Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: tunnie on 06 December 2012, 10:22:54
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So MrsT just called to inform me the boilers not working >:(
Fault lights indicate:
Lack of burner ignition (no
ignition signal from the full
seqence ignition device)
So am I right in thinking Spark plug? Or is more complicated than that ::)
Anyone recommend someone in West London? :y
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Not very conclusive, do you know the boiler make/model?
No spark plug as such, its much more likely to be something else in reality.
If its a condensing boiler then we all know the common fault (hopefuly) given the weather and the general low quality installs but many of the experts.
The fault hints that the request for boiler ignition has not been reached from the sequencing device.
The basic sequence of events is;
Stat demands heat
Motorised valve moves to the correct position
Motorised valve calls for boiler to fire
Boiler starts fan
Once flue pressure differential is confirmed via pressure switch (e.g. fan running and no significant air leaks) then gas is turned on.
Ignition signal sent to ignite gas.
If gas ignition is succesful then keep gas valve open, if not then shut off gas (some repeat a few times before reporting a fault)
There are a few other interlocks on some setups e.g. condensing units where there are condensate level sensors which will also stop the boiler firing. Its often these that cause issues this time of year because way to many gas fitters dont follow (or choose to ignore - delete as appropriate) the building regs when installing condensate drains so they freeze up!
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Its a Biasi Combi boiler (M96.24SM/C), just sparks up on demand when hot water is requested. Works well in a 1 bed flat really, had no issues until now.
Can it do this because of low pressure? I think its at 0.6 bar now, the book says it should be around 1.1 bar.
Just called a few "Plumbers" first 5 never answered phone ::)
Next one wanted £95+vat an hour, next £120+vat :o :o :o Parts on top of course! :o :o :o
Fluck that, I'll put myself through a course for that kind of money. >:(
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Oh and many thanks for the information above, most of it goes way over my head :-[ :-[ :-[
But understand the basic flow :y
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If pressure is low then it also wont fire. :y
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If pressure is low then it also wont fire. :y
Ah, I'll look at it when I get back then. Recall there is a valve underneath which will allow more water to flow into the boiler, which I have done once, possible as its been used a lot recently its just boiled off some of its water?
Hopefully thats the cause, as I can't get anyone for less than £100 an hour :o >:(
As always many, many thanks Mark :y
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If pressure is low then it also wont fire. :y
Ah, I'll look at it when I get back then. Recall there is a valve underneath which will allow more water to flow into the boiler, which I have done once, possible as its been used a lot recently its just boiled off some of its water?
Hopefully thats the cause, as I can't get anyone for less than £100 an hour :o >:(
As always many, many thanks Mark :y
The water in the system does not boil off. If it's starting to need regular water top-ups to maintain the 1.1 bar pressure, you must have a leak somewhere. :y
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SOMETIMES, on a combi,when its very cold the external vent pipe can freeze and that will stop it dead.
Is your external pipe well lagged (nothing personal) it only takes a slight frozen blockage on a bend etc to cause a problem. :)
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SOMETIMES, on a condensing,when its very cold the external vent pipe can freeze and that will stop it dead.
Is your external pipe well lagged (nothing personal) it only takes a slight frozen blockage on a bend etc to cause a problem. :)
Not just restricted to combi's :y
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If pressure is low then it also wont fire. :y
Ah, I'll look at it when I get back then. Recall there is a valve underneath which will allow more water to flow into the boiler, which I have done once, possible as its been used a lot recently its just boiled off some of its water?
Hopefully thats the cause, as I can't get anyone for less than £100 an hour :o >:(
As always many, many thanks Mark :y
The water in the system does not boil off. If it's starting to need regular water top-ups to maintain the 1.1 bar pressure, you must have a leak somewhere. :y
Nothing I can see, did bleed rads a while ago but that as minimal loss.
It was around 8/9 months ago I last "topped" it up, just had a picture from her, looks like its well down on pressure:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/803897/Misc/Photo%2006-12-2012%2011%2008%2000.jpg)
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SOMETIMES, on a combi,when its very cold the external vent pipe can freeze and that will stop it dead.
Is your external pipe well lagged (nothing personal) it only takes a slight frozen blockage on a bend etc to cause a problem. :)
I'm on the 5th floor, guessing no way to easily check this? :-\
It was ferking cold this morning!
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Indeed, the pressure drops for a reason and there can be a few causes.
