Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: bigpaul on 07 April 2013, 09:29:33
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Hi Guys its been a while :(
so the car is high reving like a bitch = 2.6 v6 on X plate.
Stop at lights/roundabout/give way 2000 revs some times drops if i dip the clutch, rev it some more, turn the steering wheel.
It does on a run as well but probably not so noticeable but there for sure.
Speak to my mate the spanner manner who knows someone to plug in and take a look.
Lots of jargon talk but doesnt seem to be sure great advice cost £40 >:(
I can sit in the car rev the pedal and up she shoots to 2000 nowif i dont attempt something it may be 10 minutes plus before she brings down the revs herself.
Anyway the word throttle body has come up so i bought one off ebay about £35 but being a complete idiot took parts off it to try and rectify this problem so the result you ask ?
well i reduced the revs and time of sticking still doing it but not as much at this point i played some more changed the motors over and BANG !!! problem back again.
So theres the background question is does this problem seem to you to be the throttle body control etc because i was considering buying another and fitting it complete this time.
Appreciate any help and advice you can offer
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Do the pedal trick to check for codes and report back with your findings...link in my sig.
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yeah the codes are 170/173 which suggest the lambada sensors but this has been dismissed by the guys at the garage now to be fair they have a good rep and one runs an omega but once they discounted the obvious and saw they were dealing with a 2.6 they were struggling.
the suggestion was there are 2 control links to the rev situation one throttle body which he said was very expensive ? not on ebay and one other that just confused me
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Actually Fuel trim codes, as opposed to Lambda codes...
P0170 Fuel trim malfunction (Bank 1)
P0173 Fuel trim malfunction (Bank 2)
As a stab in the dark...How does it run if you unplug the MAF?
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Did the diags bloke look at any live data, or just codes?
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reading your history...MAF has been mentioned in the past...
Did / Have you ever changed it? Is yours genuine / bosch / chinese?
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well he took it off me for the day so i am presuming he did all necessary checks he reset the engine management light a few times but i told him that wasnt it which he agreed
he was 70% confident it was linked to the throttle body and like i said it did run a bit better when i moved parts obviously i made an error in judgement in not doing a proper job as apposed to moving bits from one to the other.
im a bit of a techniphobe can you tell me more about the MAF what it does etc and how this will help me
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90475.0
Will give more insight into fuel trims
and
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90447.0
more into the MAF
Try unplugging the MAF and see what happens... Just find it, as below, and unplug the connector, the other one nearby is for the air temperature, leave that one alone. Check ebay for MAF pics if you want to double check the connector your removing is the right one.
The MAF sensor is easy to find, it is normaly located in between the airfilter housing and the throttle. In teh case of the V6 it is just below the first 90 deg bend as the pipe exits the air filter. The devcie it self is a tube of betwen 50 and 150mm in length (later ones are smaller i.e. on the 2.2)
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have you checked its not something simple like sticking throttle spindle?-only a guess though mate TBH
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ok i see MAF mentioned alot soi will have to see if i can identify it being an idiot im only going to unplug the wrong bit.
The spindles is an interesting thought when i dismantled the throttle housing in idiot mode I noticed the spindle passed over tiny flaps which all seemed crincled on the one in the car and not on the replacement one of course by thet time i had ruined everything
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have you checked its not something simple like sticking throttle spindle?-only a guess though mate TBH
2.6 should have a code for that :-\
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codes are as before always the same 170 and 173 fuel trims
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here's a pic of the maf :)
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1248799817/0
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the codes wont go if you unplug the maf....but how does it run?
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have you checked its not something simple like sticking throttle spindle?-only a guess though mate TBH
2.6 should have a code for that :-\
Codes for 2.6 are here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90594.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90594.0)
Looks like P1500, P1523 or P1526 would come up if the throttle was sticking so my advice is leave well alone and follow Jimbobs excellent instructions :y
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cant do anything until tonight stuck at work :(
So my understanding is if it runs better with MAF unplugged thats what is faulty is that right ?
when i fooled with the throttle control body and it ran better theres no connection you think ?
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Im not saying it isnt the throttle body, but there are other things it could be.
Throttle body issues are rare.
2.6 / 3.2 MAF issues are quite common, (far more so than any other omega) and VERY easy to rule in / out so IMHO a good easy starting point on any fueling related issue. When removed, they run a default map, so although less economical for a bit, it wont hurt the car and will remove any dodgy values its producing from the equation. If its no better, plug it back in and carry on diagnosis from another step.
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OK great i will give it a go somebody was kind enough to give me a link to the MAF position in the engine as a picture but is from the old site so not sure if its the 2.6 or not really worried about pulling out the wrong connector
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OK great i will give it a go somebody was kind enough to give me a link to the MAF position in the engine as a picture but is from the old site so not sure if its the 2.6 or not really worried about pulling out the wrong connector
That pic is good enough, you shouldnt get it wrong...Maf as shown, connector may face any direction as its rotatable, but as shown, just down from airbox, should be between 2 big jubilee clips about 6 inches apart.
other connector on the elbow there is the air temp sensor :y
End of the day, whatever you unplug...if its makes driving difficult, just stop and plug it back in :y
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ok many thanks i will take a look tonight :y
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Had a similar fault on son's 2.0 petrol Omega. He claimed it was dangerous. He brought it back. I checked throttle box, spindle, cable, all seemed OK. Reassembled, fault gone. Drove for two days, then fault returned. I suspected groove worn in throttle cable outer - car is high mileage. So I removed scuttle and rotated throttle cable outer 180 degrees, Fault cured.
