Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: car5car on 27 December 2012, 12:35:27
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1. Rear timing belt (is it called cam belt in Europe?) cover in my 01 Cadillac Catera 3.0 has marks, so there is no reason (?) to use belt gauge to check position of cam sprockets.
2. Manual says to check timing belt tension. Why do I need to check belt tension, if tensioner has marks showing right tension?
3. How do hold cam sprockets w/o special tool?
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1. Rear timing belt (is it called cam belt in Europe?) cover in my 01 Cadillac Catera 3.0 has marks, so there is no reason (?) to use belt gauge to check position of cam sprockets.
You do have timing marks, but as you're able to alter the relative timing between each pair of cams & the timing between them & the crank, it's just a 'best guess' if you don't use a cam locking kit. ;) The lads that have done loads of cam belt changes have often found them to be a tooth or two out, presumably done without a cam lock kit
2. Manual says to check timing belt tension. Why do I need to check belt tension, if tensioner has marks showing right tension?
You don't ;)
3. How do hold cam sprockets w/o special tool?
With great difficulty ::) ;)
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On the 54 degree GM V6, it is absolutely essential to use the correct locking and timing kit. It is not possible to do without.
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Are rear cover marks made in wrong places? It seems like the only possible explanation for using cam gauge.
I used rope, wire and plastic ties to hold right (English driver side) head cam sprockets.
Left head (american driver side) cam sprockets are stable in right position
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On the 54 degree GM V6, it is absolutely essential to use the correct locking and timing kit. It is not possible to do without.
Which engines are you talking about? Omega/Catera engines are German engines. Cateras are manufactured in Germany and have VIN beginning with "W"
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If you have a V6 engine you do need the correct locking kit otherwise you won't be able to set timing correctly. Remember if you get it wrong engine damage will result (bent valves!)
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I don't agree with TheBoy personally. It IS "possible" to change the timing belt without the locking kit.
However, it absolutely is NOT possible to do it accurately.
You won't know this, as you don't have a locking kit. And can't possibly know how much easier and more accurate it is until you do have a locking kit.
When you get a locking kit, only then will you know. ;)
Trust us, get a locking kit. :y
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I don't agree with TheBoy personally. It IS "possible" to change the timing belt without the locking kit.
However, it absolutely is NOT possible to do it accurately.
You won't know this, as you don't have a locking kit. And can't possibly know how much easier and more accurate it is until you do have a locking kit.
When you get a locking kit, only then will you know. ;)
Trust us, get a locking kit. :y
Ps, did I mention... GET A LOCKING KIT. :)
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Changing without the correct locking kit is pot luck... A best guess ;)
At best, if the timing isn't spot on, it will be a little down on power and economy. Worst case, bent valves :o
It's worth the money for a locking kit IMHO... Even just a best case of the timing being out giving poor economy you could save almost as much as the cost of the locking kit over the 40k miles between changes ;)
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I don't agree with TheBoy personally. It IS "possible" to change the timing belt without the locking kit. ....
:o :o You're brave ....... I didn't think anyone was brave enough to say that out loud!
I actually agree with you ...... plenty of V6s have had their cam belts changed without a locking kit. ;) ;)
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... Worst case, bent valves :o
......
Considering the number of times that a fitted belt has been found to be a tooth or two out, I think you'd have to be really kack handed to fit a belt that far out that it'd bend valves.
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I don't agree with TheBoy personally. It IS "possible" to change the timing belt without the locking kit. ....
:o :o You're brave ....... I didn't think anyone was brave enough to say that out loud!
I actually agree with you ...... plenty of V6s have had their cam belts changed without a locking kit. ;) ;)
....Including the first time I did my 2.5cdx. In my pre forum days, because I didn't know any better.
It's quite difficult to do without the kit, hence the op's questions.
Then the next time your prepared, and wish to god you'd used a kit, as its SOOOOO much easier. And quicker. Not to mention, about a million times more accurate.
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I think everyone is taking TB's "not possible" way too literally .... of course it is "possible" to do the job without the kit .. it is even "possible" to get it 100% accurate without the kit... however ...
The chances of doing so, and the ease of doing the job are both greatly increased by using the correct tools.
It is probably "possible" to do most of the jobs on any car with 3 pairs of molegrips, 2 hammers and a power drill with assorted bits ..... but would you allow any one to do so ???