Thing to do is top the pressure up and keep a close eye on it, if it drops again and there are no obvious leaks it may be over-pressuring and venting by the relief valve, this is can be a sign that the expansion vessel has an issue.
Note that the expansion vessel should be checked every year to ensure the correct air pressure is present (likely to be 1bar) but this has to be done with the pressure on the water side released.
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That pressure is to low.
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Indeed, the pressure drops for a reason and there can be a few causes.
Thing to do is top the pressure up and keep a close eye on it, if it drops again and there are no obvious leaks it may be over-pressuring and venting by the relief valve, this is can be a sign that the expansion vessel has an issue.
Note that the expansion vessel should be checked every year to ensure the correct air pressure is present (likely to be 1bar) but this has to be done with the pressure on the water side released.
I need that to be done then, as I've not had any work done on it.
That pressure is to low.
First thing I'm doing when I get back is letting more water in :) :y
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The expansion vessel is dead easy to top up, it simply has a car type schreider valve on it and you add air the same way you inflate a tyre. :y
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The expansion vessel is dead easy to top up, it simply has a car type schreider valve on it and you add air the same way you inflate a tyre. :y
Thanks again :y
I guess its like car DIY work, once you know, you can save so much money!
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You can, boilers and heating systems are pretty simple, nothing complex about them.
Plus you can then guarantee the quality of work done to.
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Tunnie, google for an installation manual for the boiler and read it cover to cover. It will explain how the whole thing works in simple terms (a cowboy gas technician has to be able to get it working based on this after all) ;) and you'll then be able to figure out what in the ignition sequence is not working.
Start by topping up the pressure, though, bearing in mind that doing so might be curing the symptom not the fault.
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You can, boilers and heating systems are pretty simple, nothing complex about them.
Plus you can then guarantee the quality of work done to.
Absolutely.
Plus given prices I was quoted, you could send yourself on a course easily.
As i think the nervous part is first time having a go, seriously thinking of a basic course so I can get hands on and have a go
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Tunnie, google for an installation manual for the boiler and read it cover to cover. It will explain how the whole thing works in simple terms (a cowboy gas technician has to be able to get it working based on this after all) ;) and you'll then be able to figure out what in the ignition sequence is not working.
Start by topping up the pressure, though, bearing in mind that doing so might be curing the symptom not the fault.
Yes I've got it here, printing it work so I can have a good read later :y
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That pressure is to low.
Definately. And will stop it firing. If you bled rads and lost water, even a relatively small amount, that could have been enough. Top it up, but not to to full stipulated pressure until heating it is warm. The warming of the water will give a little more pressure, so may end up exceeding the 1.1 bar
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How much the pressure rises, assuming that a top up gets it firing again, is your clue to the nature of the fault, by the way.
Top it up to 1 BAR and then fire up the central heating at maximum temperature (I suspect mrs. T will mandate this step anyway ;-) ). Depending on the system, the pressure will rise a little, maybe to 1.5 BAR, as the expansion vessel takes up the increase in the volume of the water. If it increases more than this, and certainly if it gets anywhere 3 BAR where the vent valve will likely operate, there is a problem with your expansion vessel (it either needs pumping up or it has failed).
If the above step looks OK, but the pressure drops and the problem occurs again, you probably have a leak. The pressure relief valve would be the first place to look here. It might be opening early. If it's not that, then the hunt begins in earnest. ;)
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Right, firstly huge, HUGE thanks to MarksDTM & Mr Wood, as ever their technical input in anything is second to none. :D :-* :-* :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Long story short, heating is working, hot water is running. So MrsT will be happy when she returns :y
As the image showed earlier in the thread, pressure was around 0.6 bar, I've opened the valve to let the pressure rise to around 1.2 bar. After closing the valve it dropped a bit again, so opened and shut it quite quickly, waited until it settled on 1.2 bar (cold)
With heating running for 5/10 mins or so at 50%, its running at around 1.4 bar, so rose around 0.2
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/803897/Misc/Photo%2006-12-2012%2017%2039%2049.jpg)
I've now turned up the heating to Max, will see what it does :y
I'm also going to do as MarksDTM suggested and monitor it closely over next few weeks :)
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Well done guys for helping tunnie fix his boiler :y
I sometimes read these threads and do wonder if im doing the right thing by planning on swapping out my 30yo boiler for a condensing combi. :-\
These modern boilers all seem to have problems......where as my 30yo one, it has a thermostat, a gas valve and a heater exchanger/burner, and that is it! Not a lot to go wrong.....in fact in the 15years or so i have lived here, I have changed the separate timer and separate pump .... and thats been the total of the whole system going wrong.
