Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: razzo on 30 October 2013, 12:43:16
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Anyone know if there is any difference in quality forgetting the bushes & balljoints just the quality of the pressed steel bit, are oe better than pattern parts?
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I think the likes of Lemforder and Melye are up there with OE parts.
Some of the cheaper ones I've seen seem to rust quickly, and look to be inferior.
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We have yet to find a reliable source of patter bushes afaik. Other than;
Merle
Lemforder
Gm
...it's not worth risking anything else, apart from Polly of course.
Metalwork, Gm seem most meaty, so tend to refurb those if at all possible. But I haven't noticed any meaningful differences in them structurally other purely visual examination.
There may be a genuine case for buying the cheapest bones possible and pressing decent reaward bushes and poly into those. If factoring in fitting poly from the outset. I haven't done the maths, not sure in current prices...
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I think Razzo uses his own polys (forward and aft), thus not interested in the bushes themselves.
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I think Razzo uses his own polys (forward and aft), thus not interested in the bushes themselves.
Got pattern ones fitted with poly bushes & think i have managed to snap the wishbone :o
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I think Razzo uses his own polys (forward and aft), thus not interested in the bushes themselves.
Got pattern ones fitted with poly bushes & think i have managed to snap the wishbone :o
Hit something, or just happened? Wonder, if latter, if that rear vertical may play a part?
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That was my concern with them, being brutally honest. :(
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Not hit anything bumped up droped kerb about 1 inch high not sure if its rear bush or crap quality pattern wishbones
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Not hit anything bumped up droped kerb about 1 inch high not sure if its rear bush or crap quality pattern wishbones
Methinks you need to get one of your cameras under there, and post up some piccies :y
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Hmmm... Will jack mine up when I get home :y
Any idea where they've failed :-\
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Awaiting recovery at the moment will post a pic soon
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Guessing somewhere similar to this
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/10947EDB-6FA5-496A-AA2A-993A6262252E-4236-0000012CE7B544E2_zps6ca7d807.jpg)
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Pm incoming Chris :y
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snapped at the rear housing, fortunately i was moving less than walking speed as i was parking the car 10 mins earlier i was at 60mph on the A13. Wishbones are 2 years old & aftermarket
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0102_zpsc598d8d8.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/razzo_photo/media/NO2Z0102_zpsc598d8d8.jpg.html)
got a refurbed pair to ready to fit just not sure i trust em
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Looking at that, that may be due to the poly rear.... ....as feared
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How many miles had they done?
What state is the otherside in?
Looking at that, that may be due to the poly rear.... ....as feared
Arm could have been made stronger by welding all the way round the bush location. No evidence there of it having ever been joined at the flat surface :-\
For reference/comparison, my o/s rear bush mounting...
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/IMG_20131030_152358_zpsa0074e54.jpg)
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/IMG_20131030_152443_zpsc2275d60.jpg)
:-\
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Judging by the rust, they have been almost failed for some time :-\
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been on for about 2 years & about 45k driving mostly in London & home counties so plenty of speed humps & dodging other suicidal motorists but when i fitted them handling & tyre wear were hugely improved so not giving up yet
Al do you have the ring welded all round it as i think these were just tacked at 6 & 9 oclock & if so where did you get them from
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Mine have been in about ten months, 21k. Arms are pattern ones, and I think have almost continous welds. From memory, they're Firstline, but obviously have been polybushed at both ends.
Have a set of arms from ATP in germany, which are un branded, no markings at all, and look very similar to yours... quite rusty where the welds are... easy to see looking at them how they could fail with stiffer bushes :-\
There are differences between the various arms I have fitted, they way that bush ring is fitted being the obvious item.
I would suggest buying from your local factors and if necessary, have someone weld a continous bead around that ring :y
Might also be possible to weld a strip around the arm to form a box section to strengthen the arm further, but clearance around the back of the rear bush could be an issue with that :-\
The other thing I will say is that the rear polybush I have fitted is totally different to yours, so not sure how exactly they compare :-\
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I have some rather scabby articles in the garage, so scabby that pics don't show where the weld ends and the rust starts, but they are GM with the white print still showing on the metal work.
The weld is still at 6 and 9 o'clock, but the length of the Weald is much longer covering 45degrees of the circumference in a ( ) fashion. So considerably more weld present than those failed.
To me that pic makes the point that any replacement bush should be based on a ball joint design. As the original. As unhelpful as that may be, is it worth the risk...?
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snapped at the rear housing, fortunately i was moving less than walking speed as i was parking the car 10 mins earlier i was at 60mph on the A13. Wishbones are 2 years old & aftermarket
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0102_zpsc598d8d8.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/razzo_photo/media/NO2Z0102_zpsc598d8d8.jpg.html)
got a refurbed pair to ready to fit just not sure i trust em
I'd very much suggest that that fracture has been a long time coming! Judging by the rust on the split, it has been open to the elements for a while.
I had a very similar thing happen to me with a Bilstein Shock which sheared at a particularly sharp corner. Fortunately, nothing else was damaged and I was able to get the car on a recovery truck.
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Indeed... when was the last MoT?
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Whoever is selling those wishbones wants putting out of business imo.Thats scarily dangerous for something two years old.
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Have been keeping an eye on mine due to concerns about the effects of a near solid bush, and so far no signs of
imminent failure and damage/cracks/tears.
Looking at that one though, they've been cracked a while, the only clean part being the upper forward side of the arm, which would suggest that three pieces of metal have failed unnoticed :o
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Whoever is selling those wishbones wants putting out of business imo.Thats scarily dangerous for something two years old.
Razzo was testing a different bush, but there was a school of thought that it may reduce how well the wishbone could pivot, hence may have caused extra strain/fatigue on that area.
Until he is able to try it on a better quality wishbone, we'll never really know, as it may be a genuine wishbone fault, or that that wishbone was not up to the demands of the different bush.
Razzo - have you had the opportunity to closely inspect the other side, is there any worrying signs there?
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The alternative bushes are visible in the pic, btw.