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1. Rear timing belt (is it called cam belt in Europe?) cover in my 01 Cadillac Catera 3.0 has marks, so there is no reason (?) to use belt gauge to check position of cam sprockets.
2. Manual says to check timing belt tension. Why do I need to check belt tension, if tensioner has marks showing right tension?
3. How do hold cam sprockets w/o special tool?
I would also add, that even if your belt had timing marks, they are fairly useless anyway, because each bank of cams are adjusted as a pair, via the eccentric adjusters on the corresponding idler. So the cam wheel marks can be on the belt marks, but the cam wheel timing can still be way off. Hence the gauge in the kit.
It's not a case of simply getting the teeth to line up, like on most cam belts. You have to adjust the cam timing on cams 3 and 4 (to within fractions of a millimetre) then once correct, only then can you do cams 1 and 2. Hence the )( shaped gauge to check it, a cam locks to stop the cams spinning out, and the crank lock to guarantee crank position.
Without the crank lock your pissing in the wind before you even start.
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I don't agree with TheBoy personally. It IS "possible" to change the timing belt without the locking kit. ....
:o :o You're brave ....... I didn't think anyone was brave enough to say that out loud!
I actually agree with you ...... plenty of V6s have had their cam belts changed without a locking kit. ;) ;)
....Including the first time I did my 2.5cdx. In my pre forum days, because I didn't know any better.
It's quite difficult to do without the kit, hence the op's questions.
Then the next time your prepared, and wish to god you'd used a kit, as its SOOOOO much easier. And quicker. Not to mention, about a million times more accurate.
I've had a kit each time I've done mine ....... ;)
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I don't agree with TheBoy personally. It IS "possible" to change the timing belt without the locking kit. ....
:o :o You're brave ....... I didn't think anyone was brave enough to say that out loud!
I actually agree with you ...... plenty of V6s have had their cam belts changed without a locking kit. ;) ;)
....Including the first time I did my 2.5cdx. In my pre forum days, because I didn't know any better.
It's quite difficult to do without the kit, hence the op's questions.
Then the next time your prepared, and wish to god you'd used a kit, as its SOOOOO much easier. And quicker. Not to mention, about a million times more accurate.
I've had a kit each time I've done mine ....... ;)
...light weight. ;D
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I've only done one. And i wouldnt have wanted to do it without the kit. if you knock the cam sprockets whilst trying to put the belt on theyll spring round. i cant see (although i dont have aby exact proof) that using ties will help much :-\
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Picture of locked sprockets
http://s213.beta.photobucket.com/user/car6car/media/HamsterJennysprocket007_zpsb6213b5b.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0
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Pmsl, right hand cam is already out just looking at the back cam belt cover.
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interesting locking kit!
As above, right cam looks like its at 3 O'Clock ::)
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Picture of locked sprockets
http://s213.beta.photobucket.com/user/car6car/media/HamsterJennysprocket007_zpsb6213b5b.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0
Wow! ;D This is now my new screen saver.
Buy a lock kit. Then re-sell it if you need to. This will not work though.
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Pmsl, right hand cam is already out just looking at the back cam belt cover.
You are right. It doesn't matter at the moment. Crank is 60 degrees off to protect valves.
Belt has marks. After belt is installed correctly on sprockets, sprockets are adjusted by idler pulleys.
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A wind up surely
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Pmsl, right hand cam is already out just looking at the back cam belt cover.
You are right. It doesn't matter at the moment. Crank is 60 degrees off to protect valves.
Belt has marks. After belt is installed correctly on sprockets, sprockets are adjusted by idler pulleys.
adjusted to match what? You don't have a gauge. I have to say I can't see a point in asking the question in your title, then ignoring the advice.
...other than to post that pic. ;) ;D
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i think....
what the op is saying is that he has the crank at 60o BTDC therefore at the moment his valves are protected.
he's then getting the camshafts lined up.
then will put the crank at TDC.
Then fit belt.
However. as said before, even if you did get the cam ''notches'' lined up you still could be well out.
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Pmsl, right hand cam is already out just looking at the back cam belt cover.
You are right. It doesn't matter at the moment. Crank is 60 degrees off to protect valves.
