Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Terbs on 14 March 2014, 14:53:32
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Hi all,
Have a major problem with the Gold 2.6 Estate.
You may remember I posted on this topic a few months back. Since then, the car has had a change of calipers, TWO sets of wishbones, now fitted with poly bushes today but still acts like Torvil and Dean when braking.......
Any ideas left. I believe its being tried on a rolling road too see if it is brakes.
When you brake, you get a small left pull, followed by what feels like the right side snatching, then a pull/swerve to the left. Let off the brake and it pulls back to the right. At speed it is very dangerous.
Tony
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Have you stripped the back brakes down ?
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No, in a nutshell !!!
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Just checked my records, and this vehicle had front and rear brakes including discs and handbrake shoes fitted a year ago. :y
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A few questions...
Who set the geometry?
Has the brake fluid been changed?
Any other suspension work?
What's the current mileage?
When the wishbones were replaced what brand was fitted?
How does the car behave when not braking?
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Right Al....lets see if I can remember details.
Geometry is done at WIM Chesham (5 miles from me)
Not sure about the brake fluid change
No other suspension work
Current mileage is 87,000
After car started swerving, wishbones were changed, Eurocarparts bits, problem not solved, they then fitted Delphi. No change, so calipers were changed. No change so I have had Powerflex poly bushes fitted today. No change, if not worse.
Car drives very well till you try to stop. Does not wander at all. Steering does seem lighter than the blue 2.5 estate .
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Might be pishing in the wind here but what condition are the shocks in ?
If one shock collapses under load .............. :-\
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Right Al....lets see if I can remember details.
Geometry is done at WIM Chesham (5 miles from me)
Not sure about the brake fluid change
No other suspension work
Current mileage is 87,000
After car started swerving, wishbones were changed, Eurocarparts bits, problem not solved, they then fitted Delphi. No change, so calipers were changed. No change so I have had Powerflex poly bushes fitted today. No change, if not worse.
Car drives very well till you try to stop. Does not wander at all. Steering does seem lighter than the blue 2.5 estate .
That's your problem... their vertical bushes are almost as bad as the front ones... mine lasted a week.
There are three solutions...
1. replace the rear bush with genuine Vauxhall, about £15-20 each.
2. replace the rear bush with poly. Tested to 20k, but other factors need considering, about £32.
3. replace entire wishbone with known good alternatives, from £50-160.
I would recommend option1. without seeing the wishbones, the welding might not be suitable for option 2. although it is the longest term solution.
Unfortunately all three options require resetting of the geometry in addition to the parts costs above :-\
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I hear what you say Al, but.....The first time the car swerved was on the M3 if you remember, putting me from the outside lane into the centre lane. Then new wishbones were fitted. But it still did the same, so they then tried Delphi, but it made no difference. Surely all these wishbones can't have bushes that don't work, from the minute they are fitted ????
Its been up on the ramp, and they can't find any looseness in any of the bushes, and that's not just one chap. Anti roll bushes have been change with poly too.
Subframes checked etc.
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Should add, the reason the poly bushes feel worse is because the rear bushes are substandard...
In answer to your last post Delphi and Firstline are piss poor. The pattern ones I buy come from Germany, as do Lemforder ones that Allgerman supply :y
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Might be worth putting the car on brake testing rollers that they use for mot's will show if there is a problem with the brakes if 1 side is pulling stronger than the other.
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Car been on brake tester this afternoon.......all clear. :y
Just been up to get it back, and it does still 'skate' on braking, but, personally, I thought it was not as bad, but could not really stress it due to traffic conditions. Will test tomorrow, and will be probably going for wishbone rear bushes to eliminate that area. Suspension is ok.
:y
Only good thing is its not costing me anything ;)
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Ask your mechanic how he's tightening the bolts. Ie how tight...?
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Just to confirm.
The initial symptoms of swerving right at the start, did they appear in their own? No work done?
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Original symptom as I reported in original thread a few months back, outside lane M3, 70mph or thereabouts, car in front braked, I hit mine and promptly swerved left into the middle lane. Luckily, I had overtaken a car and there was a gap for me.
No work had been done on the car. Went to WIM after first wishbone replacement, then again after the second wishbone replacement. :y
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What are the torques for wishbones, I have a large torque wrench here. I believe I am right in thinking that this must be done with car on the ground ?
Anything is worth a try :y
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What are the torques for wishbones, I have a large torque wrench here. I believe I am right in thinking that this must be done with car on the ground ?
Anything is worth a try :y
not just on the ground, but with the front end loaded up .. equivalent to 2 adults IIRC ...
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What are the torques for wishbones, I have a large torque wrench here. I believe I am right in thinking that this must be done with car on the ground ?
Anything is worth a try :y
Ask him what he actually did. What torque did they tighten the bolts too...?
See of he knows for a start.
If you have poly fitted it doesn't matter if wheels are loaded or not, as poly have no orientation and are not attached to the inner or outer like oe rubber ones.