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Razzo - have you had the opportunity to closely inspect the other side, is there any worrying signs there?
not had a chance yet but both wishbones will be removed at the weekend
car was MOT'd in january
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So nine months from fine to totally fubar :-\
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Razzo - have you had the opportunity to closely inspect the other side, is there any worrying signs there?
not had a chance yet but both wishbones will be removed at the weekend
car was MOT'd in january
Keep us informed :y
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When I posted on ABS regarding poly bushes a few years back, a couple of the guys on there said that they would not use poly bushes on wishbones any more due to snapping them.
Sorry that I can't offer any more info on whether it was just one bush fitted or both, or even what car they were fitted to. :-\
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Managed to replace the wishbones with vx rear bushes this time, was not impressed with the weld around the ring on the old wishbones as it appears its only tacked in 2 places
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0363_zps5710ef3e.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/razzo_photo/media/NO2Z0363_zps5710ef3e.jpg.html)
& the crack started just where the weld finished. Cracks also started to appear on the other wishbone, again where the weld finished
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0406_zpsce71dda8.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/razzo_photo/media/NO2Z0406_zpsce71dda8.jpg.html)
so all in all i think the rear poly bush has hastened the demise of a crap quality wishbone, don't know if the weld was continuous it would have been a different story but you live & learn
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Thanks for posting Razzo.
That last pic also shows where the bush is rubbing on the top of the subframe, and presumably the same is true on the reverse/under side too. In that the wishbone is deforming the bush to that extent. Something that is also the case on Als bushes as well. Although iirc his have a softer compound yellow poly sandwiching black hrad poly in the centre.
It's also clear that the rearward bush must be a ball joint based design in order to maintain the vertical pivot point, AND allow it to pivot without interference from the subframe.
Looking at ball joints of any sort on the market, or indeed any ball joint that Is not rubber/glued together in effect, I wonder do you see a way to modify or improve things to allow full range of movement, give clearance from the subframe, and control the pivot pint centre, without modifying the subframe to allow clearance and not have the ball joint pop out? As has happened on some front wheel drive vertical poly bushes.
It's a big ask, by the looks.
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Here's some failed attempts of mine. Btw... :)
The metal parts are from failed oe bushes.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/91F37D9E-3D64-4146-9473-B42B6FE3C7D6-7980-000002E941AEF081_zps82027588.jpg)
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The problem you are having is,movement or not.
the reason the wish bone has cracked is lack of movement,the up right bush is not allowing the bone to move enough so it cracks at weakest point,if you put std bushes in the front and poly in the rear it shouldn't crack and vice versa. And if you weld it all the way round it will either fracture elsewhere or place stress fracture's elsewhere on the chassis.
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Hence it needs to ball joint based. :)
...IMO anyway.
Wonder should we start another thread. :-[ As Razzo is after stronger metal work I guess.
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Right gloves off, no holds barred....
The bushes I chose are the exact diameter and overall height of tbe GM originals, they press in minimun of fuss...
My first attempt was...
http://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/997.html
These were fitted intact, but proved quite soft around the edges, with minimal control. 1500 miles experience.
Second attempt was a hybrid of theses...
http://www.powerflex.co.uk/black-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/8537.html
With a twist... the 'flange' of the standard yellow bush was used, with the core of the Black bush... much better control, almost perfect behaviour when pressing on ragging the car, but a bit 'ifbutmaybe' in general driving, like a stock bush at 75-80% :-\
Next step is to fit the same 'Black' bushes.
But I have a couple of modifications to consider following Chris's comments in April and Razzos latest issues ::)
Fit the Black bushes, but sliced in half so the 'flanges' can move relative to the centre bush, reducing the rigidity slightly, but allowing some slip whilst supporting the arm vertically. So hopefully this will be the final solution, along with ensuring that the weld around the bush support is continuous and both sides so that the arm itself doesn't flex so much.
This will always be a compromise, the ideal being to get more than 100k from the rear bushes...
So far my stage two development has managed over 20k in 8 months, yet Razzos alternatives have done 45k in two years yet have killed the arms :-\ there is also evidence of 'polishing' of the subframe, but tbh that is to be expected given the shape/size of the flange.
Also, importantly, my arms still have FULL movement :y
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Al's bushes. Black poly centre, with softer yellow from the originals sandwiching top and bottom. (Bottom not shown)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/886C5F65-DA96-48A9-9777-957142F01ABA-7980-000003094085B487_zps4c92b886.jpg)
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Thanks Chris :y
The next step would be to replace the yellow with black, possibly with shorter springs so that the arm sits nearer level :-\
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Any news to report regarding Taxi Al's, Razzo's, or Chrisgixer's rear/vertical polybushes? I'm a Catera owner in the USA and have already installed the available Powerflex bushes (control arm & stabilizer) and want to complete the front end upgrade with poly rear/verts. I have Koni Sport adjustable struts installed and GTO/Monaro front brake calipers on her but the OEM GM bush is a pimple on the whole set-up. I have a set of rear GTO/Monaro eccentric polybushes with adjustable camber waiting to go on but would like to finish the front end first. No one over here is doing anything to improve the Catera over here as far as the suspension is concerned so I turn to you Omega owners. Thanks for listening.
(http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/12/45/10/95/29049810.jpg)
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I think Ex Taxi Al has done some further experiments, with a bit more success...
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Hi Elvin.
First off, don't fit the eccentric rear poly bushes to an omega. They are for Carlton models or cars that don't have the rear track rod adjusters fitted. The track rod on omega relies on the softer rubber bushes to allow the track rid to pull the camber/toe over. If poly is fitted there is a very real chance the rear suspension will lock up.
Front wishbone rearward vertical bush, there are no official parts available to replace it. The only options are oe replacement items made of rubber from the likes of Gm, Lemforderor and Meyle who do a "heavy duty" version :-\
Speaking of Meyle, I have spent a good while looking around for a suitable poly ball joint cross referenced with the sizes given on the Meyle web site for omega;
Meyle rear wishbone bush
614 035 0010
Height 46
Inner diameter 14
Outer diameter 49
Sadly no other vehicle I have found has a remotely similar sized bush. Much less one that is likely to have a poly version. Closest appears to be Corser C, but that has a 12mm inner diameter bolt hole, with no room to machine it out. Plus the outside diameter us way too big anyway. ...I wouldn't use a smaller bolt on a car this size either.
