Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Rog on 05 December 2013, 08:43:22

Title: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Rog on 05 December 2013, 08:43:22
So, George want to dump the familar tax disc in favour of an electronic system.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25223631

We all know that with ANPR and electronic records it's very possible for plod to see if a car is taxed electronically along with insurance status etc.

My question is, is this just technology for the sake of it ? Small post offices will suffer further, will there be an incentive for an increase in plate theft and/or cloning ? Is plod really going to check every car he sees online instead of just eyeballing the windscreen ?

I can certainly see some advantages, but overall I'm just not sure  ???


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Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 December 2013, 09:32:27
With ANPR the piece of paper is pretty much irrelevant and a waste of money to produce, so makes sense to ditch it.

Paying 5% extra to pay monthly for a service that's used throughout the year is a bit of a cheek, IMHO. Won't be taking that up.
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 05 December 2013, 09:58:25
It won't make any difference whether we have a disc or not as there are no Bobbies walking the streets anyway! and if you get pulled over I expect that by the time Mr Plod gets out of his car, he will already know your tax, MOT and insurance status.  :-\

Paying by direct debit isn't a bad idea, although I'd have thought it will create extra administration sorting out all those returned DD's!  :-\
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Shackeng on 05 December 2013, 10:03:08
With ANPR the piece of paper is pretty much irrelevant and a waste of money to produce, so makes sense to ditch it.

Paying 5% extra to pay monthly for a service that's used throughout the year is a bit of a cheek, IMHO. Won't be taking that up.

...which according to the Times today: "The Treasury believes that motorists who choose to do this will collectively save £20 million a year"

Huh? I don't think so. But perhaps for the taxpayers in general. 8)
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: 05omegav6 on 05 December 2013, 10:12:13
The returned DDs just mean more money for the wbankers...

It would be nice to think that the money saved from posting all the tax discs bought online would buy some common sense at the Department of Very Lacklustre Apathy... at they very least they should employ another call centre :-\ I suspect however, it will be more a case of 'Oooh, look how much money and effort we've saved'...

Also technically my car doesn't require an MoT, the Council certify the fact that it is tested to above MoT standards every six months, so if I have an argument at the Post Office in the same town as the Council, what hope would I have on line :-\

(As it happens, I have it Motd as well, for that very reason :y)
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: cleggy on 05 December 2013, 10:37:59
It will certainly seem strange without a disc on the windscreen after all these years, anyone want to buy a holder ::) ;D ;D
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: omega3000 on 05 December 2013, 10:38:40
Should do away with the road tax altogether an stick it on fuel  :( Runs off and hides  ;D
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 05 December 2013, 10:56:50
I wonder if we will still be able to pay the tax at the Post Office or will it have to be done online.  :-\

I always try to pay at the PO to give them a bit of support. Use it or lose it, you know?  ;)
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: biggriffin on 05 December 2013, 10:58:21
Should do away with the road tax altogether an stick it on fuel  :( Runs off and hides  ;D

if they put road tax on fuel duty,watch the prices in the shops go up.
99.9 percent of everything is delivered by road.
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: aaronjb on 05 December 2013, 11:02:20
As long as the ANPR works better than the cameras at the local shopping centre car park which, for some reason, never seem to recognise my plate on the way in..

..still, free parking ;D Maybe I don't want them to be any better after all!
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: biggriffin on 05 December 2013, 11:03:26
I wonder if we will still be able to pay the tax at the Post Office or will it have to be done online.  :-\

I always try to pay at the PO to give them a bit of support. Use it or lose it, you know?  ;)

i do like to use my lokal post office, but when its car tax time i steer well clear,
there's the old duffers who take all day to find the mot certificate they don't need as its all on the system,or the mummy with her kids trying to convince the post worker that the zafira is insured because here husband said it was.,
online for me takes 5 mins.
still use post office for parcels n letters. :y
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: 05omegav6 on 05 December 2013, 11:12:49
Should do away with the road tax altogether an stick it on fuel  :( Runs off and hides  ;D
Let's say you buy a tank of fuel a week...so 90x52=4680 at an average of 1.33. So that's £3600. The extra tax should only be 1-2p, but then that means you might pay £36-72 for your road tax. Someone driving a small diesel might manage to only pay half that...

