Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: 05omegav6 on 23 October 2013, 14:28:12
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24624934 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24624934)
Apparently the workers love the plant so much that they weren't able to compromise on wage negotiations ::)
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Yep. From what I heard on the radio,the main sticking point is the pension scheme. The company have said that the current old style final salary scheme simply wasn't sustainable and had to be replaced.The unions refused to face economic reality,and refused point blank to accept it.
Final salary schemes are almost unheard of in the private sector these days,because they are unnafordable.They are still prevalent in the public sector because the unions are strong,the government is weak. So the government will borrow the money to fund the pension schemes and make future generations pay the bill,which is morally wrong imo.
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The petrochemical part of the plant is/was losing money hand over fist. The unions miscalculated that it would have to stay open along with the refinery. The pay/pension issues continue at that site and no agreement has been reached. There is a problem with over-capacity in European refineries so, if Grangemouth closes there will be no shortage, we'll just have to import it.
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“We can’t accept the removal of Grangemouth from Scotland’s industrial infrastructure,” said Alex Salmond, Scotland’s first minister.
Well if he thinks that Scotland can be self sufficient and independant, then surely he can put a plan in place to nationalize it ;D Salmond is unhappy because this could make the voters realize the financial fragility of an independent Scotland.
Oh dear one more post to 1,000 . . . and some initiation ceremony involving lubricants :o
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“We can’t accept the removal of Grangemouth from Scotland’s industrial infrastructure,” said Alex Salmond, Scotland’s first minister.
Well if he thinks that Scotland can be self sufficient and independant, then surely he can put a plan in place to nationalize it ;D Salmond is unhappy because this could make the voters realize the financial fragility of an independent Scotland.
Not sure what he thinks he can do about it. ;D
A private business has to operate at a profit. In a sector where there is over supply that might require some belt tightening. What do the unions expect? Run it at a loss but have very happy employees with lovely pensions? They had a choice - job with reduced conditions or no job. seems they chose the latter.
Oh dear one more post to 1,000 . . . and some initiation ceremony involving lubricants :o
If you're lucky. :o
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The owner wants to sell the whole thing, so its a way to get rid of the troublesome union,and make it look like a viable business, herr salmon "the Scottish king" well use all his under hand plans to find a buyer for it. Look what Donald trumpet has done in Aberdeenshire.
cue conspiracy theory's.
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I'll give them a quid for it ::) then mothball it for a rainy day... OOF fuel supply anyone...
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Unite doing it's usual job of screwing it's members. :-X
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Unite doing it's usual job of screwing it's members. :-X
union leaders don't care about calling stikes because they still get paid,and raise there own profile.
the unions killed most of this countries heavy industry, ship building,steel works,coal mining,car manufacturing,etc etc. all through greed.those industries that are left have survived because they kicked the unions out. There is a but. Sometimes a union can help its members out when the company trys to be a bully,and the union points out the law and rights that the staff have,and sensible pay negotiations.
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Run by a group of morons who refuse to accept its not 1978. ::)
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Unite doing it's usual job of screwing it's members. :-X
union leaders don't care about calling stikes because they still get paid,and raise there own profile.
the unions killed most of this countries heavy industry, ship building,steel works,coal mining,car manufacturing,etc etc. all through greed.those industries that are left have survived because they kicked the unions out. There is a but. Sometimes a union can help its members out when the company trys to be a bully,and the union points out the law and rights that the staff have,and sensible pay negotiations.
I would agree with that. Sensible Unions can be worthwhile for those reasons. Its when they have a head full of Marxist claptrap they become a poisonous influence that causes chaos. :y
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Which would seem to exclude most every 'union' I can think of ::)
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Unite doing it's usual job of screwing it's members. :-X
union leaders don't care about calling stikes because they still get paid,and raise there own profile.
the unions killed most of this countries heavy industry, ship building,steel works,coal mining,car manufacturing,etc etc. all through greed.those industries that are left have survived because they kicked the unions out. There is a but. Sometimes a union can help its members out when the company trys to be a bully,and the union points out the law and rights that the staff have,and sensible pay negotiations.