But, if oe rubber bushes are fitted, the bolts must be torqued wheels loaded/car in the ground/suspension at normal ride height.
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Hmmm... Symptoms could also match air/water in the brake fluid ;)
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Hmmm... Symptoms could also match air/water in the brake fluid ;)
Even though the car pulls up square on the brake rollers :-\
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Just a stab in the dark ... but ... Have you checked your track rod ends?? They can do very strange things and can get amplified under braking and acceleration ??? I have experienced this first hand with my brothers BL Princess after we changed the pair of track rod ends a year ago, Only covered 2000 miles and n/s failed, very shortly followed by the o/s one! The car swerved around under any kind of braking and didn't behave so good when accelerating ::) Just a thought as no one else has mention it as a possibility and lets face it, these are the things that stop your wheels from turning wherever the hell they like. If these parts are failing it COULD cause this issue, If no-one has looked there yet I sure as hell would ;)
Got to be worth a look
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Its been up on lifts, with men underneath with pry bars etc, etc, etc going all over the joints and such.
Had a thought...would faulty discs cause this, say a crack in the central vent bits, or a distorted disc. But there again, I suppose that would have showed when it went in for brake testing :(
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Original symptom as I reported in original thread a few months back, outside lane M3, 70mph or thereabouts, car in front braked, I hit mine and promptly swerved left into the middle lane. Luckily, I had overtaken a car and there was a gap for me.
No work had been done on the car. Went to WIM after first wishbone replacement, then again after the second wishbone replacement. :y
If you had a cracked disc that is inherently dangerous ... I had a front disc shear off a long time ago, It was my old 1984 Audi 80 1.6 E (oooh sporty lol) and I was slowing down fast from 60mph approaching a road end. Didn't know there was a problem until I had enough pressure on the brakes to shear off the braking surface of the disc from the centre! The result was a sudden and catastrophic failure of the primary braking system, pooh coming out and nearly hitting a tree! I'm still thankful to this day that no traffic was on that junction, god knows what the carnage would have been :o
Another thought I had is this ... What if you have a BAD tyre ??? Maybe the internals of one of the tyres have failed (you did say it happened first on the motorway while heavy braking from 70mph)! you could look all day for that problem and never, ever find it ... that is until the tyre completely failed and blew out :-X
Have you tried swapping the fronts onto the rear to see if there is any improvement??? As in my mind you have checked just about everything else ... Tyres is about the only other thing I could think of it being and very easily overlooked! It wouldn't even matter if they were brand new, If they were on the car during the heavy braking incident they could still have failings and you may have a warranty claim ???
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Its been up on lifts, with men underneath with pry bars etc, etc, etc going all over the joints and such.
Had a thought...would faulty discs cause this, say a crack in the central vent bits, or a distorted disc. But there again, I suppose that would have showed when it went in for brake testing :(
No, not really. Wheel speed is much higher frequency than "swerve" speed, if you see what I mean.
What effect does the swerve have on the steering? I know you went into it but it needs a bit more detail to separate braking from steering.
For instance, as you brake, is the pull directly related to brake force. The more you brake the more it pulls. Let off the brake and the pull subsides accordingly.
Then add to that what the steering does. For instance, brake and the car bears left and you steer into it to keep straight. Or, the act of braking physically turns the steering wheel in your hands, so the car goes left while the steering turns right.( or vice versa )
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I am going out in it in a minute to test it and report back. Its quiet round here, but have some good, 'try out' roads, but I won't do anything stupid. :)
I do agree about tyres....years ago my Senator shook you to bits at 60mph, perfect till then. Went to various gearbox, propshaft, suspension experts, problem was caused by mismatched rear tyres!!!!
I do have two Omega's so could swap some bits around to see if there is any difference. :y
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I fitted e-bay wish bones to my DTI about six weeks ago with new drop links, put two CDX wheels and tyres on that i got from a member on here with good tyres (Omega is a CDX), took it to a local tyre company to have tracking done as i did not have time to get up to WIM for a full check. On the way to the tracking garage car was driving fine, tracking done and car not as good, MoT and car passed 100%, since then car pulls to the left and i get a knocking from both sides on front, fitted new steering idler the other week and still the same. I have some time Sunday/Monday to have a look and am now thinking track rod ends which i have a new set of to go on. First thing i am going to check is that the garage did the bolts up correctly on the track rod adjusters :o
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Original symptom as I reported in original thread a few months back, outside lane M3, 70mph or thereabouts, car in front braked, I hit mine and promptly swerved left into the middle lane. Luckily, I had overtaken a car and there was a gap for me.
No work had been done on the car. Went to WIM after first wishbone replacement, then again after the second wishbone replacement. :y
So since the m3 incident, has anything affected the symptoms in all that work done?
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No Chris...drove exactly the same.
