Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: chrisgixer on 07 July 2013, 10:48:25
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Kitchen tap, will not flow hot water.
The system runs with a pump in the loft to boost pressure for the shower mostly, but its also been used to boost everything that's not mains fed. As the water flow is so poor.
So, the kitchen tap runs mains pressure on cold, and flows fine, as mains pressure is good. Hot however, refuses to give the initial flow the pump needs to see to strike up.
Tap is mono block with two 10mm bore pipes within. The plumber says its the tap, causing it due to the reduction in pipe size and lack of initial pressure from upstairs hot tank.
We've been cheating it to work by turning on the kitchen hot tap, then turning on the downstairs cold to get the pump to chime in. Once pump is running, the already open hot tap then flows.
How can we get the hot tap to flow normally?
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You need to move your storage tank onto the roof. :)
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
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It sounds like the tap needs to be on the pump's cold and not the mains. The pump needs to see both flows to start
hth
P
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Sounds like air in the system to me, normally got rid of by opening downstair tap, opening an upstairs one nearest the tank that works then blocking it with a towel or something to force the air out to the others.
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Chris, where is your pump in relation to your cold water tank ?
Pump needs to be a minimum of 1 metre below lowest point of the cold water tank . Usual set up IMO is cold tank on a stand in the loft & pump in bottom off airing cupboard . That should give a gravity head of 2.5 -3 metres which should work fine :-\
Gravity hot water is dependant on the height of the cold header tank in the loft . The "head" between the hot tank & the cold tank is the critical factor . As long as the cold tank is in the loft , you can have the hot cylinder on the ground floor & hot water will still flow well to the upstairs hot taps provided they are at least a meter or below the cold header tank . .A pumped Shower hot should be fed off of a "surrey flange" on the hot water outlet of hot tank, rest of hot water to house should be direct from outlet of hot tank so should not be pumped :-\
Wot sort of plumber you using / . . . he sounds a bit " unsure" of himself ::) ::)
HTH :y
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If a recent issue that was previously fine, then I suspect the flow switch on the pump is the culprit :-\
Question is either if it is partially blocked or failing :-\ How old is the set up?
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You need to move your storage tank onto the roof. :)
Have wondered about that, hot water tank is on the landing. Cold water tank is in the loft.
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
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It sounds like the tap needs to be on the pump's cold and not the mains. The pump needs to see both flows to start
hth
P
Tap cold is on mains. Works fine. High pressure.
Tap hot is on pump from water tank on landing. The drop is barely a meter from the foot of the tank.
There is another hot tap in the downstairs loo. This runs ok, although that tap is furred up with lack of use. But it does flow. Just.
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Sounds like air in the system to me, normally got rid of by opening downstair tap, opening an upstairs one nearest the tank that works then blocking it with a towel or something to force the air out to the others.
It does splutter occasionally.
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Chris, where is your pump in relation to your cold water tank ?
Pump needs to be a minimum of 1 metre below lowest point of the cold water tank . Usual set up IMO is cold tank on a stand in the loft & pump in bottom off airing cupboard . That should give a gravity head of 2.5 -3 metres which should work fine :-\
Gravity hot water is dependant on the height of the cold header tank in the loft . The "head" between the hot tank & the cold tank is the critical factor . As long as the cold tank is in the loft , you can have the hot cylinder on the ground floor & hot water will still flow well to the upstairs hot taps provided they are at least a meter or below the cold header tank . .A pumped Shower hot should be fed off of a "surrey flange" on the hot water outlet of hot tank, rest of hot water to house should be direct from outlet of hot tank so should not be pumped :-\
Wot sort of plumber you using / . . . he sounds a bit " unsure" of himself ::) ::)
HTH :y
He is a heating engineer. He installed the new boiler. And fitted a new central heating system in in a friends house. Seems knowledgable generally, if you can get hold of the bugger. Although he did ask advice on the tap itself, and it was then suggested to change the tap, as mono blocks are "renowned for it" he said.
May be, but there must be away round it surely...?
I'm tempted to fit a hose from the mains onto the the tap and blast vold water up it to clear any sir lock, but I'm not sure that's wise on a hot tap?
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If a recent issue that was previously fine, then I suspect the flow switch on the pump is the culprit :-\
Question is either if it is partially blocked or failing :-\ How old is the set up?
Problem has been present since that tap was installed. But now we have the pump fitted it refuses to flow at all until the pump is activated by the turning on another tap elsewhere in the house.
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Here's the tap itself
http://www.tap-spares.com/sections.asp?id=48&sortit=3&pg=2
And here
http://www.howdens.com/media/library/pdf/108.pdf
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Absolute NO No in my book . . . .you should never use a pump on a combi boiler :o :o
PM sent Chris
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What are you calling the hot water tank
The copper cylinder?
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You need to move your storage tank onto the roof. :)
Have wondered about that, hot water tank is on the landing. Cold water tank is in the loft.
We could extend into the loft for the sake of a tap, as a more sensible option though. :)
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What are you calling the hot water tank
The copper cylinder?
We call ours John.
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Chris, where is your pump in relation to your cold water tank ?
Pump needs to be a minimum of 1 metre below lowest point of the cold water tank . Usual set up IMO is cold tank on a stand in the loft & pump in bottom off airing cupboard . That should give a gravity head of 2.5 -3 metres which should work fine :-\
Gravity hot water is dependant on the height of the cold header tank in the loft . The "head" between the hot tank & the cold tank is the critical factor . As long as the cold tank is in the loft , you can have the hot cylinder on the ground floor & hot water will still flow well to the upstairs hot taps provided they are at least a meter or below the cold header tank . .A pumped Shower hot should be fed off of a "surrey flange" on the hot water outlet of hot tank, rest of hot water to house should be direct from outlet of hot tank so should not be pumped :-\
Wot sort of plumber you using / . . . he sounds a bit " unsure" of himself ::) ::)
HTH :y
He is a heating engineer. He installed the new boiler. And fitted a new central heating system in in a friends house. Seems knowledgable generally, if you can get hold of the bugger. Although he did ask advice on the tap itself, and it was then suggested to change the tap, as mono blocks are "renowned for it" he said.
