Thinking now ill have to go back to the start, and take the cam covers off again just to ensure there is nothing lying in there? I'm sure there isn't, but I might have to check.
Perhaps though, as masters says, I should reassemble and do the pedal trick in case I'm completely off the mark.
Still can't help thinking about that washer though ..........
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Don't need to reassemble to do pedal trick. Its done with engine off. :y
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Problem is, if it's in bits with loads of stuff unplugged, you'll get codes appear that are totally unrelated.
hopefully nothing has been dropped down into the camshaft areas?
Turn the water pump by hand and feel how it is. If the washer is making a noise with engine rotation, (or water pump rotation) then chances are it will be caught up in the impellor, and hence easy to get out...
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Problem is, if it's in bits with loads of stuff unplugged, you'll get codes appear that are totally unrelated.
hopefully nothing has been dropped down into the camshaft areas?
Turn the water pump by hand and feel how it is. If the washer is making a noise with engine rotation, (or water pump rotation) then chances are it will be caught up in the impellor, and hence easy to get out...
True, but wouldn't it be OK to just reconnect any electrics, and then do the pedal trick?
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Problem is, if it's in bits with loads of stuff unplugged, you'll get codes appear that are totally unrelated.
hopefully nothing has been dropped down into the camshaft areas?
Turn the water pump by hand and feel how it is. If the washer is making a noise with engine rotation, (or water pump rotation) then chances are it will be caught up in the impellor, and hence easy to get out...
True, but wouldn't it be OK to just reconnect any electrics, and then do the pedal trick?
Absolutely fine, as long as the fuel lines are connected to the manifold too... :y
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Thanks guys. I've got another couple of hours in the morning before work, so trying to organise a plan of attack. My ignorance is blinding me though, to things some of you may see as obvious :-[
For example - I'll try the water pump but I still can't see how anything would get into the coolant system from outside?
The car is stripped to the point where the cambelt is exposed. If I replace the plenum can I start it in this state? Just thinking about Kevin's suggestion to rule out the ancillaries.
Afaik the car was running beautifully before I got my chubby hands on my spanners :D :'(
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Nothing can get in the cooling system unless you dropped it into the stat. Worth spinning the pump/alternator/tensioner/AC pump etc. by hand and feel/listen for any roughness.
Trying to think why you couldnt start the engine if you put the plenum back on,and no good reason springs to mind,although make sure you have any wires/pipes etc. held well away from the belt and pulleys.
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Thanks guys. I've got another couple of hours in the morning before work, so trying to organise a plan of attack. My ignorance is blinding me though, to things some of you may see as obvious :-[
For example - I'll try the water pump but I still can't see how anything would get into the coolant system from outside?
The car is stripped to the point where the cambelt is exposed. If I replace the plenum can I start it in this state? Just thinking about Kevin's suggestion to rule out the ancillaries.
Afaik the car was running beautifully before I got my chubby hands on my spanners :D :'(
Yes, but you'll get some codes raised regarding the MAF, Intake valve and air temperature sensor.
Check the cam belt tension first now you're there, though. Lock it in the TDC position first. If the tensioner is "bottoming out" because it's too loose or tight it will make a knocking noise.
It might also be worth turning it over by hand a few times with a wrench on the crank pulley first to see if there's any sign of tight spots or odd noises.
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If the stat was removed, and something dropped in the hole, I guess potentially that could end up in/around the Water pump?
Just turn the pipe by hand with the aux belt removed. It will take seconds, could even do that in the dark.
See if it turns freely...
You haven't touched the cambelt. I'd be amazed if it was a co-incidental cambelt problem, immediately after doing just the cam covers....
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thanks guys. Chores all done, so going out now to try a few bits. Convinved there's nothing has got into the stat area, and wondering now if there may be something in around the camshafts? I'm not missing anything tool wise, or fittings, but you never know. I'll need to remove the cam pulley to check in around the lower end of the belt, but otherwise I can't see any damage or any play in the belt itself. If I want to rotate the crank manually, is it direction specific?
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I want to rotate the crank manually, is it direction specific?
Yes, if the cam belt is fitted you must only rotate it clockwise otherwise the belt will lose tension and slip.
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Thanks Kevin. That's clockwise looking at it from the front?
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Thanks Kevin. That's clockwise looking at it from the front?
yes :y
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Couldn't find anything untoward in or around the cambelt, so have put everything back together with the plan to do the pedal trick when I get home.
That'll be interesting :-X
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Couldn't find anything untoward in or around the cambelt, so have put everything back together with the plan to do the pedal trick when I get home.
That'll be interesting :-X
Once put back together, try running engine without aux belt on. That way water pump won't be running, rule that out. Don't run it for very long though :y
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Ok pal. Will do :y
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Before getting the spanners out again, though I'd try the pedal trick. Bearing in mind I haven't done this before on the car, I don't know if there were any codes already stored. Having said that, I was pleasantly surprised that there were only 5 codes -
0120 - Throttle/pedalPosition sensor/switch "A" circuit range/performanceProblem
0220 - Throttle/pedalPosition sensor/switch "B" circuit range/performanceProblem
1110 - Intake Manifold Valve 1 Open
1111 - Intake Manifold Valve 2 Open
1700 - Service Vehicle Soon Request from Transmission Control Module
Ignoring the last code, it would seem I have done something very silly at some point during reassembly. At least I'm hoping that's the case ::)
I guess I'll have to go through what I've already done, but any pointers would be appreciated :y
Thanks for all the help and advice so far, and my ignorance shows when I thought that stupid washer was involved :-[
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Have you plugged in the little solenoid valves that operate the multirams? (one on the bagpipes in front of the engine, the other on the rear passenger corner of the plenum)
Ditto the throttle body. Has the electrical connector to this been refitted?
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I thought everything had been refitted, especially as I've had the plenum on and off a couple of times this past while :-\
I'll check all the connections again though, thanks Kevin :y
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They may be stored codes, of course. Did you turn on the ignition while they were disconnected during the job?
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They may be stored codes, of course. Did you turn on the ignition while they were disconnected during the job?
No I don't think so, but they could be stored codes indeed. Can they be reset by me so that I can try again? Or is that a job for tech2?
It does quite fit in though with the work I was doing? I've a day off tomorrow so hope I can get to the bottom of it!
Wish I'd had the wit to check for codes initially, before wasting time stripping it down again :-[
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Well, I wouldn't worry too much about the codes at this stage. There's nothing there to indicate what the rattle might be. :-\
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I know. I think I'm getting carried away, thinking its something simple.
We'll see tomorrow ::)
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Bloomin' weather!! Was outside for five minutes and got absolutely soaked >:(
Didn't see anything untoward or disconnected though.
Going to take the plenum off again, and the inlet and the sandwich plate so I can check the intakes, and make sure everything is put back in place.
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Just been looking through the guides again, and it states there is a vacuum hose on the inlet. I don't recall seeing this on the initial removal, and therefore did not replace it. All I remember is the wiring block.
Where does the hose connect to, or where from, so I can check?
Cheers :y
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Thin vacuum pipe runs from the vacuum box down by the front "bagpipes" along the n/s cam cover then connects to a little curved rubber pipe onto the rear multirams almost directly next to the black cable plug
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Just thinking actually, is there a small vacuum pipe attached to the inlet which attaches to the underside of the throttle bodies? It's not actually removed from the inlet as its already been disconnected from the throttle?
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Thin vacuum pipe runs from the vacuum box down by the front "bagpipes" along the n/s cam cover then connects to a little curved rubber pipe onto the rear multirams almost directly next to the black cable plug
Cheers mate, that's at the back of the plenum?
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Yes...connects at the back n/side of plenum just by the bracket that holds the cable tray.There is a curved peice of rubber that fits to the multiram and the vacuum pipe just pushes into the end
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Aux belt off. No change on startup. Back to basics then.
Next step, strip back down to inlets. What exactly is the 'intake manifold valve'?
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No apparent blockages etc in manifold. Sandwich plate clear too, so back on.
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Inlet manifold ok too so back on. Connector plugged in, and the thin vacuum hose still attached.
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All back together, and plenum back on. Still no change on start up, and same codes on pedal trick.
What now? I'm lost :'(
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Hummm, so with Aux belt off no change. That rules out anything sitting in the pump, also with no coolant circulating it means no problems there.
Also when you rotated the crank by hand all was well? :-\
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That small pipe the runs from the throttle body UNDER the plenum connects to the fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail. Not sure what would happen if disconnected though :-\
No offence intended, but playing devils advocate, you did refill the coolant didn't you?
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Yes tunnie, all seemed well.
And al, coolant was topped up but not circulated yet as I don't want to run the engine whilst making the racket (hardly linked ?) Oh, and no offence at all :)
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They can get quite noisy if run for a bit without coolant :y
Mine was knocking like a bastid from driving 1/2 mile to get off the motorway when I broke it last year :-[
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Maybe I should try running it for a bit then to try and get the coolant in.
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If water pump turns freely by hand very doudtfull anything is stuck in the impellers.
Cant see a noise being caused by a vacuum pipe being left off so think I would agree with Al ,and just let it run for a while on idle and see if it clears as could be possibly coolant not circulating or maybe even low pressure of fuel getting to the injectors after being disconnected.
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Ok.
Was letting it run a bit, but got steam / smoke from offside bank. Might be excess oil or water burning off, but I've switched off for a minute to check. Opened the rad drain and a little fluid came out so at least coolant starting to circulate.
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Ok.
Was letting it run a bit, but got steam / smoke from offside bank. Might be excess oil or water burning off, but I've switched off for a minute to check. Opened the rad drain and a little fluid came out so at least coolant starting to circulate.
This worries me .... with all the drains closed, as you pour coolant in you should get 90% of it in with ease, and radiator should certainly be full, you may have the odd airlock in the heater matrix .. but the rest of the coolant system should be pretty much full ..... :(
Always has done this on mine anyway ......
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Agreed, should be pouring out when the drain screw is undone :-\
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Its difficult without being able to hear the sound. It could be that you ve left something lie a bolt or socket in the area of the cams and then put he covers back on,so it now acts like a spanner in a tumble dryer.On the other hand it could be lifters and cams needing a bit more time to get oil back where it should be. :-\
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I probably didn't explain that very well :-[
I only initially drained what came out when the valve was opened, not the block. All I meant was that when I again opened the valve fluid started to come out, whereas it had previously been drained. It does pour out though. Sorry for misleading.
I've taken a video and ill try to upload to YouTube so you can hear it, in case that may help?
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That's what I'm starting to think too Albs, that something is inside.
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Despite creating a new YouTube account, I can't seem to upload as it doesn't recognise my sign in (despite being already signed on on the app!).
Could I email it to someone to upload on my behalf please?
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If you suspect a foreign object has got in, remove each spark plug and check for signs of damage.
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If you still have the same original noise and you have hand rotated all the ancillaries with aux belt removed and non of them are the issue,it is now pointing more towards something being left under a cam cover prior to fitting it back on.
That would certainly account for the noise which hopefully hasnt got any further inside the engine.Might be worth just allowing it to run with a long screw driver to your ear and on each cam cover in turn and see if the noise from 1 side to the other is much different.That would atleast confirm if something is loose under it and also allow you possibly only need to remove 1 cover.
A stethoscope probe would be ideal otherwise,but long screw driver would suffice
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Took off the offside cover but can't see anything untoward.
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Looks like you may need to remove the otherside too just to be totally certain nothing is in there
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Plugs seem ok too so have to try the other side too.
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Just an idea, but when you disconnected the fuel lines, you wrapped them in paper towels or similar? Checked those are free and clear?
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Actually there is a little bit of watery mayo on the inside of the cover. Don't recall it being like that the first time, but it could have been. Would that mean anything?
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Just an idea, but when you disconnected the fuel lines, you wrapped them in paper towels or similar? Checked those are free and clear?
Thanks tunnie, yes they're clear.
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Actually there is a little bit of watery mayo on the inside of the cover. Don't recall it being like that the first time, but it could have been. Would that mean anything?
Just some moisture/water mixing with oil, nothing really to worry about :y
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Just an idea, but when you disconnected the fuel lines, you wrapped them in paper towels or similar? Checked those are free and clear?
Thanks tunnie, yes they're clear.
Bugger, another one to cross of the list :(
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Cheers. Onto the other side then ....
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Other side looks clear too.
Ah well, back to the drawing board. Stupid torque wrench sheared one of the cam cover bolts >:(
Have to try and borrow another wrench, though cant get a replacement bolt until Monday.