I would agree with that. Sensible Unions can be worthwhile for those reasons. Its when they have a head full of Marxist claptrap they become a poisonous influence that causes chaos. :y
??? ::)
Albs, you are the last person I expect to hear those "arbitrary" words ;D :-X
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and honestly there are various "arbitrary" sentences to criticise :( and more than that whole thread is "arbitrary" to say the least ;D
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Cem - they demand their members are paid a certain percentage of their salary on retirement until they die,even though the cost is enormous. Also people live a lot longer than they used to which makes it impossible.The workplace is losing money on a large scale,but Unions seem to think that's not relevant,their demands must be met. They even go on strike to try and force the company to meet their demands. So the workplace loses even more money.
It doesn't matter though,they say they are entitled. Marxist claptrap. ;)
Result - workplace shuts down. No-one has a job.
If every company has a garden which has money trees they could pay everyone what they want to be paid (until the hyper inflation kicks in at least),but until then - if it hasn't been earned and is sitting in the bank,it cant be paid out to people. :)
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Cem - they demand their members are paid a certain percentage of their salary on retirement until they die,even though the cost is enormous. Also people live a lot longer than they used to which makes it impossible.The workplace is losing money on a large scale,but Unions seem to think that's not relevant,their demands must be met. They even go on strike to try and force the company to meet their demands. So the workplace loses even more money.
It doesn't matter though,they say they are entitled. Marxist claptrap. ;)
Result - workplace shuts down. No-one has a job.
If every company has a garden which has money trees they could pay everyone what they want to be paid (until the hyper inflation kicks in at least),but until then - if it hasn't been earned and is sitting in the bank,it cant be paid out to people. :)
pardon ???
what do you understand from retirement ? a retired old person who gave whole young years life for work day and night and then expected to live in a cold home without any food and money.. ???
sorry I forgot to think about the company is loosing money ;D :D
seriously it had to be planned and realised before, by the company when the workers signed up the contract .. >:(
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and dont tell me a refinery was always going minus all those years.. where is the money produced by the workers ?
let me tell you .. all spend .. somewhere else without any plan for the future >:( >:( >:(
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for your information: those lies that firm/company/factory is going downhill ,we must cut the costs otherwise everyone looses jobs blah blah..
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I cant tell how many times I have heard those lies here and there.. but I promise you this wont be the last that you hear!!!
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No, the petro chemical plant looks to have been losing money for years, and pensions are crippling UK companies, as workforces have shrunk (so less going in), people living longer (so more than planned coming out), and the investments have flatlined at best.
I was kicked out of a final salary pension 9 yrs ago when I was TUPE'd to a tinpot yankee computer firm. Thats the reality in the private sector now, and WILL come to the public sector soon. For each £5k pa at retirement, you need approx £100k pension fund. Imagine how little £5k will be in 25yrs when I retire...
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BSkyBs pension contributions are healthy for a private company, 8% while I put in 4%. They had a new online calculator, it's scary how much you need for a "healthy" pension. Even something modest such as £15k pension in today's terms, I needed to increase my contributions massively. I've now increased to 8% myself, so 16 combined. Even this is not enough, I need to go further soon.
Think people in pubic sector are dreaming if they think their pensions can continue the way they are, so many need to wake up.
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No, the petro chemical plant looks to have been losing money for years, and pensions are crippling UK companies, as workforces have shrunk (so less going in), people living longer (so more than planned coming out), and the investments have flatlined at best.
I was kicked out of a final salary pension 9 yrs ago when I was TUPE'd to a tinpot yankee computer firm. Thats the reality in the private sector now, and WILL come to the public sector soon. For each £5k pa at retirement, you need approx £100k pension fund. Imagine how little £5k will be in 25yrs when I retire...
its the managers/govt/politicians duty to take care of you when you retire.. people living more or costing more or system unprofitable now is whole load of b*llix.. but what amazes me that even intellectual people like you even accept that ???
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No, the petro chemical plant looks to have been losing money for years, and pensions are crippling UK companies, as workforces have shrunk (so less going in), people living longer (so more than planned coming out), and the investments have flatlined at best.
I was kicked out of a final salary pension 9 yrs ago when I was TUPE'd to a tinpot yankee computer firm. Thats the reality in the private sector now, and WILL come to the public sector soon. For each £5k pa at retirement, you need approx £100k pension fund. Imagine how little £5k will be in 25yrs when I retire...
its the managers/govt/politicians duty to take care of you when you retire.. people living more or costing more or system unprofitable now is whole load of b*llix.. but what amazes me that even intellectual people like you even accept that ???
Its reality. Where is this money going to come from ???