Worth a try.
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If only a 2.6 had a cable to rotate ;)
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I have seen a 2.6 with exactly these symptoms, and it was the MAF sensor. :-\
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OK guys did as instructed disconnected the MAF and ran engine.
You guessed it fault still there :'( engine reving as usual to 2000 revs without coming down unless I persuade it.
Went back to garage but no real help other than to say all leaks etc checked for.
Think I may have to try the throttle body again this time with a complete exchange just bought a Bosch one on ebay hopefully will do the trick
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Just thought-check small vac pipe under throttles maybe blocked-you have to undo top plenum first though -while there you can check seals-seems more like air leak to me-MAF would make it run erratic/stop not rev high IMHO :y
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ok guys changed throttle body complete fault still there :'(
soon as the engine gets warm straight up to 2000 revs
now at the far end of the engine there is a small rounded pot name unknown to me its attached by a metal bracket and the throttle runs through it i have pics but cant work out how to post them here ?
anyway it appears to have a delayed reaction when you operate accelerator can anyone help me with what it is ? what it does ? show me how to add pics here
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You need to get it to a code reader that'll give you live data, IMHO.
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any way i canpost pics on here to show you what im trying to identify ???
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any way i canpost pics on here to show you what im trying to identify ???
Look here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=52309.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=52309.0)
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Booked in to another garage on Monday hopefully they will be able to help seems im seeing faults where ever i look now so i might as well post pics of the whole engine ;D
Has been another suggestion that it could be linked to the cruise control despite the fact that i have never used it ? might be worth having a go at disconnecting it if i can work it out
Short of that its the local dealership :( probably charge more than the cars worth :-\
wouldnt be amazing if it turned out to be the lambarda sensors after all this
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Hi.
just thought i would mention that i had a very similar reving prob on my old senator and that was the coolant sensor for the ecu.
Prob nothing to do with yours but worth a mention.
Jay
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BTW
this coolant sensor was 1 of 2. 1 did the dash gauge and 1 did the temp sensor for the ecu to say it was warm.
what you are experiencing is exactly what i had. ok when cold but over reving or idling at 2000rpm when warm.
Might be a good idea to see if there are 2 sensors.
hope you get it sorted soon.
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latest update for all those following :-
So I took it too the local Vauxhall dealership £70 for a diagnostic the idea being that their system being specifically for Vauxhall and not generic.
Their findings were that they traced it to the throttle body and it needed to be replaced at a cost of £650 not just that it might not be the full problem but they couldnt go any further until it was replaced what a waste of time and money.
I told them that I had already replaced it twice but they said not with a new one and the old part I had purchased might be faulty although they had taken it apart and cleaned it at no extra cost and could find nothing wrong. ???
My local garage had suggested the throttle sensors but Vauxhall didnt think so but kept saying the 2.6 v6 had often caused them problems. :o
I have noticed different numbers on the various throttle bodies I have used 8, 10, 12 so maybe it has to be in sync with the car but can find nothing to support that.
I still have the original so maybe put it back on but replace the faulty readers who knows :(
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Get yourself to High Wycombe tomorrow High Wycombe meet confirmation (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112960.0).
If The Boy (The Fat Shadow) or Kevin Wood are there then they should be able to put you right. (might be worth sending each a PM first to check.......)
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latest update for all those following :-
So I took it too the local Vauxhall dealership £70 for a diagnostic the idea being that their system being specifically for Vauxhall and not generic.
Their findings were that they traced it to the throttle body and it needed to be replaced at a cost of £650 not just that it might not be the full problem but they couldnt go any further until it was replaced what a waste of time and money.
I told them that I had already replaced it twice but they said not with a new one and the old part I had purchased might be faulty although they had taken it apart and cleaned it at no extra cost and could find nothing wrong. ???
My local garage had suggested the throttle sensors but Vauxhall didnt think so but kept saying the 2.6 v6 had often caused them problems. :o
I have noticed different numbers on the various throttle bodies I have used 8, 10, 12 so maybe it has to be in sync with the car but can find nothing to support that.
I still have the original so maybe put it back on but replace the faulty readers who knows :(
Sorry, but you took it to Skurrays :o
I took my 2.2 there, when it was under warranty.....8 times!!! and they couldnt diagnose a faulty cam sensor.....I wouldnt trust them to diagnose a fault on a bicycle! >:(
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Get yourself to High Wycombe tomorrow High Wycombe meet confirmation (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=112960.0).
If The Boy (The Fat Shadow) or Kevin Wood are there then they should be able to put you right. (might be worth sending each a PM first to check.......)