Why did I bother with this job :(
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Its turning into a real PITA for you,sorry to hear that.
How did a cam cover bolt shear at only 8nm :o
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8Nm is barley nipped, its so low its very hard to judge by hand. Was the torque wrench faulty? :-\
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I think it must be faulty. Knew I shouldn't trust it.
Miss2112 has uploaded the noise .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmzZ3V5-VYg
Hope the link works, as it'll give you an idea.
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That doesn,t sound like anything metalic has dropped inside the negine to me. ???
Have you checked the small rubber hose join on the SAI tube that runs just by the o/s coolant transfer pipe for a split...that noise sounds more like manifold or exhaust related from the clip
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Thanks amba. That would tie in to the fault code too.
I haven't found anything disconnected, but I'll start checking for damage / splits too :y
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That noise does sound more like an exhaust blow or similar....I really doudt that is anything inside engine or cam covers.
That short peice of black hose joining the 2 peices of the SAI pipework would make a similar noise if it had a split...seem to remember somebody replaced manifold gasket only to find it was the pipe that had a split in it.Should be able to feel a definite blow if you carefully feel around it whilst engine is running...be carefull though as pipes are hot :o
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I wouldnt like to say tbh.Sounds just like my diesel cavalier.Hopefully one of the experts will recognise the problem from the soundtrack. :y
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That short peice of black hose joining the 2 peices of the SAI pipework would make a similar noise if it had a split
2.6, no SAI ;)
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Is it definitely running on both banks ? Its almost as if its only running on one. :-\
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Sounds metallic , is the oil low :-\
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isnt that a tappety noise not sure of the construction but are there lifters or hydraulic tappets which are not getting lubricated
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There was an oil leak, but the oil has been topped up. Left it running for a while but no change. Maybe needs run for longer? But it does sound tappety!
Sounds like its coming from the plenum but there's nothing in there really. I didn't physically check it though. Mmmm.
Be a nightmare trying to find a split pipe if that's what it is :-\
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Is it definitely running on both banks ? Its almost as if its only running on one. :-\
How could I test this? I had thought fault code may have thrown some light on that?
Worth disconnecting one of the coil packs at a time?
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Looking at engine construction under the cams are followers and a" hydraulic valve adjustment mechanism" are the followers getting the oil they require. Something blocked by disturbed muck.
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Is it definitely running on both banks ? Its almost as if its only running on one. :-\
How could I test this? I had thought fault code may have thrown some light on that?
Worth disconnecting one of the coil packs at a time?
That would work.If disconnecting one doesnt make any difference then youve narrowed things down.Im only thinking out loud though.Im not an expert by any stretch. ;)
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I'll maybe give that a go. Can't do any harm.
Bit late now though and working over the weekend :'(
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I think it must be faulty. Knew I shouldn't trust it.
Miss2112 has uploaded the noise .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmzZ3V5-VYg
Hope the link works, as it'll give you an idea.
In no particular order:
Plugs all tight.
Inlet manifold/Plenum/Intake Bridge all bolted down.
What oil did you use? If used to 10w40 and a bit of mileage, then 10w30 is a bit thin IME :-\ Pop a can of Wynns Hydraulic lifter treatment in. That will help with the tappety noise :y
Don't bother running it with one or tother coilpack unplugged. All this will do is really piss the ecu off :-\ giving you a shed load of codes to worry about on top of everything else. I doubt it is even a cylinder down from the sound and total lack of vibration. :-\
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Just occured to me ::)
Are the half moons all seated correctly at the back of the cam covers? If not that will allow alot of mechanical noise out of the heads :-\
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And a hell of a lot of oil I would have thought. :-\
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Sounds to me like that's running on all 6 alright, but with no oil supply to the hydraulic tappets.
Certainly doesn't sound like a foreign object has got anywhere IMHO.
Is the oil light going out?
Does it quieten if you lift the revs to say 2000 RPM?
Struggling to see how it can be related to a cam cover change, I must say. Were the T vents disturbed? Guessing not.
.. unless overtightening the cam cover bolts has damaged the cam caps?
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.. unless overtightening the cam cover bolts has damaged the cam caps?
Hope to goodness not... as it will more than likely need new heads if that's the case :(
Sadly I can't see/hear the clip, as my internet connection is so pants at home. BUT I once had a car on my drive, I drained it of oil, did the cam covers, oil cooler kit, cambelt, and other work.
Everything was done perfectly, nothing dropped or unaccounted for... yet on startup, it made the most awful tapping noise I've ever heard.
I went belt and braces, I took it apart again to check everything - and found it to be fine.
Again fired it up, really, really tappy.
It was not until it was fully up to temp, and had idled for a further half hour, before it shut up, and sounded sweet again.
As part of my process I checked the sump, pickup strainer, T vents, all clear as a whistle...
Admittedly turning the engine by hand a few times doing the cambelt would have drained the lifters of oil somewhat, needing more time for them to prime.. but still.... I just had to put it down to one of those things...
It may for peace of mind be worth a check of the strainer and oil pressure.... but it may be another one of those that just disappears and doesn't return...
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And a hell of a lot of oil I would have thought. :-\
Possibly, but OP makes no mention of neither revving the engine nor actually driving it :-\ at idle just how much oil pressure is there at the top of the engine :-\
If all that has been done is a camcover gasket and thermostat change, the it should be a case of working through both jobs until the thing that isn't quite right is found and rectified :-\
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Yep, if you get air in the lifters they do seem to take ages to quieten down on these engines, but I've never had one rattle like that after just routine servicing.
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A combination of loose plugs and thin oil make for an interesting soundtrack :-X especially when cold
The loose plug being most of the reason that mine destroyed one :-\
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Thanks guys.
Plugs all checked and refitted without any problem.
Left it running earlier for maybe ten minutes but no more, and haven't driven it yet. Temp had started to rise so hopefully stat is working.
I'm hoping that any problem with stat or transfer pipe would result in a coolant leak somewhere. So far there is not. Everything else has been redone - inlets and camcovers - but still nothing seemed out of place.
Maybe I'll take it for a run tomorrow evening and see what happens. Scared of it going 'bang' though :-[
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Only just watched the video, had a "few" beers last night ::)
As others have said, does not sound like a miss-fire to me either, its also a very deep sound :-\
As Kevin mentioned, what happens with a very small amount of revs?
Oil light going out?
Even if the cam cover was done to 1,000,000 Nm, surely that would have just stripped the thread/cracked bolt? Its a tiny bolt too would have to go some to damage a cam cap? :-\
If you listen closer, is the sound coming from both banks?
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Haven't really tried revs but can't say I noticed any difference on the one occasion. I'll confirm that later, and may also take it for a spin.
No warning lights at all once started.
Sounds like its coming from the plenum actually, though hard to say - could be both banks instead.
I had removed it and cleaned breathers and throttle bodies, and there's nothing else in there to cause any issues. I'm going to take it off and check though.
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Have you tried pushing down on the plenum, on one side or one corner while its running?
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Why have I just had a dejv vu moment,, has the Matrix just rebooted ;D
In my case, it was a combo of lifters going noisy coincidentally, and the EGR (yours won't have one) which was something we touched.
If the lifters have lost their oil (esp if they are getting on, and springs are weak), they take forever to pump back up.
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Have you tried pushing down on the plenum, on one side or one corner while its running?
Yes but to no avail. Nothing apparently loose there, on the outside anyway.
Ah, the Matrix ...... Maybe this is just a 'glitch' :D
I'm going to take the plenum off (again!!) and just check it for anything out of the ordinary.
Guess I will just have to take it for a run, even if its only to rule that out.
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That doesn,t sound like anything metalic has dropped inside the negine to me. ???
Have you checked the small rubber hose join on the SAI tube that runs just by the o/s coolant transfer pipe for a split...that noise sounds more like manifold or exhaust related from the clip
2.6 doesn't have them
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Sorry for sending you down the wrong path....didn,t notice engine was 2.6...doddgy eyes :D
Does sound like lifter noise though from the video clip...maybe they have drained down and just need time to refill
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Thanks guys.
Plugs all checked and refitted without any problem.
Left it running earlier for maybe ten minutes but no more, and haven't driven it yet. Temp had started to rise so hopefully stat is working.
I'm hoping that any problem with stat or transfer pipe would result in a coolant leak somewhere. So far there is not. Everything else has been redone - inlets and camcovers - but still nothing seemed out of place.
Maybe I'll take it for a run tomorrow evening and see what happens. Scared of it going 'bang' though :-[
I wouldn't do that if it was mine , if no oil is getting to the lifters . Seem to recall webby's car sounded similar after he did some work on ralf but we never heard if he found the source :-\
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Not keen on taking it out either :-
Thought it might be necessary though?
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In my earlier post I mentioned "hydraulic valve adjustment mechanism" I dont know what this is but I seems to me that you are not getting oil to the lifters .In doing the cam covers have you blocked an oil way with sealant
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In my earlier post I mentioned "hydraulic valve adjustment mechanism" I dont know what this is but I seems to me that you are not getting oil to the lifters .In doing the cam covers have you blocked an oil way with sealant
Don't know what that means either, and only used sealant as prescribed?
Could oil ways be blocked somehow?
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In my earlier post I mentioned "hydraulic valve adjustment mechanism" I dont know what this is but I seems to me that you are not getting oil to the lifters .In doing the cam covers have you blocked an oil way with sealant
Don't know what that means either, and only used sealant as prescribed?
Could oil ways be blocked somehow?
There are feed pipes in the area, its possible to block them. If you used sealant as per the guide, can't see how it would happen. But it looks like you may need to take covers off to inspect, if just for peace of mind :-\
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I had the covers off and replaced again as per the guide. Nothing trapped or blocked afaik but where could potential problem areas be?
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I seem to remember an earlier post on cam covers that said that there was an oil feed on one corner near the half moons
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Oil feed is via drillings through the block and cylinder heads straight to the underside of the cam bearings. The only way to block these feeds is to fit cylinder head gaskets back to front (it has been done......).
There are only three oil pipes as such on the V6, one in the sump from the oil strainer to the oil pump and the two from behind the oil filter up to the oil cooler.
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So,where does the oil come up to feed the cams ? Its not just the bearings which recieve oil,the whole area inside the cam covers swims in oil when the engine is running,to keep the lobes lubed.Thats the critical thing for Jonny.If it is near the half moons as Robson suggested then close inspection around there seems like the next thing to do.
I must say I feel really sorry for the bloke.Its obvious by the length of the thread that we are all trying our best to help,but due to his location its not a matter of someone knowledgeable going and having a look at it for him.Must be very frustrating indeed. :(
Then again,he doesnt have to live among all you English people. :P ;D
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Sure one of us would have been over if he had been in the UK :(
I've done V6 cam covers, what I don't understand is how the tappets could have drained (if they have done that is)
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Sure one of us would have been over if he had been in the UK :(
I've done V6 cam covers, what I don't understand is how the tappets could have drained (if they have done that is)
He is in the UKTunnie.Hes not in GB though. ::) ;)
I agree though.If he was on the mainland,chances are someone not too far away,with plenty of knowledge would have offered to go and cast an eye/ear over it for him.Also agree that dry lifters doesnt add up with doing camcover gaskets,and it would be a hell of a coincidence.
Having said that,istr TB had a big problem with dry lifters or similar after he and other OOFers fitting LPG to the rusty bullet. :-\
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Listening to the sountrack several more times,my uneducated conclusion would be,no oil up around the cams or dried out lifters.
Run it again briefly,then whip off a cover and look for signs of oil or lack of it around cams ?
If no signs of oil,find out why ?
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Sorry yes i meant GB :-[
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Sorry yes i meant GB :-[
I forgive you ;)
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Listening to the sountrack several more times,my uneducated conclusion would be,no oil up around the cams or dried out lifters.
Run it again briefly,then whip off a cover and look for signs of oil or lack of it around cams ?
If no signs of oil,find out why ?
Will do, cheers :y
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If you get really stuck, I should have a set of restdays coming up, could see what Sleazyjet have to offer.... :y
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Cheers James :y
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How long have you let the engine idle for John
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Maybe ten minutes Rob, certainly not much more. Am thinking that I'll have to let it run up to temp at some point though .....
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Maybe ten minutes Rob, certainly not much more. Am thinking that I'll have to let it run up to temp at some point though .....
