Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: luke@luke-turnbull.com on 08 February 2014, 20:30:12
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I'm really wanting to keep my trusty Omega estate going, but am really struggling with some alarming handling.
I can never work out if it's something the garage has done, or something else that has broken independently of their work.
The last work we had done on the car was for the tracking to be corrected from about 1 degree toe-in, which was wearing the tyres alarmingly. It felt quite different - the most noticeable thing was that sometimes we have to manually remove the lock when straightening out from maneuvering - it wouldn't automatically castor as normal.
However, about the same time we noticed that the car would seem to lurch alarmingly when:
1. Moderate cornering on a roundabout.
2. Easing the brakes e.g. at the top of a slip road.
3. Driving across bumps in the road - e.g. poorly repaired trenches.
It felt like the front of the car was suddenly jumping a few inches sideways - and I assumed that this was the "tramlining" that I've heard about.
I did some work today to change the tracking from toe-out to parallel/a little toe in. Adjusted it by eye, but am happy that my work is accurate enough.
I've visually inspected all the bushes and steering joints on the front, and the bushes and tracking bars on the rear - there's nothing obviously hanging off.
Went again on a test drive and it's still not right. When I'm cornering on a roundabout, the car suddenly lurches so as to turn a little sharper than I'm steering it.
Any help or suggestions greatfully received. I'm trying to keep this car going on a budget - it's up to 175,000 miles and I can't justify any great expense. It's just so frustrating being unable to diagnose the fault.
Many thanks,
Luke Turnbull
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You cannot set tracking accurately "by eye". Sounds like your car needs a full geo set up, it also sounds like this might be a bit expensive on your budget. Google "Wheels in Motion". You can do it yourself with some simple equipment, but it takes a considerable time and considerable experience to do it this way. It used to take me the best part of a day to set up an Omega properly on a DIY basis.
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As said get it to a wim's specialist,they will tell you if there is any other problems,it is worth having it done,and will change the handling of the omega,and it will be set up to there specs which are better than the vx original settings :y
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How many miles/years since the front wishbone bushes were last replaced?
Experience on OOF seems to be that they last about 18 months or 30,000 miles.
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i know from what you have said about the steering but the omega is full of nylon bushes you cant see, if worn this could be a poss cause, the idler arm on nearside chassis leg went on mine causing it to jump about, or poss the mounting bushes on the top of the front struts, poss the camber angle of the front wheels may be wrong,Jack the car up so you can get under it, but keep the wheels in contact with the ground, or use ramps get someone to rock the steering, and just check for any undue movement, on the track rod ends, idler arms,anti role bar drop links, wishbone bushes etc etc, mainly just to rule them out of the problems, hope you get it sorted :y
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Hi everyone sorry to butt in but were is this wims place plz as my one needs all 4 wheel aliment. Thanks all darren :y
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Hi everyone sorry to butt in but were is this wims place plz as my one needs all 4 wheel aliment. Thanks all darren :y
Chesham
Wheels in Motion (http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/blackboots-location.php)
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Hi everyone sorry to butt in but were is this wims place plz as my one needs all 4 wheel aliment. Thanks all darren :y
Chesham
Wheels in Motion (http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/blackboots-location.php)
brill cheers mate just googled it and its only 43 mins away will get it booked in thanks again andy h :y
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There are no nylon bushes on the omega. Rubber, but not Nylon.
Have a look here.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90492.0
Unfortunately, purely visual exam will NOT show any faults. You need to get in there and lever stuff about, wiggle and pull to check for play. The car is old and needs some tlc to get the best or better from it.
Your problems go way beyond fiddling with toe settings, and it's Not possible to get it correct by eye, along with camber and castor at the front, and camber/toe at the rear.
The bushes will be worn or torn, which must be addressed first or the set up will be a waste of time. Yes, visit wheels in motion, but first...
1 find the faults (there WILL be several)
2 rectify
3 set the car up for full geometric set up.
4 only once happy, should new tyres be fitted. Or they will wear oddly and never handle well again.
Also, at that sort of mileage, consider adjusting the steering box to take out any slack.
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I agree with everything Chris has posted EXCEPT the last point about the steering box.
If all the slack is removed it destroys the roller in the sector arm. To set the preload correctly the steering box needs to be out of the car and a gauge needs to be used to measure the torque required to turn the input shaft from end to end (with nothing else to cause drag apart from worm and roller).
I don't want to pick a fight with Chris but he is the only person I know who has had to change the steering box on an Omega and he is the only person I know who has played with the preload adjustment.
