Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: tunnie on 09 February 2013, 20:38:06

Title: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 09 February 2013, 20:38:06
Out of interest just because I'm wondering, can a failed or broken lifter on a 3.2, only create a noise when hot?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: symes on 09 February 2013, 20:46:43
 normally if lifter fubar its continues from start- But being a miggy anything is possible :y
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: omega3000 on 09 February 2013, 21:29:23
Mine did it from cold , slightly less noisy when warm but still noticeable  :(
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 09 February 2013, 21:39:25
It's other way around on the 3.2, sounds fine cold.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Kevin Wood on 09 February 2013, 22:30:12
Oil pressure will be lower once engine is warm. If it's too low the lifters might start rattling.

Lifters tend to be slow to fill from cold or collapse completely.

Haven't we been here before and measured the oil pressure?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 09 February 2013, 22:33:52
Oil pressure will be lower once engine is warm. If it's too low the lifters might start rattling.

Lifters tend to be slow to fill from cold or collapse completely.

Haven't we been here before and measured the oil pressure?

Yup, was inconclusive though. I know it's been agreed its fine to just live with it, but it bugs me :(

Back to oil pressure switch, was hoping things might have changed and become an easy fix  ::)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Kevin Wood on 09 February 2013, 22:36:14
How low was the oil pressure? Can't remember.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: albitz on 09 February 2013, 22:39:21
If you need lifters ? theres a set of 2.6 lifters on ebay at the moment,which I think would be the same ?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 09 February 2013, 22:40:10
How low was the oil pressure? Can't remember.

20 PSI from when I did the tests:

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=99668.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=99668.0)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Andy H on 09 February 2013, 22:42:38
Back to oil pressure switch, was hoping things might have changed and become an easy fix  ::)
Oil pressure switch is a 5 minute job unless someone has damaged the thread or split the oil pump casting.

Swapping the oil pump involves removing the front pulley which is held by a bolt done up to 250 ft/lb. Easy with a 5 foot long scaffold pole & something to prevent the flywheel from turning  ::)

Seem to recall some talk of mother T's car having a split in the casting  :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 09 February 2013, 22:53:46
Bah sorry got my terminology wrong, I meant oil pressure release valve thing, the one were the belt has to come off. Had the pressure switch out easy to check pressure :)

MotherTs never had a split in the casting? Her V6 goes well
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Kevin Wood on 09 February 2013, 22:54:55
I think he means pressure relief valve. ;)

TBH, 20 PSI ought to be OK. If you want a comparison with another 3.2 (with 142k on it) I'd be happy to check mine, if the gauge is still around?

It sounded like pretty much all of the lifters were rattling to me, which kind of rules out a faulty one in my mind. Might be worth getting a replacement set, refurbing them and just fitting them to be done with it?

Only other thing that occurs to me is that maybe it has had the heads swapped in the past and the combination of lifters, T vents and oil pump is not one that work properly? IIRC, it looks fairly original, though, and unlikely that a 3.2 will have had major surgery at 140k. :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 10 February 2013, 08:21:28
I think he means pressure relief valve. ;)

TBH, 20 PSI ought to be OK. If you want a comparison with another 3.2 (with 142k on it) I'd be happy to check mine, if the gauge is still around?

It sounded like pretty much all of the lifters were rattling to me, which kind of rules out a faulty one in my mind. Might be worth getting a replacement set, refurbing them and just fitting them to be done with it?

Only other thing that occurs to me is that maybe it has had the heads swapped in the past and the combination of lifters, T vents and oil pump is not one that work properly? IIRC, it looks fairly original, though, and unlikely that a 3.2 will have had major surgery at 140k. :-\

Gauge is I think in same place in the garage, will check  :)

Will keep an eye out in breakers section, for a set of lifters. It all looks original & unmolested, the NCDC unit still had its warranty sticker on it  :o

As pressure is decent enough, also never really heard of low pressure issues with any of the V6's - Maybe a set of lifters will sort it out  :)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 10 February 2013, 08:32:28
I can't remember exactly what work I did on that engine, plugs and belt I think, but in the corse of doing so, it was fairly obvious some gorilla had been in there before, coil PACs looked like they'd been removed with a hammer and chisel, and almost every plastic clip and fixing broken off.

But did I see a bolt missing on one of the heat shields? Or was that on another car? :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 10 February 2013, 08:38:34
If you need lifters ? theres a set of 2.6 lifters on ebay at the moment,which I think would be the same ?

Could not see them?

Think all later V6's had same lifters?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 10 February 2013, 08:39:34
I can't remember exactly what work I did on that engine, plugs and belt I think, but in the corse of doing so, it was fairly obvious some gorilla had been in there before, coil PACs looked like they'd been removed with a hammer and chisel, and almost every plastic clip and fixing broken off.