If all or some of the lifters have drained themselves :-\ you can triple that
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Chuck a can of lifter treatment in and take it for a gentle drive, try and keep it below 2000rpm if you can :y
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Probably good advice,but I would want to double check that oil is getting up around the cams etc. first. ;)
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Probably good advice,but I would want to double check that oil is getting up around the cams etc. first. ;)
Planning on testing it in this way tomorrow afternoon. If all goes well, then we can go for the long idle, or perhaps the run. :y
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Remove the oil cap whilst running, should be some oil splatter evident, don't go sticking your fingers in though :y
Could also remove oil filler tube, if oil is visibly evident then probably ok :-\
As an aside, if the oil pump is a bit on the lazy side, then just idling the car will do alot more harm than a gentle drive :y
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Could also remove oil filler tube, if oil is visibly evident then probably ok :-\
Funny, I was thinking about that, to avoid having to remove the near side cover ::)
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As said if evidence of oil there, then take it for a quick run to warm it through properly and report back :y
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Cheers al, will do. Back tomorrow afternoon :y
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Update -
Right. Let the motor run for about twenty minutes before I had to nip out (in the wife's car obviously :'() and then another twenty minutes when I got back. I did think that it sounded quieter, but not sure.
Decided to take it for a run, but it was horrible to drive. Not the smooth luxury gem that it was, before I got the tools out!
Was missing a little, down on power, and the throttle was really strange.
Got home again after only a ten minute run, and remembered to do the pedal trick. Extra codes now -
Existing -
0120 Throttle/pedalPosition sensor/switch "A" circuit range/performanceProblem
0220 Throttle/pedalPosition sensor/switch "B" circuit range/performanceProblem
1110 Intake Manifold Valve 1 Open
1111 Intake Manifold Valve 2 Open
1700 Service Vehicle Soon Request from Transmission Control Module
New -
P0325 Knock sensor 1 circuit high input (Bank 1 or single sensor) or Knock sensor 1 circuit low input (Bank 1 or single sensor)
P0330 Knock sensor 2 circuit high input (Bank 2) or Knock sensor 2 circuit low input (Bank 2
0300 Random/multiple cylinder misfire detected
0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
So instead of getting better, we're getting worse :-[
Definitely something wrong with the throttle so that ties in with the codes, as does the misfire; though why one on opposite banks? Knock sensor?
Sorry guys but here we go again! :-\
Also, eml came on for a short time on two occasions during the drive.
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2) The knock sensor is a VERY reliable device and not one that I have ever known to truly fail. I have however seen them on V6 power plants where the cable has been trapped and damaged under the cam covers following gasket replacement (passenger side) or caught in the aux belt (drivers side).
Oh sugar! That could be my fault then when reassembling. I checked round the covers though and didn't think there was anything trapped, and surely a bit coincidental that both are playing up? Albeit I did both cam covers .........
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the coil packs can give up once removed from engine,both off mine did when i did cam covers last year.
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What were your symptoms pal?
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Thanks guys.
Plugs all checked and refitted without any problem.
Left it running earlier for maybe ten minutes but no more, and haven't driven it yet. Temp had started to rise so hopefully stat is working.
I'm hoping that any problem with stat or transfer pipe would result in a coolant leak somewhere. So far there is not. Everything else has been redone - inlets and camcovers - but still nothing seemed out of place.
Maybe I'll take it for a run tomorrow evening and see what happens. Scared of it going 'bang' though :-[
I wouldn't do that if it was mine , if no oil is getting to the lifters . Seem to recall webby's car sounded similar after he did some work on ralf but we never heard if he found the source :-\
thats right, ralf sounded terrible but to be fair that was due to the exhaust valve/c.shaft timing on bank 1 being out by 5 teeth :o i'd still love to know how it got like that ??? ;D ;D ;D
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just watched your vid jonny.
not an expert but that sounds just like ralf......
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/th_MOV003.jpg) (http://s1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/?action=view¤t=MOV003.mp4)
BUT.
His timing was ridiculously out and almost certainly had bent exh. valves on bank 1. really struggling to understand how it could sound the same when your timing hasn't been touched :-\
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The car was running beautifully before this and I didn't touch the timing, though I had the casing off momentarily.
I really don't understand what's happened. Could always be coincidence and nothing to do with the maintenance, but I can't help thinking its something I've done.
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Is it possible to check oil pump operation? Or any other ways to check oil circulation? Although I checked that oil was going into the cams, I have no way of knowing if its sufficient or whatever.
Wondering too if oil issues would contribute to the new fault codes.
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the coil packs can give up once removed from engine,both off mine did when i did cam covers last year.
This usually creates a horrendous misfire, nothing to suggest that yours is misfiring :y
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John,have you tried carefully spraying carb cleaner around possible sources of air leaks in the engine while its running ?
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John,have you tried carefully spraying carb cleaner around possible sources of air leaks in the engine while its running ?
No I haven't actually. Where would you recommend? Or I guess it could be nearly everywhere!
I'm going to change the oil and filter too, just in case. I haven't got round to the conversion yet so it's still a stupid canister filter.
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If that noise is an air/vacuum leak its a big one.I would go the whole wat around the engine and spray little and often in the nooks & crannies,see if the revs suddenly shoot up. be careful near exhaust manifold area.Dont want you losing your eyebrows. :D
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Ok mate I'll give that a go too :y
Just gave her an oil and filter change, but I don't think it's made any difference :'(
I didn't run it for very long afterwards, but that shouldn't matter.
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Just listened to the video and its miss firing and running on four pots.
Start with the simplestuff, check ALL the connections, start at the rear of the plenum and work round which should be.
Large breather pipe
Carbon cannister vent pipe
Small breather pipe
Large breather pipe
Rear multiram connector
Injector multiplug
2-4-6 bank ignition module (make sure its FULLY home)
Crank (would not be running but lets be complete)
Main manifold vac pipe (to brake servo)
Cam sensor
Bank 2 knock sensor
Throttle valve plug
Front multiram plug
Bank 1 knock sensor plug (mounted on cam cover cable tray)
MAF plug
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the coil packs can give up once removed from engine,both off mine did when i did cam covers last year.
This usually creates a horrendous misfire, nothing to suggest that yours is misfiring :y
Codes are saying misfire ::)
New -
P0325 Knock sensor 1 circuit high input (Bank 1 or single sensor) or Knock sensor 1 circuit low input (Bank 1 or single sensor)
P0330 Knock sensor 2 circuit high input (Bank 2) or Knock sensor 2 circuit low input (Bank 2
0300 Random/multiple cylinder misfire detected
0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
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Just listened to the video and its miss firing and running on four pots.
Start with the simplestuff, check ALL the connections, start at the rear of the plenum and work round which should be.
Large breather pipe
Carbon cannister vent pipe
Small breather pipe
Large breather pipe
Rear multiram connector
Injector multiplug
2-4-6 bank ignition module (make sure its FULLY home)
Crank (would not be running but lets be complete)
Main manifold vac pipe (to brake servo)
Cam sensor
Bank 2 knock sensor
Throttle valve plug
Front multiram plug
Bank 1 knock sensor plug (mounted on cam cover cable tray)
MAF plug
Will do. Not sure where all the parts are, but I'll go round them in order as best I can. Then I'll get the carb cleaner out too :y
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So,where does the oil come up to feed the cams ? Its not just the bearings which recieve oil,the whole area inside the cam covers swims in oil when the engine is running,to keep the lobes lubed.Thats the critical thing for Jonny.If it is near the half moons as Robson suggested then close inspection around there seems like the next thing to do.
I must say I feel really sorry for the bloke.Its obvious by the length of the thread that we are all trying our best to help,but due to his location its not a matter of someone knowledgeable going and having a look at it for him.Must be very frustrating indeed. :(
Then again,he doesnt have to live among all you English people. :P ;D
Sorry, didn't address this Q at the time.
Many ohc engines have oil jets directed at the cam lobes to lubricate them. From what I can see the V6 relies on oil spilling out of the camshaft bearing caps to lubricate the cam lobes. Being careless with the sealant couldn't block that oil flow.
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Thanks for that Andy :y
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the coil packs can give up once removed from engine,both off mine did when i did cam covers last year.
This usually creates a horrendous misfire, nothing to suggest that yours is misfiring :y
Codes are saying misfire ::)
New -
P0325 Knock sensor 1 circuit high input (Bank 1 or single sensor) or Knock sensor 1 circuit low input (Bank 1 or single sensor)
P0330 Knock sensor 2 circuit high input (Bank 2) or Knock sensor 2 circuit low input (Bank 2
0300 Random/multiple cylinder misfire detected
0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
:-[
My bad must have missed a page in my absence yesterday :-\
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Most of the cam oil supply will come from the feeds to the followers as it spills out the top a bit when the valve is open. Cam bearing supply is from oil feeds through the lower cam bearsings, all are fed via a single drilling and T-vent which restricts the flow to the head.
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Most of the cam oil supply will come from the feeds to the followers as it spills out the top a bit when the valve is open. Cam bearing supply is from oil feeds through the lower cam bearsings, all are fed via a single drilling and T-vent which restricts the flow to the head.
Nothing really that I could have done to upset the flow then? Always a bonus!
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The sound is a missfire, not a mechanical noise.
Its interesting that missfires on are on 1 and 4....if it had a dispack then it would be dead obvious!
The correct coil packs are on the right banks?
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Presumably even pattern coil packs are numbered 135/246 :-\
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The correct coil packs are on the right banks?
Yes, as they were done individually, and not both 'off' at the same time. Got me wondering now though ....
I was a bit confused by the opposite side cylinders misfiring :-\
Is there any point in me rechecking the plugs at this stage?
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Have you double checked the wiring plugs on the coil packs :-\ might be worth unplugging and reconnecting them, making sure that they 'click' home fully :y
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Have you double checked the wiring plugs on the coil packs :-\ might be worth unplugging and reconnecting them, making sure that they 'click' home fully :y
Cheers al, that's on my to do list for tomorrow :y
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In theory the packs are interchangeable side to side, but they don't fit properly but do work which suggests that the coilpack plugs are wired in the same order.
If you happen to have plugged them in slightly skewed, and plugged both in in the same way, the same pin on both plugs may not be fully home causing the misfire on both front cylinders. :y
Which is, I think, what MDTM was hinting at :-\
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Never thought of it like that.
That'll be interesting then when I start playing again tomorrow.
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Just listened to the video and its miss firing and running on four pots.
Start with the simplestuff, check ALL the connections, start at the rear of the plenum and work round which should be.
Large breather pipe
Carbon cannister vent pipe
Small breather pipe
Large breather pipe
Rear multiram connector
Injector multiplug
2-4-6 bank ignition module (make sure its FULLY home)
Crank (would not be running but lets be complete)
Main manifold vac pipe (to brake servo)
Cam sensor
Bank 2 knock sensor
Throttle valve plug
Front multiram plug
Bank 1 knock sensor plug (mounted on cam cover cable tray)
MAF plug
Went out tonight and checked round everything as best as I could. Granted it was done by torchlight! Nothing obvious found. I'll need to take the Plenum back off, and maybe the inlet, so I can fully check the coil connectors (particularly near side) and the breather pipes. I didn't open the main cable tray so can't see it would be something in there, though should I be opening it anyway to check? I'll maybe try to swap some of the o/s plugs just to check on the possible source of that misfire (plug/socket?).
The misfire was present once the initial work was done, so shouldn't be the MAF connector or front multiram, etc but they seem correct in any case.
If I can satisfy myself these are all correct, what's next?
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Actually, the misfire and knock sensor codes only appeared after I drove it, not after the initial work.
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Crank (would not be running but lets be complete)
Main manifold vac pipe (to brake servo)
Cam sensor
Bank 2 knock sensor
What is the location for the first two please?
And the second two - are they the loosely held connections at the front of the nearside cable tray?
Thanks.
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Crank (would not be running but lets be complete) Above and behind the oil filter, connects at rear of cabletray.
Main manifold vac pipe (to brake servo) king great pipe that connects plenum to brake servo, also pipe off non return valve...easy to snap that ::)
Cam sensor. Yes.
Bank 2 knock sensor. No front and top of the cable tray. Tother one in front of engine is Bank 1
What is the location for the first two please?
And the second two - are they the loosely held connections at the front of the nearside cable tray?
Thanks.
Bank 1=right hand side (from drivers seat), cylinders 135,
Bank 2=tother side, cylinders 246.
cylinders numbered from front of engine :y
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Cheers al. Just to make sure I cover everything.
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Should there be an unconnected pipe at the rear of the plenum, on the offside?
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Sorry, cancel. It's the auto box breather isn't it :-[
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Yep. :y Have you checked for trapped cables,vac pipes etc particularily around the front of the camcovers ?