I probably will tho......as im also looking at ripping out all the rads for energy efficient ones as well.....
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Glad its working Tunnie.
Boilers really are quite simple things at the end of the day, as DTM and KW say, so normally easy to logically think why its not working. Some Installation/Service manuals have flowcharts so that even Corgi/Gassafe technicians can follow it.
Fault codes and flash codes are a bit like Tech2 and similar - they hint at what it thinks is wrong, which may not be the real cause.
Keep a close eye on the pressure over the coming weeks, in case there is a small, as yet undetected, leak, or if the expansion chamber is fubar... ...and resolve any issues before it becomes a bigger problem. Esp if it means Mrs Tunnie has a cold shower - I can imagine her suffering a sense of humour failure under such conditions in this weather ;D
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Well done guys for helping tunnie fix his boiler :y
I sometimes read these threads and do wonder if im doing the right thing by planning on swapping out my 30yo boiler for a condensing combi. :-\
These modern boilers all seem to have problems......where as my 30yo one, it has a thermostat, a gas valve and a heater exchanger/burner, and that is it! Not a lot to go wrong.....in fact in the 15years or so i have lived here, I have changed the separate timer and separate pump .... and thats been the total of the whole system going wrong.
I probably will tho......as im also looking at ripping out all the rads for energy efficient ones as well.....
Biggest problem with condesnsing ones is poor fitting, allowing the drain to freeze/block.
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Just read through this , great that tunnie's heating is working thanks to you chaps 8) I always thought heating systems were a complicated system to work on , not it seems .
I was quoted similar call out prices as yourself tunnie but managed to sort it for £2.99 thanks to the guidance of martin42 on here :y
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Just read through this , great that tunnie's heating is working thanks to you chaps 8) I always thought heating systems were a complicated system to work on , not it seems .
I was quoted similar call out prices as yourself tunnie but managed to sort it for £2.99 thanks to the guidance of martin42 on here :y
I have a Potterton, so its always going wrong. Some of the fixes have been expensive (gas valve was £90 a few years back IIRC, but I needed it in a hurry (ie, from a plumbers merchant)), most have been virtually free (Suprimas suffer with poor build quality on the ECU).
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Right, firstly huge, HUGE thanks to MarksDTM & Mr Wood, as ever their technical input in anything is second to none. :D :-* :-* :-* :-* :y :y :y :y
Long story short, heating is working, hot water is running. So MrsT will be happy when she returns :y
As the image showed earlier in the thread, pressure was around 0.6 bar, I've opened the valve to let the pressure rise to around 1.2 bar. After closing the valve it dropped a bit again, so opened and shut it quite quickly, waited until it settled on 1.2 bar (cold)
With heating running for 5/10 mins or so at 50%, its running at around 1.4 bar, so rose around 0.2
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/803897/Misc/Photo%2006-12-2012%2017%2039%2049.jpg)
I've now turned up the heating to Max, will see what it does :y
I'm also going to do as MarksDTM suggested and monitor it closely over next few weeks :)
Sounds to me like divertor valve stuck in Hot water position. Tunr on a tap then hold on to flow pipe, big 22mm pipe on left if it gets hot the divertor has had it
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Not very conclusive, do you know the boiler make/model?
No spark plug as such, its much more likely to be something else in reality.
If its a condensing boiler then we all know the common fault (hopefuly) given the weather and the general low quality installs but many of the experts.
The fault hints that the request for boiler ignition has not been reached from the sequencing device.
The basic sequence of events is;
Stat demands heat
Motorised valve moves to the correct position
Motorised valve calls for boiler to fire
Boiler starts fan
Once flue pressure differential is confirmed via pressure switch (e.g. fan running and no significant air leaks) then gas is turned on.
Ignition signal sent to ignite gas.
If gas ignition is succesful then keep gas valve open, if not then shut off gas (some repeat a few times before reporting a fault)
There are a few other interlocks on some setups e.g. condensing units where there are condensate level sensors which will also stop the boiler firing. Its often these that cause issues this time of year because way to many gas fitters dont follow (or choose to ignore - delete as appropriate) the building regs when installing condensate drains so they freeze up!
A little more information........
Electronic ignition boilers have something a bit like a spark plug that has three electrodes. One for the spark, a common earth electrode and the other (the ionisation probe) that sits in the flame to detect that combustion is taking place.