Back to his main points... there will be several parts that need replacing before you can get best value from a trip to WIM. Unfortunately you need someone who knows Omegas to take a critical look to identify which bits need changing. :( It might be worth asking WIM if they can inspect it first and advise (or someone on OOF may be near to you and able to have look :-\)
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Its quite an easy procedure fitted to the car. Just be sure to use small adjustments at a time.....a noticeable improvement can be had.
...I have the old s box in the garage so will look into the described procedure, but its the least important area regarding the op's symptoms. Tbh. Just a finishing touch. ;)
Maybe start a topic Andy? Its an interesting area, if you fancy...? :)
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Some discussion here from the old site, if it helps?
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268642813
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Ah, I wonder, is the discrepancy here based on description? That the omega has a worm and reciprocating ball design steering box, rather than a worm and sector arm?
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You still have a sector arm in a recirculating ball box.
(http://www.carbibles.com/thumbnails/worm_and_nut.jpg)
Clearly the potential for such an assembly to self-destruct if it's adjusted without leaving adequate running clearance is there, and there's no way to measure it, so adjust only as a last resort if there's excessive play with the box in exactly the straight ahead position IMHO.
There is shed loads of play away from the straight ahead position, by design, and it is also much looser with the engine stopped.
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Marks DTM Calib tweaked the steering box on mine several years ago to overcome a grumble I had with a disconnected feeling I had between the car and the tarmac.
Maybe I should take the other too him, as that has a similar feel, just nowhere near to the same level.
I vaguely recall Entwood having to tweak his, as a last resort, in order to get through his MOT. In fact, his MOT tester explained to me how bad it was ;D
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Marks DTM Calib tweaked the steering box on mine several years ago to overcome a grumble I had with a disconnected feeling I had between the car and the tarmac.
Maybe I should take the other too him, as that has a similar feel, just nowhere near to the same level.
I vaguely recall Entwood having to tweak his, as a last resort, in order to get through his MOT. In fact, his MOT tester explained to me how bad it was ;D
Yup .. exactly true .. it was adjusted in extremely small increments to remove the excess play, BUT, to leave a tiny amount of play so as to avoid overtightening.
The adjustment was done by marking a reference point on the steering wheel with masking tape, then moving the steering wheel very gently (with the engine running) until the road wheels JUST moved, make a new mark with masking tape, repeat in the other direction. The distance between the two outside bits of tape was the total play. The MOT limit for non-rack & pinion is 75mm .. mine was over 90mm !! - so the failure was well justified
Reason for Rejection
This inspection applies to all types of steering
mechanism.
If power steering is fitted, the engine must be
running for all checks requiring steering movement.
If ATL or OPTL approved, references to the
assistant’s role in this section do not apply, although
an NT may use an assistant to aid with the
inspection of components if the NT considers it
necessary.
For tricycles and quadricycles with motorcycle
derived steering/suspension systems, refer to
Section 9.2.
A. Free Play
1. With the road wheels on the ground pointing
straight ahead, lightly turn the steering wheel
left and right as far as possible without moving
the road wheel.
Check the amount of free play at the
circumference of the steering wheel.
Note: Play due to wear or maladjustment must
not be confused with apparent play due to the
construction of the mechanism, such as caused
by the deflection of flexible joints or spring
compression in external power steering
systems.
Note: The steering wheel free play limit is a
general rule for standard diameter steering
wheels, (380mm). Lower or higher limits should
be set with larger or smaller diameter steering
wheels.
1. A point on the rim of the steering wheel moves,
without the road wheels moving, for more than:
a. 75mm for non rack and pinion
b. 13mm for rack and pinion steering.
Note: Where there are several joints between
the steering wheel and the rack, movement up
to 48mm on a 380mm diameter wheel may be
accepted.
I adjusted the box, as said, in small increments until the max play was 50mm. I did find that if I went any "tighter" then the self-centreing of the steering was poor. At 50mm play it all felt good, self-centreing worked, and the tester was well happy .. :)
That was last year (Jan 13), at this years MOT (Dec) Mike commented that the steering was still "nice and tight" .. :)
HTH :)
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"If" there's a problem with adjusting the steering box, we really should discuss it, and confirm. So we're all sure.
Several people have adjusted it on here, with apparently good results. Myself included.
So if that's causing issues, we need to know. However slight, or otherwise, a chance there is of damage.