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Can't find anything untoward at all :-\
Nothing seems trapped, loose or unplugged. Put it back together and still the same. Had swapped the 1 and 3 plugs round, just to see if any change to the codes, but there's not.
Where now?
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you made sure those 6 'o' rings between the sandwich plate and plenum are in also? i nearly connected my plenum with one on the floor that i'd missed :-\
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Yes mate I think they're all there thanks.
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I have just sat and read every post in this thread. To be fair I feel sorry for this guy. I know everyone is trying to help him but I do wonder if the guy knows which is his arse from his elbow with so many ideas...
Without offending anyone here as that is not my intention, there are some people who offer ideas who have no clue of what they are talking about. MarkDTM mate is one of the one's to take notice of. What he does not know about cars really ain't worth knowing. :y
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Dont beat around the bush ffs.If you got something to say,just say it. :D ;D ;D
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I have just sat and read every post in this thread. To be fair I feel sorry for this guy. I know everyone is trying to help him but I do wonder if the guy knows which is his arse from his elbow with so many ideas...
Without offending anyone here as that is not my intention, there are some people who offer ideas who have no clue of what they are talking about. MarkDTM mate is one of the one's to take notice of. What he does not know about cars really ain't worth knowing. :y
Yep, I'll hold my hands up and say I've offered some ideas without knowing whether they're correct or not...well more educated guesses... apologies for that and I won't be adding anymore.
Would love to hear your thoughts though Daz as this has gone 14 pages with no apparent solution. :y
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Short version.Jonny car was running fine.He replaced camcover gaskets and now has what is apparently the worst misfire imaginable. Sems to have checked all the obvious things several times,but nothing obviously wrong. Beats me tbh. Wish I could help,but Ive no fresh ideas to offer.Poor bloke must be tearing his hair out.OOF brains usually come up with the solution long before now. :(
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I'll get a reply to the above posts shortly, but in the interest of completeness I thought I'd check the timing as suggested. I don't have the 'kit' to do this properly, and I haven't touched it prior to the problems, but thought I would post a few pics before reassembly. I know it'll be hard to say for sure, but anything obviously wrong would stand out wouldn't it?
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/photo-3.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/photo-4.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k295/jonny2112/photo-5.jpg)
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Timing looks good (assuming crank was set on the TDC mark :y).
When you did the cam covers, did you remove the injector connections from the injectors or the single multiplug at the rear.
Have you checked plugs 1 and 4 e.g. remove them and inspect them?
It might be worth trying to see if you are getting a spark on no 1 and 4 coil pack. This wont be easy without a test plug but you should be able rig something up with a suitably positioned screw driver inserted into the coil pack boot once the coil pack is removed from the 1-3-5 back (as this is easiest to do). try to set it so there is a 20-30mm gap between the screwdriver shaft and something metallic and grounded for the spark to jump to.
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Timing looks good (assuming crank was set on the TDC mark :y).
When you did the cam covers, did you remove the injector connections from the injectors or the single multiplug at the rear.
Have you checked plugs 1 and 4 e.g. remove them and inspect them?
It might be worth trying to see if you are getting a spark on no 1 and 4 coil pack. This wont be easy without a test plug but you should be able rig something up with a suitably positioned screw driver inserted into the coil pack boot once the coil pack is removed from the 1-3-5 back (as this is easiest to do). try to set it so there is a 20-30mm gap between the screwdriver shaft and something metallic and grounded for the spark to jump to.
Sorry, just turned crank by hand until the first notch lined up, didn't consider TDC without the locking device :-[ I'll have a look at that shortly before reassembly.
Removed the multiplug itself. I swapped plug 1 with plug 3 in an attempt to test the plug (not sure if this is right) but the fault code still indicates no. 1, with no mention of no.3. Can the injector plugs be switched, to rule that out? Or disconnected in some way? Though I guess this would add more codes :-\
In relation to testing the spark, I'll have to work up to that :o
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If there is a problem with the coil pack, bearing in mind I have swapped some plugs to no avail, and there is a missfire, could that possibly cause such a racket? And would the knock sensors be reacting to the missfire?
I haven't checked the spark yet as Master directs, as I'm not entirely confident in carrying it out, so not sure there is a problem, but just trying to work it out in my head :-X
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Jonny, at my parents I have a pair of coil packs I bought for my 3.2 as "spares" - Think I bought them either from Albs or Twiglet, can't remember now :-[
Either way, they are still wrapped up in my garage. Next time I'm back home, I can post them to you, use them to see if it makes a difference? (2.6/3.2 are same for coil packs)
Normally I can't see coil pack failing just after cam cover change, but this thread has almost exhausted everything else :-\
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Wasnt me Mark,must have been Twigs. Thats a very decent thing to do btw.The OOF spirit in practice once again. :y
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Wasnt me Mark,must have been Twigs. Thats a very decent thing to do btw.The OOF spirit in practice once again. :y
Ahh ok, I bought several things from you guys at the same time, could not remember what I got from who :-[
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Jonny, at my parents I have a pair of coil packs I bought for my 3.2 as "spares" - Think I bought them either from Albs or Twiglet, can't remember now :-[
Either way, they are still wrapped up in my garage. Next time I'm back home, I can post them to you, use them to see if it makes a difference? (2.6/3.2 are same for coil packs)
Normally I can't see coil pack failing just after cam cover change, but this thread has almost exhausted everything else :-\
That's extremely kind, thank you very much.
And I think you're right ............. :'(
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Wasnt me Mark,must have been Twigs. Thats a very decent thing to do btw.The OOF spirit in practice once again. :y
Slipped up there pal ;D
And yes, extremely generous :y
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Not convinced......having two coil packs fail at the same time on cylinders that happen to 360deg apart on firing angle.....
Adding more unknowns to the mix is not to be advised, diag is the key at this stage (hence the check for a spark :y )
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If there is a problem with the coil pack, bearing in mind I have swapped some plugs to no avail, and there is a missfire, could that possibly cause such a racket? And would the knock sensors be reacting to the missfire?
I haven't checked the spark yet as Master directs, as I'm not entirely confident in carrying it out, so not sure there is a problem, but just trying to work it out in my head :-X
That noise you hear is a miss fire from the engine not running smoothly as a result (heard such before).
Knock sensors will detect the clatter (seen them detect buggered alternator bearings before on the 1-3-5 bank!) and/or raise a code as a knock 'is missing' (less likely on the 2.5/3.0 but true for the 2.6/3.2).
Its easy enough to do the park test.
Simply pull the pack on the 1-3-5 bank, insert a suitable item into the plug boot so there is a gap of 20-30mm to a metal grounded item and give it a quick crank over.
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Could you not do it with a spark plug test light that way you would still see the spark.
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Could you not do it with a spark plug test light that way you would still see the spark.
Would you believe the only place I can get one is the bay? I had a look yesterday after Mark mentioned it and none of my local factors have one.
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Coil pack is out and just going to put the plenum etc back on. Hopefully there'll be enough play in the connector to allow the pack to be reconnected and manoeuvred.
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You really would be better getting an "in line type " .Sealey do that type with a probe with a light chamber and plug cap on about 100mm of lead.They work fine on an Omega as they are long enough to reach down onto the plug.
I have 2 as found that way you can test adjacent firing plugs,although I have older set up of plugs /leads and Dispack.
Would have thought decent factor would stock them...try search for Sealey stockist close to your home postal code.
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You realy want a stand alone one with an adjustable gap but it can be done as already described with a bit of ingenuity.
We dont want the plugs in the equation for this task, as simple a test as possible.
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Would a screw inserted in the boot be sufficient? I've tried this first and am not getting a spark to any of the bank so guessing its not enough?
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Right. Felt a spark using a circuit tester (I know :-[) across all three on the drivers bank.
Haven't tried passenger side yet. Is there anything else I should try before refitting the coil pack, removing and replacing the plenum, etc?
Also, if the misfire isn't in the coil, where next? I've ordered new plugs, though I had already swapped two to test on this bank.
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May not be relevant but......
When I changed my thermostat I found it easier to undo the bolts securing the inlet manifold if I unplugged the injectors first.
I imagine that failing to securely attach the injector plugs would have caused misfires on the cylinders they served :-\
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Thanks Andy. I did remove the main plug at the rear rather than each injector. In hindsight you're probably right, and it may have been easier. I've had the plenum off numerous times, and the bagpipes, aux belt, etc. I've only had the inlet off a few times and I really don't want to do it again!
It's not that difficult or anything. It just gets on my nerves :D
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A spark is not enough. Listen to what Mark is saying...
My car had several misfire issues which were eventually sorted, more or less with a new loom.
BUT, and it's a big one,
The only thing that testing, including Tech 2 could find was that one coil, in my case pot 6, was producing 40,000 volts instead of 60,000 volts.
Try Marks suggestion, first at 10mm, then 20mm, then 30mm, and finally at 40mm. Do this for each and every HT terminal. If one, or more struggles to produce a spark at 30 or 40mm, then you'll be able to see it :y as the weaker coils won't produce a spark strong enough to bridge the air gap...
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Mmm. I inserted a screw into each boot, and using an insulated screwdriver, got no spark. Visible or otherwise. In a change of tact I swapped the screwdriver for one of those circuit testing ones. I know I shouldn't have. On each of the drivers bank plugs I felt the shock as I approached the screw. I didn't see it, but perhaps I had not created the right conditions.
Obviously this is not sufficient then, so back to the drawing board.
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Make sure you are following Mark's suggestion correctly. The screwdriver shaft (or screw if that's what you're using) needs to have a gap for the spark to jump - the other side of the gap must be a metallic object that is earthed.
Doesn't sound like you've got that side earthed. Quick basics of electricity for you - electricity will always find the quickest route to earth, which is usually through the circuit designed for it which will be earthed. If however the energy is sufficient the electricity will instead arc to a nearby object if that is it's closest & quickest route to earth. This arcing is what will cause a visible spark. This is why you should never enter a high voltage substation, as at 400,000V there is enough energy for it to arc over 3m through the air to use your body as it's quickest route to earth resulting in one charred body for someone to clear up!
What you are trying to achieve by earthing is to tempt the electricity to arc showing you a spark. If you are using an insulated screwdriver, there is no route to earth for the electricity hence no spark. Further to this, Al's suggestion to try different distances will give you an idea of the energy in that spark. If it sparks at 10mm but not any further this may suggest there is not enough energy to arc the distance, and if the others do arc further this may point out a coil that is weaker.
Sounds like when you used the circuit testing screwdriver, you became it's route to earth hence the shock you got. Suggest you set it up so you can view the spark in the gap without physically touching anything to avoid any further shocks.
Hope that helps (and I'm not teaching you to suck eggs).
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Hope that helps (and I'm not teaching you to suck eggs).
Yes it does, and no you're not. Any help very much appreciated :y
Under these circumstances, how would you do it? There is very little play on the connection so the position of the coil pack is virtually dictated. Any guidance welcome.
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I did something like this to test the spark on my bike engine years ago.I got a pice of plywood around 75mm square.Cut a hole around 45mm in dia in the centre,then hammered a long nail in from each side until the end of each nail protruded through the hole and they were a set distance (about 30mm in this case) apart.Then attach a wire to the other end of one of the nails and ran it into th plug cap (jammed in there with a screwdriver or piece of wood,cant remember tbh).Anyway - when the engine is turned over you then get a spark arcing between the pointed ends of the nails.
That probably sounds like gobbledegook in written form but it worked.
Btw Jonny,did the bolts arrive ok ?
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Btw Jonny,did the bolts arrive ok ?
Sorry mate, yes they did. I totally forgot to let you know, apologies :-[
And thanks for that, I'll have to have a think!!
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Not a problem mate,I know you have a lot on your plate at the moment. :y
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Rigged up a device to test the spark and nipped out to the car. When I'd got home this morning I found the stereo was on, so guess what? Now the battery's flat >:(
And so is the booster >:(.
Aaaghh!
Will have to wait for it to charge up, and hope it'll be enough to start it. Might have to replace the coil though to ensure it fires ........
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Thanks Andy. I did remove the main plug at the rear rather than each injector. In hindsight you're probably right, and it may have been easier. I've had the plenum off numerous times, and the bagpipes, aux belt, etc. I've only had the inlet off a few times and I really don't want to do it again!
It's not that difficult or anything. It just gets on my nerves :D
Is there a chance that any injector plugs became dislodged while you were getting the bolts out?
People are (quite rightly) discussing ways of checking for sparks but a lack of fuel would also cause a misfire. (that said I suspect the 2.6 ECU would probably report "injector low voltage" for any injector that wasn't connected)
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OMG!!
