Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: SMD on 02 February 2013, 19:07:22
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Tony himself set up the car so obviously done correctly but car is not driving straight. It needs a fair bit of correction and wheel is off centre which is annoying.
If I'm honest it drives no better than before. :-\
Maybe I had too high expectations
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Couple of thoughts... Did you get new tyres too or are they tyres that have worn from the old setup? If the latter then they can ruin the handing for the remainder of their life and will continue to wear according to the pattern that has begun.
Second one is that you may need to return ::)
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New tyres fitted too
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New tyres fitted too
In that case you need to speak with Tony and get it back ASAP :y
Was the geometry wildly out or fairly close before he started?
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I'll put the geometry details later tonight.
I give Tony a call on Monday
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Do they not test drive the car ? Langs in Bolton did with mine :-\
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No they didn't. Maybe its just me being fussy.
IIRC, gixer isn't that far from WIM. Maybe I should get a second opinion before I make a fool out of myself in front of Tony
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Rumour has it that it costs a hundred notes to take an Omega here.......Can it possibly be worth it? :-\
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Rumour has it that it costs a hundred notes to take an Omega here.......Can it possibly be worth it? :-\
The Rumour is wrong then ;) ;)
Is it worth it... Yes, if it's right you can really notice the difference :y :y
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Rumour has it that it costs a hundred notes to take an Omega here.......Can it possibly be worth it? :-\
The Rumour is wrong then ;) ;)
Is it worth it... Yes, if it's right you can really notice the difference :y :y
How much, Mr Lazydocker?
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£60+VAT
Do the math :)
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ive just contacted wim for numbers for geometry set up so a company near me who sets up porshe and lotus can set mine up,i too have now got an off set steering wheel since my tracking was set up twice not going back there,this was after replaceing a new top mount that failed at 1 year and 7300 miles but i was very careful to not move geo on strut, so think the tracking caused the cock up and shes not right to drive now,she sits 40 mm lower than standard elite think thats where the tracking prob has come frome its been set to factory and shes far from that lol. on winding a roads feels like shes trying to tuck in on corners. :o
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Did you tell them it was lowered 40mm though? It makes a difference ;)
WIM can and do normally get it right. There are many members who have been there and had a perfect set up, TB included, and only a hand full who have had unsatisfactory results.
To SMD, I stand by what I said... Contact Tony on Monday and I'm sure he'll suggest having another look ;)
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I went to wims after daz put my springs and shocks. (30mm dropped)I ended up with a off centred steering wheel. I took it back and he straightened it.At no charge. I still wasnt happy with the way it drove and somebody adviced speaking to Kevin wood and getting the power assistance turned down. I did this and the car now drives prity good. It still tram lines a bit but I put that down to the 2mm left on the front tyres.
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I went to wims after daz put my springs and shocks. (30mm dropped)I ended up with a off centred steering wheel. I took it back and he straightened it.At no charge. I still wasnt happy with the way it drove and somebody adviced speaking to Kevin wood and getting the power assistance turned down. I did this and the car now drives prity good. It still tram lines a bit but I put that down to the 2mm left on the front tyres.
Undoubtedly that will make a difference ;)
As for turning the assistance down... Good point. If the assistance is set too high it can have strange results
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Tony himself set up the car so obviously done correctly but car is not driving straight. It needs a fair bit of correction and wheel is off centre which is annoying.
If I'm honest it drives no better than before. :-\
Maybe I had too high expectations
Unfortunate, and it does happen, but I don't know anywhere else to recommend or trust more than wim given your location SMD.
As discussed when you where here, sometimes seized track rods at the rear can make the back run at a different line to the front. Thrust centre I think that call it. If the back thrust centre is off to one side, the front won't be straight.
An off centre steering wheel is annoying, but won't do any harm in terms of tyre wear. If its pulling however, that suggests a camber issue as well. Which "may" see odd wear. Although unlikely.
It may be it just needs a tweak on front camber to account for road crown, but we'll see when the figures are posted. Before and after settings will be interesting too.
It might also be a case of swapping front wheels to the opposite sides to account for run out. But it needs to go back to them, and let them sort it. Sadly. :(
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As others have said, give WIM a call, give them a chance to put it right - I don't think its just a case of them setting to certain settings, as these cars are all old, there will be wear and maybe slightly twisted components etc, which all have to be taken into account, along with what the driver complaints are.
