Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Murph on 12 January 2013, 17:04:48
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As some may recall I've had coolant leak issues with my 2.5 and had narrowed the likely cause to either the head gasket or a core plug in the head.
I had a feel down the back and the leak seems to be lower than the core plug so yesterday I started ordering the parts for a head gasket change.
However today when I moved the car off the drive I found this...
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/20130112_133052.jpg)
That's oil - and alot of it!
It seems to be dripping of the front of the sump and also more so from the subframe crossmember. It looks like the leak is from above the sump somewhere but I cant be sure.
If it's the head gasket then no problem - I'm gearing up to replace them anyway. But if it's not then I just dont see how this car will survive.
The main suspect for me would be the sump itself as it did bottom out on the driveway the other day - not hard but you never know.. The question is... what will a replacement sump cost?
I really dont have any more money to spare as I live on a very tight budget so I can't keep throwing more money at it, and as you all know these cars just arent worth alot these days - especially with engine issues.
So if I cant sell it and I can't repair it I will just have to remove the few useful parts I can use/sell quickly then weigh it in.
Rant over... for now!
:-[
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Replacement oil sump should be pennies, plenty available through breakers here I should imagine.
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Check the alloy sandwich plate between the bottom of the block and top of the sump. Awkward bugger to fix if its leaking from there.
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Murph is that a 2.5 petrol? If so before you right it off check the oil pressure switch at the front of the block just above the sump. I've noticed a few now where the switch is leaking in fact my current car has a mucky oil stain around the switch.
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It is Doz, so I will look into that, cheers.
The plan for tomorrow is to bung in some old oil then run it and see where the flow is coming from.
If it's fixable It'll be getting new oil anyway.
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Thats only a minor oil leak mate - have you checked oil level?
Could be cam cover gasket, or as doz says, leaking oil pressure switch.
Cleaned your breathers lately? If not crank seal?
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Nothing on dipstick.
Oil level warning on the dash.
Breathers cleaned 2 weeks ago.
Seals and gaskets being checked tomorrow.
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Replacement oil sump should be pennies, plenty available through breakers here I should imagine.
Oil will cost 7,000 pennies in that case tunnie. Can't see many people wanting to sell oil sump off a perfectly good engine. Easy to change though if that is the problem.
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Do not do any work until you diagnose a problem. Spend as much time as needed or pay somebody you trust.
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have you checked the sump bolts for security, i had a weep from the sump a while ago and on checking bolts a few where found to be loose ;)
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That is not a huge amount of oil it must have been losing oil because if you had lost most of the oil out of sump it would be a hell of a lot more on the floor :D is there any oil along the bottom of the car under the floor pan if so then there must be a problem with it coming out from somewhere you just need to follow it back to where it stops and hey presto ;) you bet it will be somewhere nice and easy to get to though >:(
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Unfortunately we didnt get a chance to do much with mine today due to commitments, but I did have a quick look underneath.
Most of the floorpan and exhaust is a lovely shade of brown and the entire sump is wet.
There is some signs of oil on the O/S near the exhaust manifold so but not enough to cause the amount of leaking I've had.
She'll stay off the road for a while I think. ::)
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Put it on jack stands, remove bottom plastic cover and wheels. Get a flash light and mirror on stick.
If leak is really bad, you'll find it w/o washing engine.
Have fun! ;D
I spent a few hours and 5 bottles of brake cleaner to find out, that I forgot to tighten clamp on p.s. hose. :o
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If it's something that simple I'll be made up! ;D
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I have a sump if you need.....
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Hi I had a oil leak on mine which was coming from sensor just above the sump behind the power steering pump
Pain to get to but once stripped down 2 min job just a ring washer needed .
Car is 2.2 estate .prob different but might be of use to you .
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Update.
The car is still sitting on the drive feeling neglected as I simply havent had the time to start stripping it yet.
However...