The government would very quickly realise that this amount earns them very little revenue. So they make it 10p on the litre price. Suddenly, you're paying £360 pounds a year, an extra £100

Using the same numbers for myself, the first example I would pay £65-130. In the second, more likely scenario, that's £650 a year...

Applying the same numbers to trucks and buses, that would cost the transport industry about £6000 per vehicle each year, about 7 times what it costs to tax an artic at the moment. Great you might think, that'll mean all those foreign trucks will have to pay as well...

Wrong, they come here carrying 1000+ litres of fuel already, no reason for that to change, so we get shafted all round :-\

I'll let you mull that over... then you can pop the idea somewhere warm and dark :y
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: biggriffin on 05 December 2013, 11:17:28
I can remember when French lorries use to come to England to fill up,and uk trucks were charged tax upon entering France and the fatherland depending on how much fuel was in the tank, and woo betide any one trying to sneak tro with a.belly tank and not saying owt.
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: 05omegav6 on 05 December 2013, 11:28:45
I can see the current lot saying a quarter tank limit, and just checking the gauge tbh ::)

If we started insisting trucks came in with less than 1/4 tank, then the French would kick off, Calais would become a ghost town, as all the ships would go to Oostende and Zeebrugge instead... As would all the immigrants, and I have no idea what the Belgians would say about that!
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 05 December 2013, 12:00:07
I think it was Hungary, before they opened the borders in 2004, where you wern't allowed to go in with more than 100 litres.  They physically dipped the tank and would charge duty on any excess fuel you were carrying.  ;)
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 05 December 2013, 12:46:01
As long as the ANPR works better than the cameras at the local shopping centre car park which, for some reason, never seem to recognise my plate on the way in..

..still, free parking ;D Maybe I don't want them to be any better after all!


Question?

Why is CCTV so piss poor.

Every time I watch Crimewatch I'm bombarded with a shit load of 'grainy images' that could be just about anyone.

In 2013, with all the technology we have at our disposal, why are these images not pin sharp?

Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: omega3000 on 05 December 2013, 12:54:30
Yeah simples . They can shaft us twice now , one for filling up and two for paying road tax , thats why they wont scrap the road tax  :( And they should change the name from road tax as none of it gets spent on the roads around here  :( My plates dont register either ... free parking everywhere  ;D ;D
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: LC0112G on 05 December 2013, 14:17:31
Many European countries (Swiss, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia at least) have a vignette system. You cannot use a Motorway or major road without buying a vignette, Most countries allow you to buy them for a few days, weeks or a year. Both locals and foreigners have to buy them, and there is a fine if you use a motorway or dual carrageway without one.

But Auntie Flow who only drives to the shops and church once a week using local roads doesnt need one, so it doesn't cost her any more. Any locals that use the roads more buys a yearly one.

My proposal would be to half the current Road tax price, and introduce a vignette for all motorways and non urban A trunk roads, which would cost the same as the (new half price) tax disk. Then legislate so that all cars (foreign and local) had to have a vignette to use the affected roads. That way you can collect 'road tax' from foreign lorries and cars, unless they really want to try and drive from Dover to Scotland and back on urban and B roads.
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Rods2 on 05 December 2013, 15:45:05
It is the next logical step in road charging which will arrive in the not too distant future as the number on Nissen and other milk floats increases. They will recoup the lost revenue somehow and 50p a mile in the rush hour will soon be filling up the coffers at the treasury so they are almost as full as Lord Opti's dovecote.  :(
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2013, 15:58:39
The next logical step which some OOFers will see in their lifetime is on board auto tariffing of all driving.(debit your bank account in real time).