So that leaves some diy versions by members here.
These consist of solid lumps of Polly. While initial reports seem good, the sad fact is they are not a ball joint design, which is what the oe design is essentially, as it has to cope with an amount of yaw in the original design.
Basically the solid lump design stresses the metal work around the the bush, to the point that there has been case where the wishbone snapped.
Taxi Al has a similar design of black poly roll bar bushes from a ford Sierra cosworth machined to fit and sandwhiched end top and bottom.
I think Al would agree its not something that can be recommended to others with easy fit long term use in mind, due to stress in the metalwork, not to mention the restrictive movement making fitting the strut a challenge. Its a two man job.
But I'm sure he'll be along to comment. :)
The key to finding the front polys, was to cross reference the oe bush with other makes, and see if their is poly version for that vehicle. In the case of power flex they made a poly version for a BMW model of the same dimensions, m5 e42 iirc but I could be wrong. Hence they where then able to sell a version for the omega.
Sadly powerflex don't see enough sales in the omega to warrant a production run just yet. We are way down the list of profit making vehicles, as was found when we asked them to make a rear poly donut for us. They took measurements, but sales team dictate production runs and there's nothing for us yet.
However Taxi Al did find a poly rear donut by Pedders for the monaro that fits. So we don't need power flex now anyway. ;)
My point is, though, sadly, that non of the oe bush makers web sites show an oe bush that cross references with any other vehicle with the same omega dimensions above, that I can see.
If you see one, or find one that fits, please god let us know. :)
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Hi Elvin :y
The Pedders kit you need for the rear subframe is EP1145, Rear end pack Monaro/GTO Harrop Diff Cover.
As for the front wishbone vertical bush, well...
Al's bushes. Black poly centre, with softer yellow from the originals sandwiching top and bottom. (Bottom not shown)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/886C5F65-DA96-48A9-9777-957142F01ABA-7980-000003094085B487_zps4c92b886.jpg)
Theses are the bushes I have used...
http://www.powerflex.co.uk/black-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/8541.html (http://www.powerflex.co.uk/black-series/product-details/Front+Outer+Track+Control+Arm+Bush/8541.html)
As you can see, they come as a pair of halves. Each half is sliced horizontally, as per the picture above, this allows some lateral slippage, something other bushes lack. Ignore the yellow poly in Chris's picture, black looks the same but is infinitely firmer, but it shows the arrangement nicely. The bush dimensions are identical to the original OE bush... the poly is the same height, and the core that sits in the arm is the same diameter, and is an interference fit rather sloppy :y
The Sierra sold in the US briefly as either the Merkaur XR4i or (I think)as the Taurus XR4, so if you have a local Powerflex stockist...
The stiffness of the arm with these bushes is a concern, particularly since Razzo broke a wishbone mounting a kerb :-\ In the name of balance, I have found cracks on a cheapy wishbone what I had rebushed with genuine GM/VX, so cracking isn't necessarily a direct result of fitting polys. Some wishbones are clearly better made than others, unfortunately there is no way of telling until you open the packaging.
This information is currently just that, information. What I have done is purely experimental and cannot be recommended yet. But first impressions are encouraging, the steering and brakes feel more connected, and the ride is firmer, but not too crashy, even with 18"s fitted. My car has done just over 1500 miles since fitting the black flanges two weeks ago, and is going in for four tyres on Monday, followed by a Geometry set up on Tuesday, so I shall take several pictures and have a good look around the vertical bush area for signs of bending/cracking...
I shall report back on Tuesday :y
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As promised...
Off side from rear/below
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/DSC_0241_zpsftp20nxm.jpg)
Off side from in front/above
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/DSC_0244_zps5o1zwkmk.jpg)
Near side from rear/above
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/DSC_0240_zpsmpihzzvf.jpg)
Near side from below/front
(http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/DSC_0238_zpsywtidf8h.jpg)
No evidence of stress on either arm so far :-\ Driving report to follow...
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Hundred miles later and feels like a different car 8) diff mounts and rear shocks need doing, but might be a winner... Will see how the bushes perform over the next few thousand miles, but have been in place for 10 months... Obviously main concern is the stress on the wishbones, but picks look promising in that regard given Razzos failed in 8 months :-\
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Yep, had a spin in alas car today. Drove ok, once the tyre pressures where dropped to unloaded. Back end is loose, hopefully its the dif block torn causing that after some nump at a garage jacked on the dif.
Did I mention, don't jack on the dif.
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Here's something I found on the PowerFlex site. Could this be used as a substitute for the damned Rear/Vertical Bushing? It's a Heim Joint end of sorts. They make it for the Cadillac BLS. Might be the answer for us.
http://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-series/product-details/Rear+Upper+Arm+Outer+Bush/1974.html
(http://www.powerflex.co.uk/resize_image.php?image=PFR80-1211.jpg&sku=PFR80-1211)
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Hi Elvin
Yeah I've been in contact with Powerflex a year or so ago. Main problem seems to be the omega has a 14mm bolt hole. Almost all of there ball joint type rearward bushes are for much more popular front wheel drive cars with a 12mm bolt hole.
With the size and weight of the omega I'm not sure I fancy fitting a smaller bolt, especially the way some members wang these cars about.
Meyle web site lists the p no. And dimensions of the oe rubber rearward bush
614 035 0010
Height 46
Inner diameter 14
Outer diameter 49
The only bush I can see that (Meyle) they make, while cross referencing sizes, that comes close is Corsa c that is also 46mm high, but the outer diameter is way too big at 60mm with a 12mm bolt hole.
Unfortunately the omega rearward bush does not cross reference with any other vehicle, the hope being that a more popular car might have a poly bush in production, like the BMW fronts.
Also, the amount of vertical travel on some of the more basic designs, like golf iirc, means there's also a chance of the ball popping out of the bush, so a metal case type is much preferred I guess. If only a suitable size could be found. :(
I haven't checked their web site for a few months now, so they may have released some new products recently that might work.