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i had the same problem with my 2.2 dti ive had it two years now and couldnt keep front tyres on it,kept wearing away on the inside.went through mot twice with no problems.had it 4 wheel lined twice still eating tyres and pulling to the hedge.Then the past 6 months as you went round a round about she would suddenly drop the arse felt like she was going to kick out or a shock or something had gone.Put it through mot again still no problems two days later went to put a couple of front tyres on and as it was being jacked up we noticed as soon as the tyre left the ground it droped in about an inch.Took it to the garage both bottom ball joints had gone as well as the bushes but you wouldnt have known until you had them of.Replaced both bottom wish bones.The car has now stopped dropping down as you corner and tyres are lasting alot longer,still pulls a bit so will need to get it lined again.Great to get it sorted as it caused me to crash going around a corner one day thankfully managed to miss the other cars.Now last week its decided to take notions when it will start,o the joys of having an omega.
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Rusty, inner shoulder wear is ALWAYS camber. Don't waste money on pointless 4 wheel alignment, always get a proper geometry check done.
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Some discussion here from the old site, if it helps?
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268642813
Interesting.
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You still have a sector arm in a recirculating ball box.
(http://www.carbibles.com/thumbnails/worm_and_nut.jpg)
Clearly the potential for such an assembly to self-destruct if it's adjusted without leaving adequate running clearance is there, and there's no way to measure it, so adjust only as a last resort if there's excessive play with the box in exactly the straight ahead position IMHO.
There is shed loads of play away from the straight ahead position, by design, and it is also much looser with the engine stopped.
The way to measure it is 'on the bench' using a special torque indicator (or a spring balance and a piece of string wrapped round the input shaft).
I have a Range Rover service manual somewhere with instructions on the correct way to do it. If I can find it I will post up the instructions.
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When I first got my VFR750 it was exhibiting a weird handling trait. It felt fine on twisty roads but was horrible in a straight line (eg on motorways). It turned out that the headstock bearings (which were ball bearings) had been overtightened and each ball had created a dent in the inner and outer races.
Away from straight ahead the steering was free to move but in a straight line it settled in the dents which messed up the self castor steering .
If a recirculating ball system is overtightened I imagine there is a risk of similar dents being created in the worm :-\
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You still have a sector arm in a recirculating ball box.
(http://www.carbibles.com/thumbnails/worm_and_nut.jpg)
Clearly the potential for such an assembly to self-destruct if it's adjusted without leaving adequate running clearance is there, and there's no way to measure it, so adjust only as a last resort if there's excessive play with the box in exactly the straight ahead position IMHO.
There is shed loads of play away from the straight ahead position, by design, and it is also much looser with the engine stopped.
The way to measure it is 'on the bench' using a special torque indicator (or a spring balance and a piece of string wrapped round the input shaft).
I have a Range Rover service manual somewhere with instructions on the correct way to do it. If I can find it I will post up the instructions.
OK, but you can't adjust it like that on the car, and I wouldn't mind betting the torque method is fine for a brand new / rebuilt box but after a bit of wear that probably gets a bit hit and miss.
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Some discussion here from the old site, if it helps?
http://oldsite.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268642813
Interesting.
Well, yes 2woodys experience is marked in his description of the importance of "proper adjustment." So to speak.
In talking to him, I don't think he's been unfortunate enough to experience the utterly appalling handling that certain tyre/set up/wear combinations that can occur on the omega, such as those from FALKEN and sports contact 5 threads I' m sure you've seen.
So if that's so, I don't know, his priority list makes sense and puts the box adjustment further up the list. If you see what I mean.
Certainly, for those that drove my car fitted with Falkens, the steering input needed to keep the car straight was way beyond the play evident in the steering box. WAY beyond.
So I then, would put the box adjustment lower down the list of priorities, as there's bigger forces at play.
But the key thing is, I don't think there's many of us here that are intimate with first hand experience of the box innards. So we have to leave an element of doubt and room for learning on how it works. Certainly I'd appreciate further info. :)
There's an element of hear say and oof legend about box adjustment, so I think its right to question it. :y however experience suggests improvements can be made with the box in the car. If its even remotely stiff, over adjusted, it's very noticeable. Much more so than the play itself. It feels like over tight head stock bearings on a bike as you say, and tends to zig zag. Most unpleasant. That would be re adjusted out in the space of 20yards driving, I can assure you.
But given the factual nature of the help sections, its fair to say some back up info would help all involved, if at all possible. Simply saying "that's wrong" well... you see the point I'm sure. :)
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Any more on this? :)
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My 2.5 Elite is doing the same thing with the steering too....
What happened was, I replaced the suspension with MV6 full suspension, took the car to get the tracking sorted as yo do after any suspension replacements, after driving it away from the tracking place there was a 'pop' on the left side and the handling just went weird... If in a straight line, it's fine, but as soon as you go over a grid or any 'slippery' surface the car seems to jump.... now I thought it was the 'new' suspension at fault as it is second hand and Im unaware of how old it is, so took it off and had a good look at it and cannot see anything wrong...