But did I see a bolt missing on one of the heat shields? Or was that on another car? :-\

Can see heat shield making the noise it does though?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 10 February 2013, 08:54:14
I can't remember exactly what work I did on that engine, plugs and belt I think, but in the corse of doing so, it was fairly obvious some gorilla had been in there before, coil PACs looked like they'd been removed with a hammer and chisel, and almost every plastic clip and fixing broken off.

But did I see a bolt missing on one of the heat shields? Or was that on another car? :-\

Can see heat shield making the noise it does though?
No, if a bolt is missing, someone has removed it. Why would someone remove a heat shield bolt?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 10 February 2013, 09:08:31
Don't know, unless as Kevin suggested its had new heads  ???  :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 10 February 2013, 09:16:15
Don't know, unless as Kevin suggested its had new heads  ???  :-\
Indeed. Or it's had head work of some sort at least.

Or...my memory is shite and I'm talking rubbish, which is far more likely tbh. ;D
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Andy H on 10 February 2013, 09:30:32
Bah sorry got my terminology wrong, I meant oil pressure release valve thing, the one were the belt has to come off. Had the pressure switch out easy to check pressure :)

MotherTs never had a split in the casting? Her V6 goes well
Good news :y (I meant the oil pump casting BTW....) (& I thought we were discussing the 3.2 that used to be MotherT's :-\)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 10 February 2013, 09:38:48
Bah sorry got my terminology wrong, I meant oil pressure release valve thing, the one were the belt has to come off. Had the pressure switch out easy to check pressure :)

MotherTs never had a split in the casting? Her V6 goes well
Good news :y (I meant the oil pump casting BTW....) (& I thought we were discussing the 3.2 that used to be MotherT's :-\)

She's never had a 3.2, always 3.0 Elite Estate.

I only got the 3.2 late last year as it was a good opportunity at the time  :)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: TheBoy on 10 February 2013, 11:23:43
NCDC unit still had its warranty sticker on it  :o
Well, I know for a fact that I've been in there, as some useless student was too tight to buy a carpass.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: TheBoy on 10 February 2013, 11:25:50
I thought the pressure gardually dropped to "quite low"? But then, not much lower than my 3.0 (there was a good reason we didn't check my 3.2, which eludes me now).

I think gauge is in my garage?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 10 February 2013, 11:35:22
NCDC unit still had its warranty sticker on it  :o
Well, I know for a fact that I've been in there, as some useless student was too tight to buy a carpass.

Why do I need to buy one when you can "patch" it  :D

I thought the pressure gardually dropped to "quite low"? But then, not much lower than my 3.0 (there was a good reason we didn't check my 3.2, which eludes me now).

I think gauge is in my garage?

Actually might be right there
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 10 February 2013, 11:50:58
Easy enough to check which T-Vents are fitted just by popping a camcover off .... suggest the drivers side one for an initial look... :y
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: humbucker on 11 February 2013, 21:34:59
You can 'recondition' your lifters by soaking them in petrol or similar to break down the build up of hard oil/carbon in them and then squeeze out the old oil into new. Then you can prime them with new oil. Knackered lifters won't give you any play in the centre, so you can detect faulty ones straight away. I used this method to pick out the dodgy ones in my Cav 2.5 and there was/is absolutely no tapping on that engine at all now (cold or hot!). I've got a complete set of brand new OE lifters for my 3.2 rebuild so hopefully they'll see my engine to a quiet purr!  ;D
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 12 February 2013, 00:34:46
Did you have a hot only issue then?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: humbucker on 12 February 2013, 09:17:14
No, to be honest I've only ever known of them to tap on startup. It's a common occurrence on older Vauxhalls, particularly the Redtop C20XE and C20LET engines, but unusual to hear of the problem manifesting itself once the car is up to temperature.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: 2woody on 13 February 2013, 22:22:36
I've got a fair few lifters - do you want a slack handful Tunnie ?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: terencen on 15 February 2013, 22:53:03
has anyone tried valve lifter cleaner in these engines? I've had great results in other engines.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: albitz on 15 February 2013, 22:54:33
Yes.It very often works well,but iirc it hasnt in this case. :y
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 16 February 2013, 00:40:24
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Webby the Bear on 16 February 2013, 00:42:41
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

if it helps anyone in anyway i can check oil pressures on Autodata on monday to compare against what haynes says?  :y
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 16 February 2013, 00:55:22
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

if it helps anyone in anyway i can check oil pressures on Autodata on monday to compare against what haynes says?  :y
Couldn't hurt Webby. :y

Ime the figures involve a range between idle and a set rpm, say 2000rpm os similar.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 16 February 2013, 00:56:04
Although tis should have all the info I would have thought...? :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: Webby the Bear on 16 February 2013, 00:56:48
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

if it helps anyone in anyway i can check oil pressures on Autodata on monday to compare against what haynes says?  :y
Couldn't hurt Webby. :y

Ime the figures involve a range between idle and a set rpm, say 2000rpm os similar.

yep pretty sure theres two figures at idle and at xRPM. I'll check monday  :y
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 16 February 2013, 09:38:23
I've got a fair few lifters - do you want a slack handful Tunnie ?