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I neither have the equipment nor the skill to do this but has anyone given thought to welding a strip of steel around the outer edge of the wishbone? It would need to be an equivalent gauge and be welded all around the part of the wishbone the bushing sits in, not just at its end. It shouldn't be any wider than the wishbone's existing flange as to avoid interfering with the chassis when pivoting. This would maybe eliminate the flex imparted to the wishbone and focus it at the bushing where it belongs. You can see below where the reinforcement should go. Just a thought in case that bushing I suggested doesn't work out.
(http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=1147242&imageurl=http%3A//www.rockauto.com/info/Spicer/5071237-4.jpg)
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I have a selection of wishbones here, and some are much better made than others, in that gm bones have a jigsaw/or dove tail type lock in the ends of the ring to join the circular strip that forms the housing/holds the bush in, where as others have no attempt to join that section at all. :o
Generally speaking, non of the bones are welded around the complete circumference in the area around the bush housing. So a solid lump poly bush is always going to stress the arm.
To answer your question, yes. Al brought me a set of bones to weld up, it wasn't too successful due to inexperience with welding and a faulty welder, but the idea was to strengthen the welds where Razzo's broke.
However, personally, having seen where these bones bend in an axle end on impact with a kerb, I'm quite certain that strengthening the welds around the bush would transfer the flex to this crumple zone. The arm will snap elsewhere IMO. Specifically the thin area about an inch away from the edge of the rear bush. :(
Although that area could be strengthened, I guess.
Re previous post on poly cased bushes. The height of the body of the bush is also a limiting factor as pivoting might see it collide with the subframe.
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Looking at the meat on those alternative bushes, I dont see drilling them out to 14mm being a big issue.
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Even though the wall of the spacer is wasted? :-\
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See reply #18 re welding...
And replies #41/42 for a working bush :y
Looking at the link, that Cadillac bush is only 47mm in diameter, so is 2mm too small :'(
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Even though the wall of the spacer is wasted? :-\
Yes, more than enough meat and surface area there. :y
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See reply #18 re welding...
And replies #41/42 for a working bush :y
Looking at the link, that Cadillac bush is only 47mm in diameter, so is 2mm too small :'(
Could have a metal band pressed in around it. But bolt size and depth of the metal body on full tilt are more of an issue.
I don't suppose there's any dimensions available? As I rekon by the time that wasted spacer is drilled out to 14mm the thin end will be drilled away to nout, personally. As that looks less than 1mm at the thin end, compared to 3 or 4mm at the widest.
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Chris, if you click the link and the download the fitting instructions, there's a clear picture of it assembled... drilling it out is the least of the concerns :-\
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What about a rose-joint and put it into a poly-sleeve..
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What about a rose-joint and put it into a poly-sleeve..
It needs to prevent vertical movement of the arm over the bush, whilst allowing the arm clearance to pivot around the axis of the front bush, no mean feat :-\
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See reply #18 re welding...
And replies #41/42 for a working bush :y
Looking at the link, that Cadillac bush is only 47mm in diameter, so is 2mm too small :'(
Could have a metal band pressed in around it. But bolt size and depth of the metal body on full tilt are more of an issue.
I don't suppose there's any dimensions available? As I rekon by the time that wasted spacer is drilled out to 14mm the thin end will be drilled away to nout, personally. As that looks less than 1mm at the thin end, compared to 3 or 4mm at the widest.
And?
So you lose 1-2mm off the length, no big deal.
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See reply #18 re welding...
And replies #41/42 for a working bush :y
Looking at the link, that Cadillac bush is only 47mm in diameter, so is 2mm too small :'(
Could have a metal band pressed in around it. But bolt size and depth of the metal body on full tilt are more of an issue.
I don't suppose there's any dimensions available? As I rekon by the time that wasted spacer is drilled out to 14mm the thin end will be drilled away to nout, personally. As that looks less than 1mm at the thin end, compared to 3 or 4mm at the widest.
And?
So you lose 1-2mm off the length, no big deal.
If it clears the body, and the body doesn't clout the subframe as the wish bone tilts, then yes, no big deal at all.
The spacers are that shape to for clearance IMO.
Don't get me wrong, I hope it works, but..... :-\
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Slap the centre in the lathe, bore to the right diameter, then turn a collar for the outside. Job done, bish bash bosh.
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I hate to throw more fuel on this fire but I found poly/ball joints on an off-road site. They use Chrisgixer's method of a steel ball insert sandwiched between 2 poly races, inside a steel casing. The bolt has a zerk fitting for lubricating the ball. They come is 2 flavors:
2 inch (50.8mm) OD w/ 7/16 inch (11.1125mm) bolt
2.5 inch (63.5mm) OD w/9/16 inch (14.2875) bolt
Neither comes close to our serving our purpose but here's the kicker. They are rebuildable, all the parts are available separately. They use snap-rings and washers to lock the ball and races in place. Maybe we could combine the 2 inch OD with the 9/16 inch ball and races to make one bushing that with a little machining would solve our problem. The outer case is meant to be welded to fabricated control arms and looks pretty beefy. It should stand up to a little shaving to bring it down to 49mm. Likewise the 2.5 in. poly races could be shaved down to fit the 2 in. casing. They are designed for the rigors of off-road duty so the should hold up nicely on-road. What do you think?
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Fabrication-Tools/Flex-Joints.aspx?catID=86&subCat=528&ptID=101460&pg=1 (http://www.4wheelparts.com/Fabrication-Tools/Flex-Joints.aspx?catID=86&subCat=528&ptID=101460&pg=1)
2 in./11mm:
(http://www.4wheelparts.com/aux_incl/images.ashx?i=KU70001.jpg&partNo=DAY&w=400&h=400)
2.5 in./14.3mm:
(http://www.4wheelparts.com/aux_incl/images.ashx?i=KU70000.jpg&partNo=DAY&w=400&h=400)
Exploded View:
(http://www.4wheelparts.com/aux_incl/images.ashx?i=CE9110.jpg&partNo=CUR&w=400&h=400)
9/16 in./14.3mm Ball:
(http://www.4wheelparts.com/aux_incl/images.ashx?i=RM13630.jpg&partNo=R%2fE&w=400&h=400)
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I've hit the jackpot today! If we can't find a way to use one these flex-joints or poly-joints for our cars then we may as well give up. The poly-joint is similar to razzo's method but the poly insert is shaped with voids to provide room for flex. Plus it uses the zerk bolt for lubrication at add extra slip like the GM bushing's silicon goop.
http://www.daystarsuspensionparts.com/universal-flex-joints.asp
Daystar KU70001BK 2.0 Inch Poly Flex Joint
(http://www.daystarsuspensionparts.com/prodimages/Daystar/DSKU70000BK_lg.png)
Daystar KU70003BK 2.0 Inch Poly Joint
(http://www.daystarsuspensionparts.com/prodimages/Daystar/DSKU70003BK_lg.png)
Greasable Bolts:
http://www.daystarsuspensionparts.com/Universal-Greaseable-Bolts.asp
(http://www.daystarsuspensionparts.com/prodimages/Daystar/KU02009_lg.png)
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I want to believe, I really do... but...