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BSkyBs pension contributions are healthy for a private company, 8% while I put in 4%. They had a new online calculator, it's scary how much you need for a "healthy" pension. Even something modest such as £15k pension in today's terms, I needed to increase my contributions massively. I've now increased to 8% myself, so 16 combined. Even this is not enough, I need to go further soon.
Think people in pubic sector are dreaming if they think their pensions can continue the way they are, so many need to wake up.
Sounds not far of statutary TBH, far from generous. My current employer, for the next 3 weeks anyway, puts in 12.6% and I put in 10%. Thats not really enough either.
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Next 3 weeks? Wtf? ???
12.6 is good, many others I know get nothing :o
Compared to most of my Uni class mates, Sky's is one of the highest.
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Next 3 weeks? Wtf? ???
12.6 is good, many others I know get nothing :o
Compared to most of my Uni class mates, Sky's is one of the highest.
Law changed 2 or 3 years back, if employee puts in 5%, employer must put in 6% (% figures may be a % out), if more than 5(?) employees
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Next 3 weeks? Wtf? ???
12.6 is good, many others I know get nothing :o
Compared to most of my Uni class mates, Sky's is one of the highest.
Law changed 2 or 3 years back, if employee puts in 5%, employer must put in 6% (% figures may be a % out), if more than 5(?) employees
Hummm, cause Sky lowered their rate since I joined. It used to be I put in 4, they put in 8. Which is what I am on.
Now it's you put in 3, they put in 6. Change came with new state pension thing, I chose not to opt out. So in effect I get 3 pensions. Apparently.
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My employer puts in 10% regardless of what I put in,which is much better than what I had previously.
Previous employer had a final salary scheme initially,but sent a letter to employees one day informing them that they had shut it down.
They said that if employees got themselves a new pension scheme they would match employee contributions - up to 5%.
A few years later it transpired the contributions had only been matched up to 3%. They denied ever saying 5% until I produced my copy of the letter thy sent. They then claimed it was a typo error and they wouldn't honour it.
If there was ever a company which deserved an unreasonable militant union, Milbank concrete floors was it. ::) ;D
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No, the petro chemical plant looks to have been losing money for years, and pensions are crippling UK companies, as workforces have shrunk (so less going in), people living longer (so more than planned coming out), and the investments have flatlined at best.
I was kicked out of a final salary pension 9 yrs ago when I was TUPE'd to a tinpot yankee computer firm. Thats the reality in the private sector now, and WILL come to the public sector soon. For each £5k pa at retirement, you need approx £100k pension fund. Imagine how little £5k will be in 25yrs when I retire...
its the managers/govt/politicians duty to take care of you when you retire.. people living more or costing more or system unprofitable now is whole load of b*llix.. but what amazes me that even intellectual people like you even accept that ???
Its reality. Where is this money going to come from ???
question is , where has the money gone which was created before.. if this is bussiness , all precautions must be made in time..
and in case necessary those workers either must be shifted to another job or area.. but a retirement without any money is unacceptable even in war..
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My employer puts in 10% regardless of what I put in,which is much better than what I had previously.
Previous employer had a final salary scheme initially,but sent a letter to employees one day informing them that they had shut it down.
They said that if employees got themselves a new pension scheme they would match employee contributions - up to 5%.
A few years later it transpired the contributions had only been matched up to 3%. They denied ever saying 5% until I produced my copy of the letter thy sent. They then claimed it was a typo error and they wouldn't honour it.
If there was ever a company which deserved an unreasonable militant union, Milbank concrete floors was it. ::) ;D
a single worker has no power in front of the "system" .. without unions , the system will chew you and spit you any moment..
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No-one retires with no money in this country Cem. Pensions are relatively generous for everyone. There is a crisis in pensions though due to the factors TB mentioned. ;)
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My employer puts in 10% regardless of what I put in,which is much better than what I had previously.
Previous employer had a final salary scheme initially,but sent a letter to employees one day informing them that they had shut it down.
They said that if employees got themselves a new pension scheme they would match employee contributions - up to 5%.
A few years later it transpired the contributions had only been matched up to 3%. They denied ever saying 5% until I produced my copy of the letter thy sent. They then claimed it was a typo error and they wouldn't honour it.
If there was ever a company which deserved an unreasonable militant union, Milbank concrete floors was it. ::) ;D
a single worker has no power in front of the "system" .. without unions , the system will chew you and spit you any moment..
Been there done that Cem. I was a Union official (and very left wing) in a previous life. As I said earlier,imo there is a place for reasonable,non political unions in the workplace. :y
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My employer puts in 10% regardless of what I put in,which is much better than what I had previously.