Fully charged booster never looked near it. Lights on dash, turned the key and ..... Nothing >:(
Put the battery on charge for about two hours, and still nothing >:(
I'm at work now so will put the charger back on in the morning and it'll probably get a good 4 or 5 hours worth. I'm hoping that'll be enough to get her going again.
The stereo might have been on for a maximum of 10 hours, but I thought the booster would have sorted it. Hope I'm not going to need a new battery on top of everything else, ffs :'(
Oh, and thanks Andy. I'll be checking the individual injectors too :y
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It must be a real nightmare you trying to sort this out :( really hope you can get to the bottom of it after all the effort you have put in jonny .
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When you test the coil packs, bear in mind that the Plenum/Inlet Manifold is NOT earthed :y
Made that mistake before :-[
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It must be a real nightmare you trying to sort this out :( really hope you can get to the bottom of it after all the effort you have put in jonny .
Thanks mate :y
I know we'll get there, it's just taking so long :(
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When you test the coil packs, bear in mind that the Plenum/Inlet Manifold is NOT earthed :y
Made that mistake before :-[
That's appreciated al as I had considered it ::)
In the end I went down the Albitz route, but I wasn't even able to see if it was going to work :-X
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Well at least the battery charged up ok and I got her started.
I'll get testing it tomorrow, all being well :y
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Well that's it ..... I've had enough :(
I can't work out the spark test thing, and I can't find anything else 'wrong'.
I'm going to have to try and find a suitable garage / mechanic to have a look at it for me; if I can find one I can trust :-X AND who knows what he's talking about :D
Just wanted to say a MASSIVE thank you to everyone who has offered advice, etc - it is very much appreciated :y
I didn't want to let it beat me, but I think it has :'(
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If you were trying the device I tried to explain Jonny,I should have said - the other nail needs to have a wire going from it to ground.
Dont know if that helps any.Dont give up mate. ;)
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If you were trying the device I tried to explain Jonny,I should have said - the other nail needs to have a wire going from it to ground.
Dont know if that helps any.Dont give up mate. ;)
I'm trying ::)
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I know its not what master would do, however how about I send you the couple of coil packs?
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Cant do any harm can it ? ;)
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Yes I was still thinking about those, but didn't really want to 'put you out' or cause any hassle if I couldn't prove mine were faulty :-X
It is such a generous offer though, so maybe I should just carry on and give it another go?
I'll get back to you tomorrow tunnie :y
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Yes I was still thinking about those, but didn't really want to 'put you out' or cause any hassle if I couldn't prove mine were faulty :-X
It is such a generous offer though, so maybe I should just carry on and give it another go?
I'll get back to you tomorrow tunnie :y
No probs :y
Its no trouble they are already wrapped so just looking at postage costs, although I have no idea how much postage would be :-\
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PM sent Jonny. If you want to sort out some cheap sleazyjet flights over a weekend / set of restdays, I'll come over FOC and have a long day looking at this for you, given the crazy amount of hassle and expense you've had.
If I do - I wouldn't mind taking those Coil packs with me JIC. Although I agree with Mark about the likelyhood, it would be nice to have any spares necessary. If that happens Tunnie, we'll work out a way to get them over to Aylesbury over the next week or so...
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Sounds like a plan is forming here. I'm planning to be back Brackley way at the weekend, why Aylesbury? Did not know you were over that way James?
Sure we can find somewhere in between Saturday :y
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Thanks a lot James, it may come to that!
Nipped out this morning and had a more patient attempt at the spark ;)
Not a great set up I admit, and I was able to make it adjustable, but I only got a spark on all three (1-3-5) at around 10mm ish. Ironically it seemed that no 1 was the strongest?
Not sure what that means overall, but judging from previous advice I should be getting a stronger spark than that? Codes still show misfire on 1 and 4, so not sure the apparently poor spark is having an effect. As said though, it could be the setup.
I'll need to try the other side now for comparison I suppose.
Sorry tunnie, missed that, but thank you :y
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Just before we seriously look at booking flights... has this been compression tested? I know nothing should have affected the compression... but I'd hate to come all that way just to say "yea, no compression, engine's screwed mate"... might be worth you getting a gunson compression tester and seeing what each pot returns... :y :y
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Any progress on this one Jonny ? All seems to have gone quiet recently. :-\
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No mate, not yet. I'm having to book it in locally I think and hope that the problem may be properly found, and ultimately, fixed :y
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Cant believe that OOF hasnt managed to come up with the answer in the end.It doesnt happen very often. Would have probably been easier if you were located where someone could nip over and take a look without having to resort to sleazyjet etc. :(
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Location is definitely a big factor. Well, that and my lack of ability :D
But yes, disappointed that I couldn't get to the bottom of it :(
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Cant believe that OOF hasnt managed to come up with the answer in the end.It doesnt happen very often. Would have probably been easier if you were located where someone could nip over and take a look without having to resort to sleazyjet etc. :(
Albs, sounds like this could be the perfect excuse for me and you to have a lads weekend away on the lash pop over to your homeland to help a fellow member out... ;) ;D :y
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Unfortunately I cant do that in the near future James. :(
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Cant believe that OOF hasnt managed to come up with the answer in the end.It doesnt happen very often. Would have probably been easier if you were located where someone could nip over and take a look without having to resort to sleazyjet etc. :(
Albs, sounds like this could be the perfect excuse for me and you to have a lads weekend away on the lash pop over to your homeland to help a fellow member out... ;) ;D :y
count me in if you go ;D ;D
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Jonny, I'd still gladly consider coming over on my rests, but we do need to get it compression tested first. It would be daft (for the sake of your pocket) me coming all that way just to do a simple test... :y
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Yep, I missed that in your last post initially. I don't have the equipment (though should really check that out), but am making arrangements to have it done on Monday :y
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Yep, I missed that in your last post initially. I don't have the equipment (though should really check that out), but am making arrangements to have it done on Monday :y
No worries mate, and nice one. They cost about £20, so if you're being charged much more then get one yourself, always useful in the toolbox :)
Basically, car needs air, fuel, spark and compression to run. So need to try and check the last one on the list :)
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I see halfrauds do a tester for £25. Not sure if its available with their TC?
If I do manage to get one, what am I looking for? If I test all six plugs, am I looking for variance?
Edit - must type faster ;)
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I see halfrauds do a tester for £25. Not sure if its available with their TC?
If I do manage to get one, what am I looking for? If I test all six plugs, am I looking for variance?
Edit - must type faster ;)
Just make sure each one has compression really. If you were looking for head gasket trouble, which you're not obviously, then variance would be the key between any 2 cylinders... but in this instance we just want to make sure each one has compresion, especially the cylinders which are throwing codes.
I think it will be fine but does need ruling out :y
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Fair enough mate :y
I'll try and sort something out then.
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check out my ''mechanic school blog''. i recently did one for the first time. piece of piddle.
:)
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Cheers Webby :y
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Ideally looking for at least 8.5 bar, but as James has already said, as long as they register compression and are all similar, the it helps to rule it out :y
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no probs mate... here's the link.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=106724.135
you want to read how i do it on page 9
BUT YOU MUST ALSO READ MarkDTM's observations on page 10 to get it exactly right (as i think i forgot to mention having a wide open throttle when doing it ::) :y
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A major variance between cylinders is the biggest indicator that theres a problem.Its also possible that all cylinders could be reading very low.
Best approach imo is to do what I did.Get a tester,note the figures for each cylinder and post them on here for advice.
Plenty of youtube vids to show how to use one,although its pretty straightforward. :y
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Cheers guys :y
Another positive step, though will obviously depend on the results :-X
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also to work out roughly what psi youre looking for on each pot....
atmospheric pressure (14.7) X compression ratio (which i believe is 10.8:1) = 173psi
someone may need to double check that though as i have been drinking :)
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Iirc the official 3.2 figure is 9.5 bar, presumably in a new engine, so just over 9 would be perfectly acceptable if its done a few miles :y
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Sorry for barging in on the party but could you have maybe pinched a cam sensor wire while working in that general area, I just seems a bit off to be having compression problems when it was working perfectly well before you had the plenium, cam covers and timing covers off.
Shot in the dark I know but I agree with the guys about the misfire and the evidence from the codes certainly suggests electrical over mechanical, just a thought as knackered cam sensors can still run an engine, just really poorly! we are rooting for you fella.
If im wrong please feel free to tell me to wind my neck in and ill go back to just keeping up with the posts :y
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I completely agree tbh,but it wont do any harm to check compression before a member has to suffer sleazyjet to go and have a look at it. :y
Nipped wire would be worth having a look for,although Im not sure it could cause it to run that rough. :-\
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Cam sensor cable runs from the cable tray, but to where? It's the knock sensor that runs around the front of the cam cover, isn't it?
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Cam sensor cable runs from the cable tray, but to where? It's the knock sensor that runs around the front of the cam cover, isn't it?
If the cam sensor wiring was damaged I'd expect a code :/
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Thought that myself. Just checking.
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Cleared all the fault codes today with one of those diagnostic things, but there are no codes now after startup. I think I'll have to drive it to get any codes back.
Also thought that I would try disconnecting the MAF, only because it was handy, and oft mentioned. No change though to running :(
Anything else worth unplugging to test with engine running?
Or is that a stupid idea :-[
Oh, and haven't got round to compression test yet. :-X
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Does it run any better with the codes cleared :-\
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No mate, still noisy :(
Just a thought too ....... if I unplug something and there is NO change, that could mean that either the part unplugged has no bearing on the issue, or it is already defective ...... ???
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Hmmm bit of both, but as a basic rule of thumb, if unplugging something improves the symptoms then that part is probably dead, if it worsens then the part is probably ok. No change would also suggest that that part has no bearing on the issue. :-\
If one part makes no change, and unplugging everything else makes it worse, then that 'no change' part could well be faulty :y
Hth, Al :y
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Would unplugging cam or knock sensors, for example, with engine running have any ( further ) adverse effect?
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Well, just collected the car from the garage with no real change. Only fault code was the MAF which was probably as a result of me unplugging it. No other codes or anything showed up. Weird!
Still as noisy, like bad tappets, but not lumpy or anything.
So, driving home the engine electronics symbol starts to flash, and stays on permanently for about the last mile ish of my journey. Now it feels a bit lumpy. Got home, switched her off and back on again, and the light goes out as normal. Checked fault codes (pedal) and got three -
0300 random misfire
0304 no 4 misfire
0325 knock sensor bank 1.
So no further on really. Next step - replace plugs and carry out compression test. Might throw a can of Wynns treatment into it, and maybe have another look at the timing too.
Feel like I'm flogging a dead horse now, but if anyone has any other thoughts please just let me know.
I think I'll be looking for a mobile mechanic soon .......
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I still think it will be something simple and probably igntion related.Im no expert though,far from it.
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As discussed, I'm home soon so will post coil packs, it's something else that you can rule that out.
Interesting misfire on pot 4, had you not already put new plugs in?
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Thanks mate :y
When I first went to get the plugs, dealer only had two :o. I fitted these to one and three.
Got the others last week but didn't fit them :-[
There was a misfire previously on four, and on one, which has now disappeared. Also both knock sensors previously showing, with only one now.
Strange though that the misfire and knock sensor currently indicated are on opposite banks :-\
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also to work out roughly what psi youre looking for on each pot....
atmospheric pressure (14.7) X compression ratio (which i believe is 10.8:1) = 173psi
someone may need to double check that though as i have been drinking :)
It is a bit more complicated than that.
When the air (& fuel) is drawn into the cylinder the restriction of the inlet passages means that the pressure in the cylinder when the piston is at the bottom of the stroke is a bit less than atmospheric which therefore reduces the maximum pressure at the top of the stroke.
On the other hand....... as the air fuel mixture is compressed it gets hot which in turn raises the maximum pressure. The heat generated quickly transfers to the cold cylinder walls so the effect is greatest with a good battery and high cranking speed.
When I have carried out a compression test I have measured a higher pressure than the simple maths (atmospheric pressure X compression ratio) would suggest. The key is that all cylinders should give a reading within about 10% of the others.
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Other problem with calculating compression pressure is that there will always be an intake valve open until a fair way up the compression stroke so, depending on the cam timing, this will reduce the pressure.
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What you will also find is that the knock sensors are very sensitive. They pick up the misfire, send a signal to the ECU which then tries to control the knock by adjusting the fueling. This only makes the engine misfire more. :'(
Change the plugs, disconnect both knock sensors, reset the light and take it for a spin. The knock sensors will put the light on, but you can ignore the codes as you know they are disconnected, any other codes should point towards the problem.