Thats very kind, think I'll take you up on that  :y

Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

Guess all depends on the gauge, but it was around this. When revv'ed the pressure rose as expected. Although it did drop just under 20 a couple of times. Not massively different to Rusty bullet or TBE.

Given amount of V6's around, we've never really seen anything like this before. I'm verging back to lifters, even more so if you say it may have had head work Chris  :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tigers_gonads on 16 February 2013, 09:54:29
I've got a 1999 ish 3lt lump which runs quite as a mouse which I will be stripping next month.
Tappets came from and fitting by DLK and made a hell of a difference  :y
Give us a shout next month if your interested and we will sort something out  :)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 16 February 2013, 09:57:29
I've got a 1999 ish 3lt lump which runs quite as a mouse which I will be stripping next month.
Tappets came from and fitting by DLK and made a hell of a difference  :y
Give us a shout next month if your interested and we will sort something out  :)

Wow 2 offers of lifters.  :)

Love this place  :y

PM Inbound  :y

Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: henryd on 16 February 2013, 10:39:39
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

if it helps anyone in anyway i can check oil pressures on Autodata on monday to compare against what haynes says?  :y
Couldn't hurt Webby. :y

Ime the figures involve a range between idle and a set rpm, say 2000rpm os similar.

yep pretty sure theres two figures at idle and at xRPM. I'll check monday  :y

Autodata 1.0 bar @690 rpm :y
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 16 February 2013, 10:59:45
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

if it helps anyone in anyway i can check oil pressures on Autodata on monday to compare against what haynes says?  :y
Couldn't hurt Webby. :y

Ime the figures involve a range between idle and a set rpm, say 2000rpm os similar.

yep pretty sure theres two figures at idle and at xRPM. I'll check monday  :y

Autodata 1.0 bar @690 rpm :y

Quick Google suggest: 1.0 bar = 14.50 PSI.

So mines above that, so pressure is fine.  :)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: henryd on 16 February 2013, 11:03:27
Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

if it helps anyone in anyway i can check oil pressures on Autodata on monday to compare against what haynes says?  :y
Couldn't hurt Webby. :y

Ime the figures involve a range between idle and a set rpm, say 2000rpm os similar.

yep pretty sure theres two figures at idle and at xRPM. I'll check monday  :y

Autodata 1.0 bar @690 rpm :y

Quick Google suggest: 1.0 bar = 14.50 PSI.

So mines above that, so pressure is fine.  :)

Thats the only pressure that A/data lists for that engine so if you are above that at idle it should be ok
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 16 February 2013, 11:15:17
Yeah never went that low, always thought if that was issue engine would have gone bang by now  :)
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 16 February 2013, 11:20:19
I've got a fair few lifters - do you want a slack handful Tunnie ?

Thats very kind, think I'll take you up on that  :y

Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

Guess all depends on the gauge, but it was around this. When revv'ed the pressure rose as expected. Although it did drop just under 20 a couple of times. Not massively different to Rusty bullet or TBE.

Given amount of V6's around, we've never really seen anything like this before. I'm verging back to lifters, even more so if you say it may have had head work Chris  :-\
I'm hoping you may have looked to see if I'm even talking about the right cars first...? It's a big assumption...etc.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 16 February 2013, 11:23:11
I've got a fair few lifters - do you want a slack handful Tunnie ?

Thats very kind, think I'll take you up on that  :y

Book of lies;
Minimum permissible oil pressure at idle speed, with engine
at operating temperature (oil temperature of at least 80°C) . . . . . . . .1.5 bar (22 psi)

...?

Guess all depends on the gauge, but it was around this. When revv'ed the pressure rose as expected. Although it did drop just under 20 a couple of times. Not massively different to Rusty bullet or TBE.

Given amount of V6's around, we've never really seen anything like this before. I'm verging back to lifters, even more so if you say it may have had head work Chris  :-\
I'm hoping you may have looked to see if I'm even talking about the right cars first...? It's a big assumption...etc.

Could not see any reference to another engine/car?  :-\
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: feeutfo on 16 February 2013, 11:49:41
I'm working from memory, I've had a few omegas.

Look under the bonnet, see if a heat shield bolt is missing on YOUR 3.2.
Title: Re: A failed lifter
Post by: tunnie on 16 February 2013, 11:50:42
I'll look on Monday when I'm back  :y