This problem will happen no matter which side the car drive over a grid etc.... so I came to the conclusion that the only common part is the steering box, I have been waiting for the weather to be kind enough for me to get underneath and see what has gone astray or even if its something that has just become loose....
I really do want to get this problem sorted as the MoT is due next month and Iv noticed that the NS tyre is wearing away at an alarming rate, and that was only replaced last week......
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I really do want to get this problem sorted as the MoT is due next month and Iv noticed that the NS tyre is wearing away at an alarming rate, and that was only replaced last week......
The suspension geometry is out, then. I wonder if the camber adjuster wasn't torqued up and it moved when you drove off?
Also, bear in mind that asking for "tracking" will result in the front toe only being adjusted. This is a waste of time. You need a full geometry setup which should include caster, camber and toe at the front and the combined camber and toe adjustment at the rear. You also need to specify that you want the front camber set to around 1o10'. Many alignment outfits have all the gear but simply don't understand how suspension works, so fiddle with it until everything is in the "green" and send you on your way. >:(
The thing is, the Omega can feel like the steering wheel is barely even connected to the wheels with something as simple as a poor tyre choice. This can lead you to believe it's something major like a steering box failure when, in reality, it just needs setting up properly and an appropriate choice of tyres. I think Chrisgixer is the only person I can remember who's had to replace a steering box on an Omega, and that box had been previously adjusted, so may have been set up too tight, or had previously worn hence the need for adjustment.
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Exactly what do you mean by second hand suspension?
Are the springs the correct length? And do they match across the car? ie are both rear springs the same length, likewise the front springs... was the car they came from accident damaged.
Save yourself time and money by replacing the lot, and get the car set up properly at Wheels in Motion :y
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Yes they are the same length on both sides...
Both front dampers are new
Rear dampers are new
Rear springs are the same length, exactly the same springs that are on any Omega except for the estate I believe...
The car they came off wasnt accident damaged, at all.... I removed the suspension myself from the MV6 they was on...
Im thinking that there obviously something has broken or is loose, maybe....
The tracking place I use aligns all 4 wheels as they should, to have them aligned and camber adjusted and castor etc... would cost a oppsing fortune, which is something I dont have... OK I know you cant put a price on safety but WIM are astronomically expensive for what they do/dont do....
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Unless the camber is adjusted you will have problems with uneven tyre wear. Repeated early tyre death results in more expense than a WIM visit. ;)
Did they give you a print out of the before and after settings when you got it aligned? If so, post them up, and they might tell us something.
If I'd had my car aligned and it started eating tyres, I'd be taking it straight back, though. Even if you only asked for tracking, they should have pointed out any other issues that would have caused excessive tyre wear - if they know what they're doing.
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Either the suspension components are new or they are second hand... what did you buy new and what came off another car?
There is only one way to make sure the geometry is spot on. Given your location, Nigel Langs in Bolton are recommended on a par with Wheels In Motion. If you think the £95 or so it will cost would be better spent on fitting a new tyre every week, then we're all wasting our time :-X
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The components are second hand, they came off a scrap car that had new dampers fitted 3 months before it was scrapped, the springs are not new but in good condition..... I didnt buy the components new, I bought them second hand, they just happen to be new that are fitted.....
I didnt get a print out of before and after as the garage I take all my cars to dont do that, they are a very good garage and not just some back street place..
£95 to get the wheels tracked and aligned is just something I cannot afford to do at the moment....
I understand what you say about getting tyres replaced is more costly than to get the car aligned but I need to repair what has broken first before I can take it to a garage to be aligned etc....
I have however had my Omega up on the ramps today and it looks as the wishbones need replaceing, as I had the steering wheel waggled as I looked at the way they moved, it seems as though 1 wishbone moves more than the other so I shall order a pair as soon as I can...
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To be clear then, the shocks are second hand...
I stand by my earlier post...
Save yourself time and money by replacing the lot, and get the car set up properly
Speaking from bitter experience... save up and do it right.
Buy and fit these... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WISHBONE-SUSPENSION-ARMS-SET-KIT-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-B-NEW-/370997142475?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3AVauxhall%7CModel%3AOmega&hash=item56612723cb using the guide in the maintenance section, and replace all the shocks and front strut top mounts.
Also check, and change if necessary the rear subframe bushes.
Then get new tyres fitted immediately before, as in five minutes, the car is set up properly by someone capable, ie recommended here.
Feel free to ignore all of the above, but I will say 'I told you so' when the piecemeal approach doesn't work :y
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Just bought the above, I await their arrival sometime next week... :o
once they are on and fitted I shall get the front suspension and the alignment set-up etc... and report back... :) :-\