I saw a swindon racing engine on ebay going silly cheap and as it was local I went to have a look. The seller had no documentation to prove it's heritage but as the engine turned easily with a socket I thought I'd have a punt. It was cheap enough that it would be worth it for a decent pair of heads and a set of cams. I didnt believe it to be a racing engine at that price.
After handing over some cash I got busy emailing Swindon engines to see if I could find out wether it was one of theirs.
Long story short - I now have a build spec sheet and dyno report for the genuine article that is sitting in my trailer.
So in a couple of weeks the Omega should be back on the road with a few extra horses.
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Come on, then.. What spec and how many horses? :D
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Now this could be good as the last v6 swindon i saw was £5000.
And that wasnt special just lightened and balanced,and gentle polish,matched ports and enlarged throttle bodys.
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what a touch!! love to know the specs, if you're really short on cash.............!
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what you have probabally bought is an old super vectra touring engine,that was fitted/used in the one make championship that was a support race for the touring cars in the late 90's.(thinks back to them days)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP0UEbNan2c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP0UEbNan2c)
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I have a spreadsheet that Swindon sent me relating to the engine VV019.
It was built by Swindon in '99 and has since been rebuilt by them due to being over-revved at Snetterton.
Here's the dyno sheet from after the rebuild:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Dyno2_zps89fe0b43.jpg)
You'll notice that they were using a standard Vectra inlet and nothing exotic on the exhaust side either.
Am I right in thinking that the Omega's inlet should produce better results in comparison?
Obviously I won't be expecting that level of power after all these years..... but you never know!
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Have you got the ECU (Weber Alpha+) named on the build sheet?
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Unfortunately not. :'(
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Did you happen to notice the the idle speed? I'd love an engine like that BUT I fear that is going to be pretty horrible to drive on the road I'm afraid. If the idle speed is correct then mounting it to a standard auto box will be pretty horrible. Your going to need at least a custom remap or a stand alone ECU. The standard one won't be able to adapt to the mechanical changes.
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That's a fair point Doz.
I may just sell it on once I get it running, if its too harsh that is.
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Does anyone know how radical the engine work was?
As the engine was destined for use in a fairly restrictive formula racing series the work probably focused on blueprinting, balancing, porting and polishing. As long as the camshafts weren't changed and the compression ratio remained (almost) unchanged the engine should just behave as a particalarly 'sweet' example of a standard engine if coupled to the standard ECU and a standard mass flywheel (or torque converter).
The race ECU would probably give a more aggressive throttle response (with fuel consumption to match) and might use a richer fuel mixture at WOT to keep the piston crowns and exhaust valves overheating.
If you have a buyer offering good money then sell it on but otherwise you may as well use it and enjoy it :y
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I was going for a bit of both.
I can't resist rebuilding and fitting it simply because it's there, I can and I want to see what happens. However I suspect it's going to be a bit on the thirsty side of practical for long term use.
So once it's been running and I've satisfied my curiosity I will either remove and sell the engine then fit another standard one, or just sell the whole car with the engine fitted.
First things first though - I need to get it running.
Anyone got a sump going cheap? :y
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2woody has already posted that he has a sump ::) :y
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Replacement oil sump should be pennies, plenty available through breakers here I should imagine.
Oil will cost 7,000 pennies in that case tunnie. Can't see many people wanting to sell oil sump off a perfectly good engine. Easy to change though if that is the problem.
I have one, but for a 2.2 seems they can and do become porous and begin to leak, ridiculous to me on a modern car....... ::) ::) :-X
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Yep, that won't be a particularly aggressive tune. You can see that power peaks at 6500 which isn't far off a standard engine. The torque at lower revs drops off more than I'd expect. Either the intake they used was short or they did put hot cams in it. An Omega intake will bring that back up.
If they've put lairy cams in it they are not doing their job, probably due to valve sizes or some other restriction in the breathing but, if that's the case, it's only an afternoon's work to replace them for some 3L cams which should see it perform very well.