If the only codes you get back are 0300 and 0304 the that only leaves the coil pack and the wiring :y
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Thanks al. I'd hoped to get this done this evening but it didn't happen.
Tomorrow morning :y
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Well changed the plugs and had a quick spin with the knock sensors disconnected and them connected. No change :(
Codes -
0300
0304
0325
0340 (I disconnected wrong sensor for test so can disregard :-[)
0325 again!?
0330
Nothing new or unexpected, except 0325 showing twice. I'll need to nip it down to the garage to reset the codes tomorrow to see if the new plugs cured the misfire though not convinced.
Idles as normal at around 500 rpm, but a little lumpy. Seems a bit reluctant to change gear, revving to about 2500-3000 from 1st before changing. Down on power too obviously.
Wasn't able to get the compression tester for today, which was a mistake on my part as it could have been tested while changing the plugs (especially no 6 !!).
For the compression test I guess the top end needs to be complete except for the plugs?
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Either coil pack or wiring then. :y
Try a pair of known good coil packs, ( I know only pot 4 playing up, but if one is on its way out, tother side won't be far behind :'().
If that doesn't work, then a new loom is required.
Others can recommend coil pack providers, new about £60-80 each, loom is GM only and £120 ish from VX.
A second hand loom in mine is better than the old one but still not perfect. Only fitted because 3 sets of coil packs, including new all gave the same symptoms.
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Cheers al. You seem confident that its electrical, and I'm making arrangements with tunnie to try some coil packs, so fingers crossed ;)
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Pretty much everything else has been ruled out, so hopefully nearly there :y
Suspect my problem stemmed from the plugs being loose, drawing a bit more current through the coil looms, not helped by one of the plugs breaking up. Coil packs were ruled out as well, leaving the loom, even tried a different ecu to rule that out. :-\
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And was it sudden? Or did you have symptoms beforehand?
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First sign of a problem was the core electrode (and half of its insulation) of spark plug number 6 being swallowed by that cylinder ::) All the other plugs were loose, but that one failed first.
Had a persistent, but variable misfire from then on. Was fine from start if you drove off straight away, but as soon as the revs dropped below about 2k, it would start missing. Then, if it was left to idle it used to shut down at least 2 cylinders, which confused the knock sensors causing the ECU to try to adjust the fuelling to compensate for ignition knock that didn't exist. Disconnecting them helped, but obviously put the spanner light on.
The only two measurable things that stood out were: 1. Fuel trims were all over the place, and 2. The spark at cylinder 6 was only 40kv, rather than 60kv that the other 5 were managing.
Having ruled out most everything else, I tried changing a section of the coil pack looms to see if that helped as both plugs were corroded, but no real change. Hence ending up with a loom change. Not perfect now but notably better that it was :y.
Not sure why, but this car has never idled particularly smoothly, but it least it does now idle ::)
Was a mare of a process tbh, changed the plugs, both coil packs-twice, inlet manifold+injectors, throttle body, MAF sensor, ECU, radio suppressor and eventually the loom. The only consistent codes were 0300, 0306 and, if it got really arsy, 0304 and 0305 :-\
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Sounds like a nightmare :o
I had no symptoms or problems at all. If it hadn't been for the leaking gaskets, oh and the 'dodgy'? stat, I wouldn't be in this mess :-\
Getting my hopes up again that the coil pack will make a difference ::)
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Hope so :y
The weather's turning a bit too Autumnal to be messing around with stone cold engines :-\
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Indeed it is! And I still never got round to fixing the drivers heat pad :'(
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I'm hoping Jonny is going to post shortly that following replacement coil packs its working, fingers crossed :y
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I'm hoping Jonny is going to post shortly that following replacement coil packs its working, fingers crossed :y
Yeah , feel sorry for him ... he must be ripping his hair out :( Hope you make some headway with it ;)
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Sorry guys, no news yet. Changed the nearside pack as it was still showing misfire on 4, but the battery's flat >:(
Charging it now so should know later :-X
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Replacement packs have made no difference :'(
Need to get the codes cleared and see what shows up.
I'll need to start looking elsewhere now though, as providing the packs are ok, then I'm not sure it's ignition based problem.
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Replacement packs have made no difference :'(
Need to get the codes cleared and see what shows up.
I'll need to start looking elsewhere now though, as providing the packs are ok, then I'm not sure it's ignition based problem.
Bugger :(
I double checked, I sourced them from Elite Pete, known working when he removed them. At a loss now as to what suggest :'( :-\
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Replacement packs have made no difference :'(
Need to get the codes cleared and see what shows up.
I'll need to start looking elsewhere now though, as providing the packs are ok, then I'm not sure it's ignition based problem.
The coil packs never were going to solve it, it was lottery odds.
Did you do a compression test?
If I get chance, I will re-aquaint myself with the wiring diagrams now I am back from Brazil
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Me too :-\
Back to the beginning I think. I can't see it being anything to do with the stat, unless the b bolt and engine mount plate can foul anything in that area? Don't really want to disturb it again as the coolant seems ok, etc.
I can't feel or see anything trapped in the cam covers, and although I don't really want to remove them again (I did remove and inspect at the start of this) I may have to. I have had the plenum and inlet off and on several times and don't believe I could be doing something wrong in that respect on every occasion?
There's nothing to the sandwich plate either, providing all seals are present.
Suppose I may have to inspect the timing again, ensuring tdc, though I don't believe the problem lies there. It would just be something else to rule out ...... again!
Tried a garage with no joy. I guess Vx might just be the same, only more expensive :-\
Compression test too I think, just to check.
Although I don't understand engines, etc I did think the replacement coil packs were the answer :'(
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Replacement packs have made no difference :'(
Need to get the codes cleared and see what shows up.
I'll need to start looking elsewhere now though, as providing the packs are ok, then I'm not sure it's ignition based problem.
The coil packs never were going to solve it, it was lottery odds.
Did you do a compression test?
If I get chance, I will re-aquaint myself with the wiring diagrams now I am back from Brazil
Sorry, missed this!
I'll need to do the compression test, and thanks.
Car still starts perfectly, and runs without much ado. If it ran perfectly but was noisy, then I'd consider lifters, but I think there's more to it than that .....
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If it happened after you did the work then I still think that chances are it was something you touched :-\ (think about every electrical connector and vacuum pipe you touched)
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I had initially moved away from that idea. Partly because of the noise, and as I thought I had checked everything.
I agree with you though, that its just too coincidental, and I need to retrace my steps again.
If only I had an idea :-\
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Breather pipes on in right order? :-\
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I had initially moved away from that idea. Partly because of the noise, and as I thought I had checked everything.
I agree with you though, that its just too coincidental, and I need to retrace my steps again.
If only I had an idea :-\
Do make sure you have not connecetd the gearbox breather to the breatehr bridge by mistake and left the engine breather dangling.
Is there a loudish sucking sound from any area?
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Breather pipes on in right order? :-\
Think so. The fl has the distinction of different sizes for dummies like me!
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I had initially moved away from that idea. Partly because of the noise, and as I thought I had checked everything.
I agree with you though, that its just too coincidental, and I need to retrace my steps again.
If only I had an idea :-\
Do make sure you have not connecetd the gearbox breather to the breatehr bridge by mistake and left the engine breather dangling.
Is there a loudish sucking sound from any area?
No sucking that I can hear, particularly over the other noise.
Going to strip it back down to the stat again, as far as it was initially, in the event that I can find something I may have disturbed though not been specifically working at. Fairly confident in putting the plenum and inlet back together and don't think I've made any mistakes there. I'll check the breather box and the individual injectors too, though didn't really want to upset them.
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Right. Down as far as sandwich plate. No visible obstructions. Don't see any point really in removing it?
Gearbox breather loose. Large and small breather pipes connected to the box. No obstructions or anything to o/s cam cover.
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All injectors seem fully home. No damage or bent pins, etc on multiplug.
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Had a good look in round the back of the plenum area, round hbv, etc but can't see anything untoward. Thought there was a spare plug, but it was just my eyesight :D
Everything seems intact.
Heading to work shortly, so am leaving it as it is.
Any thoughts welcome in the meantime :y
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Are you still having the same problem with this car?
Could it be possible with you not taking the wires out of the cable tray when changing the cam cover gaskets, you have pulled or broken a wire? The reason I ask this is because every cam cover I have removed I always release the wires from the cable tray over the oil filler to allow room.
There are three small earth wires from the loom that bolt onto a bracket at the rear of this head....... also on a 2.6 & 3.2 there is a small brown wire that looks easy to break.
Just ideas nothing more.
Daz x
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Cheers Daz. Funny, I was thinking about the cable tray from the last time. I don't remove it when doing the cam cover, but agree that in manoeuvring it out of the way, something may have been disturbed. Certainly it is an area that I haven't yet inspected, and I can't see anything else atm. I did notice two very fine single wires towards the bulkhead, which lead to my previous comment about the spare plug, as I didn't see the cable on the other end.
Any and all ideas most welcome :y
The n/s cam cover looks secure and nothing trapped. I'm loathe to remove these again and disturb them, unless there would be a specific reason for me to do so?
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I don't believe you have trapped anything under the cam covers. Especially when you removed the said cam cover and replaced it checking nothing was in between.
If you remove the cable tray that runs from front to back over the oil filler it carries a whole load of wires. There are three all with ring electrical connectors on the end (ones you can put a 6mm both through) that are all separately bolted to the dispack plate on the passenger side.
I am trying to think if the 2.6 & 3.2 have these three wires or the single brown wire that has a sort of inline box on the wire if that makes sense (wiring is not my thing lol)..
I would check all of the wires in that area mate as that seems to me too be the prime suspect place.
Maybe wrong but worth checking... also there should be nothing in the way of connecters that are not connected to anything.
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Cheers Daz, I'll check it in the morning and see what's what :y
I guess that'll be something else ruled out if nothing else.
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Cheers Daz, I'll check it in the morning and see what's what :y
I guess that'll be something else ruled out if nothing else.
I can not honestly think what else it could be.
If all you have actually done is to change a cam cover then all this happens after I think it's rather a long shot for something else to break whilst your fixing the cam covers. Unless of course you have either broken something, trapped or left something unplugged.
Like I say I would check if you have pulled a little too hard on the wiring loom as there are a few small breakable wires.
Good Luck hunting :y
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This wire goes to a little black box (radio interference suppressor?) by the rear multiram solenoid, which is bolted to the back of the 246 head. This wire connects directly to the coil pack feed from the ECU, and exits the cabletray along with the multiram and coil pack loom. If it is loose, don't for the love of god earth it :o otherwise you will melt everything in the cable tray ::)
Mine was disconnected by corrosion, but re connecting it made absolutely no difference to my misfire.
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There is a (circular ?) multiplug at the front of the engine that connects the engine loom to the loom near the battery tray. It shouldn't be easy to disturb but if you have been pulling on the loom in the cable tray it may have been dislodged :-\
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Thanks guys. Tomorrow is another day ::)
I do think though, that if nothing is discovered, that we've virtually exhausted the electrical options, and I'll need to change tact :(
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I know it's been touched on before, but I'm going to play devils advocate. This is mainly because of my ignorance, and lack of understanding, and is not intended to offend or make me appear ungrateful. That is certainly not the case. But I'm at work and the cars not, and I'm pondering .....
So, the source of the problem is believed to be a misfire, the cause of which I'm searching for. Atm all roads are pointing to electrical breakdown somewhere, and the understanding that the subsequent racket is brought about by the misfire. Is it possible that its the other way round? That the rattle is mechanical and causing the misfire? Whilst I appreciate codes aren't apparent in every situation, should they be showing in this one?
For example, we mentioned oil and lifters. Is it conceivable that if there was a problem with dry lifters that they could cause the noise, and any subsequent misfire?
With any luck I'll open the cable tray tomorrow and 'bingo'!! But if not, I'm just thinking of the next path to take. Just a thought, because really I don't know what I'm talking about :-X :D
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Noise yes, misfires no. Misfires are generally fuel or spark related :-\ lifters just make noise...
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Noise yes, misfires no. Misfires are generally fuel or spark related :-\ lifters just make noise...
Thanks for that al. I'll keep quiet now :-X
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Well had a quick look at the cable tray this morning - it's a bu@@er to remove, isn't it? The two clips close together at the bend ...... :-X
Anyway, can't see how anything would get broken in there. It's well bound up at the ends, and exiting cables are covered. I'll have another look at the bulkhead end / exit just to be sure.