Previous employer had a final salary scheme initially,but sent a letter to employees one day informing them that they had shut it down.
They said that if employees got themselves a new pension scheme they would match employee contributions - up to 5%.
A few years later it transpired the contributions had only been matched up to 3%. They denied ever saying 5% until I produced my copy of the letter thy sent. They then claimed it was a typo error and they wouldn't honour it.
If there was ever a company which deserved an unreasonable militant union, Milbank concrete floors was it. ::) ;D
a single worker has no power in front of the "system" .. without unions , the system will chew you and spit you any moment..
Been there done that Cem. I was a Union official (and very left wing) in a previous life. As I said earlier,imo there is a place for reasonable,non political unions in the workplace. :y
happy to hear that :y
with your permission, cant I correct one word :) please.. :y
when you ask "where the money is gone" its pure politics.. when you decide where to spend money, its politics..
its the same for community or a group or a family.. actually its basically the science to determine how the cake must be shared..
as said by Aristotle "human is a political animal" ;D :y
so a union defending its members rights cant stay out of politics obviously :y :y :y
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
let alone all of it , even if some portion of it was distributed equally, millions of children wont die from hungerness, many old would live longer and many of us would have the chance to live a bit more healthy , and many wouldnt go bed at night with an empty stomach and so many woman wouldnt have to sell their bodies for few pennies :) :y
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Unions should be apolitical in a free and democratic society, actually in any society...
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Next 3 weeks? Wtf? ???
12.6 is good, many others I know get nothing :o
Compared to most of my Uni class mates, Sky's is one of the highest.
Law changed 2 or 3 years back, if employee puts in 5%, employer must put in 6% (% figures may be a % out), if more than 5(?) employees
Hummm, cause Sky lowered their rate since I joined. It used to be I put in 4, they put in 8. Which is what I am on.
Now it's you put in 3, they put in 6. Change came with new state pension thing, I chose not to opt out. So in effect I get 3 pensions. Apparently.
The state opted in thing is planning to end soon, under the current simpler pension reform.
And as you haven't built much into that, due to your age, you can pretty much write that off. I have a linky on my works laptop, so when I fire that up Friday, I'll dig it out.
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
let alone all of it , even if some portion of it was distributed equally, millions of children wont die from hungerness, many old would live longer and many of us would have the chance to live a bit more healthy , and many wouldnt go bed at night with an empty stomach and so many woman wouldnt have to sell their bodies for few pennies :) :y
I think you over-estimate the number of middle class and rich people cem...
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
let alone all of it , even if some portion of it was distributed equally, millions of children wont die from hungerness, many old would live longer and many of us would have the chance to live a bit more healthy , and many wouldnt go bed at night with an empty stomach and so many woman wouldnt have to sell their bodies for few pennies :) :y
I think you over-estimate the number of middle class and rich people cem...
I wish I am wrong.. and would be very glad to hear it :) :y
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
let alone all of it , even if some portion of it was distributed equally, millions of children wont die from hungerness, many old would live longer and many of us would have the chance to live a bit more healthy , and many wouldnt go bed at night with an empty stomach and so many woman wouldnt have to sell their bodies for few pennies :) :y
Get real Cem... there isn't a region on this planet that is unable to produce food...
The issue literally lies with a handful of individual tuesdays...
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Unions should be apolitical in a free and democratic society, actually in any society...
impossible even theoritically :-\ where many group together there will always be politics..
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
let alone all of it , even if some portion of it was distributed equally, millions of children wont die from hungerness, many old would live longer and many of us would have the chance to live a bit more healthy , and many wouldnt go bed at night with an empty stomach and so many woman wouldnt have to sell their bodies for few pennies :) :y
Get real Cem... there isn't a region on this planet that is unable to produce food...
The issue literally lies with a handful of individual tuesdays...
ı'm real ı'm afraid.. :( try unpainted news
[scratches head] probably you are reading only for UK :-\
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Really... where do you think most of Europes fruit comes from?
Answer: Africa and South America.
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Really... where do you think most of Europes fruit comes from?
Answer: Africa and South America.
Al, I'm not going to discuss the food production in Africa and south America.. but I simply tell you the facts.. search a bit, you will see :)
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My solution to the world being overpopulated is a mass cull.
Guessing I won't be voted into government though, sadly.