May be, but there must be away round it surely...?
I'm tempted to fit a hose from the mains onto the the tap and blast vold water up it to clear any sir lock, but I'm not sure that's wise on a hot tap?
I should add, as I've just realised, the hose won't work as there's a one way valve on that pipe anyway.
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What are you calling the hot water tank
The copper cylinder?
We call ours John.
Emersjohn. ;)
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Nice one STEMO :y
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What are you calling the hot water tank
The copper cylinder?
We call ours John.
Emersjohn. ;)
Grooooooaaaan. You daft bastard. ;D
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What are you calling the hot water tank
The copper cylinder?
We call ours John.
Emersjohn. ;)
Grooooooaaaan. You daft bastard. ;D
;D
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If a recent issue that was previously fine, then I suspect the flow switch on the pump is the culprit :-\
Question is either if it is partially blocked or failing :-\ How old is the set up?
Problem has been present since that tap was installed. But now we have the pump fitted it refuses to flow at all until the pump is activated by the turning on another tap elsewhere in the house.
Changing the tap, probably would fix the problem, but as you dont want to do that, I'd suggest having a look on the pump to see if you can increase its sensitivity, if not try another pump that is more sensitive.
I used to have 2 pumps in a bungalow I lived in. One was a 3bar pump for the shower and a 1bar pump for all of the other hot taps.
BTW the 'head' height is from the cold water tank to the ground, not to the hot water cylinder.
In the bungalow the i had the hot water tank in the loft, with the cold water tank (coffin type) just barely inches above it.
So , try the pump options IMO
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I have recently looked at this issue as many taps now require a minimum bar reading to work. They are fine when the hot water is pressure fed from the mains with a combi boiler, but you cannot get enough fall from the cold water tank for the tap work. Where I am just getting all of the stuff sorted out for fitting a new bathroom I have gone for a more expensive (compared to cheaper high pressure) low pressure taps. My en-suite shower was always low pressure, so years ago I fitted a surrey valve and cold / hot pump.
On the continent they generally have no cold tank (ours is a Victorian intermittent supply legacy) and direct mains pressure to the hot water tank. The hot water tanks are very well insulated and use an immersion heater. The one in the Ukraine also have a built in thermometer. Where we are in the EU, cheap high pressure taps are becoming more and more common.
My suggestion would be to look at pump pressure sensitivity and if this doesn't fix it then replace with a low pressure tap.
Your tap has a 0.5 bar minimum which requires a minimum 5m (16' 5" drop). If your house has a standard 8' ceiling height plus 8" first floor rafters and 6" in the loft, then you don't have enough water head height where your kitchen cabinet and sink are 3' off the ground. If the loft height allows you could mount the water tank 3' off the loft floor on stilts, but this maybe a lot of work for no improvement or alternatively suggest to SWMBO that you have the perfect solution and she can keep the mixer tap, "we will have an inset into the floor sink to get the water pressure" and then beat a hasty retreat. ::) :o ;D
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simple answer, just use a pump for a situation with negative head such as the link below
http://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander-esp80cpv-negative-head-shower-pump-with-single-impeller-2-4bar/69296
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It sounds like the tap needs to be on the pump's cold and not the mains. The pump needs to see both flows to start
hth
P
Tap cold is on mains. Works fine. High pressure.
Tap hot is on pump from water tank on landing. The drop is barely a meter from the foot of the tank.
There is another hot tap in the downstairs loo. This runs ok, although that tap is furred up with lack of use. But it does flow. Just.
Is this a mono tap and is the cold to this on the mains or pump cold
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Monoblock tap with 10mm tails and the head from a roof tank should pass enough water to get the pump going. :-\
I had a monoblock tap with 8mm tails in my last house fed by gravity. It was slow but it was usable (just).
I suspect either a fault or a blockage in the tap combined with some other problem in the existing pipework.
Because the ports are so small in a ceramic disc tap it is easy for them to get blocked with crap (either swarf already in the tap or something stirred up in your pipework.)
It is difficult to fit a pump without introducing high points where air can collect and cause airlocks, worth checking that all the air has been bled from the system.
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Absolute NO No in my book . . . .you should never use a pump on a combi boiler :o :o
PM sent Chris
totally agree with this - If it's a combi you do not need a tank or a pump everythis should run from the combi at mains pressure
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Absolute NO No in my book . . . .you should never use a pump on a combi boiler :o :o
PM sent Chris
totally agree with this - If it's a combi you do not need a tank or a pump everythis should run from the combi at mains pressure
... obvious really, tbh. The whole system upgrade has been designed around the pump improving the shower. It was then improved further by increasing the pumps use to include all non mains fed taps. Good pressure, but bit noisy.
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Absolute NO No in my book . . . .you should never use a pump on a combi boiler :o :o
PM sent Chris
totally agree with this - If it's a combi you do not need a tank or a pump everythis should run from the combi at mains pressure
... obvious really, tbh. The whole system upgrade has been designed around the pump improving the shower. It was then improved further by increasing the pumps use to include all non mains fed taps. Good pressure, but bit noisy.
But with a combi and the header tank main cold looped to the header tank out would give mains cold to all taps with mains hot from the boiler. No need for any tanks or pumps. Do not understand why the config but obviously not there to see
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I'm a plumber and I'm confused to opps lol!!!
Combi has to run on a min amount of pressure for cold mains so as it can be used for hot water,now some combi boilers can use a tank for supply to the heating instead of a filling loop at the boiler.
The hot water as your saying should be cylinder,storage tank in loft,min head required from highest hot water tap is approx 1meter,and any other taps on the hot water that are lower will have slightly higher pressure,mono block taps are not designed for use with a pump due to small bore of pipe,either 8,10,12 or 15 mm.
Also is there a non return valve fitted on the hot and a double check valve on the cold mains to tap?
Pump may not switch on due to distance from tap to pump as it needs to sense pressure being demanded,why not fit another pump with independent supply to kitchen tap instead
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I didn't see if this is a combi or not. If so I agree that a pump should not be used. :y
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Just buy another fickin tap, tight arse.
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I'm a plumber and I'm confused to opps lol!!!