Belt has marks. After belt is installed correctly on sprockets, sprockets are adjusted by idler pulleys.
adjusted to match what? You don't have a gauge. I have to say I can't see a point in asking the question in your title, then ignoring the advice.
...other than to post that pic. ;) ;D
Sprockets adjusted to marks on rear cover.
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Pmsl, right hand cam is already out just looking at the back cam belt cover.
You are right. It doesn't matter at the moment. Crank is 60 degrees off to protect valves.
Belt has marks. After belt is installed correctly on sprockets, sprockets are adjusted by idler pulleys.
adjusted to match what? You don't have a gauge. I have to say I can't see a point in asking the question in your title, then ignoring the advice.
...other than to post that pic. ;) ;D
Sprockets adjusted to marks on rear cover.
...it does need to be more accurate than that. As does the crank mark.
Add up small errors on all those variables, it can lead to a MUCH bigger error.
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Has to be a wind up .. all that tying up and then saying it matters not as the crank is at 60 BDTC ??? which actually makes the tying up pointless ...... and that is forgetting the simple fact that 3 cable ties in the right places would tie it up beyond any movement ....
Why go to so much effort to look stupid ???
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Why ask the questions if you already know the answer :-X
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You really cannot do this job without the locking and timing kit. Don't even try.
(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out - more than 2 teeth out is bent valaves - but that is not really doing the job...)
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(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out ....
I don't see how you can't get it to within 'something like' by ''rack o'th'eye'' ............... why wouldn't you be able to get it better than 2 teeth out? ??? ???
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You scared me guys! I started engine and got 301 code. Checked compression in 1st cyl, it was Ok!!! :y
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Miss fire cylinder 1..?
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Miss fire cylinder 1..?
Yes.
It was cracked spark plug, I replaced it already.
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(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out ....
I don't see how you can't get it to within 'something like' by ''rack o'th'eye'' ............... why wouldn't you be able to get it better than 2 teeth out? ??? ???
Because all the small errors and intolerances add up to larger ones. And we've all seen how far out a perfectly timed belt can be out after one revolution of crank (which is why we always rotate it twice).
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(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out ....
I don't see how you can't get it to within 'something like' by ''rack o'th'eye'' ............... why wouldn't you be able to get it better than 2 teeth out? ??? ???
Because all the small errors and intolerances add up to larger ones. And we've all seen how far out a perfectly timed belt can be out after one revolution of crank (which is why we always rotate it twice).
Agreed! But that aint two teeth out ;) ;)
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(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out ....
I don't see how you can't get it to within 'something like' by ''rack o'th'eye'' ............... why wouldn't you be able to get it better than 2 teeth out? ??? ???
Because all the small errors and intolerances add up to larger ones. And we've all seen how far out a perfectly timed belt can be out after one revolution of crank (which is why we always rotate it twice).
Agreed! But that aint two teeth out ;) ;)
OOF see an awful lot that are, either with history unknown, or from people who thought they could do it without the correct kit ;)
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(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out ....
I don't see how you can't get it to within 'something like' by ''rack o'th'eye'' ............... why wouldn't you be able to get it better than 2 teeth out? ??? ???
Because all the small errors and intolerances add up to larger ones. And we've all seen how far out a perfectly timed belt can be out after one revolution of crank (which is why we always rotate it twice).
Agreed! But that aint two teeth out ;) ;)
OOF see an awful lot that are, either with history unknown, or from people who thought they could do it without the correct kit ;)
If I still have my Omega in a few years/thousand miles I'll try it without the kit & see how close/far out I am ;) ;)
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(Yes, for the purists, you'll likely get it within 2 teeth out ....
I don't see how you can't get it to within 'something like' by ''rack o'th'eye'' ............... why wouldn't you be able to get it better than 2 teeth out? ??? ???
Because all the small errors and intolerances add up to larger ones. And we've all seen how far out a perfectly timed belt can be out after one revolution of crank (which is why we always rotate it twice).
Agreed! But that aint two teeth out ;) ;)
OOF see an awful lot that are, either with history unknown, or from people who thought they could do it without the correct kit ;)
If I still have my Omega in a few years/thousand miles I'll try it without the kit & see how close/far out I am ;) ;)
You know as well as I do, it is, at best, guesswork.