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
All is the most important word in this context Cem. If you think logically what would happen after it was redistributed,it answers many of the philosophical, practical and political questions which have been argued over for generations. ;)
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
All is the most important word in this context Cem. If you think logically what would happen after it was redistributed,it answers many of the philosophical, practical and political questions which have been argued over for generations. ;)
if all was redistributed world be a much better place without doubt with all parametrs you can imagine .. but for this to happen production tools (let it be a factory, refinery or any other) and banks must be owned by public.. not by the few..
otherwise as I explained in other threads, money will always flow upwards (downflow will be negligible) in pyramide and cause economical and social disasters again and again.. :( (as Marx stated)
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Quite right Cem, absolutely no point arguing about it :y
Individually we are responsible for our lives, the food we eat, our fortune, our misfortune, our place in the world. No one else, be they politicians, unions, dictators or even priests hold that responsibility. It is ours alone to bear.
That applies the world over.
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
All is the most important word in this context Cem. If you think logically what would happen after it was redistributed,it answers many of the philosophical, practical and political questions which have been argued over for generations. ;)
I'm sure Mr Orwell wrote a book about farm animals who took over a farm and look what happened there...
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Didn't end well for the senior union management iirc ;D
My solution to the world being overpopulated is a mass cull.
Guessing I won't be voted into government though, sadly.
I'd vote for that with one caveat... compulsory IQ test at 21. Anyone scoring below 100 becomes food.
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Quite right Cem, absolutely no point arguing about it :y
Individually we are responsible for our lives, the food we eat, our fortune, our misfortune, our place in the world. No one else, be they politicians, unions, dictators or even priests hold that responsibility. It is ours alone to bear.
That applies the world over.
I wish the world poltics and historical consequences were simple as that Al :( the "few" has collected all the power in hand and we masses are nothing more than a simple gear used and discarded when old.. but this will change.. one day..
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Believe it or not Cem you not only have the ability to buy into the Joneses makebelieve world and kill yourself trying, but also to reject it in its entirety...
Not sure where being a communist fits on that scale though :-\ actually being a cynical disaffected citizen must be quite frustrating...
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
All is the most important word in this context Cem. If you think logically what would happen after it was redistributed,it answers many of the philosophical, practical and political questions which have been argued over for generations. ;)
if all was redistributed world be a much better place without doubt with all parametrs you can imagine .. but for this to happen production tools (let it be a factory, refinery or any other) and banks must be owned by public.. not by the few..
otherwise as I explained in other threads, money will always flow upwards (downflow will be negligible) in pyramide and cause economical and social disasters again and again.. :( (as Marx stated)
If it all was redistributed, firstly every economy in the world would instantly collapse,but we will leave that to one side for the moment,as that could be blaimed on capitalism.
Initially,most people wouldn't bother going to work any more,as they would think they could afford not to bother. Some of us migh pay a visit to our local Ferrari dealership,but when we got there we would find that Ferrari prices had risen by 1000% overnight. They would have to,as they wouldn't be exclusive anymore,and would be equivalent in ral terms to a Ford Focus. Everyone could afford one,most people would want one,but they cant actually produce them in high numbers (even if they wanted to,so supply/demand would dictate the new price.
After a period of chaos,those with an entrepreneurial mindset would be buying/selling,doing deals and slowly but surely become richer than most other people. So would end up back where we are now,apart from the price of verything would have more 0,s on the end.
Of course he way of controlling this "for the common good" is for the state to take charge of it all.
Then, you have removal of personal responsibility,motivation,ambition,desire to progress,and an elite at the top of it all controlling not only all the money,but all the people,so a system which is much more flawed than the flawed capitalist sytem we had before.
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Sounds remarkably like something that might happen in Russia 96 years ago, or PRC post 1945 ::)
Oddly enough, both of which now have market economies of sorts...
Karl Marx must be soo proud ::)
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If all the money in the world was redistributed equally tomorrow Cem,what do you think the outcome would be ?
All is the most important word in this context Cem. If you think logically what would happen after it was redistributed,it answers many of the philosophical, practical and political questions which have been argued over for generations. ;)
if all was redistributed world be a much better place without doubt with all parametrs you can imagine .. but for this to happen production tools (let it be a factory, refinery or any other) and banks must be owned by public.. not by the few..
otherwise as I explained in other threads, money will always flow upwards (downflow will be negligible) in pyramide and cause economical and social disasters again and again.. :( (as Marx stated)
If it all was redistributed, firstly every economy in the world would instantly collapse,but we will leave that to one side for the moment,as that could be blaimed on capitalism.