Combi has to run on a min amount of pressure for cold mains so as it can be used for hot water,now some combi boilers can use a tank for supply to the heating instead of a filling loop at the boiler.
The hot water as your saying should be cylinder,storage tank in loft,min head required from highest hot water tap is approx 1meter,and any other taps on the hot water that are lower will have slightly higher pressure,mono block taps are not designed for use with a pump due to small bore of pipe,either 8,10,12 or 15 mm.
Also is there a non return valve fitted on the hot and a double check valve on the cold mains to tap?
Pump may not switch on due to distance from tap to pump as it needs to sense pressure being demanded,why not fit another pump with independent supply to kitchen tap instead
Sorry, but nowhere did I say its a combi, it simply wouldn't work.
I'd like to activate the pump at touch of a button.
She won't let me change the tap. Prepared to spend money to change the system in order to keep it.
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Just buy another fickin tap, tight arse.
What are you for? Exactly? Useless bloody scouser ;D
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Just buy another fickin tap, tight arse.
What are you for? Exactly? Useless bloody scouser ;D
Quiet! I'm grooming Rog for Jaime. ;D
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Is this when you didn't say it ??? :o ;D ;D
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I'm butting out on this one now . . . all too confusing for me ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Is this when you didn't say it ??? :o ;D ;D
That's right, it couldn't. Can't. Won't. Wouldn't. Not possible. Won't work. If a pump is fitted, a combi couldn't keep up. ???
Therefor it can't possibly be a combi ???
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You say you have a plumber
Why can he not fix the problem is it because of the price he has given you?
Is the boiler a combi or not
Oil or gas?
Plumber suggests replacing the tap due to the restrictive bore.
We don't want to o this as its exactly the tap we want.
Combi couldn't keep up with a pump. The two are not comparable, so we have to have a hot water tank to feed said pump. As said this is on the landing.
Its gas.
Is this when you didn't say it ??? :o ;D ;D
That's right, it couldn't. Can't. Won't. Wouldn't. Not possible. Won't work. If a pump is fitted, a combi couldn't keep up. ???
Therefor it can't possibly be a combi ???
Well I read it the other way that could be read - confused even more so as a dragon would say "I'm out as well"
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Can we start fresh,what hot water system i.e cylinder,elson tank,? where pump is situated,and where is cold storage tank
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Sorry but we're all saying a combi can't work with a pump, which I said it had a pump, yet we're all asking if its a combi? ;D
I thought Michele2.6 was taking the wee. ;D
Anyway, this tap?
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Are you using a shower pump?
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Sorry but we're all saying a combi can't work with a pump, which I said it had a pump, yet we're all asking if its a combi? ;D
I thought Michele2.6 was taking the wee. ;D
Anyway, this tap?
Take it apart, clean out any crap.
Check the flexible connections for kinks. If possible fit solid copper tails - more hygienic & less resistance to flow.
Check the whole system, especially around the pump, for airlocks and kinked pipes.
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Can we start fresh,what hot water system i.e cylinder,elson tank,? where pump is situated,and where is cold storage tank
Boiler is a Worcester condenser ::)
Water tank is a hot only Emershion on the landing, with the pump sited next to it.
Cold water tank is in the loft directly above it.
Pump feeds all pipes, including showe mixer tap on the bathroom wall, except the kitchen inlet mains to kitchen tap and dishwasher.
There's is a water softener in the garage under the boiler. So kitchen tap must be mains fed for cold. I'm not having one of those poxy drinking water taps I hate them.
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What make and model of pump ?
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Video of tap behaviour, or lack of. :)
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/297C7F0E-FD28-4CA5-9EA8-45C4110F5F59-23362-000009C43DE09BD4_zps201861b4.mp4
Monsoon 3bar
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/9DF46A8D-7CFD-4D2F-98CC-819B3A958C9C-23362-000009C8C1F7D6CA_zpscd2dca33.jpg)
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Ahh. Doesn't appear to be blocked then ::)
Did you mention something about a non return valve? If there is one then bin it.
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Personally would use that pump for the showers and then use a single impeller pump for rest of hot water taps,although it say can be used for your purpose,it seems like the pressure solenoid switch isn't sensing when the tap is asking for water
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Ahh. Doesn't appear to be blocked then ::)
Did you mention something about a non return valve? If there is one then bin it.
Yes just before the tap iirc.
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Personally would use that pump for the showers and then use a single impeller pump for rest of hot water taps,although it say can be used for your purpose,it seems like the pressure solenoid switch isn't sensing when the tap is asking for water
Specific to that tap, yes.
Shower hot and cold tap, bathroom sink hot/cold mixer tap, and down stairs loo cold(you saw) and hot all flow fine when turned on.
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Change non return valve could be faulty.
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Just to be clear(er) the downstairs loo tap cold in the video is also connected to the pump, and flows fine.
In order to get the kitchen tap to flow, leave it open, turn on any other tap in the house or indeed if a loo has been flushed or anything that does cause the pump to turn, then the kitchen hot will flow. Because the tap is open, and the pump is now turning, due to the cold tap turned on as in the video, then the kitchen hot tap flows.
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Change non return valve could be faulty.
Non return was installed to help the flow problem. It made no odds. Sadly.
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Ahh. Doesn't appear to be blocked then ::)
Did you mention something about a non return valve? If there is one then bin it.
Yes just before the tap iirc.
I reckon the spring in the non return valve is a bit fierce. I can't think which regulation demands that it be installed but there probably is one :-\
In the first instance I would have the guts out of the non-return valve to see if it is the cause. If it is a legal requirement that it be there then I would shop around and find a replacement with a weaker spring.
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Ahh. Doesn't appear to be blocked then ::)
Did you mention something about a non return valve? If there is one then bin it.
Yes just before the tap iirc.
I reckon the spring in the non return valve is a bit fierce. I can't think which regulation demands that it be installed but there probably is one :-\
In the first instance I would have the guts out of the non-return valve to see if it is the cause. If it is a legal requirement that it be there then I would shop around and find a replacement with a weaker spring.
See my previous. :)
In other words. Tap refused to flow. Non return installed. No change.
To add, the pump was installed after the tap. The tap did flow, just, if agitated, or there would be a pause.