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i used to work in the V6 plant on durability- the torque was different because they locked off the multi ram system which gives low down torque - if you see pictures of the engines they used for this they actually wired them off so they couldnt move. the higher rpm was to improve power which it did probably more by ecu than engine mods - i know one after market tuner used to block off the oil pressure regulater which regulates the oil pressure to 5 bar and instead used the oil pressure relief valve which was regulated to around 10 bar - ok for short term race then rebuild the engine but no good for every day use.
Yep, that won't be a particularly aggressive tune. You can see that power peaks at 6500 which isn't far off a standard engine. The torque at lower revs drops off more than I'd expect. Either the intake they used was short or they did put hot cams in it. An Omega intake will bring that back up.
If they've put lairy cams in it they are not doing their job, probably due to valve sizes or some other restriction in the breathing but, if that's the case, it's only an afternoon's work to replace them for some 3L cams which should see it perform very well.
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Yep, that won't be a particularly aggressive tune. You can see that power peaks at 6500 which isn't far off a standard engine. The torque at lower revs drops off more than I'd expect. Either the intake they used was short or they did put hot cams in it. An Omega intake will bring that back up.
If they've put lairy cams in it they are not doing their job, probably due to valve sizes or some other restriction in the breathing but, if that's the case, it's only an afternoon's work to replace them for some 3L cams which should see it perform very well.
As we know, the head and valve design is quite restrictive with anything over 10mm or so of lift highlighting the port restriction.
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According to the build part numbers list the cams are Cadillac Cetera 3.0 Cams.
In Europe they are sold as Opel performance cams.
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I've been busy amassing parts for the rebuild.
It's a slow process as I have no money to spare (who does eh?) but I'm getting there.
So far I have ordered:
Cam timing kit (ordered, paid for, hasnt turned up - ebay dispute pending I think! >:( )
3.2 Exhaust manifolds (breathe dammit!)
Sump
Sump gasket.
I have started stripping the engine and it's covered in cobwebs.
The cam timing is out - not far so no damage but still...
If you look at the pic you can see that the right bank doesnt line up the same as the left.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/20130219_125308_zpsb1e52822.jpg)
The manifolds have also been removed.
The next thing to do will be remove and check the oil cooler.
There is a small amount of dust/debris on top of the valves on the left bank so I'll be giving that a blast with the air line to clear it.
Once I get the sump changed over I'll get some parts removed from the old engine to fit. I have so far left the old engine alone so that I can move the car if needed.
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There has been some progress.
The Swindon engine has been thoroughly cleaned, inspected, stripped down and painted. The old engine is out and the engine mounts have been transferred over along with the sump, starter and brackets for the aircon and power steering.
I re-used the cam pulley wheels off the old engine as the ones fitted to the new engine were a bit pitted between the teeth.
The water pump seemed ok but behind it there hid a mess!
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130301_100245_zpse1e5683d.jpg)
That's all been flushed out now and the stainless steel heat exchanger has been fitted.
I fitted the water pump from the old engine as I know it's good, having fitted it myself only six months ago.
The old engine was pretty well mayo'd up.
Plans:
Finish transferring parts from old engine (knock sensors etc)
Delete the now unnecessary exhaust port restrictions with a port grinder.
Fit the 3.2 manifolds (waiting on gaskets ATM)
Modify the downpipes
Once all that is done I can get it off the stand and fit the flex plate (new bolts) ready to get it into the car.
It's slow going, mainly due to working on my own most of the time and the pain meds I'm on not working too well. Still, slow progress is still progress!
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Keep it up Murph. I'm keen to see the how this works out. Takes a while but once you get your head round it the Omegas not to bad to work on. However I do sometimes find myself wishing for a straight 6 Carlton :P
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that sounds just the same spec as the Vectra Gsi engine - 2.5 with 3.0 cams for around 200 BHP.
I wonder what the difference between the map in that webcon ECU and the kosher Vectra one is ?
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More progress today, although not as much as I would have liked.
Here's what I started with:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130217_133242_zps92790a62.jpg)
..and here's where it's at now.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130308_173532_zps1233d270.jpg)
I was supplied the wrong cam cover gaskets so I have temporarily fitted the metal covers. I'll get the right ones and when they start to leak I will change them back to the plastics.