Initially,most people wouldn't bother going to work any more,as they would think they could afford not to bother. Some of us migh pay a visit to our local Ferrari dealership,but when we got there we would find that Ferrari prices had risen by 1000% overnight. They would have to,as they wouldn't be exclusive anymore,and would be equivalent in ral terms to a Ford Focus. Everyone could afford one,most people would want one,but they cant actually produce them in high numbers (even if they wanted to,so supply/demand would dictate the new price.
After a period of chaos,those with an entrepreneurial mindset would be buying/selling,doing deals and slowly but surely become richer than most other people. So would end up back where we are now,apart from the price of verything would have more 0,s on the end.
Of course he way of controlling this "for the common good" is for the state to take charge of it all.
Then, you have removal of personal responsibility,motivation,ambition,desire to progress,and an elite at the top of it all controlling not only all the money,but all the people,so a system which is much more flawed than the flawed capitalist sytem we had before.
;D ;D ;D good story ;D ;D ;D :y
I was not sure but I'm now very sure that scaremongering (you like this word ;D ) is done in the depest biggest scales in capitalist systems.. ;D
dont know how to but really teaching a new way of thinking under different economic aspects is not that easy.. :-\
your hidden mistake is that under a different economical system ( not strictly a comy system)
a) you cant own production tools
b) you cant increase or decrease prices on your own (its done by the state)
c) assets can not have higher values than determined by the public/state
and question : why you have to remove personal responsibility,motivation,ambition,desire to progress ? please let us discard cold war era propoganda ;D :y is there no way to find/develop a better economical more equal system ? answering no is simply against science imo :) :y
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Sounds remarkably like something that might happen in Russia 96 years ago, or PRC post 1945 ::)
Oddly enough, both of which now have market economies of sorts...
Karl Marx must be soo proud ::)
who said they dont deviate from their planned economies under economic war conditions ?
can I remind PRC own substantial amount of US (fed) bonds so that US treats PRC to start war if they convert those bonds to euro ;D ;D
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terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired...
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Sounds remarkably like something that might happen in Russia 96 years ago, or PRC post 1945 ::)
Oddly enough, both of which now have market economies of sorts...
Karl Marx must be soo proud ::)
who said they dont deviate from their planned economies under economic war conditions ?
can I remind PRC own substantial amount of US (fed) bonds so that US treats PRC to start war if they convert those bonds to euro ;D ;D
Precisely my point ::)
Market always wins :y
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terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired...
Keeping you up? ;D
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Sounds remarkably like something that might happen in Russia 96 years ago, or PRC post 1945 ::)
Oddly enough, both of which now have market economies of sorts...
Karl Marx must be soo proud ::)
who said they dont deviate from their planned economies under economic war conditions ?
can I remind PRC own substantial amount of US (fed) bonds so that US treats PRC to start war if they convert those bonds to euro ;D ;D
Precisely my point ::)
Market always wins :y
market always wins ? huh ??? ;D so that market always having disasters causing people to loose homes, job everything and people commit suicide.. :( is that your ultimate solution ? I dont think so :)
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terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired...
Keeping you up? ;D
This thread nearly oppsing sent me to a 5 month hiberntion of sleep....so I thought I would try and poke the bear instead ::)
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terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired...
Keeping you up? ;D
This thread nearly oppsing sent me to a 5 month hiberntion of sleep....so I thought I would try and poke the bear instead ::)
;D
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Getting back to the original post. Apparently engineers at the refinery were earning up to £80,000 per annum - according to whats just been said on SKY news. ::)
And the plant has been losing £10 million per month. :o
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Getting back to the original post. Apparently engineers at the refinery were earning up to £80,000 per annum - according to whats just been said on SKY news. ::)
And the plant has been losing £10 million per month. :o
question is : how much was refinery earning per annum ;D :y
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And they were offered £15,000 each in compensation for changes to the pension scheme.
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And they were offered £15,000 each in compensation for changes to the pension scheme.
if there were no union they will be likely offered a single finger ;D ;D ;D
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Getting back to the original post. Apparently engineers at the refinery were earning up to £80,000 per annum - according to whats just been said on SKY news. ::)
And the plant has been losing £10 million per month. :o
question is : how much was refinery earning per annum ;D :y
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Losses of £150 million per year, for several years. ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10398563/Grangemouth-owners-Ineos-to-close-petrochemical-site.html
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Cem, unfortunately Shangri-La doesn't exist. Some people will have too little, some, will have too much. Some people will be content, some will want more, some will yearn for less. Some people will obsequiously happy, and others will be overwhelmingly depressed, suicidal even.