Since the pump was installed, the tap now refuses to flow on its own.
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Change non return valve could be faulty.
Non return was installed to help the flow problem. It made no odds. Sadly.
Trying to imagine how that might work :-\
Was this before or after the pump was fitted?
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Tap fitted 10 years ago. It paused but would flow eventually.
Pump fitted with new bathroom a couple of years ago. Tap stopped flowing.
Non return fitted a year ago, no change.
Boiler due for service in a couple of months, so will grab plumber for another go at the tap while he's here, if there's another thing to try, so to speak.
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Theory behind non return was that maybe pressure would reduse in the pipe as the hot water cooled. Suction would withdraw the water from the tap end, so was less likely to start to flow.
I never said it was a good idea ;D just a desperate one while plumber was here for the last boiler service.
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Confusion rules ok ??? ;)
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Confusion rules ok ??? ;)
Ah yes, the Oof sniper, ever helpful. :y
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Confusion rules ok ??? ;)
Ah yes, the Oof sniper, ever helpful. :y
No not sniping just finding (as others who have bowed out) your posts increasingly confusing. To be helpful, as you seem to be having difficulty in explaining your problem/system succinctly, I suggest you get a plumber in who will be able to practically assess, and hopefully fix, the problem. Again no need for sarcasm - its not clever ;)
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Theory behind non return was that maybe pressure would reduse in the pipe as the hot water cooled. Suction would withdraw the water from the tap end, so was less likely to start to flow.
I never said it was a good idea ;D just a desperate one while plumber was here for the last boiler service.
Right. No legal requirement for it so bin it :y
I wonder if there is another one on the pump :-\ if so bin that one as well :y
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Just to be clear(er) the downstairs loo tap cold in the video is also connected to the pump, and flows fine.
In order to get the kitchen tap to flow, leave it open, turn on any other tap in the house or indeed if a loo has been flushed or anything that does cause the pump to turn, then the kitchen hot will flow. Because the tap is open, and the pump is now turning, due to the cold tap turned on as in the video, then the kitchen hot tap flows.
How come the pump pumps hot and cold water? been following this, seems to be the strangest set up - ever......... ::) ::) :D :D
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Just to be clear(er) the downstairs loo tap cold in the video is also connected to the pump, and flows fine.
In order to get the kitchen tap to flow, leave it open, turn on any other tap in the house or indeed if a loo has been flushed or anything that does cause the pump to turn, then the kitchen hot will flow. Because the tap is open, and the pump is now turning, due to the cold tap turned on as in the video, then the kitchen hot tap flows.
How come the pump pumps hot and cold water? been following this, seems to be the strangest set up - ever......... ::) ::) :D :D
originally, because the flow to the tap/shower mixer was so poor. Flow to all other taps in the house where poor too, although not as bad, so it was later altered to pump all pipes, except kitchen due to the water softener.
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Just to be clear(er) the downstairs loo tap cold in the video is also connected to the pump, and flows fine.
In order to get the kitchen tap to flow, leave it open, turn on any other tap in the house or indeed if a loo has been flushed or anything that does cause the pump to turn, then the kitchen hot will flow. Because the tap is open, and the pump is now turning, due to the cold tap turned on as in the video, then the kitchen hot tap flows.
How come the pump pumps hot and cold water? been following this, seems to be the strangest set up - ever......... ::) ::) :D :D
originally, because the flow to the tap/shower mixer was so poor. Flow to all other taps in the house where poor too, although not as bad, so it was later altered to pump all pipes, except kitchen due to the water softener.
So one pump pumps hot and cold water, surely that would give you warm water at all outlets......or does the pump have multi vanes? I think Michael 2.6? :-[ was trying to clarify a few things and descriptions may be differing, hence confusion....... :-\ :-\ :-\
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Just to be clear(er) the downstairs loo tap cold in the video is also connected to the pump, and flows fine.
In order to get the kitchen tap to flow, leave it open, turn on any other tap in the house or indeed if a loo has been flushed or anything that does cause the pump to turn, then the kitchen hot will flow. Because the tap is open, and the pump is now turning, due to the cold tap turned on as in the video, then the kitchen hot tap flows.
How come the pump pumps hot and cold water? been following this, seems to be the strangest set up - ever......... ::) ::) :D :D
originally, because the flow to the tap/shower mixer was so poor. Flow to all other taps in the house where poor too, although not as bad, so it was later altered to pump all pipes, except kitchen due to the water softener.
So one pump pumps hot and cold water, surely that would give you warm water at all outlets......or does the pump have multi vanes? I think Michael 2.6? :-[ was trying to clarify a few things and descriptions may be differing, hence confusion....... :-\ :-\ :-\
Its a twin. Think pump, in the middle, with a cold in and out on one end, and a hot in and out at the other. If it detects flow at either end, the pump chimes in and pumps which ever tap or outlet is on.
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Just to be clear(er) the downstairs loo tap cold in the video is also connected to the pump, and flows fine.
In order to get the kitchen tap to flow, leave it open, turn on any other tap in the house or indeed if a loo has been flushed or anything that does cause the pump to turn, then the kitchen hot will flow. Because the tap is open, and the pump is now turning, due to the cold tap turned on as in the video, then the kitchen hot tap flows.
How come the pump pumps hot and cold water? been following this, seems to be the strangest set up - ever......... ::) ::) :D :D
originally, because the flow to the tap/shower mixer was so poor. Flow to all other taps in the house where poor too, although not as bad, so it was later altered to pump all pipes, except kitchen due to the water softener.
So one pump pumps hot and cold water, surely that would give you warm water at all outlets......or does the pump have multi vanes? I think Michael 2.6? :-[ was trying to clarify a few things and descriptions may be differing, hence confusion....... :-\ :-\ :-\
Its a twin. Think pump, in the middle, with a cold in and out on one end, and a hot in and out at the other. If it detects flow at either end, the pump chimes in and pumps which ever tap or outlet is on.
Right, that reminds me of the 'Startomatic' generators I used to work on years ago.... :y
So pressure or a low voltage sensor should turn on your pump, got my head round this now, but not familiar with it, sounds like it has never been working properly....... :-\ :-\ :-\
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The tap has never been right. The pump works fine.