We should not, and can not, recommend people attempt without the locking/timing kit.
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You know as well as I do, it is, at best, guesswork.
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I know! I said that in my initial answer to the question. But let's get real, the world won't end if you use a bit of savvy & use the timing marks GM provided. ;)
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You know as well as I do, it is, at best, guesswork.
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I know! I said that in my initial answer to the question. But let's get real, the world won't end if you use a bit of savvy & use the timing marks GM provided. ;)
The world won't end if you bend valves. But its still a pain ;)
We see so many that are 2 teeth out, that haven't been done properly. And we know that 3 teeth out is likely to result in valve damage.
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The key reason why need the kit is so you can set the bank timing correctly, with out you have a very high risk of the banks running with different timing.
Its the old proverb, if your going to do a job, do it right.
Other engine types don't need this setup e.g. the 4 pots.
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Are rear cover marks in wrong places? Are they different from gauge marks? It is hard to believe that manufacturer (Opel, not GM) is so stupid to stamp marks in wrong places.
3.2 engines in Cadillac CTS look exactly like 3.0, so they have the same rear covers. What about 3.6 engines? Are they different?
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They are not wrong, just not precise enough to do the job accurately. This should be obvious from the width of the marks on the covers, and that the marks are on the fronts of the pulleys about an inch away. It is really unlikely you'll align all 4cams accurately using these marks. You should consider them as for basic assembly only.
Don't forget that you will need to turn the crank through 2 revolutions and readjust everything untill all 5 marks align
My engine was a tooth retarded on all 4cams, and the tensioner was at the limit of it's travel. There were Tippex marks everywhere which is the usual method for doing cambelts without locking tools. It ran well before, but once it was timed correctly I gained 3MPG, a smoother and quieter engine and much better throttle response. I checked the timing when I replaced the damaged belt cover 15000 miles later and everything was still spot-on.
Doing the job without the tools is nothing more than a best guess, and that isn't good enough.
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Are rear cover marks in wrong places? Are they different from gauge marks? It is hard to believe that manufacturer (Opel, not GM) is so stupid to stamp marks in wrong places.
Opel is just another make within General Motors ??? ???
3.2 engines in Cadillac CTS look exactly like 3.0, so they have the same rear covers. What about 3.6 engines? Are they different?
We don't get a 3.6 here ;)
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3.6 is a push rod lump, totally different beast I believe :y
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The whole timing marks vs the timing tool is intersting to me.
Before I started college having done one cambelt job on my play car, I assumed that every engine irrespective of type (SOHC, DOHC) would have to have a timing tool kit. However on most of the cars we do timing belt jobs on (all 4 pots) we rely on the timing marks and it always seems very wrong to me not to use a timing tool or at least something of similar ilk to the )( tool the V6 requires. Perhaps it's a cost thing... obviously would be major expense to have different tools for lots of different engines..... I think I'll enquire when I'm back.
Ps, to the OP definitely take the advice and get the proper tool. I was just talking about the jobs we do on old wrecks. :y
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The whole timing marks vs the timing tool is intersting to me.
Before I started college having done one cambelt job on my play car, I assumed that every engine irrespective of type (SOHC, DOHC) would have to have a timing tool kit. However on most of the cars we do timing belt jobs on (all 4 pots) we rely on the timing marks and it always seems very wrong to me not to use a timing tool or at least something of similar ilk to the )( tool the V6 requires. Perhaps it's a cost thing... obviously would be major expense to have different tools for lots of different engines..... I think I'll enquire when I'm back.
Ps, to the OP definitely take the advice and get the proper tool. I was just talking about the jobs we do on old wrecks. :y
Most engines, esp SOHC and DHOC, its not infineately adjustable. Its either bang on, or a tooth or more out, and obvious.
GM 54 degree V6 is infinately adjustable, so you can never tell how far out it is.
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The whole timing marks vs the timing tool is intersting to me.
Before I started college having done one cambelt job on my play car, I assumed that every engine irrespective of type (SOHC, DOHC) would have to have a timing tool kit. However on most of the cars we do timing belt jobs on (all 4 pots) we rely on the timing marks and it always seems very wrong to me not to use a timing tool or at least something of similar ilk to the )( tool the V6 requires. Perhaps it's a cost thing... obviously would be major expense to have different tools for lots of different engines..... I think I'll enquire when I'm back.