Pay more to drive fast, drive in peak time or to accelerate and brake hard. But everyone with a suitably equipped car would pay. Those older cars would be taxed off the road as fast, peak time hard drivers sought them instead of a new Prius.
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: MR MISTER on 05 December 2013, 16:10:20
My God! Who needs a crystal ball? ;D
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: LC0112G on 05 December 2013, 16:20:13
I don't think pay as you drive can work, unless you're prepared to put toll booths on the road network. Much easier to add it to the price of the fuel. The problem is that will hit rural drivers harder than city drivers because it's further to the shops/church/hospital etc and there are fewer local amenities. So the tories won't do it.

And pay as you drive will not provide a way of extracting cash from foreign lorries. It would probably be against EU law for the UK to mandate that foreign vehicles are modified to carry a pay as you go transponder. You'd also have to force all UK drivers of cars produced before the start date to retro fit the transponder - and retrospective legislation is generally frowned upon. For instance what would happen if they had tried to pass a law stating that all cars had to have cat's fitted - even a 1900 model T F*od?
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 05 December 2013, 16:31:20
Yeah simples . They can shaft us twice now , one for filling up and two for paying road tax , thats why they wont scrap the road tax  :( And they should change the name from road tax as none of it gets spent on the roads around here  :( My plates dont register either ... free parking everywhere  ;D ;D

They did....... In 1937!  :D It's officially called Vehicle Excise Duty (V.E.D.).  ;)

C'mon keep up at the back!!  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 05 December 2013, 16:54:53
.... It would probably be against EU law for the UK to mandate that foreign vehicles are modified to carry a pay as you go transponder. You'd also have to force all UK drivers of cars produced before the start date to retro fit the transponder - and retrospective legislation is generally frowned upon. For instance what would happen if they had tried to pass a law stating that all cars had to have cat's fitted - even a 1900 model T F*od?

Europe already have said transponder for HGVs, etc. I was involved in a project developing them probably 6 or 7 years ago and they were well established then. No infrastructure or vehicle mods required. They're a box with a GPS and a GPRS module built in. Power it up and it spies on you, bill arrives in the post. Job done.
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 05 December 2013, 17:08:30
The vignette idea is a good one.  It's simple, low tech, easy to understand, and could be implemented quickly and easily.  It's a system that works well in other countries and it ensures that foreign drivers pay as well.  :y

I think that in some countries the sticker contains a chip that can be read by sensors by or over the road.  :-\
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: 05omegav6 on 05 December 2013, 17:13:38
.... It would probably be against EU law for the UK to mandate that foreign vehicles are modified to carry a pay as you go transponder. You'd also have to force all UK drivers of cars produced before the start date to retro fit the transponder - and retrospective legislation is generally frowned upon. For instance what would happen if they had tried to pass a law stating that all cars had to have cat's fitted - even a 1900 model T F*od?

Europe already have said transponder for HGVs, etc. I was involved in a project developing them probably 6 or 7 years ago and they were well established then. No infrastructure or vehicle mods required. They're a box with a GPS and a GPRS module built in. Power it up and it spies on you, bill arrives in the post. Job done.

Fleet telematics are old news, the trucks are fitted from new, and if you tick the option box, the manufacturer will tell you what the boxes are reporting :y
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Taxi_Driver on 05 December 2013, 17:15:22
The returned DDs just mean more money for the wbankers...

It would be nice to think that the money saved from posting all the tax discs bought online would buy some common sense at the Department of Very Lacklustre Apathy... at they very least they should employ another call centre :-\ I suspect however, it will be more a case of 'Oooh, look how much money and effort we've saved'...