It's had a good clean and a coat of paint, the oil cooler has been reseated with new seals and the plate has been reseated.
3.2 Manifolds are now on and the new timing kit is on and set up.
When my mate helped me remove the engine he insisted on stripping most of it out first and I'm sure this wasn't necessary. All the wiring is still under the bonnet but I'm sure it can be fitted back onto the engine prior to fitting so I'll be looking at that tomorrow.
I have a head gasket to change on a Carlton tomorrow so I may not get as much done as I'd like.... again!
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Plans:
Finish transferring parts from old engine (knock sensors etc)
Delete the now unnecessary exhaust port restrictions with a port grinder.
Fit the 3.2 manifolds (waiting on gaskets ATM)
Modify the downpipes
So what does that involve Murph?
BTW, I have all the bits here to convert to manual if you wanna do that at the same time ;)
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The EGR outlet ports can be ground out and the ports matched to the 3.2 manifolds, which should improve flow.
The downpipes need to be slightly modified to fit the flanges on the 3.2 Manifolds - nothing major though, 5 mins with a frinder will see it done.
Manual conversion eh? I can't say I'm not tempted but Sterling is a bit of a way to come pick up parts, I doubt I'd end up in your neck of the woods again any time soon unfortunately.
I didnt get anything done yesterday as the Carlton turned into a nightmare of a job.... in fact it's still here and in need of a new engine.
We got the head gasket done and had it running, but while we were filling the coolant system it suffered a terminal bottom end failure which has completely locked up the engine. Luckily I have a spare engine but it wont go in til next weekend now.
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have plenty of Carlton engines here......
what do you need ?
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It's a C20NE but no worries - we have another C20NE, a 20SE and a 20SEH to choose from.
The biggest problem I have is that my back is complaining about misuse!
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The EGR outlet ports can be ground out and the ports matched to the 3.2 manifolds, which should improve flow.
So it that a head off job?
The downpipes need to be slightly modified to fit the flanges on the 3.2 Manifolds - nothing major though, 5 mins with a frinder will see it done.
I'm sure it'll be obvious when the 3.2 mainfolds arrive.
Manual conversion eh? I can't say I'm not tempted but Sterling is a bit of a way to come pick up parts, I doubt I'd end up in your neck of the woods again any time soon unfortunately.
You know where I am if you change your mind mate ;)
I didnt get anything done yesterday as the Carlton turned into a nightmare of a job.... in fact it's still here and in need of a new engine.
We got the head gasket done and had it running, but while we were filling the coolant system it suffered a terminal bottom end failure which has completely locked up the engine. Luckily I have a spare engine but it wont go in til next weekend now.
Nightmare!
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I've had better days Steve :-\
I've had to rest up since the weekend but will be out there tomorrow trying to make some progress. I have a friend pitching in and another coming on saturday and sunday.
What I really need is someone who's done this job on an omega before.
Any volunteers?
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It's just a Carlton underneath mate ;) Hope it goes well.
So to grind out the EGR ports, are you doing that with the head still on?
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Yes, although sensible precautions will be taken - I stuffed the valve chambers with tissue to stop ingress when I did the last one.
I don't think I'll get the chance to do this one yet though as time is against me now -tis a shame but I can always go back in later.
I spent today reassembling the engine ready to drop back in so it should be running this weekend, as long as my helpers turn up this time!
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It's alive! :D
The Swindon lump fired up pretty much straight away and idles very nicely. It was quite noisy at first but that was expected as the engine hasn't been run in about 7 years so the lifters were dry, but once it warmed up it settled down nicely and is now quieter than the old engine by far.
On the road test the EML came on which was accompanied by a stutter from the engine.
I was bloody knackered by that point and bloody annoyed because I have managed to lose the key to my Carlton which was blocking the Omega on the drive - we had to break out the barrel - so I will check the codes tomorrow and report back.
But hey.... it's running!