The bathroom tap is also a mixer but has a separate tap for hot cold. Works fine.
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Pump is like this.
http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/DEF/product/!!46415!!/?gclid=CKKHlee7nrgCFTMgtAodtwkAYA
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Can you try a different kitchen tap or if you have isolator valves under then try connecting straight the hot pipe with a bit of flexible tubing into the sink. If when you turn on the isolator valve, the pump starts and hot water flows, then this shows that there is not enough initial pressure released with the tap to start any flow, so you get a pressure drop to start the pump.
Personally, I think the only solution will be to replace the tap for a low pressure one.
Here are a couple of links that you might find useful. You tap appears to be in a grey area between a low pressure 0.3bar and high pressure 1.0bar
http://www.tapstore.com/identify-your-plumbing-system (http://www.tapstore.com/identify-your-plumbing-system)
This link describes your system except for a shower, but it explains why a non-return valve should be fitted and why this will make the pump less likely to turn on.
http://www.tapstore.com/pumped-hot-cold-mains (http://www.tapstore.com/pumped-hot-cold-mains)
Finally, a variation of the above with all house with hot pumped, but the same problems as above.
http://www.tapstore.com/mains-cold-hot-pumped (http://www.tapstore.com/mains-cold-hot-pumped)
HTH
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There are isolator valves for the washing machine on the same pipe iirc. But I'd need to check. If so, wmc has no problem with hot flow.
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Looking at your pump specification. this is surely the problem "Flow switch sensitivity: approx. 0.6 l/min", you have no water flowing at the tap, so you don't get the 0.6l to start the pump.
If the washing machine has a hot supply as modern ones don't, so they can get an "A" efficiency rating. This is madness, but rules are rules.
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Yes, so how to get it working? It is high pressure approved. Although ours is pumped gravity feed. Not entirely the same I know.
We want to keep the tap. Or she wants to keep the tap, put it that way. :)
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The flow is so poor throughout the house, we had to install the pump.
I've even considered fitting a switch near the sink to activate the pump electrically. Somehow.
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How old is the washing machine? Our one, about 4 years old, only has a cold feed and heats the water to the desired temperature :-\ Thinking out loud... if the washer doesn't require a hot feed, and the hot feed to it is fine, then can you not divert this to the kitchen tap, isolating the feed which doesn't work as it should :-\
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Yes, so how to get it working? It is high pressure approved. Although ours is pumped gravity feed. Not entirely the same I know.
We want to keep the tap. Or she wants to keep the tap, put it that way. :)
You might have to offer her some choices, like keep the system how it is with no hot running water to the sink, or alternatively "how about a new tap that works". ::)
Can't you find a tap that is basically the same design, but works at 0.3 bar or less.
I would try the hot washing machine feed next, to eliminate the plumbing. No hot water to the washing machine if it has a hot feed, will not stop it working as it will just use the element to heat the water to the wash temperature.
ex taxi Al, keep up, ;) :P if you read my posts you will see I suggested this a few posts ago.
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::) might have skipped a page inadvertently... it did jump from page 2 to 5 over the evening ;D
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It's definitely the crappy tappy and, if Mrs Gixer won't let him change it, then he'll have to live with it.
Now move on please or this could become another of his 'obsession' threads.
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Oh great, another plumber calling themselves an engineer when they are not (as is clear by the non engineering approach lol)
The pump will already have non return valves as this is how they maintain the pressure on the outlet and is a fundamental for thier operation.
Adding another one is a daft thing to do so get rid.
A possible would be to add a small pressure vessel to the hot outlet side of the pump to overcome cooling of the hot water resulting in lower pressure initialy (some pumps have this), easy to check, once the tap is delivering hot water with the pump running (via what ever trick is used), turn the tap off, wait a few seconds for the pump to stop and turn it on again....does the pump run again?
It may well be that the flow is just to low to trigger the pump, some pump types have varying modes (pos and neg head) which effectively alters the pressure trigger point (e.g. the salamander ESP100) and would solve the issue.
As for the noise, poor installation often makes the pump very noisy, I will check your pic again and then post regarding that one.
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(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/9DF46A8D-7CFD-4D2F-98CC-819B3A958C9C-23362-000009C8C1F7D6CA_zpscd2dca33.jpg)
Right, it appears to be not well installed and is sat directly on the floor?
If so the pump will resonate through the flooring, a better install is to have the pump 20mm plus off the floor and sat on some insulating material, even old capret underlay works well. Doing so will drasticaly reduce the noise, you cna go furtehr and creat a well ventilated box lined with underlay to furtehr reduce the noise (yes it can be done without affecting the cooling)
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Re noise, yes it could be better installed, but it is sat on a black mat just visible bottom left of pic, but it could be thicker.
Main issue is the original plumbing when the house was built. It's crap, rests on floor boards, pushes against joists and has no clips or mounting points in any if the boxing. So the dishwasher piping bangs in the boxing between floors when flow is called for instance, although that run is not on the pump circuit, but it shows the standard of work. Some of which is visible by the lime scale on the pipework in the pic, plus the never soldered since install leaking central heating pipes under the concrete floor in the lounge.
The cold flow to the Kitchen tap was always slow/low volune, as was the rest if the house. Hence the pump.
When we chose the tap we may have confused a gravity fed system pumped system for a high pressure system. Hence the issue.
Changing the tap would solve it, but we spent ages finding that item so, it stays.
Sounds like a vessel would help, as its more responsive/pauses slightly less once the tap has flowed recently. In fact, would a big(ger) pressure vessel overcome the problem completely given how well the one in the heating system works. ..?
I will check later but I suspect another restriction on that pipe run somewhere, behind the dishwasher. Somats not right there.
As usual with these border line things, it looks like a number of factors could/are contributing.
:)
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If the pump is correctly installed with its flexis and a good insulator underneath then close to no vibration should be transmitted and hence you are left with pump noise only.
A better thicker insulator would significantly improve things (even folded t-towels would be better).
A pressure vessel will work IF the issue is the hot water cooling as it will maintain a constant post pump pressure, as per the above, does it work ok of the tap is operated shartly after it was turned off ?.