Ps, to the OP definitely take the advice and get the proper tool. I was just talking about the jobs we do on old wrecks. :y
Most engines, esp SOHC and DHOC, its not infineately adjustable. Its either bang on, or a tooth or more out, and obvious.
GM 54 degree V6 is infinately adjustable, so you can never tell how far out it is.
infinately adjustable by the idlers, for example? yeah i see what you mean about it being bang on or obviously out... but still if i was in a dealership i'd want to have a tool.
i should've also mentioned that, mainly on the french shite boxes weirdly, the camshaft has a built in timing tool e.g. a hole in the sprocket lines up with a hole in the head and you know its bang on when you can get a certain sized allen key in.
interesting!
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Most engines, esp SOHC and DHOC, its not infineately adjustable. Its either bang on, or a tooth or more out, and obvious.
GM 54 degree V6 is infinately adjustable, so you can never tell how far out it is.
The 1700 SOHC diseasal lump in my Astra used just a taper to hold the cam pulley to the cam ie no woodruff key (I believe other manufacturers do something similar :-\), so that was infinitely adjustable too. That needed a specific tool to set the pulley to the cam ....... I just didn't separate them. ;)
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Most engines, esp SOHC and DHOC, its not infineately adjustable. Its either bang on, or a tooth or more out, and obvious.
GM 54 degree V6 is infinately adjustable, so you can never tell how far out it is.
The 1700 SOHC diseasal lump in my Astra used just a taper to hold the cam pulley to the cam ie no woodruff key (I believe other manufacturers do something similar :-\), so that was infinitely adjustable too. That needed a specific tool to set the pulley to the cam ....... I just didn't separate them. ;)
Indeed, surprisingly common. Omega TD has a similar setup, and thats how you adjust cam timing. Their is, obviously, a special timing tool for that.
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The whole timing marks vs the timing tool is intersting to me.
Before I started college having done one cambelt job on my play car, I assumed that every engine irrespective of type (SOHC, DOHC) would have to have a timing tool kit. However on most of the cars we do timing belt jobs on (all 4 pots) we rely on the timing marks and it always seems very wrong to me not to use a timing tool or at least something of similar ilk to the )( tool the V6 requires. Perhaps it's a cost thing... obviously would be major expense to have different tools for lots of different engines..... I think I'll enquire when I'm back.
Ps, to the OP definitely take the advice and get the proper tool. I was just talking about the jobs we do on old wrecks. :y
Most engines, esp SOHC and DHOC, its not infineately adjustable. Its either bang on, or a tooth or more out, and obvious.
GM 54 degree V6 is infinately adjustable, so you can never tell how far out it is.
infinately adjustable by the idlers, for example? yeah i see what you mean about it being bang on or obviously out... but still if i was in a dealership i'd want to have a tool.
i should've also mentioned that, mainly on the french shite boxes weirdly, the camshaft has a built in timing tool e.g. a hole in the sprocket lines up with a hole in the head and you know its bang on when you can get a certain sized allen key in.
interesting!
Most 16v twin cam setups have a wedge to lock the cams together, similar to the V6 red or green ones. Nothing, normally, to lock the crank, or a tool to measure the timing.
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The whole timing marks vs the timing tool is intersting to me.
Before I started college having done one cambelt job on my play car, I assumed that every engine irrespective of type (SOHC, DOHC) would have to have a timing tool kit.
Manufacturers are just trying to make auto mechanic's life hard. This is what they are thinking about every day and night. They are very creative.:)
"Let us make mechanics buy $300 special tool kit"
"Let us save $3 on transmission dipstick"
I could check engine codes by turning key 3 times on my 97 Jeep Cherokee. The only difference between 97 and 98 is that you cannot get codes w/o code reader on 98. :'(
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I looked at it when I fitted a new cambelt kit as part of my blown head gasket engine rebuild, that the cost of the locking kit was less than I was saving in doing it myself.
From the post above, if by doing it accurately you get a 3mpg improvement say from an average of 21mpg to 24mpg over 40,000 miles that is 237 gallons less fuel used. That makes not using the kit rather expensive! At over £6 for a gallon of fuel here that is £1422 or about $2133.
My cam locking kit cost just over £60 or $90!