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gave WIM all the info on car everything up front is new at back she has bilstein shocks no air,also told them what wheels and tyres fitted fronts are pirelli rosso and were new 11 mths ago when i replaced all suspention as i wanted her to go round corners lol,all was good for 6 mths thinking back also did both back wheel bearings , as i only use her at week end or if going up lincs to see my mum i didnt drive her enough to worry to much ,alittle tram lining on crap roads where lorrys sink the tarmac,but when the tracking was done it made it worse and again when i took it back,there is no adverse or uneven wear on tyres.also have an anoying knock very slight from i think rear nearside but have checked again and again nothing worn and rear drop links changed,only on bumpy roads or potholes starting to think it maybe exhaust .old cars dont you love them,
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Where to start...firstly for the record I wouldn't take my car/s anywhere other than to Tony/WIM despite this small setback. As said in the OP it may just be me (re: the handling) which is why I asked for a second opinion. I don't know how active Tony is on this forum, or if he is reading this. Certainly not having a pop at him, although it does probably seem that way :-[
Chris, the nearside rear track rod was adjusted, OSR was fine. Looking at the print out, it says "steering wheel is currently level". Don't know if this refers to before starting work of after, so it could have been my fault for not mentioning that the wheel was not straight when I got there :-[
Print out:
(http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t440/Zaf_Yousef/IMAG0543_zpsd047ec69.jpg)
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going by previous discussions, by the looks of that, front axle, camber, left, actual setting needs to be increased by the looks. 0.57 needs to be more than on the right to account for the road crown. Or it will run towards the gutter.
Although its a tiny fraction of a difference in real terms according to those figures. Tbh.
Maybe swapping wheels around will help a fraction too. ...? :-\
Shame, as the toe setting is cock on. :y
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The car does have a tendency to wander towards the gutter or to the left when on motorways when steering wheel is central. When I drove it yesterday on some roads (very few) the steering wheel is central and car drives straight but on most it wants to go left
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Chris, the nearside rear track rod was adjusted, OSR was fine. Looking at the print out, it says "steering wheel is currently level". Don't know if this refers to before starting work of after, so it could have been my fault for not mentioning that the wheel was not straight when I got there
This might be the crux of the issue :-\
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You're probably right. The excitement of being in the company of TheBoy made me forget to mention it and I assumed it was part of the setup
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Like others have mentioned, speak to WIM & explain your issues.
I've no doubt they will want to resolve it for you :y
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They set the steering wheel position straight and clamp it to the seat before they start. Then set the track rod adjusters to straight ahead from there, once caster and camber are set.
The actual position of the steering wheel is really not that important in real terms. Although it should be level. In fact, if that left front camber setting had been increased, I suspect strongly the car would be spot on.
It probably only needs no more than 0.10 minutes increase. (60minutes to 1 degree)
Although tyre run out "might" play a part :-\ Tony will advise no doubt.
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I have been there 3 times now and mine is still not right
The steering wheels is straight ahead but car drives left ,to keep car in a straight line I have to hold the steering wheel slightly down to the right
Tony has suggested it could be a tyre problem and I need to swap front wheels over side to side to see what happens
I can't remember what tires I have on the car Think they are Nexan ? But they are directional
As I haven't done this yet I don't know if this sort the problem
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Rears to the front?
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well after speaking to wim then talking to the local place i was going to ,i have no confidence in them so have booked geo with wim for weds morning .
i will let you know how it goes.bit of a trek for me but hopefuly worth it.
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Feltham Tyres http://www.felthamtyre.co.uk/ (http://www.felthamtyre.co.uk/) were very good on my mig, camber front and rear.
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Feltham Tyres http://www.felthamtyre.co.uk/ (http://www.felthamtyre.co.uk/) were very good on my mig, camber front and rear.
What did they set camber, toe, castor and thrust angle to? Then we can decide if they are any good :)
99% of the geometry specialists out there set Omegas up incorrectly.
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wow castor too how much does all that cost at WIM?
As I recall Feltham Tyre were half the price on camber:
Alignment Check £22.00
Alignment Front Toe & Rear Check £42.00
Alignment Front Toe and Rear Toe £63.00
Alignment Front Toe & Camber Front £63.00
Alignment Front & Rear Toe & 1 Camber £93.00
Alignment Front & Rear Toe & 2 Camber £123.00
They didn't mind me watching to make sure they get the settings correct and their equipment looks good kit. Spotless workshop too.
They used Vaux settings nothing black art, fine with me.
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i dont really understand the print out and toe and camber etc...
what i do know is i had a severe ''wandering'' with the car. youd be driving at 70mph and it would all of a sudden veer off. couple of scary moments.
took to WIM. All corrected and hasn't reared its head since. cost 70 bucks iirc :y
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wow castor too how much does all that cost at WIM?