Also technically my car doesn't require an MoT, the Council certify the fact that it is tested to above MoT standards every six months, so if I have an argument at the Post Office in the same town as the Council, what hope would I have on line :-\

(As it happens, I have it Motd as well, for that very reason :y)

Interesting.....I just have to take mine to a council approved MOT station, but have to pay the council for the test (full whack  >:( , they pay the garage, I believe, £25). Its once a year for cars under 6 years, twice a year for cars over 6 years. But I get a MOT cert, so no problems with VED  :y Vehicles over 6 years have to be inspected by the council every 6 months as well. They will take a vehicle off the road if it has large dents/ripped,damaged interior/etc
The council wanted to take my Passat off the the road for kerbed alloy wheels (all four). I had to point out, they wernt kerbed, but the lacquer was coming off and the alloy was slightly corroding and they only way to fix them was take them to an alloy wheel refurb place, which would cost hundreds to sort......so they let me off  ;D
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: LC0112G on 05 December 2013, 17:20:02
Europe already have said transponder for HGVs, etc. I was involved in a project developing them probably 6 or 7 years ago and they were well established then.

Are you saying the technology exists, or that it's already ftted to all UK and foreign trucks?

No infrastructure or vehicle mods required. They're a box with a GPS and a GPRS module built in. Power it up and it spies on you, bill arrives in the post. Job done.

Ok, but what about cars? You'd have to pass a law requiring everyone (including foreigners in foreign vehicles, and UK historics) to pay for and fit the box (plus presumably a UK SIM card or similar). If the billing address is not in the UK, avoidance would be high. and enforcement virtually impossible. Much easier & cheaper to have a checkpoint/sales bureau selling vignettes immediatly after Passport control (like Swizerland, Hungary and Slovenia do), and for it to be available as part of the "Tax Disk" for UK vehicles.

Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: MR MISTER on 05 December 2013, 17:52:00
I think....we should all just keep paying vehicle excise duty  ;D

No need for this thread at all then  ;D
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: r1 on 05 December 2013, 18:18:04
I think....we should all just keep paying vehicle excise duty  ;D

No need for this thread at all then  ;D


please call me a doctor
I must be ill
iam in favour of this remark by stemo
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: 05omegav6 on 05 December 2013, 18:30:08
Europe already have said transponder for HGVs, etc. I was involved in a project developing them probably 6 or 7 years ago and they were well established then.

Are you saying the technology exists, or that it's already ftted to all UK and foreign trucks?

No infrastructure or vehicle mods required. They're a box with a GPS and a GPRS module built in. Power it up and it spies on you, bill arrives in the post. Job done.

Ok, but what about cars? You'd have to pass a law requiring everyone (including foreigners in foreign vehicles, and UK historics) to pay for and fit the box (plus presumably a UK SIM card or similar). If the billing address is not in the UK, avoidance would be high. and enforcement virtually impossible. Much easier & cheaper to have a checkpoint/sales bureau selling vignettes immediatly after Passport control (like Swizerland, Hungary and Slovenia do), and for it to be available as part of the "Tax Disk" for UK vehicles.
Trucks pretty much built in as standard... cars store some information on a rolling basis in the ECUs, but the technology is easily applied.

 http://www.volvotrucks.com/TRUCKS/UK-MARKET/EN-GB/SERVICES/TRANSPORT%20INFORMATION%20SYSTEM%20DYNAFLEET/Pages/dynafleet_online_main.aspx  (http://www.volvotrucks.com/TRUCKS/UK-MARKET/EN-GB/SERVICES/TRANSPORT%20INFORMATION%20SYSTEM%20DYNAFLEET/Pages/dynafleet_online_main.aspx)

All manufacturers have similar systems...
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Rods2 on 05 December 2013, 21:05:11
My God! Who needs a crystal ball? ;D

Or two.  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: No More Tax Discs ?
Post by: Gaffers on 05 December 2013, 21:10:48
Should do away with the road tax altogether an stick it on fuel  :( Runs off and hides  ;D

Agreed!

*jumps in to milk float and drives off with an angry wwhhiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..........*