1. The smaller one would be perfect, the core needs 2mm shaved off either end. No biggy.
2. The outer diameter of 1.87" translates to 47mm so 2mm too small. Bugger.
3. What application is this designed for? Will the loads force it apart as Chris found with his hybrid ones?
4. Will the hollow bolt survive the fitting torque and operating loads?
:-\
Looking at the latest link, the top one is indeed promising, just needs a turn on a lathe to drop the OD to 49mm :y Questions 3and 4 still stand though...
The bottom suggestion offers little or no gain over the Black Sierra TCA bushes I have fitted
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I think I can answer numbers 3 & 4. These things are made for big fat American 4X4s and you know us 'Muricans love to bash our trucks over hill and dale (not me of course). I'm sure they'll hold up to us wannabe sporty car racers. ;D
I love the tech of the Poly-Flex with its shiny silver ball ( I like shiny things) but 12mm bolt bothers me. Mixing up parts from the 2 in. and 2.5 in. and modifying them all to fit together is an extra pain & expense, and then it might not work for us.
The simpler Poly-Joint's steel case could easily be shaved down to 49mm and its poly insert drilled to take the bigger 14mm bolt w/tube. The voids around the insert would allow it room to flex and deform. The TCA bushings are designed as pivot joints and therefore not as flexible when used in the vertical position. Considering its intended use as an off-road joint, maybe the firmness of the insert is less then the ones you and razzo are using, lessening the bending force on the wishbone. Maybe.
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Slap the centre in the lathe, bore to the right diameter, then turn a collar for the outside. Job done, bish bash bosh.
Away you go then. £115 to find out :)
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I think I can answer numbers 3 & 4. These things are made for big fat American 4X4s and you know us 'Muricans love to bash our trucks over hill and dale (not me of course). I'm sure they'll hold up to us wannabe sporty car racers. ;D
I love the tech of the Poly-Flex with its shiny silver ball ( I like shiny things) but 12mm bolt bothers me. Mixing up parts from the 2 in. and 2.5 in. and modifying them all to fit together is an extra pain & expense, and then it might not work for us.
The simpler Poly-Joint's steel case could easily be shaved down to 49mm and its poly insert drilled to take the bigger 14mm bolt w/tube. The voids around the insert would allow it room to flex and deform. The TCA bushings are designed as pivot joints and therefore not as flexible when used in the vertical position. Considering its intended use as an off-road joint, maybe the firmness of the insert is less then the ones you and razzo are using, lessening the bending force on the wishbone. Maybe.
The TCA bushes that I am using don't stress the arms in same way as Razzos blocks, as they allow the full range of movement. They are a push fit, and are the same diameter and height as the original GM bush.
The issue with the simpler ones you suggest is that no one knows how much the flex/deform, which is how it has taken 4 stages (including Chris' ) to get to what's fitted on mine. They are however the only ones that might fit the wishbone, the others being too small :-\
I'm struggling to see where those bushes might be used on a 4x4 :-[ axle locating rod perhaps :-\
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Slap the centre in the lathe, bore to the right diameter, then turn a collar for the outside. Job done, bish bash bosh.
Away you go then. £115 to find out :)
Sod that, I'm fine with my Elite handling like a barge.. ;D (and have new GM bushes in the boot of the M3..)
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The TCA bushes that I am using don't stress the arms in same way as Razzos blocks, as they allow the full range of movement. They are a push fit, and are the same diameter and height as the original GM bush.
The issue with the simpler ones you suggest is that no one knows how much the flex/deform, which is how it has taken 4 stages (including Chris' ) to get to what's fitted on mine. They are however the only ones that might fit the wishbone, the others being too small :-\
I'm struggling to see where those bushes might be used on a 4x4 :-[ axle locating rod perhaps :-\
The bushings are used when fabricating control arms and/or locating arms for serious off-roading. These 4 wheeling fanatics fab suspension pieces to lift their trucks much higher than stock and to survive the intense shocks and stresses, real or imagined, that their vehicles may encounter. I haven't spoken to the manufacturer with regard to their bushings' Shore Hardness Index but when you compare the weight of a Ford F150 4X4 to that of an Omega/Catera I think our cars couldn't possibly flex these bushings to the point of failure.
After seeing the damage to razzo's wishbone I'm weary of using a solid poly bushing such as the ones you're using. I don't know how the highways are treated during the winters over there but here they spread liberal doses of rock salt to melt the ice & snow. The chances of salt corrosion damage is high, and then adding the type of stress a solid bushing places on the wishbone is just too much risk for me.
When I'm ready for new bushings I think I'll go with the Poly-Flex option, unless you guys come up with something better.
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It's like you've been reading my history Elvin. :y
As I recall, I prety much concluded, after looking at those 4x4 bushes, that the main restriction or concern is the height of the void in the omega subframe. There isn't the space to fit the metal encapsulated ball joints in the space available.
Looking at it another way, make a ball joint, in the correct dimensions. Draw it out even. By the time the ball is small enough, on a 14mm bolt, with a tilt angle needed, there is very little material left, to hold the metal ball in the poly.
We at basically looking at a ball joint, with dimensions that don't work for a ball joint. At that point, IMO, we have to accept one if two options. Find the nearest sized poly ball joint and adjust the sizes of the wishbone AND the subframe to fit. Or, stick with rubber bushes. :(
Thinking further. If a ball joint was made to the same dimensions as the oe rubber bush, the ball could easily pop out. Now, wether there are appropriate forces to make that happen is another story.