Banging from pipe work is easily sorted with the installation of arrestors :y
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Do you have a link to the tap type?
Many have a ceramaic cartridge which can be changed, I have replaced a low flow one with a free-er flowing variant before
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Here's the tap itself
http://www.tap-spares.com/sections.asp?id=48&sortit=3&pg=2
And here
http://www.howdens.com/media/library/pdf/108.pdf
For The Master. :)
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I should add, there appear to be two types. A single digit difference in the part no. Iirc.
Finding out which one we have will be, a challenge. :(
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(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/9DF46A8D-7CFD-4D2F-98CC-819B3A958C9C-23362-000009C8C1F7D6CA_zpscd2dca33.jpg)
Right, it appears to be not well installed and is sat directly on the floor?
If so the pump will resonate through the flooring, a better install is to have the pump 20mm plus off the floor and sat on some insulating material, even old capret underlay works well. Doing so will drasticaly reduce the noise, you cna go furtehr and creat a well ventilated box lined with underlay to further reduce the noise (yes it can be done without affecting the cooling)
I built a vented box around mine and used loudspeaker sound absorption material, where I had build some speakers many years before, and had still got the excess materials left over, stored in the garage. You can only hear the pump when in the bedrooms with the en-suite shower and it is not intrusive.
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I should add, there appear to be two types. A single digit difference in the part no. Iirc.
Finding out which one we have will be, a challenge. :(
Whats the difference between the two spec wise?
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I should add, there appear to be two types. A single digit difference in the part no. Iirc.
Finding out which one we have will be, a challenge. :(
Whats the difference between the two spec wise?
http://www.howdens.com/media/library/pdf/109.pdf
Different spout, same supply spec, flows slightly less l/min, bigger foot print fitting. Nothing really I guess..?
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Most taps in the UK market these days seem to have been designed for a more european system with mains pressure on the hot water. The kitchen tap we have is barely fit for purpose on a gravity system. With the supplied non-return valve fitted it was a choccy teapot. I'm sure it would flow plenty of water to trigger a pump, though. We have a similar shower pump and it only needs a dribble to start it. Maybe the flow sensors in the pump need a clean out?
Do you know where the pipework from pump to tap runs? Just wondering if there's anywhere it can airlock (i.e. a run up through the loft) as this would certainly reduce the flow. Also, is the pump correctly fed from an Essex / Surrey / Warix flange out of the tank to reduce the chance of it sucking air or just from the vented top connection on the tank, as this won't help?
I would remove any unnecessary junk from the hot feed to the tap. You don't need the non-return valve, as said, and can probably do away with any ball isolator valves, etc, which may be restrictive if not full bore.
If flow is that bad to all taps, then something else might be amiss. A gate valve somewhere in the flow that's not full on, for example, or the outlet from the tank clogged with calcium?
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If the pump is correctly installed with its flexis and a good insulator underneath then close to no vibration should be transmitted and hence you are left with pump noise only.
A better thicker insulator would significantly improve things (even folded t-towels would be better).
A pressure vessel will work IF the issue is the hot water cooling as it will maintain a constant post pump pressure, as per the above, does it work ok of the tap is operated shartly after it was turned off ?.
Banging from pipe work is easily sorted with the installation of arrestors :y
No. Its better...if run recently. In that it pauses for about 5 secs before the water DOES flow. As opposed to never flowing no matter how long its left(unless the pump is activated by another tap)
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So a small pressure vessel may well help
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Most taps in the UK market these days seem to have been designed for a more european system with mains pressure on the hot water. The kitchen tap we have is barely fit for purpose on a gravity system. With the supplied non-return valve fitted it was a choccy teapot. I'm sure it would flow plenty of water to trigger a pump, though. We have a similar shower pump and it only needs a dribble to start it. Maybe the flow sensors in the pump need a clean out?
the tap was installed first, (then a small pump) then a bigger pump, then a one way valve near the tap. The tap has never worked correctly. Just got worse as stuff was added, although if there is no flow , a one way valve can't then give less flow so in that sense it made no odds, but it will be removed. The sensors appear to be external, so can't be dirty, pic to follow
Do you know where the pipework from pump to tap runs? Just wondering if there's anywhere it can airlock (i.e. a run up through the loft) as this would certainly reduce the flow.
from the pump, up about two feet over some other pipes (could have air there) then down to the floor boards, along, then down in the corner of the kitchen
Also, is the pump correctly fed from an Essex / Surrey / Warix flange out of the tank to reduce the chance of it sucking air or just from the vented top connection on the tank, as this won't help?
a what flange? No idea. Pipe runs down from the loft, even though the tank is on the landing :-\
I would remove any unnecessary junk from the hot feed to the tap. You don't need the non-return valve, as said, and can probably do away with any ball isolator valves, etc, which may be restrictive if not full bore.
If flow is that bad to all taps, then something else might be amiss. A gate valve somewhere in the flow that's not full on, for example, or the outlet from the tank clogged with calcium?
very possible, the down stairs cloakroom hot is furred up/will not open fully
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So a small pressure vessel may well help
I think it will help, if not entirely fix it. :y
...can a vessel work on a non sealed system? My only experience with these is on a sealed central heating system.
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(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/56AD5463-6079-44C6-9C38-1DA35F09701D-24430-00000A27334F911F_zps36227f51.jpg)
A sensor...? ? ? ?
With arrow on.
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Pump position and surrounding pipe work.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/553AA0D3-3CF6-4024-A8DB-9ED1A681E14C-24430-00000A2729ED5592_zps2a5f1219.jpg)
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Are the taps 10 years old?
Do they have flexible connectors from copper to tap /and are they stright or kinked in any way? Has the problem of lack of flow got worse over the years?
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Have you not fixed that tap yet?......... ::) ::) ::)
Blaady savernoorssss, would you like me to arrange a proper plumber and send him down to sort you out?.......... ;) ;)
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Have you not fixed that tap yet?......... ::) ::) ::)
Blaady savernoorssss, would you like me to arrange a proper plumber and send him down to sort you out?.......... ;) ;)
Ooohohooo there's plenty where this came from, don't you worry. ;)
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Those sensors will have a reed switch on the outside of the pipe, and a little slug with a magnet on it inside the pipe, in the water flow. When the water flows, the slug moves up and magnet activates reed switch.