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It's alive! :D
The Swindon lump fired up pretty much straight away and idles very nicely. It was quite noisy at first but that was expected as the engine hasn't been run in about 7 years so the lifters were dry, but once it warmed up it settled down nicely and is now quieter than the old engine by far.
On the road test the EML came on which was accompanied by a stutter from the engine.
I was bloody knackered by that point and bloody annoyed because I have managed to lose the key to my Carlton which was blocking the Omega on the drive - we had to break out the barrel - so I will check the codes tomorrow and report back.
But hey.... it's running!
Nice work :y
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Cheers :y
Bloody heater is still cold though! ::)
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Cheers :y
Bloody heater is still cold though! ::)
What? Replacing engine didn't fix heater? No way! ;D
Did anybody try to install heater from old Volkswagen Bittle? They had muffler based heaters... ;D
Good luck with your new engine. :y
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Cheers :y
Bloody heater is still cold though! ::)
What? Replacing engine didn't fix heater? No way! ;D
Did anybody try to install heater from old Volkswagen Bittle? They had muffler based heaters... ;D
Good luck with your new engine. :y
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Dont you mean VW brittle ::) ;D
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I had hoped the heating issue was down - at least in part - do the lack of pressure in the system.
The new engine will have ruled that out at least.
The stored code turned out to be down to an electrical connection that hadn't seated properly so that was an easy fix!
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Moderator!!!!
Fix my spelling mistake Beatle!
What is dead line to modify posts? Who can cancel it?
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After a whole 60 miles the car broke down again!
My mechanic friend was convinced that the torque converter had parted company from the flex plate - how wrong he was!
What had happened was alot worse!
The bolt in the top cambelt tensioner had sheered off causing the belt to go slack and skip a few teeth, bending pretty much all the valves in the process.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130329_191016_zps544b19ca.jpg)
However, having diagnosed the previous engine with a head gasket failure, I have the gaskets and bolts ready, along with the heads from the old engine. Swindon engines used stock heads when building this engine so nothing will be lost by swapping for the heads from the original engine.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130329_142518_zps2c04889c.jpg)
This presents me with the opportunity to do a few things I didn't have time for when I swapped the engine, and put right a few things that I got wrong before. Firstly, the heads are having the exhaust ports opened up to match the 3.2 manifolds.
Before:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130329_173818_zpse894bec8.jpg)
After:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130329_165134_zpsf0c9f3ce.jpg)
I didn't swap the dipstick tube last time as I didn't see the difference in them until after the engine was in, so that's being done now, and the heater matrix will be flushed through so hopefully I'll have some heat in the cabin.
Today saw the engine stripped down and the new heads prepared for fitting tomorrow.
Game on!
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dont leave that out there in the garden. get it on the kitchen table. its warmer :y
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Yeah but the shed is cold.
That's where I'll be sleeping if I get caught with a cylinder head (or two) in the kitchen! :o
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murph, great thread. after reading this am I right in thinkin that the head gasket went on the new engine?
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murph, great thread.
Thanks! :y
after reading this am I right in thinkin that the head gasket went on the new engine?
No the gaskets were fine but all the valves are bent so the heads must come off.
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No the gaskets were fine but all the valves are bent so the heads must come off.
:y
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Got a couple of 3ltr heads here if needed bud :y
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Kinell :o Back to the drawing board , still at least you have some spares :y
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Talk about bad luck.
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Man, you must love that car! Most would've weighed it in by now!
I'm about to do an engine swap on mine actually - got any tips for removal and re-fitting? Not worried about the connections as such, just the physical aspect of getting the lump out and back in.
Will be with box attached and I have an engine crane.
Actually, will start new topic and close-out this thread-jack. http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=113512.msg1431335#msg1431335 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=113512.msg1431335#msg1431335)
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That I do, but more importantly the previous owner was my step-kids grandfather so they won't let me scrap it! ;D
Anyhoo... work continues.
We got the new heads ported and got one fitted but as we went to fit the second I found this...