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I think the point is .. when you do the cam cover gaskets you have to lift the tray/loom out of the way, I remove the tray completely and tie the loom up out of the way .. you didn't .. THEREFORE it is POSSIBLE that you have s-t-r-e-c-h-e-d the cables inside the tray so causing damage. The fact that the bindings at the end "look good" is of little proof.
When I had an insurance repair done to my rear bumper, it would appear that they never fully disconnected the reversing sensors when they took off the bumper .... it was a few weeks later that i started to get problems, and took over three months of faffing to solve .. although the cables all LOOKED good, somewhere in there was a stretch break that was intermittent, and caused varying voltages/currents, such that eventually 3 out of 4 sensors also failed.
A new loom (and sensors) fixed it instantly ... even though I had examined the loom meticulously.
MY advice, at this stage .. bite the bullet, take the tray apart and examine the internal loom as best you can.
A mate of mine had a 2.5 V6 some years back where that loom melted due to a short, it cost him a lot of time and money to fix, as he was unable to "prove" it was caused by the Vx garage who serviced it - including cam covers - just 3 months before....... and this sounds very similar to his problems .. :(
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I know it's been touched on before, but I'm going to play devils advocate. This is mainly because of my ignorance, and lack of understanding, and is not intended to offend or make me appear ungrateful. That is certainly not the case. But I'm at work and the cars not, and I'm pondering .....
So, the source of the problem is believed to be a misfire, the cause of which I'm searching for. Atm all roads are pointing to electrical breakdown somewhere, and the understanding that the subsequent racket is brought about by the misfire. Is it possible that its the other way round? That the rattle is mechanical and causing the misfire? Whilst I appreciate codes aren't apparent in every situation, should they be showing in this one?
For example, we mentioned oil and lifters. Is it conceivable that if there was a problem with dry lifters that they could cause the noise, and any subsequent misfire?
With any luck I'll open the cable tray tomorrow and 'bingo'!! But if not, I'm just thinking of the next path to take. Just a thought, because really I don't know what I'm talking about :-X :D
I would try a compression test to rule out mechanical issues, personally.
We had an issue with TheBoy's car after LPG conversion that turned out to be a bad lifter or two. Similar scenario. Started it after unrelated work to hear a nasty tapping noise. Kept starting it and stopping it while checking things, not wanting to run it too long. Convinced it was misfiring some of the time and sometimes not.
These cars do tend to flood if you keep starting them from cold, due to the rich mixture when starting cold, and that might explain the misfire. Couple of wet plugs perhaps?
The main problem is that it's notoriously difficult to diagnose an engine noise even if you're standing over the engine, unless you've heard exactly the same fault before, and impossible to do remotely.
Worth a compression test and then take off the cam covers and check each lifter is solid with minimal clearance to the cam circle, and can't be compressed by pushing down on it?
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Yep, fair point pal. I guess I was hoping for something a little more obvious, and without having to undo the binding or cabling, which will be never be the same again. I only had a quick look before heading to work, which is why I posted, for the further guidance. A stretched cable would be hard to find amongst all that though! Now the cover is off I'll have a closer inspection, and probably replace my original coil pack while I'm there.
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Thanks Kevin. Compression test still outstanding. I take it that the engine must be complete to carry it out, minus the plugs of course?
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Another thing to ponder.. If you've got a misfire and a knocking noise there are two possible scenarios, in my view:
1) Misfire caused by ignition or (silent) mechanical failure. Bore gets wetted with unburnt fuel and piston slaps, giving a knocking sound.
2) Mechanical failure such as knackered valve, completely deflated lifter, etc causes the knocking noise and is serious enough to cause a misfire too.
In scenario 1, if you squirt a little oil down each bore, turn the engine over with the plugs out, then restart, it'll probably run without the noise for a few seconds. In scenario 2, no amount of oil will help.
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Thanks Kevin. Compression test still outstanding. I take it that the engine must be complete to carry it out, minus the plugs of course?
Nope. Just disable the fuel system by removing the two purple relays to the rear of the engine bay fuse box. Can do it with the plenum and manifold off as you need the throttle open anyway. (check nothing is going to get drawn into the intakes, of course, and remove any bits of rag you might have placed there)
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Thanks Kevin. Compression test still outstanding. I take it that the engine must be complete to carry it out, minus the plugs of course?
Nope. Just disable the fuel system by removing the two purple relays to the rear of the engine bay fuse box. Can do it with the plenum and manifold off as you need the throttle open anyway. (check nothing is going to get drawn into the intakes, of course, and remove any bits of rag you might have placed there)
Excellent, thank you. That saves building it back up again first, and the lack of access to nearside coil pack.
In relation to your previous post, are you talking about a drop of oil into the plug well? Sorry for being daft!
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Thanks Kevin. Compression test still outstanding. I take it that the engine must be complete to carry it out, minus the plugs of course?
Nope. Just disable the fuel system by removing the two purple relays to the rear of the engine bay fuse box. Can do it with the plenum and manifold off as you need the throttle open anyway. (check nothing is going to get drawn into the intakes, of course, and remove any bits of rag you might have placed there)
Excellent, thank you. That saves building it back up again first, and the lack of access to nearside coil pack.
In relation to your previous post, are you talking about a drop of oil into the plug well? Sorry for being daft!
Yep. Well, a squirt from an oil can. Worth a try. Might give you some valuable information.
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Cheers pal. Something else to try :y
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Cheers pal. Something else to try :y
Jonny i think you should change this post title to "Oh what have i not done" :( Seriously hope you can find what is the problem . Fingers crossed ;)
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Cheers pal. Something else to try :y
Jonny i think you should change this post title to "Oh what have i not done" :( Seriously hope you can find what is the problem . Fingers crossed ;)
;D :D :y
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Jonny, there is an easy way to prove if there is a mechanical issue causing a misfire mate.
The only possible mechanical issue that could cause a misfire, would be if compression was lost somehow, EG damaged valve, camshaft, or similar.
Compresion test it!! :) :y
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Jonny....I have been following this thread with interest. Cannot offer advice as I am not a mechanic. :(
However, I, and I am sure, hundreds of other members are just waiting with baited breath and willing for the ....'Yes Yes Yes' post to say you have fixed it.
With all my heart mate..I hope you get sorted soon :y :y :y :y
Tony
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Jonny....I have been following this thread with interest. Cannot offer advice as I am not a mechanic. :(
However, I, and I am sure, hundreds of other members are just waiting with baited breath and willing for the ....'Yes Yes Yes' post to say you have fixed it.
With all my heart mate..I hope you get sorted soon :y :y :y :y
Tony
+1 , always checking in to see if he has found the problem :y
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I know it's been touched on before, but I'm going to play devils advocate. This is mainly because of my ignorance, and lack of understanding, and is not intended to offend or make me appear ungrateful. That is certainly not the case. But I'm at work and the cars not, and I'm pondering .....
So, the source of the problem is believed to be a misfire, the cause of which I'm searching for. Atm all roads are pointing to electrical breakdown somewhere, and the understanding that the subsequent racket is brought about by the misfire. Is it possible that its the other way round? That the rattle is mechanical and causing the misfire? Whilst I appreciate codes aren't apparent in every situation, should they be showing in this one?
For example, we mentioned oil and lifters. Is it conceivable that if there was a problem with dry lifters that they could cause the noise, and any subsequent misfire?
With any luck I'll open the cable tray tomorrow and 'bingo'!! But if not, I'm just thinking of the next path to take. Just a thought, because really I don't know what I'm talking about :-X :D
I would try a compression test to rule out mechanical issues, personally.
We had an issue with TheBoy's car after LPG conversion that turned out to be a bad lifter or two. Similar scenario. Started it after unrelated work to hear a nasty tapping noise. Kept starting it and stopping it while checking things, not wanting to run it too long. Convinced it was misfiring some of the time and sometimes not.
These cars do tend to flood if you keep starting them from cold, due to the rich mixture when starting cold, and that might explain the misfire. Couple of wet plugs perhaps?
The main problem is that it's notoriously difficult to diagnose an engine noise even if you're standing over the engine, unless you've heard exactly the same fault before, and impossible to do remotely.
Worth a compression test and then take off the cam covers and check each lifter is solid with minimal clearance to the cam circle, and can't be compressed by pushing down on it?
I have lost track of whether this engine has had a proper run since the work was done or whether it has had repeated cold starts :-\
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not read all the posts but I worked for the V6 plant for years working on warranty and durability issues - as you replaced the thermostat i would say the following ( FROM EXPERIENCE):
there is a gap on the rear timing cover adjacent to the thermostat housing - this gap is large enough for debris to enter - we used to get ty-wrap cut offs enter this gap drop into the cam belt which used to act as another tooth on the bottom pulley - this would knock the valve timing out by a couple of teeth and the engine would sound like a tractor / diesel engine!
all that was needed to repair it was to reset the valve timing by refitting the timing belt and if the engine was not run tooo much 99% of the time no damage was done and the engine was ok
so i would remove the timing cover and check the valve timing - often the bit of debris would jump out so it took us a while to find this problem but it is very common
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not read all the posts but I worked for the V6 plant for years working on warranty and durability issues - as you replaced the thermostat i would say the following ( FROM EXPERIENCE):
there is a gap on the rear timing cover adjacent to the thermostat housing - this gap is large enough for debris to enter - we used to get ty-wrap cut offs enter this gap drop into the cam belt which used to act as another tooth on the bottom pulley - this would knock the valve timing out by a couple of teeth and the engine would sound like a tractor / diesel engine!
all that was needed to repair it was to reset the valve timing by refitting the timing belt and if the engine was not run tooo much 99% of the time no damage was done and the engine was ok
so i would remove the timing cover and check the valve timing - often the bit of debris would jump out so it took us a while to find this problem but it is very common
Worth a look mate ;)
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Thanks guys for the recent input, and good wishes :y
Re the debris issue - I believed I had dropped a washer through this very gap, basically the back plate of the top tensioner. I checked within the cam cover and round the bottom pulley but found nothing. I checked the timing initially at the cams, without locking the crank, and unaware at that time of the timing mark on the pulley for tdc. I did not remove or change the belt though. This was my initial thought, though I did doubt that a washer could make this racket.
The car has maybe driven a mile or two since this happened, but no long runs. A mates mate was going to have a look at it for me on Monday which means me taking it to work for collection, around 16 miles.
I don't know whether to drive it or not now? Perhaps I should borrow a locking kit and check the timing properly before driving it. There are some photos earlier where I simply turned the crank to bring the cam marks to the notches on the casing, but as said, no tdc. 'Ralf' the project car had a similar noise but I kinda ruled out the timing at that point :-\
Running round in circles now, and had arranged for the compression test to be done as that remains outstanding.
Timing issue also needs to be resolved I suppose, so I'll try and organise a locking kit to do it properly. There were no problems before I changed the stat and gaskets :'(
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A washer dropping into cam belt area wouldn't make a noise but could as already said cause the timing belt to ride a couple of teeth,if you can locate a locking kit easily its gotta be worth checking especially as the stat is the only thing you've done and it was ok beforehand :y
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There is a pointer cast onto the front of the oil pump that points to a groove on the auxiliary belt pulley at approx 2 O'Clock.
A bit fiddly but certainly accurate enough to set the crank to TDC to allow you to check the cam timing.
(the only thing to beware is if the pulley has been fitted correctly, with 6 bolts and no locating dowel it might not be)
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There is a pointer cast onto the front of the oil pump that points to a groove on the auxiliary belt pulley at approx 2 O'Clock.
A bit fiddly but certainly accurate enough to set the crank to TDC to allow you to check the cam timing.
(the only thing to beware is if the pulley has been fitted correctly, with 6 bolts and no locating dowel it might not be)
Crank Pulley only fits one way mate - otherwise bolts do not line up ;)
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You dont need the locking kit to check the timing mate, there is a timing mark on the front pulley (torsion damper) which lines up with the mark on the plastic timing cover around 1oclock position - as i stated the debris drops into the belt around the bottom crank pulley and act as another tooth to the bottom pulley this causes all 4 cams to go out to upto 2 teeth so they will still be in snych with each other but out with the crank.
if you can not find the TDC marker you can remove No 1 spark plug (front plug drivers side) insert a long srewdriver and gently bar the engine over till the screwdriver is at its highest point then check the cam gear position.
I would do this check before driving 16 miles as if it is out (if it is it will sound like a deisel engine) you will bend the valves!!!