Difficult to diagnose remotely. I could pop round sometime if you like? :y I need to use your press, after all. ;)
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Are the taps 10 years old?
Do they have flexible connectors from copper to tap /and are they stright or kinked in any way? Has the problem of lack of flow got worse over the years?
Taps old? Er, this one is fairly new but was like this from the start.
Flexi connectors are "slightly" kinked but I'd be suprised if they where restrictive as a result. :-\
Not got worse over time as such, just got worse when the pump was fitted.
Just checked...
...flexis are not quite straight, so I checked further, with tap open.
It flowed the moment I moved the flexi pipe. Its not twisted or kinked.
While holding the flexi...
Tap opened, you can feel the pressure move the pipe, but the tap doesn't flow. Wiggle the pipe further, tap flows. You can see the water (via surface tension) in the tap opening move as you move the flexi. All while tap is open. If moving the pipe to cause the water to withdraw it won't flow, obviously, but move the flexi in a way that makes the water drip extend from the tap enough, its millimetres, and the pump kicks in and it flows.
Interesting. Pressure clearly there, and overcoming the one way valve ad I can feal it at the flexi. But still won't flow. Jiggle flexi and it flows. Surely the pressure is more force than jiggling as far as the tap is concerned...? :o
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Those sensors will have a reed switch on the outside of the pipe, and a little slug with a magnet on it inside the pipe, in the water flow. When the water flows, the slug moves up and magnet activates reed switch.
Difficult to diagnose remotely. I could pop round sometime if you like? :y I need to use your press, after all. ;)
they seem to work exceptionally well( given my last post) :-\
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Sounds like the flexi pipe is blocked or kinked.
Hasn't got a gauze filter at one end, has it?
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Sounds like the flexi pipe is blocked or kinked.
Hasn't got a gauze filter at one end, has it?
It might do, but the plumber swapped the hot and cold flexis around when the one ways where fitted to test the tap. Fault followed the hot feed. I presume they would have checked ant filters...
...errr, I'd better pull the lot apart in the morning and see. ;D
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Or remove the filters.
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Sounds like the flexi pipe is blocked or kinked.
Hasn't got a gauze filter at one end, has it?
What he said ::)
If the pump runs with the pipe tweaked then that pipe is either kinked or blocked. The outside of the flexi pipe is completely independent of the inner, so whilst the outside looks fine the inside could very well have a kink in it :y
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Or... ( The pipe along that wall is completely unfixed :-[. )
Until it get to a unit on the far side iirc.
Jiggling the flexi might be bouncing the pipe up and down, and adjusting the "head" or drop (or whatever its called) from the tank and pump. Its probably that that's adjusting the water level and the pump sees flow(of sorts) maybe..?
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I envisage a piece of string to said pipe attached to tap handle ;D
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Or... ( The pipe along that wall is completely unfixed :-[. )
Until it get to a unit on the far side iirc.
Jiggling the flexi might be bouncing the pipe up and down, and adjusting the "head" or drop (or whatever its called) from the tank and pump. Its probably that that's adjusting the water level and the pump sees flow(of sorts) maybe..?
I reckon it's just a blockage somewhere. The water is under 2 storeys of pressure. Moving the pipe slightly will make naff all difference IMHO.
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Or... ( The pipe along that wall is completely unfixed :-[. )
Until it get to a unit on the far side iirc.
Jiggling the flexi might be bouncing the pipe up and down, and adjusting the "head" or drop (or whatever its called) from the tank and pump. Its probably that that's adjusting the water level and the pump sees flow(of sorts) maybe..?
I reckon it's just a blockage somewhere. The water is under 2 storeys of pressure. Moving the pipe slightly will make naff all difference IMHO.
Erm :-[ , its a bit more than slight :-[ ;D
Its a couple of inches at the copper elbow to flexi. You can see the drip on the open tap outlet move in and out of the tap outlet in time with the bounce of the pipe.
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But yes, it could well be a blockage. Lets hope its that simple. :)
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I was always told that flexis should be straight, are you saying they go through a 90 degree bend?
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I was always told that flexis should be straight, are you saying they go through a 90 degree bend?
No they are vertical, in line with the tap and copper pipe, but a fraction long, so move out of line or where ever they want to go due to pressure and the loose pipe.
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I'll post a pic
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Pipes under sink
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/8AA22CC9-0988-473B-93A7-1B4ADD61B808-24430-00000A3585439B5D_zps7fe64614.jpg)
Video of jiggling
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/42899700-F531-43FF-A4B3-55EA60F0A28A-24430-00000A35C4E75331_zps91125eb4.mp4
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Pipes under sink
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/8AA22CC9-0988-473B-93A7-1B4ADD61B808-24430-00000A3585439B5D_zps7fe64614.jpg)
Video of jiggling
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/42899700-F531-43FF-A4B3-55EA60F0A28A-24430-00000A35C4E75331_zps91125eb4.mp4
It may be the picture Chris but those flexys look like they are imploded ???
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Collapsed do you mean? Er yes they do look like that in the pic, not sure they are though.
Would replacing them with copper help, even if they are sound. :-\
Anyway, I'll have it apart later, got some car work this morning so laters. :y
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Collapsed do you mean? Er yes they do look like that in the pic, not sure they are though.
Would replacing them with copper help, even if they are sound. :-\
Anyway, I'll have it apart later, got some car work this morning so laters. :y
Yes they do look like they are ::)
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The copper tails are MUCH better than flexis and those look to be twisted slightly and clearly bent
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The copper tails are MUCH better than flexis and those look to be twisted slightly and clearly bent
Agreed, have always used these without any problems. ;)
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The copper tails are MUCH better than flexis and those look to be twisted slightly and clearly bent
Agreed, have always used these without any problems. ;)
Centre hole in the flexis coupling is massively restrictive. They're going in the bin too.
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The copper tails are MUCH better than flexis and those look to be twisted slightly and clearly bent
Agreed, have always used these without any problems. ;)
Centre hole in the flexis coupling is massively restrictive. They're going in the bin too.