That's life.
No union, politician or philosopher will ever change that.
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Getting back to the original post. Apparently engineers at the refinery were earning up to £80,000 per annum - according to whats just been said on SKY news. ::)
And the plant has been losing £10 million per month. :o
question is : how much was refinery earning per annum ;D :y
Losses of £150 million per year, for several years. ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10398563/Grangemouth-owners-Ineos-to-close-petrochemical-site.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10398563/Grangemouth-owners-Ineos-to-close-petrochemical-site.html)
a refinery loosing 150 million per year and for many years .. 3 questions arise.. with the current fuel prices how can this be possible ?
was this refinery in the same conditions from the very beginning ?
and was the management in beauty sleep and how they could continue this for years ? ::)
something unusual imo :-\
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Yep. From what I heard on the radio
What you heard ... not actual fact
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Oh dear one more post to 1,000 . . . and some initiation ceremony involving lubricants :o
Looks like the lubricants won't be coming from Grangemouth though Rog! :-\
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The unions refused to face economic reality,and refused point blank to accept it.
Could it be that: The Company failed to anticipate economic reality ... etc etc ... ???
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So the government will borrow the money to fund the pension schemes and make future generations pay the bill,which is morally wrong imo.
And why not?
Is not the Government democratically elected?
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and was the management in beauty sleep and how they could continue this for years ? ::)
something unusual imo :-\
Great minds think alike Cem! ;)
The downfall of British industry ... poor management >:(
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and was the management in beauty sleep and how they could continue this for years ? ::)
something unusual imo :-\
Great minds think alike Cem! ;)
The downfall of British industry ... poor management >:(
yep :y
similiar things are done also in our industry.. and newspapers are also full of similiar news.. factories/refineries are going downhill , costs must be cut blah blah blah.. same film same story.. :(
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Yep. From what I heard on the radio
What you heard ... not actual fact
Which is why I wrote "from what I heard...." ;)
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good night all .. its 01 20 am here :y
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So the government will borrow the money to fund the pension schemes and make future generations pay the bill,which is morally wrong imo.
And why not?
Is not the Government democratically elected?
Sort of yes,but morally bankrupt.They do these things to buy the votes of greedy people. Commiting future generations to paying for the demands of the current one is very difficult to justify imo. The future generations don't get a democratic vote on it,as they aren't born yet.
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good night all .. its 01 20 am here :y
Night Cem. :y
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Getting back to the original post. Apparently engineers at the refinery were earning up to £80,000 per annum - according to whats just been said on SKY news. ::)
And the plant has been losing £10 million per month. :o
question is : how much was refinery earning per annum ;D :y
Losses of £150 million per year, for several years. ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10398563/Grangemouth-owners-Ineos-to-close-petrochemical-site.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10398563/Grangemouth-owners-Ineos-to-close-petrochemical-site.html)
a refinery loosing 150 million per year and for many years .. 3 questions arise.. with the current fuel prices how can this be possible ?
was this refinery in the same conditions from the very beginning ?
and was the management in beauty sleep and how they could continue this for years ? ::)
something unusual imo :-\
A staggeringly high percentage of fuel prices here is taxation.It continued for years,because management have been trying to negotiate for years with a very militant Union,who wouldn't see reason,and assumed the management were bluffing. Despite the figures being in black & white.
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and was the management in beauty sleep and how they could continue this for years ? ::)
something unusual imo :-\
Great minds think alike Cem! ;)
The downfall of British industry ... poor weak management and greedy power crazy union barons >:(
Fixed. :)
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The downfall of British industry ... poor weak management and trade union leaders/members who ain't prepared to suffer the consequent fall-out.
^^^ Re-fixed ^^^ ... gotta agree to disagree with you on this.
Gonna watch Doc Martin on 'catch-up' now, so "nighty-night" Albs! ;)
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BSkyBs pension contributions are healthy for a private company, 8% while I put in 4%. They had a new online calculator, it's scary how much you need for a "healthy" pension. Even something modest such as £15k pension in today's terms, I needed to increase my contributions massively. I've now increased to 8% myself, so 16 combined. Even this is not enough, I need to go further soon.
Think people in pubic sector are dreaming if they think their pensions can continue the way they are, so many need to wake up.