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just listened to the video of the noise and that is the noise you get when your timing is out by 2 teeth so you need to check it out as your crank is out with the cams it will through up misfire codes - 1&4 are on the reference point (large gap in the transmitter disk) even the knock sensor codes could be due to the mechanical noise as its in the same range so check your valve timing asap
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just listened to the video of the noise and that is the noise you get when your timing is out by 2 teeth so you need to check it out as your crank is out with the cams it will through up misfire codes - 1&4 are on the reference point (large gap in the transmitter disk) even the knock sensor codes could be due to the mechanical noise as its in the same range so check your valve timing asap
Thank you very much pal for these posts, and your timing was spot on ;D
If you hadn't posted when you did, I'd have been driving the car tomorrow. I'm going to try and get away early tomorrow and have another look. Thanks for the advice re checking too, though if I have to remove the belt, I'd rather the cams were locked.
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Yeah u need the kit to change the belt but not to check it
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No need to remove the belt but you do need to remove the cover so you can see the cam sprockets.
If the timing is out then you DO need to lock the cams before trying to re-align the belt.
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Well if it is out, then it'll need to be removed and realigned.
Just looking at worse case scenario.
PS like the sig :y
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There is a pointer cast onto the front of the oil pump that points to a groove on the auxiliary belt pulley at approx 2 O'Clock.
A bit fiddly but certainly accurate enough to set the crank to TDC to allow you to check the cam timing.
(the only thing to beware is if the pulley has been fitted correctly, with 6 bolts and no locating dowel it might not be)
Crank Pulley only fits one way mate - otherwise bolts do not line up ;)
I did wonder about that ;)
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Well, managed to get stripped down to the cambelt, but working in the dark wasn't much fun!
Couldn't see the marks to line up the crank though, so I'll leave it until tomorrow, and hopefully some daylight ;D
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Right guys. Took some time off work this morning and its nice and dry. Hurray!!
Anyway. Have found the pointer on the crank pulley and can therefore line it up with the pointer on the oil pump housing (?).
Two questions - can the crank pulley definitely only be fitted one way? And if the pointer is lined up, should the cam sprocket markings also be lined up with the timing case notches?
Cheers
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Right guys. Took some time off work this morning and its nice and dry. Hurray!!
Anyway. Have found the pointer on the crank pulley and can therefore line it up with the pointer on the oil pump housing (?).
Two questions - can the crank pulley definitely only be fitted one way? And if the pointer is lined up, should the cam sprocket markings also be lined up with the timing case notches?
Cheers
Crank pulley can only be fitted one way if all 6 bolts are used....
Cam markings should align with rear cover markings, be aware that there are two markings on each pulley so the numebr need to be 1-4 from left to right.
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Cheers Mark. In that case, the cams are all virtually lined up, but the crank pointer is NOT in line with the marker. It's about an inch or so short. If I bring it to the mark, the cams will all be forward of the timing case notches.
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Cheers Mark. In that case, the cams are all virtually lined up, but the crank pointer is NOT in line with the marker. It's about an inch or so short. If I bring it to the mark, the cams will all be forward of the timing case notches.
Timing sounds out across the board .. would explain the 'orrible noises IMHO . :(
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That's what I'm thinking. Am I right in thinking that they should all be lined up, cams AND crank? Surely they'd have to be :-\
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There's some pictures and discussion in this thread from the old site ... not perfect but might just help .. pictures are at post #9 and show the timing kit in use .. but the marks will give you an idea of what it should be like .. hopefully !
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1234975336
HTH
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Cheers for that :y
I guess the timing is well off then. In order to correct it, I'll have to remove the belt. If I lock the crank with the tool (when I get the kit), can I just adjust the cams to line up their markings, then drop in the locks? Or will I need to remove the cams and replace them in the correct position?
Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree ........ :-X
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If it was me and dependent on how long it is untilt he lcoking kit arrives, I would wedge the cams with something soft, slacken the tensioner to give some slack in the belt and reset the crank timing. re-tension and give it a run to see if it makes any difference.
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Mmmm. So I could 'lock' the cams and loosen the belt sufficiently to turn the crank, rather than the other way round?
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Yes.
Do check the belt for missing tooths to and that foreign object
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Yep.Sounds like the foriegn object has gone down the inside of the belt between the belt and crank,allowing the belt to move round a couple of teeth on the crank.Your very lucky it wasnt enough to bend 24 valves imo. I would imagine you will also need to carefully inspect the belt in case the washer or whatever it was has either partially sliced it or damaged some teeth.
It does sound like youve at long last got to the cause though,which is very good news indeed.
Is the cambelt kit anywhere near the end of its life John ? Unless its pretty new it might be worth just changing the belt and rollers while you have the kit,and to save you worrying about damage to the belt.
Im a very slow typist. ;D
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Yes things might be looking up, but I don't want to get carried away ...... :-X
Belt would need changed tbh but not sure I can manage it just at the minute. Must check BuyPartsBy for prices.
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At this stage, it would be an idea to confirm this is the issue :y
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At this stage, it would be an idea to confirm this is the issue :y
Must admit I agree with MDTM ... retime it using existing belt and adjusters ... and see if that solves the problem .. if it does then think about changing the belt etc .. if it DOESN'T .. then you have deeper problems and a rethink may be needed. We still don't know - FOR SURE - that the mistiming has not caused valve damage .... if its all nice and quiet after the timing is sorted ... all well and good IMHO ....
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You're right of course. Knew I was getting carried away :D
We'll try that first :y
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As well as inspecting the belt teeth check the sprockets or whatever their called for bent, broken teeth
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Yep, I'd be checking for obvious belt damage before a run to check engine appears in good order. If that shows it's survived, I'd have the belt off again for a very thorough inspection. Might even be worth putting a new one on as a matter of course, as it has chewed up a foreign object.
No need for a new belt for a quick test, though. :y
A compression check might be worthwhile if it then runs OK, just to confirm there are no bent valves.
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Check this out ........
http://s877.beta.photobucket.com/user/jonnyi2112/media/8CC4429F-BE48-4CDA-A5A9-22A3D3FCDBD8-1113-00000112872FD4ED.mp4.html
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So... Problem solved then? :y :y :y :y
Well... Sort of. I'm guessing you still need to actually replace the belt and tensioners ??? ???
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So... Problem solved then? :y :y :y :y
Well... Sort of. I'm guessing you still need to actually replace the belt and tensioners ??? ???
Sounds much better doesn't it? I'm sooooooooooooo pleased!! :) :)
Need to take it for a quick run to see how it drives though, and yes I'll need to replace the kit.
Massive thanks to everyone for their patience, good wishes, advice, input and general camaraderie along the way.
That's what makes OOF so special, especially to a novice (numpty) like me ;)
I'm not saying it's over, but it's certainly improved :y
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Hurah ! An advancement for you after so long :)
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How does it sound when you give it a bit of a rev John ?
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How does it sound when you give it a bit of a rev John ?
Don't know yet .......... too scared :-X
What are you thinking?
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Nice one ... at least we know it runs well with no nasty noises.. looks like you might have gotten away without valve damage :y :y :y
As said, for safety sake .. full belt change now :) :)
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Sounds like a lucky escape :y
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Sounds like a lucky escape :y
+1 jammy bugger :D ;D ;D
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Sounds like a lucky escape :y
+1 jammy bugger :D ;D ;D
Sounds like a lucky escape :y
:-X :-X ::)
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How does it sound when you give it a bit of a rev John ?
Don't know yet .......... too scared :-X
What are you thinking?
It doesnt sound smooth as silk,but they often dont when ticking over.Especially if the engine is cold. Ime its easier to tell if its running sweet if you give it some revs.Not redline it,but up to maybe 2 thousand rpm. :-\
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Glad you seem sorted wish you had checked the cambelt timing like originally advised :y
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Glad you seem sorted wish you had checked the cambelt timing like originally advised :y
Fair point Daz, and no one regrets it more than me. If you think I enjoyed being without a car for so long you are much mistaken :D I'm fed up scrounging lifts, having to borrow a car on occasion, and using awkward public transport.
Tbh I thought I had checked it, but my ignorance and lack of understanding meant that I only checked half of it. I didn't know how it worked and therefore didn't realise what I was really looking for. There were so many other variables too ........
In the end, I'm glad it's at least partly resolved, and hindsight is a wonderful thing ;)
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How does it sound when you give it a bit of a rev John ?
Don't know yet .......... too scared :-X
What are you thinking?
It doesnt sound smooth as silk,but they often dont when ticking over.Especially if the engine is cold. Ime its easier to tell if its running sweet if you give it some revs.Not redline it,but up to maybe 2 thousand rpm. :-\
I'm hoping to give it a quick run tonight, and see how it goes. It'll be interesting!
I guess too the timing isn't perfectly set, as no kit was used. When the belts replaced it might be a little better, though I think it sounds ok.
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Well after a quick run round the block, all seems well? If that's actually the case, then I'm a jammy bugger indeed :D
The stat seems to be working ok too, as the car was warm after only five minutes or so. Bonus :y
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Superb mate.Sorted at long last. :y
If your confident all is well,it would be worth changing the belt & tensioners,and making sure the timing is absolutely perfect.
Well done. :y
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Fantastic news :y :y :y :y
How on earth did the timing slip though? :-\
Bet you are chuffed now though :)
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Superb mate.Sorted at long last. :y
If your confident all is well,it would be worth changing the belt & tensioners,and making sure the timing is absolutely perfect.
Well done. :y
Cheers Albs, but I can't really take any of the credit - it was all OOF :y
The only thing is that I now know a lot more than I did before - hopefully that's a good thing :D
Fantastic news :y :y :y :y
How on earth did the timing slip though? :-\
Bet you are chuffed now though :)
Thanks Mark, and it must have been that stupid washer >:(
Can't believe it, but well chuffed now ;)
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I wonder where it is now? Hiding inside the aux belt pulley perhaps :-\
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well i thought you were gonne beat "so what have you done to your car today" ;D ;D
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I wonder where it is now? Hiding inside the aux belt pulley perhaps :-\
That a good point, full strip down maybe in order, make sure it's not going to cause a problem again.
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I did something not that dissimilar with a foreign object and a cambelt a long time ago. I lost the oil pressure on my Chevette HS and being young and gung ho,I dived in and completely stripped the engine and then commenced on a full rebuild,which ended up taking severl months,mostly due to VX dealer constantly ordering in the wrong parts,and partly due to the fact I had never rebuilt an engine in my life.
Eventually,just before Christmas I got it all back together and running nicely,apart from a not too serious leak from the rad.
Swmbo was eager to get taken to a supermarket 10 miles away to do Christmas shopping,so of we went. On the way back the engine started to get pretty hot,so worried about the very expensive alloy head (over £1000 30 years ago !) I pulled into a layby to let it cool down a bit and then add coolant.
I got a bit impatient and decided to take the rad cap off to help it cool down quicker.The cap shot up,hit the underside of the bonnet and came back down and jammed between the cam pulleys,instanly slicing through the brand new cambelt.
I left the car where it was all over Christmas,which wasnt the happiest,due to self disgust and also worry about the car.
Towed it back home and took the head off again.Two new inlet valves and a new cambelt required,and all was well. ::)
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well i thought you were gonne beat "so what have you done to your car today" ;D ;D
Me too :-[I wonder where it is now? Hiding inside the aux belt pulley perhaps :-\
There was one found apparently on my drive. I wasn't aware at the time, but ultimately I didn't fully realise how it could cause any problems. If you remember, I initially looked for it as I thought it may be stuck somewhere, thereby causing the rattle. Not for a second did I think about the belt slipping as a result, and not having been at the timing during the work undertaken, I didn't appreciate the significance :(
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I was spot on then, have seen this problem loads of times even snapped up the odd bargain on ebay with same fault, all depends on how long / hard the engine.has run in this condition whether or not damage occurs, glad u got it sorted
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I was spot on then, have seen this problem loads of times even snapped up the odd bargain on ebay with same fault, all depends on how long / hard the engine.has run in this condition whether or not damage occurs, glad u got it sorted
Yes mate, thanks very much :y
I should have spotted it sooner, but hey ho ::)
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What a saga - glad you're sorted now mate. Full marks to v6man54deg :y :y
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What a saga - glad you're sorted now mate. Full marks to v6man54deg :y :y
:y
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Can we all stop looking for your post on this subject it was the first thing I looked at evertime I switched on and I am sure a lot of others did the same. So glad you got there in the end and I am sure that the support you got from OOF helped you to press on and get a good conclussion. :y