As I recall Feltham Tyre were half the price on camber:
Alignment Check £22.00
Alignment Front Toe & Rear Check £42.00
Alignment Front Toe and Rear Toe £63.00
Alignment Front Toe & Camber Front £63.00
Alignment Front & Rear Toe & 1 Camber £93.00
Alignment Front & Rear Toe & 2 Camber £123.00
They didn't mind me watching to make sure they get the settings correct and their equipment looks good kit. Spotless workshop too.
One charge at wim. Not sure the standard charge,(£90+vat?) but iirc OOF members get a discount to £60 +vat. Might have gone up.
Micheldever charge £20 per setting. With a total of £80 if everything needs doing, but that was a while ago.
We need to see their figures and what your car was set to before trusting them.
Did they give you the print out, final figures...? :)
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wheel is off centre which is annoying.
Had this on my last mig (not WIM though). Caused by lazy tracking adjustment (not adjusting both track rods at the same time), tracking will likely be fine but just the annoying off centre wheel. You just need to keep taking it back until they get it dead centre. In my expericence sometimes the only way to make a cheap tyre tracker accept it is out is to take them for a drive, they will swear blind it is spot on in the workshop.
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One charge at wim. Not sure the standard charge,(£90+vat?) but iirc OOF members get a discount to £60 +vat. Might have gone up.
Did they give you the print out, final figures...? :)
WIM (Blackboots) was £95+ VAT and front only, didn't know about the £60 deal. FT prices above inc VAT I think so still cheaper (£63 v £72).
I have the full printout somewhere it was all within Vaux specs, fine with me I don't really subscribe to all the black art stuff.
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wheel is off centre which is annoying.
Had this on my last mig (not WIM though). Caused by lazy tracking adjustment (not adjusting both track rods at the same time), tracking will likely be fine but just the annoying off centre wheel. You just need to keep taking it back until they get it dead centre. In my expericence sometimes the only way to make a cheap tyre tracker accept it is out is to take them for a drive, they will swear blind it is spot on in the workshop.
Judging by the final measurements in the printout they did adjust it correctly, as the toe measurements are perfectly even. One of the problems is that there's quite a bit of slop in the steering gear, especially if the engine isn't running, and it's not predictable where this will end up once on the road. They used to test drive the car to check steering wheel position, but that's going back quite a while, as I haven't been there for a long time.
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good point the printout is showing both as 7, the steering wheel should be dead straight. However I see the old figures were 3 and 13.
I am guessing your steering wheel now has to be turned a bit to the right to go straight. If so then either something else is wrong that they missed or more likely they didn't get the front wheels in line when they adjusted.
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One charge at wim. Not sure the standard charge,(£90+vat?) but iirc OOF members get a discount to £60 +vat. Might have gone up.
Did they give you the print out, final figures...? :)
WIM (Blackboots) was £95+ VAT and front only, didn't know about the £60 deal. FT prices above inc VAT I think so still cheaper (£63 v £72).
I have the full printout somewhere it was all within Vaux specs, fine with me I don't really subscribe to all the black art stuff.
Not a good start. This is the problem. Most places think that's all they have to do, is get it in the green. Vauxhall tolerances are WAY too wide. Poor handling and tyre wear are so easily encountered as to say, those settings are fairly useless. Lessons learned on here through bitter experience have proved that.
Wim have taken the time to find much tighter settings. With much tighter tolerances.
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hang on toe was -3 and -13, not 3 and 13. let me think. Yes still I guess you now have to hold the wheel to the right. That was out quite a bit, significant toe out instead of toe in, how did it feel before?
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hang on was -3 and -13, not 3 and 13. let me think. Yes still I guess you now have to hold the wheel to the right. That was out quite a bit, how did it feel before?.
;D Have you not read the first page dbdb? ;) :)
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yes it just says 'not driving straight'. Was it wandering or was it going straight and stable when you held the wheel to one side? Looking at the significant toe out I supect it was wandering.
Aha just seen one other bit of info - steering was out before WIM. I imagine it had to be held to the left to go straight. Also see you now have to hold it to the right to go straight, very prescient of me. ;) Should no longer be wandering though.
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yes it just says 'not driving straight'. Was it wandering or was it going straight and stable when you held the wheel to one side? Looking at the significant toe out I supect it was wandering.
It's the after setting that's important. No? As said, pas side camber needs increasing. Camber will pull the car off line. Uneven toe just means the steering wheel will be off, and little else. Uneven toe won't cause a pull, as the driver will steer straight anyway, regardless of steering wheel position. :) excessive combined toe will scrub tyres, but will still drive straight.
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Before the wheel had to be held right to go straight. Now the wheel still has to go right to go straight but to a lesser extent.