Good suggestion :y
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Wish I could guys but stuck at work no such thing as bank holidays for me :'(
I suppose if im honest what got to me is that a local garage that my mate has used for many years not cheap but reasonable said they thought it was the throttle sensors 2 hour job £50 an hour plus parts but no guarantee that it was the problem until they took it apart :( they suggested go to the dealership for a more accurate diagnostic and it hasnt helped at all >:(
I asked the dealership about the throttle sensors they said the throttle body had to be changed before they could progress further, I dont really think they wanted the job.
I have started to give up hope :-\
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Just had a possible break through but need your thoughts guys
Could this be linked to the throttle position sensor / potentiometer ?
I know its connected to the throttle body somewhere but cant find it for looking
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Just had a possible break through but need your thoughts guys
Could this be linked to the throttle position sensor / potentiometer ?
I know its connected to the throttle body somewhere but cant find it for looking
Why? You've changed the throttle body and it made no difference?
The problem you have is that you haven't found someone who can diagnose it properly. The clue is in the fault codes. The throttle body and position sensors are very closely monitored in drive-by-wire systems, and yet there are no codes indicating a problem here.
You do have fuel trim errors on both banks. I'm not sure why these have been discounted but they are telling you something important. Either there is a fuel metering problem common to both banks (MAF most likely candidate here) or you have an intake air leak that's throwing the fuel trims out. I think you need to get it to a code reader that can do live data and post up the values you see here. Particularly interesting would be MAF output, lambda sensor activity and fuel trims. Please don't spend any money bases on the advice you've received from the garages so far as they are guessing, IMHO.
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This is so frustrating I mean how can a Vauxhall dealership not know iys driving me mad.
The live reading were posted by Entwood way back when in November 2011 when we first talked about the engine managment light coming on.
At the time the MAF was suggested but I tested this recently by unplugging it as advised the first time i did it there was no change engine ran from cold to 80 as normal then straight up to 2000revs.
The second time I did it it went up to 3000revs after reachong 80 my understanding was that if the car ran better with the MAF unplugged than this was the problem if it didnt then the problem was somewhere else.
So there we are not any further forward and no more money to spend :'(
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wonder if it is a wiring fault on the tps side of things and thats why nothing improves the situation when parts are swapped over
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certainly a possibilty I suppose would help if I could locate the TPS ;D
another suggestion was the accelarator Potentiometer cant find that either ;D
At the back of the engine there appears to be a small pot operating on a vacuum that mirrors one on the front there is a small metal rod that goes in when you use the accelarator but then appears to stick before coming back out.
Interesting enough the rev counter is acting in the same way when driving or ticking over it sticks as you accelarate sometimes it sticks then brings the tick over down from its high reving
Sorry I only have laymans terms for you ;D
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This is so frustrating I mean how can a Vauxhall dealership not know iys driving me mad.
Totally agree :( but unfortunately that is normal (though there must be some good ones somewhere :-\
The live reading were posted by Entwood way back when in November 2011 when we first talked about the engine managment light coming on.
At the time the MAF was suggested but I tested this recently by unplugging it as advised the first time i did it there was no change engine ran from cold to 80 as normal then straight up to 2000revs.Chances are that the ECU has been given duff information for so long that it has learned bad habits. Someone who knows how to use Tech II should be able to determine quite quickly where the problem lies.
The second time I did it it went up to 3000revs after reachong 80 my understanding was that if the car ran better with the MAF unplugged than this was the problem if it didnt then the problem was somewhere else.Idle getting faster and faster as the engine warms up normally points a to an air leak. Again a half decent Tech II operator should quickly be able to see how much throttle the ECU calling for. If the the ECU isn't calling for throttle then you have an air leak
So there we are not any further forward and no more money to spend :'(
Before you spend any more money take the inlet plenum off and check that the rubber seals are intact. Put it back together but try running with the 1/2" vacuum hose to the brake servo blocked off.
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certainly a possibilty I suppose would help if I could locate the TPS ;D DBW has a potentiometer (pot) on the accelerator pedal to tell the ECU what you want and another potentiometer in the throttle body to determine where the actual throttle is. The motor in the throttle body then drives the throttle until the value from the pot matches the value the ECU is asking for. I don't know which pot is the TPSor whether they are both called TPS :-\
another suggestion was the accelarator Potentiometer cant find that either ;D top of the accelerator pedal
At the back of the engine there appears to be a small pot operating on a vacuum that mirrors one on the front there is a small metal rod that goes in when you use the accelarator but then appears to stick before coming back out.This isn't a pot, it is a vacuum operated servo that opens a flap in the inlet manifold at high RPM
Interesting enough the rev counter is acting in the same way when driving or ticking over it sticks as you accelarate sometimes it sticks then brings the tick over down from its high reving
Sorry I only have laymans terms for you ;D
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The drive-by-wire system actually has two independent position sensors on the pedal and two on the throttle itself. This allows it to determine if any of them is reading erroneously whereby it will drop into a limp mode which gives you very little throttle and it raises the appropriate fault codes. The fact that you don't have any codes related to the DBW system makes me think it's very unlikely that there's a fault in that area.