The ionisation probe is red hot most of the time and it needs to be a set distance from the earth electrode. There is usually a little window that allows the electrodes to be seen.
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Tunnie you say your on the 5th floor. Where does your pressure relief valve vent to? Does it go straight through the wall? Can you see it out of a window? If you can, keep an eye on it to see if it's dripping... ;) Might be that the spring has got weak in the pressure relief valve... :-\
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Sounds familiar. Any popping or banging from the boiler, any bubbling in the pipes?
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I sometimes read these threads and do wonder if im doing the right thing by planning on swapping out my 30yo boiler for a condensing combi. :-\
When I bought my flat, it was my first experience of a combi boiler. I really do like way it works, hot water on demand, no need to turn on water heater or spark it up 30 mins before you want water. Or having it on a timer, then getting up earlier one day and getting no water, its just always there.
Keep a close eye on the pressure over the coming weeks, in case there is a small, as yet undetected, leak, or if the expansion chamber is fubar... ...and resolve any issues before it becomes a bigger problem. Esp if it means Mrs Tunnie has a cold shower - I can imagine her suffering a sense of humour failure under such conditions in this weather ;D
Yup, going to keep a close eye on it :y
Got some points though for fixing it :D
I was quoted similar call out prices as yourself tunnie
They were insane, strongly considering a course!
Tunnie you say your on the 5th floor. Where does your pressure relief valve vent to? Does it go straight through the wall? Can you see it out of a window? If you can, keep an eye on it to see if it's dripping... ;) Might be that the spring has got weak in the pressure relief valve... :-\
Yes I can see it out of the window, will keep an eye on it, did'nt think of that :y
Sounds familiar. Any popping or banging from the boiler, any bubbling in the pipes?
Not really, its fairly silent when its running :-\
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I've just been through all this with mine. Old boiler kettling. Fit new boiler, still kettling. Fit press pack(pressure vessel) in place of the water tank and stop cock. Gauge dropping, pressure lost, boiler makes a racket as there's no water in it then cuts out. No heat or water.
Reason for pressure loss, leaking heating pipes under the concrete floor. These had been leaking since the house was built. The pressure vessel just exaggerated the problem, and helped us find the leak effectively.
The 1.5 bar comes from mains water pressure on our system, and is topped up manually by allowing water pressure back in via a tap.
I have learned that a leak on hot water pipes is quite hard to find, as the hot pipes evaporate the leak away, and passing pumped water can pull air in.
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Should add, other possible is failed valve from pressure vessel to over flow. Keep an eye on the over flow from the boiler.
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How long did it take to loose pressure? I'm going to keep a close eye on it :y
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At its worsed, it was loosing all it's 1.5 bar in 24hours. We have fixed the worsed leak, but it's still loosing 0.3bar over 48hours.
Having said that, ours needs topping up 3 or 4 times a year anyway as part of normal use. I don't know if yours will top up automatically with water, or you have to do it manually and that's the only problem your seeing...?
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At its worsed, it was loosing all it's 1.5 bar in 24hours. We have fixed the worsed leak, but it's still loosing 0.3bar over 48hours.
Having said that, ours needs topping up 3 or 4 times a year anyway as part of normal use. I don't know if yours will top up automatically with water, or you have to do it manually and that's the only problem your seeing...?
I don't think it does, I just opened valve manually to let in water. Its been at least 6 months since it was last done, so hoping its just that.
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At its worsed, it was loosing all it's 1.5 bar in 24hours. We have fixed the worsed leak, but it's still loosing 0.3bar over 48hours.
Having said that, ours needs topping up 3 or 4 times a year anyway as part of normal use. I don't know if yours will top up automatically with water, or you have to do it manually and that's the only problem your seeing...?
I don't think it does, I just opened valve manually to let in water. Its been at least 6 months since it was last done, so hoping its just that.
sounds likely :y
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Water regs dont allow for auto fill as that would require a permanent mains cold water connection. :y
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
Yeah, agreed, combi's have a place. Well suited to single occupancy accomodation... ...as long as you remember not to get in shower when washing machine is on ;D
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Sounds familiar. Any popping or banging from the boiler, any bubbling in the pipes?
Gotta love a noisy old boiler!!! :)
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Sounds familiar. Any popping or banging from the boiler, any bubbling in the pipes?