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It's unfair of me to say it drives no better than before, it used to tramline and wander all over and generally felt sloppy and now the more I drive it all that has gone and corners more accurately but still maintain steering is out or the car likes to drift to the left. :)
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Before the wheel had to be held right to go straight. Now the wheel still has to go right to go straight but to a lesser extent.
Tyres on the car at that point would have had more affect on the handling than the set up though, don't forget.
Odd sorts, with different levels of wear on each. I'm surprised it drove as well as it did tbh. :y
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See, part worns aren't that bad ;D
Tony was off sick today so hoping he is back tomorrow.
He did say when setting up he went for slightly less camber due to the soft front suspension so it had more tolerance for camber to increase over time when going over bumps and potholes (i hope I'm not misquoting). Not sure if thats for one side only. I assumed both sides.
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See, part worns aren't that bad ;D
Must have been a "very carefully matched" very odd set then. ;) ;D
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Uneven toe just means the steering wheel will be off, and little else. Uneven toe won't cause a pull, as the driver will steer straight anyway, regardless of steering wheel position. :) excessive combined toe will scrub tyres, but will still drive straight.
But the toe was significantly toe out that would cause wandering/being unstable in a straight line and is v bad on a neg camber car like the mig.
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hope tonys back tommorow im booked for 10 am fingers crossed.
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I'm going there at 11. Tony said he should be there.
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Went to see Tony today to correct the wonky steering wheel.
With the steering wheel central (double checked by myself) the toe was definately out so after a few adjustments I was on my way but it didnt feel right, the steering was still out but in the other direction (wheel needed turning left to go straight). On some roads it felt fine and drove straight so I couldnt help but wonder if the problem was in my head. After driving around for 45 mins on various types of road, getting lost ::), heading towards home and WIM (couldn't decide if I should go back) I took it back.
Good decision it was too as it was out again. This time he put a bar between the front wheels after setting the steering central and made some adjustments to the rear track rods and the front which seems to have done the job, no more wonky steering wheel. :y
Also met Pirate there with his clean and shiny (but inferior) PFL Elite Estate. :y
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Tbh,I would find it unnacceptable to have to go back two or three times to have the job done properly.the time and cost of petrol involved makes it an expensive excercise imo.With the reputation they have I would have thought WIM would make sure they get it right first time ? :-\
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Tbh,I would find it unnacceptable to have to go back two or three times to have the job done properly.the time and cost of petrol involved makes it an expensive excercise imo.With the reputation they have I would have thought WIM would make sure they get it right first time ? :-\
But it can't always be perfect first time, every time... We're all human ;)
Plus, if heat has to be used to free things off then that can have a big impact ;)
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It seems to be a common problem though.Iirc there have been quite a few mentions of steering wheel not pointing straight ahead on here after a visit to WIM ?
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It seems to be a common problem though.Iirc there have been quite a few mentions of steering wheel not pointing straight ahead on here after a visit to WIM ?
This is the danger if being overly positive IMO. Real world only applies. Wim are without doubt the premier set up company for the omega IMO. But nobody's perfect. Ever.
I've lost count how many times I've had to return mine, through very similar problems as SMD's. But I wouldn't take it anywhere else. Although some of that is location driven.
Important thing is its sorted. :y
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cant praise tony enough spot on job after it was made worse by local idiot doing the tracking wrong,car has settled well and im enjoying her again well apart from the sodding potholes and speed bumps,inferior pfl estate lol its not inferior its the only bloody one ha,steinmetz rule
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I agree with the two main points made in recent posts - EG - 1) WIM are the best place to get the Omega (and probably anything else) set up.. and 2) We all make mistakes / don't get things perfect / encouter difficulties for all manner of legitimate reasons.
With WIM, what swings it, apart from the complete confidence I have in them, is the fact that they will let you go back, and will listen to your symptoms, believe you, and work with you to improve them.
I can't see likes of 5h1t fit doing anything other than fob people off.
My ONLY negative comment about WIM is that, with the full geo setup, you pay a flat rate. Now this COULD work out very well for someone needing lots of adjustments, however the few times I've been, I've opted for the full Geo, and it's only needed the toe adjusted... so I've essentially paid a full geo price for a quick adjustment.
That said - it's a gamble I knowingly and willingly take... and, I wouldn't take my car anywhere else for tyres and geo. Thankfully, living in Aylesbury much of the time, I can get over to Chesham no worries at all... but even before I did, I'd always make the 180 mile round trip.
Long story short - WIM still get my vote :y
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Agree with the above.
Both times I went back Tony accepted it wasn't right and was keen to correct it. The likes of kwik fit and ETS would have fobbed me off for sure.