I have some pics somewhere.
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Forgot up add, the reason the oe rubber bush works at all, IMO, is because it's bonded. Otherwise it would pop out it seems to me.
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Drawing shows 20 degrees of tilt and a 2" bush body
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/a2ae603085a9f463b58c0dcacee4d529_zps459105e9.jpg)
Omega bush body height is 25.6mm or the that is the height of the wishbone void anyway.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/a97604f6fd3a6ebbc81f7d11376f6249_zpsd3545fab.jpg)
Which means, by the time the wishbone is fully tilted we get this much gap, roughly, between the wishbone and the the subframe. Its tricky measuring this gap in an actual subframe as its concealed, but you get the idea.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/9893F972-8F38-4048-8056-0F7E9E33D319_zpsihfseiyv.jpg)
So, by the time the bush body height is narrowed down to 25.6mm... Ok let's say 30mm as there is a bit of room, highlighted by the screw driver, by the time the poly surrounding the ball is added, there's not much poly in contact with the metal ball. Certainly less than the 2" 4X4 bush.
If that makes any sense at all. :(
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Considered these but discounted on bolt size and bush too big
http://www.pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Powerflex-PumaFiesta-Mk4-5-Front-Wishbone-Lower-Rear-Bush-set_196.jsp
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This type pop out going by entries on some forums
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Powerflex-Bush-Poly-Audi-S3-Mk1-Typ-8L-4WD-Front-Wishbone-Rear-Bush-/380663446274
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Too big? :(
http://youtu.be/_O3bRw-OUZI
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Close. If they don't pop out :-\ or break the wishbone.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Puma-Front-Wishbone-Anti-Roll-Bar-Bushes-Rear-Beam-Mounts-Poly-/370607560265
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Which brings us neatly back to the Sierra bushes, which are exactly the right size but lack a ball... :-\
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Can't see what car these are for.
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1103-suspension-buyers-guide/photo_02.html
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Anyone given thought to drilling small holes through the meat of the bushing, between the tube and outer-case? They would provide "squish room" similar to the voids molded into the Poly-Joints from DayStar. These holes, 3 at the very tip of the wishbone and 3 opposite those, would make the bush more pliant and relieve tension along its pivotal axis reducing stress to the wishbone. The action of the wheel rising and falling would cause the poly material to "squish" and fill the holes. We could also drill even smaller holes to the "left & right" of the tube that would allow a lesser "squish" under braking to mimic the function of the OEM bushing.
I wish I could illustrate this but I don't have photoshop with which to create an example, but if you refer to the picture below, imagine drilling 3 holes through the "top" of the bushing and 3 through the "bottom" and then 3 smaller holes to the "left and right".
How do you think the polyurethane would hold up during road use? Would it function as I pose, or tear and shred itself to bits? Maybe this is a crazy idea but that's what's fun about this forum, exchanging ideas with likeminded crazy people like yourselves. :D
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/NO2Z0406_zpsce71dda8.jpg)
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Can't see what car these are for.
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1103-suspension-buyers-guide/photo_02.html
I think the site used them as a general illustration of a joint and purposely didn't identify the vehicle.
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Bit wary do sounding too negative at every suggestion here, "but" the issue I see there is the rigidity required to keep the steering accurate is needed on the same plane as the relief needed by the bush when the wishbone tilts.
Drill holes, helps one, but detracts from the other. Arse! (If I understand the description correctly of course...? )
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Can't see what car these are for.
http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-1103-suspension-buyers-guide/photo_02.html
I think the site used them as a general illustration of a joint and purposely didn't identify the vehicle.
Yes, shame, they look tasty, and the eccentric could alleviate some wheel rubbing issues by altering the track too. :(
I can't get a sense of scale either. They could be massively too big. :-\
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Bit wary do sounding too negative at every suggestion here, "but" the issue I see there is the rigidity required to keep the steering accurate is needed on the same plane as the relief needed by the bush when the wishbone tilts.
Drill holes, helps one, but detracts from the other. Arse! (If I understand the description correctly of course...? )
I see your point. My mind was set on relieving the stress on the wishbone to prevent cracking and I didn't consider the rest of the forces involved. Damn. Genius idea while it lasted though.
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Yes that why a solid lump style poly will never work to complete satisfaction IMO. The danger is they are made hard enough to work initially, which satisfies the first criteria, but does so at the detriment to wishbone strength.
They will eventually fatigue the wishbone. There's no compromise to satisfy both. :(
If its to be upgraded, the rearward bush MUST be a ball joint design. And to be usable in a passenger car it MUST have some sort of damping quality or harshness will be the over riding sensation. The car can be as accurate as it likes but if the drivers hands are numb with tingling vibration after half an hour its no use.
I already get slight tingling from long journeys with front poly as it is, but then I have a compressed vertebrae that aggravates nerves anyway so it might be that.
It's certainly not as straightforward as fitting a rose joint, or a solid lump of poly.
I did speak to Powerflex re measuring up the omega for poly rear subframe bushes/donuts a couple of years ago. They even measured the car for dimensions etc. However the sales team decided that there where more lucrative models to build bushes for first, cars that sold in bigger numbers or models that had greater numbers on the road certainly.
So us poor omega owners had to wait as far as they where concerned. Luckily Al found the monaro ones by Pedders to be a good enough fit.
But the point is, just asking a poly bush manufacturer to make a bush for a certain model doesn't mean they will just make the part for us either. They have to see a good business decision first, which is fair enough.
There are plenty of engineers that will make the metal parts, but poly up to a certain shaw needs to be moulded. Freezing it doesn't work either. Black poly, is just about hard enough to machine, but the second it gets hot, the hardness needed to machine it to any real accuracy or detail such as poly ball joint ( not simply a poly lump ) is lost.
Therefor a mould is needed, and from that point ease of manufacture for Joe bloggs on the street, or even us lot, becomes a lot more expensive. Its doable, that's how powerflex started. But certainly not straightforward.
....IMO of course. :)
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Ps, its a shame those 3d printers aren't a bit more advanced.