Gotta love a noisy old boiler!!! :)
it tells you when it's working. :y
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
Yeah, agreed, combi's have a place. Well suited to single occupancy accomodation... ...as long as you remember not to get in shower when washing machine is on ;D
we can't have a combi, as the shower is pumped from a hot water tank to bath taps with shower attachment. Shower is epic. :y
...in fact, we can't leave the shower hose in the bath, as turning it on means a wild snake thrashing around and a thorough soaking. ;D
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
Yeah, agreed, combi's have a place. Well suited to single occupancy accomodation... ...as long as you remember not to get in shower when washing machine is on ;D
we can't have a combi, as the shower is pumped from a hot water tank to bath taps with shower attachment. Shower is epic. :y
...in fact, we can't leave the shower hose in the bath, as turning it on means a wild snake thrashing around and a thorough soaking. ;D
In my old house i had a 3 bar pump to feed the power shower......blimey that was a shower.....but you had to be quick in the shower....any more than 10mins and you standing in a cold shower ;D
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I think conventional boilers last longer than combis. A conventional boiler will start up once or twice a day for hot water, whereas a combi will start up many times during the day, every time hot water is required... If you think of it in Omega terms, the conventional boiler is the Omega that does an hour run up the motorway in the morning and an hour back in the evening. The combi boiler is the Omega that spends it's day in London traffic, start/stop, start/stop, start/stop.. ;)
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
Yeah, agreed, combi's have a place. Well suited to single occupancy accomodation... ...as long as you remember not to get in shower when washing machine is on ;D
we can't have a combi, as the shower is pumped from a hot water tank to bath taps with shower attachment. Shower is epic. :y
...in fact, we can't leave the shower hose in the bath, as turning it on means a wild snake thrashing around and a thorough soaking. ;D
I miss the shower I fitted in the old house, didn't need soap, it would cause you to shed a layer of skin ;D
As much as I liked it, even I decided it would be better to turn it down.
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
Yeah, agreed, combi's have a place. Well suited to single occupancy accomodation... ...as long as you remember not to get in shower when washing machine is on ;D
we can't have a combi, as the shower is pumped from a hot water tank to bath taps with shower attachment. Shower is epic. :y
...in fact, we can't leave the shower hose in the bath, as turning it on means a wild snake thrashing around and a thorough soaking. ;D
I miss the shower I fitted in the old house, didn't need soap, it would cause you to shed a layer of skin ;D
As much as I liked it, even I decided it would be better to turn it down.
GOOD LORD. TB accepts there is a setting other than on/off. ;D
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I think I'd rather eat my testicles than have a combi.
I have only ever seen one usablable combi for a 4 bedroom house, and that my bro's. Stands floor to ceiling, and is massive. But does allow 2 taps on at the same time.
I'd agree for a house, but a flat its fine :) :y
Yeah, agreed, combi's have a place. Well suited to single occupancy accomodation... ...as long as you remember not to get in shower when washing machine is on ;D
we can't have a combi, as the shower is pumped from a hot water tank to bath taps with shower attachment. Shower is epic. :y
...in fact, we can't leave the shower hose in the bath, as turning it on means a wild snake thrashing around and a thorough soaking. ;D
I miss the shower I fitted in the old house, didn't need soap, it would cause you to shed a layer of skin ;D
As much as I liked it, even I decided it would be better to turn it down.
GOOD LORD. TB accepts there is a setting other than on/off. ;D
Under duress ;D
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My experience of Combis over a 20 year period is as follows:
1) They don't seem to last long - first one lasted 7 years, next one lasted 10 years and we sold the house with the 3rd fitted. Reliability not brilliant - but skill of engineers not either. Cost of new boiler installed was viable when stacked against the ongoing repair costs.
2) No pressure probs with hot water as had incoming 22mm mains supply which then provided 15mm cold feed to all cold pipes and another 15mm feed to the combi for hot water.
3) Had to top up pressure on all three of them - some more than others. Gas engineers reckoned it was minute leakage in the motorised valve switching between hot water and heating. The heat within the boiler would then evaporate the weepage leaving no sign.
4) Had one spectacular failure though. You know that pause where you are ready to go out - stood there in your coat and waiting while she faffs about. I hear a loud crack and then the sound of water running and then spraying inside the boiler. A plastic bodied valve carrying mains water had split. Would have flooded the house had we left seconds before. No lasting damage and a fairly easy fix.
5) Have a conventional condensing boiler now and much happier.