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130330_181009_zps14bcd7e8.jpg)
That's one of several quite large pits on the mating face of the head. It's the head that blew it's gasket on the old engine so I was'nt happy with using this one.
So... back out with the porting kit and another head was modified to suit. of course that meant stripping out 12 bent valves and fitting nice straight ones. While we were there the manifolds got a little attention too.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130330_123200_zps4b40728b.jpg)
Not too much, just a little flow improvement.
While I was inspecting the other parts I found some damage caused by the roller that broke loose.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130330_105949_zps197b1e68.jpg)
That's the inside of the cambelt housing back plate, so I dug a spare out of the parts bin.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/daymurphy/Swindon/20130330_110034_zpsed879f93.jpg)
I also found a set of gaskets for the plastic cam covers so they will be refitted.
Due to delays we only got as far as fitting the second head and even then it's still not torqued down properly, but at least progress has been made.
I'll try to get some time in on the car during the week but a sick missus is limiting my free time at the moment.
Watch this space....
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if you think this is extreme, just wait till I tell you about my week of Omegas
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if you think this is extreme, just wait till I tell you about my week of Omegas
<Balanced on edge of seat> Go on, then... ;)
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not till its running......
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You must have a big parts bin murph , but its always handy :) Ive still got a few bits left in the shed ready for the next one ::)
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Actually no. ;D
My parts bin consists of the old engine. And nothing else!
So far that's all I've needed though, thankfully.
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so far this week, I've robbed two cylinder blocks, three crankshafts and five cylinder heads out of my stockpile and it still won't run.
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Then surely the problem must be electrical rather than mechanical? :o
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so far this week, I've robbed two cylinder blocks, three crankshafts and five cylinder heads out of my stockpile and it still won't run.
Five cylinder heads? Two cylinder blocks? What are you building, a W15? ;D
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so far this week, I've robbed two cylinder blocks, three crankshafts and five cylinder heads out of my stockpile and it still won't run.
Five cylinder heads? Two cylinder blocks? What are you building, a W15? ;D
Can't wait to see the rolling road figure for that!!
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ok - so the first engine succumbed to big-end failure
reground crankshaft and bearings fitted, when I noticed the crack in the block
next - out for a block change and auto-ectomy
then when it went back in, the oil pump sprang a massive internal leak, leading to big end failure no. 2
then, once rebuilt with another crank, it ran for just about a minute before seizing a cam bearing and pulling the cam belt off.
so I changed the RH head for one without bent valves and properly set up the timing again, only to find out ( the hard way ) that the key inside the crank pulley had broken and the pulley shifted out of line. actually, the backfire was so intense that the air filter box left the building through the roofing boards.
so, the latest new head and crank pulley were fitted this afternoon and it runs again.
some things are sent from above to remind you that you're not quite as clever as you'd hope
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^^^ He loves his car more!!! :y
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^^^ He loves his car more!!! :y
I have to agree!
Pretty scary tho that it managed to detonate the air box :o :o
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ok - so the first engine succumbed to big-end failure
reground crankshaft and bearings fitted, when I noticed the crack in the block
next - out for a block change and auto-ectomy
then when it went back in, the oil pump sprang a massive internal leak, leading to big end failure no. 2
then, once rebuilt with another crank, it ran for just about a minute before seizing a cam bearing and pulling the cam belt off.
so I changed the RH head for one without bent valves and properly set up the timing again, only to find out ( the hard way ) that the key inside the crank pulley had broken and the pulley shifted out of line. actually, the backfire was so intense that the air filter box left the building through the roofing boards.
so, the latest new head and crank pulley were fitted this afternoon and it runs again.
some things are sent from above to remind you that you're not quite as clever as you'd hope
:o :o :o
;D
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strangely, it didn't blow the bagpipes up, although the convoluted hoses at the top were parted.
The AFM and the idle motor didn't work again, tho
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I finally got some time outside today and the car is alive again!
New cam belt, new aux belt, original dipstick tube and cam covers refitted with new gaskets.
I'll give it another oil change in a week or so then she should be good for another few years of service.... I hope!