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It seems to be a common problem though.Iirc there have been quite a few mentions of steering wheel not pointing straight ahead on here after a visit to WIM ?
its a common problem in all geometry shops.. one man need to climb and hold the steering or use a fixing apparatus which they generally forgot..
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Not surprised. there's so much compliance in the front bushes that a basic roll backward and then forward creates a different reading every time. Polys make a big improvement.
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It seems to be a common problem though.Iirc there have been quite a few mentions of steering wheel not pointing straight ahead on here after a visit to WIM ?
its a common problem in all geometry shops.. one man need to climb and hold the steering or use a fixing apparatus which they generally forgot..
I can assure you that WIM always use clamps for the wheel.
Other factors are involved which can and do affect things - although the front wheels are on linear slide plates, there will be some friction. And the amount of force going into seized track rods....
I always WD40 (on several days leading up to) and plusgas (day before) mine, maybe this is why rarely suffers off centre wheel - well,, until its first launch, anyway :-[
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I have been watching this thread with obvious interest wondering when to intervene..... The steering position is the only human intervention the Hunter machine cannot police since it's only interest is the chassis not the cosmetic position of the steering wheel.
Nevertheless us driver are interested in the steering wheel position ( rightly so ) so what's going wrong? The steering box and satellite components have what can be a lot of collective play. No one part would be worn out, just worn, which is the realm most of our cars live in for most of their life. Once the chassis is set the steering position needs to be established in the center of the play and it's here it can go wrong.
Many times i ask the owner to confirm the steering position and still in a driven state the position can be off. It's not good for the owner, me or the ramp time to have a complaint and i strive to get the steering position finalized first time but the nature of the best sometimes defeats me. In an ideal world there wouldn't be any play in the steering box or satellite components but it's not an ideal world. All i can say to those who have made deliberate attempts to use us is i'm sorry if you have been let down, it's not due to poor workmanship or a flippant attitude toward the calibration.
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WIM - I know we have privately discussed this, but would it be beneficial to have engine running when doing front toe, to remove some steering box play?
Worth experimenting with, at least?
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Feel free to use me as test, within next month or so I'll be down in the 2.2 for a tune up :y
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Already tried this on my car during the second and third attempts. 2nd attempt was unsuccessful but 3rd time lucky.
Also Tony mentioned the car electronics causes the readings to fluctuate. Probably not enough for the readings to be incorrect though
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Guess where TBE is right now?
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Guess where TBE is right now?
Getting those shit tyres replaced? ::)
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They can't be that bad, that they warrant replacing after a couple of months. Surely they are good enough for TheGirl, unless her name is Susie Wolff
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They can't be that bad, that they warrant replacing after a couple of months. Surely they are good enough for TheGirl, unless her name is Susie Wolff
Replacement is being seriously considered, they are THAT bad :(
But not this weekend.
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Re engine running, we tried that several times.
On my old car, talking purely about the cosmetic centred steering wheel, and not pulling oddness, the deciding factor was sorting the rear track rod adjustment, as the rear was being steered out of line from the rest of the car. A slight crab, in effect.
Heat those bloody rear track rods. :y
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I've always left with thrust angle at 0 or 0'01, possibly why I never seem to have trouble with offcentre steering.
There are benefits to a daily dose of WD40 in the week leading up to calibration ;)
That said, TBE needed an awful lot of heat yesterday. I thought we were beaten....
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I wouldnt mind a slightly off steering wheel as long as the car went in a straight line ::)
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And I must add Tony has been really helpful in trying to get mine sorted :y
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still not sorted?
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No :D I
had it adjusted earlier today while they had it in doing the tyre (not WIM)(simply tyres Aylesbury)
It seems better and doesn't drift as much but still does slightly they said they put it back to VX settings they have they did have two goes at it they checked it this morning aftervI said it was worse than before and it had moved so not sure what's going on there I will keep an eye on it and watch out for tyre wear :y
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No :D I
had it adjusted earlier today while they had it in doing the tyre (not WIM)(simply tyres Aylesbury)
It seems better and doesn't drift as much but still does slightly they said they put it back to VX settings they have they did have two goes at it they checked it this morning aftervI said it was worse than before and it had moved so not sure what's going on there I will keep an eye on it and watch out for tyre wear :y
They're far too inaccurate for a decent set up ;)
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I know but it does seem to go in a straight line almost now ::)
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never had tramlining in 15 years of driving a mig from new on I guess 8 or 9 sets of tyres. Including some non spec tyres (225/45R16) and failure of the speed sensitive power steering. Why is it so common here?