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3D printers are perfectly capable of making the part. But, the materials that they use aren't going to be much use as a bush. They'd probably be up to the job of making one-off moulds to make a bush though.
My opinion is that the rear bush is a poor design; it should have been a similar bush to the front, in the same plane and axis. Just like a proper tubular wishbone would have been. Just about everything that use front and rear at 90degrees to each other suffer from shortterm wear. Just ask anyone whose had mk4/5/6 Escorts or later Fiestas, where replacing the wishbones every couple of years is a requirement. Although at £15 a side it isn't too costly.
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Would it be fair to say that mostly front wheel drives have the bushes both pointing forward?
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Volvo c70 has a similar set up with a cast wishbone.
The arm itself is quite short though.
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Like this?
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232197401
Note the king pin is central though, compared to the inline rear arm of the omega
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Would it be fair to say that mostly front wheel drives have the bushes both pointing forward?
No.
Look at a Jag, Cortina, Superminx, Granada, Manta, Triumph, Corvette etc, etc.
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Which brings us neatly back to the Sierra bushes, which are exactly the right size but lack a ball... :-\
I give up. Like I said before, I'm not ready for new ones yet but when the time comes I'll be asking you how those Sierra bushings are holding up. I was leaning towards the DayStar Poly-Flex bushes but if the Sierras slip right in without any machine work, and the handling is improved over stock, then I'm sold.
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So far bushes and arms are holding up fine :y
Obviously if it all goes Pete Tong, I will let you know...
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Next step is to fit the same 'Black' bushes.
But I have a couple of modifications to consider following Chris's comments in April and Razzos latest issues ::)
Fit the Black bushes, but sliced in half so the 'flanges' can move relative to the centre bush, reducing the rigidity slightly, but allowing some slip whilst supporting the arm vertically. So hopefully this will be the final solution, along with ensuring that the weld around the bush support is continuous and both sides so that the arm itself doesn't flex so much.
Isn't the Black Series stiffer than their Yellow? Wouldn't they be easier on the wishbone than the Black? You mention slicing the bushing in half but how exactly? They already come from PowerFlex as 2 pieces. Are the bolts 14mm and do you use the washers shown in your application? A little more detail please.
(http://www.powerflex.co.uk/resize_image.php?image=PFF19-101BLK.jpg&w=250)(http://www.powerflex.co.uk/resize_image.php?image=PFF19-101.jpg&w=250)
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Yes the yellow ones would be easier. But they don't control the wishbone position well enough. Too soft.
We then fitted black in the centre with yellow on top. Black worked out as the yellow was too soft,
Ultimately, as Al has now I believe/last I heard, it was black throughout.
Black are rock hard, like plastic or nylon. But they do hold the wishbone correctly, at the expense of flex, hence they transfer stress to the wishbone.
Here one of my attempts. Failed miserably. As the yellow is so soft it parted on the brakes and allowed the wishbones to knock on the subframe with appalling instability.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/EDE84B09-D0A2-4F9D-B000-A563C1F05185_zpsu5akxyjw.jpg)
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The yellow are too soft, as the deform under load. The blacks offer much better lateral support under braking/steering loads, whilst the flanges are pliable enough to allow the wishbone to pivot as per the originals :y
The bushes do indeed come as two halves :y Mine have been sliced horizontally so the flange and the part that sits in the wishbone are separate, hence four parts :y
The reason for this is due to the way I trialled the bushes...
MK 1. Yellow bushes fitted intact. Too soft, with control issues during braking/cornering.
MK 2. Black bushes sliced, with the core fitted to the wishbones, using yellow flanges as it was felt that the black flanges might be too hard. Better handling, but still odd characteristics under load, as the yellow flanges were deforming, allowing the arm to move vertically in the subframe, not ideal.
MK 3. Yellow flanges swapped out with the black ones. Effectively four layers, this allows an amount of slippage as the arm pivots under load, so the arm is supported adequately but is not locked in place.
Car is set up with zero toe, as per Wheels in Motions' advice, jury is out as to whether it needs some toe or not, but steering is as pin sharp as a steering box allows, (so it is a little vague in a straight line when the steering box is slack). However chuck it into a corner, and the steering weights up nicely with a reasonable amount of feel :y
With regards the Power flex kit, you can file the dished washers into a box in the shed/recycling bin. The stainless bushing is needed but requires 1mm to be ground off each end as it's a touch too long. I have also fitted a sleeve to mine as the ID of the steel bushings is 16mm (against 14mm for the bolt). This technically isn't essential as the clamping force of the vertical bolt should hold the bushing securely in place. For this sleeve I used a 15mm copper pipe cut 1mm shorter than the bushing and sliced along its length :y
Hopefully that answers most questions, but if you think of any more, just shout :y
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Here's one of Al's
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/917E5A51-B49B-45A6-BB1D-6A28018882C6_zpskch25kix.jpg)
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I wonder Chris, if it's worth revisiting your idea, but with black bushes and drilling them out slightly from the outside face to the depth of the flange once you have scalloped them. Don't slice them though, as the ball should eliminated the need for layering :y
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I wonder Chris, if it's worth revisiting your idea, but with black bushes and drilling them out slightly from the outside face to the depth of the flange once you have scalloped them. Don't slice them though, as the ball should eliminated the need for layering :y
Not with you from drilling, Al, sorry. Run that by me again?... :)
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Since Taxi Alsuggested revisiting Chrisgixer's Ball Joint design I sent an email to DayStar regarding their 2.0 Inch Poly Flex Joint - Part Number: KU70001BK. Both designs are similar so I asked:
What is the Shore Hardness of the poly races?
What is the Outer Shell height?
What is the length of the Ball Insert?
Can the shell be machined down to a 49mm OD?
Can the Ball Insert be drilled to accept the 9/16 inch Bolt & Tube?
What is the maximum angle of articulation?
Maybe their joint will work if we get the right answers. I won't receive anything until maybe tomorrow so stay tuned.