Save £60 and spend over the next 4 years an extra £1362! Doesn't make sense to me not to. ::) :o :o :o :o
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If anybody wants to buy american timing tool kit, here is where: ;D :) ::)
http://www.autotoolworld.com/product.asp?itemid=149219&gclid=CIyPvMymvrQCFQWonQodGQ4AHg
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If anybody wants to buy american timing tool kit, here is where: ;D :) ::)
http://www.autotoolworld.com/product.asp?itemid=149219&gclid=CIyPvMymvrQCFQWonQodGQ4AHg
$940 - you've got to be joking :o You can buy new in UK for ~ £150 - got mine 2nd hand, hardly used for ~£50. ;)
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If anybody wants to buy american timing tool kit, here is where: ;D :) ::)
http://www.autotoolworld.com/product.asp?itemid=149219&gclid=CIyPvMymvrQCFQWonQodGQ4AHg
Christ! :o :o :o You can buy mine for a bargain $500 ........ half retail price! ;D ;D ;D
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l2736&_nkw=vauxhall+v6+cam+lock+kit (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l2736&_nkw=vauxhall+v6+cam+lock+kit) This brand new. ;) ;)
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The whole timing marks vs the timing tool is intersting to me.
Before I started college having done one cambelt job on my play car, I assumed that every engine irrespective of type (SOHC, DOHC) would have to have a timing tool kit.
Manufacturers are just trying to make auto mechanic's life hard. This is what they are thinking about every day and night. They are very creative.:)
"Let us make mechanics buy $300 special tool kit"
"Let us save $3 on transmission dipstick"
I could check engine codes by turning key 3 times on my 97 Jeep Cherokee. The only difference between 97 and 98 is that you cannot get codes w/o code reader on 98. :'(
I think quite the opposite tbh.
The omega drive by wire engines have the pedal trick. Something gm introduced as a get by in the absence of tech2. Not all country's are as we'll off to afford dealer prices and back up.
I consider the timing marks on the rear cam belt cover to be the mechanics equivalent of the pedal trick, a sort of get by, again, in the absence of the proper factory kit.
Once you've used a locking kit, and indeed tech2, you'll realise the advantages of both.
They save a great deal of time, and accuracy in set up and use generally.
You pays your money...
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See recommended suppliers
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Christ! :o :o :o You can buy mine for a bargain $500 ........ half retail price! ;D ;D ;D
Sorry, I don't British pounds, only dollars. ;D
Well, if I buy yours for $500, I can resell it here for $800... :y ::)
I used special rope to hold sprockets and I can sell it cheap! Looks like new!
I will include dirty rag, which I used to hold timing belt on crank sprocket for free! ;D
Wait a minute, did I remove it before installing front cover or not? ;D
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How much for your special rope mate (in $ will be ok) - as looking at your picture we can buy tie wraps over here very cheap ::) ::) :y
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Christ! :o :o :o You can buy mine for a bargain $500 ........ half retail price! ;D ;D ;D
Sorry, I don't British pounds, only dollars. ;D
Well, if I buy yours for $500, I can resell it here for $800... :y ::)
I used special rope to hold sprockets and I can sell it cheap! Looks like new!
I will include dirty rag, which I used to hold timing belt on crank sprocket for free! ;D
Wait a minute, did I remove it before installing front cover or not? ;D
;D
For your price of your cam locking tool we can buy 2 omega's over here :D I dont think the string thing will go down well in Dragons Den ;D
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How much for your special rope mate (in $ will be ok) - as looking at your picture we can buy tie wraps over here very cheap ::) ::) :y
Rope is expensive, because it was chosen after exact calculation of cams torque, based on load of valve springs.
Diagram and instructions of rope applying is included and priceless.:)
$100 or 150 GB pounds. I also accept Krugerrands.:)
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How much for your special rope mate (in $ will be ok) - as looking at your picture we can buy tie wraps over here very cheap ::) ::) :y
Rope is expensive, because it was chosen after exact calculation of cams torque, based on load of valve springs.
Diagram and instructions of rope applying is included and priceless.:)
$100 or 150 GB pounds. I also accept Krugerrands.:)
Nah - thats b******s - we can get a pack of tie wraps for equivalent to a $ here, and the correct kit for around $80 ::)