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Don't forget that such a pension is offset against poorer salary than is paid in the private sector, in my job very few people in the private sector deal with the 'risk' on a day to day basis that I do. Those few private companies that do, would pay me £10 - 15k more than I get in the public sector, which, if I were younger, is where I would move to now, as it will be the future............. ;) ;)
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Public sector salaries are higher than private sector salaries. ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10370699/Public-sector-workers-earn-3200-more-than-those-in-private-sector.html
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/publications/category/item/public-and-private-sector-pay-2013-update
Tunnies right Im afraid.Its not possible for the country to ever afford the current pension arrangements for the public sector in any foreseeable circumstances.
There are around 5.7 million people officially employed in the public sector.The true figure may be considerably higher,as quite a lot of jobs which used to be officially public sector are now disguised as private sector jobs,for political reasons.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/public-sector-employment/q1-2013/stb-pse-2013q1.html
The private sector consists of around 24 million jobs (many of which are minimum wage these days),so the figures for providing the salary packages and pension liabilities from taxation of the private sector are never going to add up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2246878/Record-24m-jobs-private-sector-state-payroll-shrinks-smallest-number-decade.html
The number of people employed in the public sector has decreased,but the total wages bill has risen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20561444
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Whatever....... ::) ::) Not even going there, Tunnie would die at the decisions I Have to make, as would you.........each to their own........ :y :y
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Public sector salaries are higher than private sector salaries. ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10370699/Public-sector-workers-earn-3200-more-than-those-in-private-sector.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10370699/Public-sector-workers-earn-3200-more-than-those-in-private-sector.html)
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/publications/category/item/public-and-private-sector-pay-2013-update (http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/publications/category/item/public-and-private-sector-pay-2013-update)
Albs, I can see your point.. but my experience thought me to examine those kinds of reports with some certain degree of suspicion.. as I know those study results depend on who ask for them.. ::) I checked the report and cant see the detail of actual numbers of workers.. An exact study including all workers not that easy to complete.. honestly this report does not smell objective in the first place :-\
in a system which finds all sorts of bollix excuses to discard workers or to decrease their salaries, pensions, you can easily find /create fake results.. because actually the system is a big lie in it.. >:(
I'll check other links when I have time
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I would have loved to have been behind the scenes on this one. My bet is a secret deal has been struck between Salmond and the owners and it will reopen
1. We have witnessed history in the making. Unions emasculated.
2. I dare say the people behind the plant have gold plated pensions but we aren't supposed to notice or talk about that.
Funny how Britain is gearing up for thousands dying again this winter because they cannot afford to have their heating on despite Britain being a very wealthy country :o
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Funny how Britain is gearing up for thousands dying again this winter because they cannot afford to have their heating on despite Britain being a very wealthy country :o
Got to pay for the Windmills somehow. It's not like they'll generate enough to pay for themselves. ::)
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Yep, deal struck!
"It added that Unite had agreed to taking no strike action for three years, moving to a "modern" pension scheme and accepting a three-year pay freeze.
Ineos also confirmed it would invest a further £300m in the site's long-term future. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24671184
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I would have loved to have been behind the scenes on this one. My bet is a secret deal has been struck between Salmond and the owners and it will reopen
1. We have witnessed history in the making. Unions emasculated.
2. I dare say the people behind the plant have gold plated pensions but we aren't supposed to notice or talk about that.
Funny how Britain is gearing up for thousands dying again this winter because they cannot afford to have their heating on despite Britain being a very wealthy country :o
A pretty safe bet, Varche, as the deal was announced before your post. ;D
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I would have loved to have been behind the scenes on this one. My bet is a secret deal has been struck between Salmond and the owners and it will reopen
1. We have witnessed history in the making. Unions emasculated.
2. I dare say the people behind the plant have gold plated pensions but we aren't supposed to notice or talk about that.
Funny how Britain is gearing up for thousands dying again this winter because they cannot afford to have their heating on despite Britain being a very wealthy country :o
We could give pensioners and the vulnerable free heating if we scrapped foreign aid >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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We could give pensioners and the vulnerable free heating if we scrapped foreign aid
In a simplistic, honest world, yeah. But we all know that most foreign aid is in return for some favour or other :-X
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We could give pensioners and the vulnerable free heating if we scrapped foreign aid
In a simplistic, honest world, yeah. But we all know that most foreign aid is in return for some favour or other :-X
I call that corruption >:( >:(