The link below is to a diagram showing the different joints and their assembly. Unfortunately it doesn't include dimensions.
http://www.daystarsuspensionparts.com/Installation_Instructions/Daystar/P10855-00.pdf
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I wonder Chris, if it's worth revisiting your idea, but with black bushes and drilling them out slightly from the outside face to the depth of the flange once you have scalloped them. Don't slice them though, as the ball should eliminated the need for layering :y
Not with you from drilling, Al, sorry. Run that by me again?... :)
Spoke to Al on the phone, he's talking about potentially making this in black poly, but by shaping the top and bottom of the bush, so as to allow it to rock with the the wishbone tilting action, but still stay firmly in contact with the roof and floor of the subframe bracket to prevent it working out.
That shaping could consist of a curved surface, like a cam, but with a constant radius. Issue I see there is, that of the bush is rubbing on the subframe it could be turned in the wishbone buy the rocking action. In effect, the poly will no longer be symmetrical. Therefor it would need to be fixed to hold it in the correct orientation, either pinned (tricky as we don't want to be drilling through the wishbone) or bonded (tricky again as poly is by definition pretty friction free)
Or, that shaping could consist of a cone shape to the top and bottom of the bush. But then there's less material to stop the bush halves working out, and increased likely hood of wear.
Thinking further, there would need to be a counter sunk shape to the top and bottom of the hole to allow it to tilt on the bulb shapes spacer without unseating the black poly, and keep the stress away from the wishbone.
Here is a pic of how the poly was shaped to match the bulb in the centre spacer, which was taken from the centre of an oe rubber bush. These vary greatly is size and shape among the aftermarket wishbones, and to a lesser degree the ie ones as well.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/4F31E7B9-AD83-46B7-95A5-61E3733F236E_zps8xmvkivh.jpg)
Obviously this is by no means accurate, but for the purposes of experimentation, it worked. Great care is needed not to go too far when holding the poly on the drill by hand, that the part doesn't melt too far and become too big, or that there's no injuries or burns. Thick gloves needed.
Later a lathe would be used if successful to gauge turn spead and depth. ..." IF "
Its a bit if a bodge frankly, but there we are.
Hope helps is anyone wishes to pursue it. But for the cost and effort, I chose to stick with oe rubber bushes. Tbh.
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?
http://www.mcgillmotorsport.com/m14-spherical-plain-bearing-gek14t-teflon-lined-889/
Would need a collar to fit. A poly collar maybe?
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Also talks about Teflon. Can't see much shock protection though. :-\
Oe bush has roughly 4mm depth of rubber all round.
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Also talks about Teflon. Can't see much shock protection though. :-\
Oe bush has roughly 4mm depth of rubber all round.
There will be a thin teflon coating between inner and outer parts to prevent wear. There's no shock cushioning whatsoever.
They would probably need dust covers for protection too, but if you could sleeve it such that it's an interference fit into the wishbone and space the inner section to locate it centrally...
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Yes it would need to press in with similar tonnage as the oe bush. Which was about 1 ton of pressure last time I looked, although that probably varies greatly. It took about a ton of pressure to press razzo's polys put of TB's wishbones, btw. With the centre spacer still fitted.
Defo needs a gator or dust protection. They gather an awful amount of dust sand and gravel obviously.
.....Not to mention water . Which could be an issue.
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And spacers to and bottom to make up the 46mm height. Of course.
I'm still a bit concerned about the amount if contact with the ball. Re popping out.
Its better though. Or is it just me?
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Dust cover in this caught my eye. Second pic down.
http://www.smartuki.com/prices.php
Looks moulded on though...?
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Could fit embed it in a black polybush, as that would provide plenty of support, and some damping whilst locating it centrally :-\
Dimensions are still on the small side for mounting as is :-\
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?
http://www.mcgillmotorsport.com/m14-spherical-plain-bearing-gek14t-teflon-lined-889/
Would need a collar to fit. A poly collar maybe?
Ordered some of these, should be here Monday.
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Good stuff :y
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These arrived today. Not sure tbh. I can't help think a couple of things.
1 the load bearing surface that would apply to the sphere top and bottom flat surface is barely 1mm, which might give way to crushing at the specified torque. Either on the sphere or the spacers needed to make up 49mm height
2 there seems to be a very small contact area where the edge is peaned(?) over to hold the sphere in. They loosen off very quickly even moveing the sphere by hand.
3 add in some side load and they could bind and twist out of a poly surround or move perhaps or possibly judder causing noise through the car.
4 just found this link
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/drag-and-street/spherical-bearings/emb-nylon-race-series.html
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Ah, some real progress then, not sure what they mean by low load though :-\
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...and, I suppose, by the time it's pressed in it will compress the nylon. So then we're looking at a metal case and pressing that instead.
Ever get the feeling your chasing your arse? Oh wait, where's Dr Esta. ;D
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I know it's been almost a year since this topic has been raised but I have a new development. At least it's new to me.
It's been brought to my attention that a member on the Catera Forum by the name of Kodan, I believe he's Dutch, has found a source of polyurethane rear/vertical bushes for the front control arms. They are similar in appearance to the OEM part but without the spherical center insert. To achieve the necessary flex they have a depression that surrounds the center crush tube. I've asked for his supplier but all he says is, "it's a guy in Poland". Have you any clue to who he may be refering to? His bushings look professionally made, and well designed. The last picture is of the OEM bushing after 2 years. Obviously the weather there is harsh and wet, a perfect testing ground. He says there are currently 3 Omegas, saloons and limos, using the bushes. The Polish gentleman makes other poly bushings for our cars. Time will tell how long they last but I'm hopeful. Read the thread at:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/163456-control-arm-bushings-post15658594.html#post15658594
Left: OEM/GM Bushing........Right: Polyurethane Bushing
(http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/386026d1462182257-control-arm-bushings-polish-rear-vert.png)
Polyurethane Bushings
(http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-catera-cimarron-forum/386034d1462182961-control-arm-bushings-polish-rear-vert-2.jpg)
Bushings installed
(http://a65.tinypic.com/s5lbb9.jpg)
Bushing at work
(http://a63.tinypic.com/2j518nl.jpg)
OEM Bushing after 2 years. (the inspiration for the Poly Bush.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/xgb5ht.jpg)
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Those look to be unsupported when in place, allowing vertical movement :-\
No further experimenting here since wishbone failure...