Excellent :y
Feeling quietly confident that you may have a working tap once the flex connectors and the non-return valve(s) have been eliminated :y
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Chris, did you ever fix this?
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Ah yes, now then, well... Yes and no.
What happened was...
We had the plumber round to remove the downstairs cloakroom sweet. Water off. Removed sink and wc. Water on. "See you in a weak", when he's going to fit the new suite after the floor is done, replace the flexis on said tap, hoover the limescale out of the water tank and a few other jobs, and off he went.
Bit of spluttering from the taps in the house as the water comes through. Pump is now quieter...
...and the tap? Has been absolutely faultless ever since.
Dunno. :-\
Only thing with the cloakroom plumbing was the hot water tap on the sink wouldn't flow when open. You'd get a trickle, but it would tail of to nothing. So maybe there was an air lock in there somewhere affecting things. He said the tap guts where bunged up.
But all is well now. Weird.
See how it goes when the cloakroom is re plumbed. :-\
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Chris, did you ever fix this?
Whyzat? Similar problems? Or... :-\
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Chris, did you ever fix this?
Whyzat? Similar problems? Or... :-\
No, just wondered on how you had got on as it is a long thread with much advice and was hoping where the thread died without a conclusion, that you had managed to fix it. :y
Just me being nosey in not hearing a conclusion, where it is a bit like the doorbell ringing and you missing the last 2 all is revealed minutes in a film. ???
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Ah yes, the story continue dont worry...
Well. Slowly. As we've been on Holybobs on my last off shift bog all has happened or will happen, for what will have been 3 weeks. No ,mv8 project, no plumbing, no decorating, no car work, nout.
Oh hang on, she tells me the cloakroom floor is being re screeded tomorrow, Lino down Saturday. Then the plumber can crack on. He has a bloody easy job, and I could have done it. But simply don't have the time. :(
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Which remind me, I need to rumage through the garage for a few people :-[
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Right.
Plumbing to the cloakroom sink is back is back on. And the kitchen tap....
Well, any guesses? There's only two options. ;)
He hasn't plumbed the wc yet.
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Kitchen tap fubar again? ::)
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Poll added. :-X
And yes, it has taken this long to sort the plumber out. ::)
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Voted no, because nothing is that simple ::)
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Vote yes, purely to be different. I'm individual, in touch with my feminine side, and special.
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Vote yes, purely to be different. I'm individual, in touch with my feminine side, and special.
I thought it was your needs that were special.......... ;) ;)
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Ok a bit of clarification needed, koz your all talking 'dangle berries' by the sound of it ;D
Question is, did fixing the "dead leg" pipe work, caused by the non flowing hot tap in the cloakroom, fix the kitchen tap flow, or not? Put another way, Cloakroom is all plumbed in and working correctly. But does the kitchen hot tap still work?
Hurry up I'm loosing the will to live here ;D
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Ok a bit of clarification needed, koz your all talking 'dangle berries' by the sound of it ;D
Question is, did fixing the "dead leg" pipe work, caused by the non flowing hot tap in the cloakroom, fix the kitchen tap flow, or not? Put another way, Cloakroom is all plumbed in and working correctly. But does the kitchen hot tap still work?
Hurry up I'm loosing the will to live here ;D
A bit more clarification: Who gives a toss? ::)
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Ok a bit of clarification needed, koz your all talking 'dangle berries' by the sound of it ;D
Question is, did fixing the "dead leg" pipe work, caused by the non flowing hot tap in the cloakroom, fix the kitchen tap flow, or not? Put another way, Cloakroom is all plumbed in and working correctly. But does the kitchen hot tap still work?
Hurry up I'm loosing the will to live here ;D
A bit more clarification: Who gives a toss? ::)
Well, specifically, Rods was asking, if you bothered your arse to read the thread. Numb nut.
But if Esta not interested, that obviously means nobody else is.
I shall keep the answer,
to,
my,
Self. :(
;D
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Come on grumpy, yay or nay?
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Come on grumpy, yay or nay?
Nope, not playing anymore :(
;D
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Ok a bit of clarification needed, koz your all talking 'dangle berries' by the sound of it ;D
Question is, did fixing the "dead leg" pipe work, caused by the non flowing hot tap in the cloakroom, fix the kitchen tap flow, or not? Put another way, Cloakroom is all plumbed in and working correctly. But does the kitchen hot tap still work?
Hurry up I'm loosing the will to live here ;D
A bit more clarification: Who gives a toss? ::)
Well, specifically, Rods was asking, if you bothered your arse to read the thread. Numb nut.
But if Esta not interested, that obviously means nobody else is.
I shall keep the answer,
to,
my,
Self. :(
;D
Rods was asking? Three fickin weeks ago. Tell him the outcome and move on.
-
I might even strop off and delete my account, almost as if Lovypool had lost the league. Again! ;D
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Ok a bit of clarification needed, koz your all talking 'dangle berries' by the sound of it ;D
Question is, did fixing the "dead leg" pipe work, caused by the non flowing hot tap in the cloakroom, fix the kitchen tap flow, or not? Put another way, Cloakroom is all plumbed in and working correctly. But does the kitchen hot tap still work?
Hurry up I'm loosing the will to live here ;D
A bit more clarification: Who gives a toss? ::)
Well, specifically, Rods was asking, if you bothered your arse to read the thread. Numb nut.
But if Esta not interested, that obviously means nobody else is.
I shall keep the answer,
to,
my,
Self. :(
;D
Rods was asking? Three fickin weeks ago. Tell him the outcome and move on.
Nope, well, I might Pm him the answer :P
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I might even strop off and delete my account, almost as if Lovypool had lost the league. Again! ;D
Please don't. It would just be toooooooo embarrassing when you had to come crawling back again. Hiding behind aliases and us pretending we didn't know. That was a really funny game that. ;D
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I might even strop off and delete my account, almost as if Lovypool had lost the league. Again! ;D
Please don't. It would just be toooooooo embarrassing when you had to come crawling back again. Hiding behind aliases and us pretending we didn't know. That was a really funny game that. ;D
Yeah yeah, I heard you cried. ;D