However I have just been out around the village, and I don't think the swerve is anywhere as bad as it was. One that is noticeable is the snatch of the steering wheel to the right. !!!
At 20-30mph....car running straight...hands off wheel, normal braking, steering wheel snatches about a couple of inches to the right, car stays fairly straight.
10mph....press brake, steering wheel snatches right...car stays straight.
Light braking.....minor snatch if any, car straight. then hit pedal hard...snatch to right.
The what was a dangerous swerve to the left is not as bad and only seems to appear if applying brakes on a left bend, no snatch to the right as obviously pressure is on the steering wheel in the turn. Same applies to a right bend.
I think Al is possibly right about the wishbone bushes. It seems the cheapest way to go, then see what happens.
I don't suppose you are around over the weekend to have a drive of it.
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I'm about today. No problem. If you have any ramps chuck them in the boot.
Sounds like what TB had. Loose wishbone bolts. Or failed rearward bushes could do the same.
It might be that the original bushes failed, and they replaced the wishbones and didn't tighten the bolts enough. Which would replicate the same symptoms.
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Hmmm, yes, sounds familiar to TBE, which started doing this all of a sudden. It becomes remarkably predictable once used to it. Mine turned out to be the rearward bolt had slightly loosened (presumably, as it had been fine for months previously), allowing a bit of movement under heavy braking.
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This is a stab in the dark so please don't hesitate to tell me I'm talking nonsense if you think. But....
If all things have been done brakes and suspension wise could there be an ABS problem? For example a sensor gap problem causing excess braking on that caliper?
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If abs sensor gaps are out it will put up the abs lights as it cant read the signal :y
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This is a stab in the dark so please don't hesitate to tell me I'm talking nonsense if you think. But....
If all things have been done brakes and suspension wise could there be an ABS problem? For example a sensor gap problem causing excess braking on that caliper?
Abs fault sees a stationary wheel. So releases the brakes. Not applies. But the effect would be the same. Except the car doesn't stop.
Abs sensors on the omega are good as bomb proof though. It's just the ecu that's known to fail.
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This is a stab in the dark so please don't hesitate to tell me I'm talking nonsense if you think. But....
If all things have been done brakes and suspension wise could there be an ABS problem? For example a sensor gap problem causing excess braking on that caliper?
Abs fault sees a stationary wheel. So releases the brakes. Not applies. But the effect would be the same. Except the car doesn't stop.
Abs sensors on the omega are good as bomb proof though. It's just the ecu that's known to fail.
And ABS activation would give telltale signs on the pedal
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The pump is as noisy as fook as well ;D
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Having driven it, the symptoms are almost identical to TB's loose wishbone bolts.
One bolt was loose, front right. One over tight, other two probably not torqued correctly. All bolts torqued.
Bushes checked, drivers rearward wishbone bush failed. Badly. Delphi shite.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/7815FE65-46D6-4666-8351-FC35BF4AA158_zpssosea7rv.png)
Steering idler shows visible verticle movement when rolling the pas road wheel back and forth.
To me, the bush is causing the steering input on the brakes, and suggested to Terbert that replacing the Delphi bushes with Gm ones would fix the pulling on the brakes.
But, during the drive home, I realised I've never experienced a steering idler with that much play. So the idler could be causing symptoms as well...?
A question for those with experience of severe steering idler play I guess..?
I know TB has had a (more) severe idler, but I think he would of said in the past if the symptoms where similar to loose wishbone bolts.
Reason being I think Terbs wants to leave the idler until after the mot on cost grounds. I've recommended a GM idler from vx as the last Lemforder one I had didn't last. And press in Gm rearward bushes as suggested earlier.
There's is a distinct set distance in play fealt at the steering wheel that is directly proportionate to the amount if brake pedal used. Apply the brakes, the steering wheel moves, at this point turning the steering wheel gives a springy feel that has no affect on the rate of turn within a a two inch zone in the steering wheel movement. More over there is a also a distinct slight clunk at each end of the two inch range of play beyond which the steering then starts to move.
Anyway. New rearward bushes and idler, and she'll be right. :)
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Thanks for the photo and explanation. Mine was equally as wayward under braking last year. Rear w/b bushes were buggered. New w/b and she was fine again. It developed very quickly and while I knew it was coming before I braked, I didn't allow the wife to drive her.
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I have to give Chris (gixer) a massive thankyou, for coming over and giving me a superb lesson in fubared suspension etc.
Without you chaps I could not keep an Omega, let alone two.
Monday morning I shall try to get the bushes from Burnham Vauxhall in Wycombe. May bite the bullet and get a steering idler too. Cash is tight this month with massive outgoings, but it may have to sit on Visa for a month, That way everything can be done at one session. MOT is also due on 3rd April.
Great pic Chris, of the rear bush :y
I have to go to the Wirral next Sunday to a friends funeral. If the car is not repaired by then, I'll leave it at the garage for a week while we are away.
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I know TB has had a (more) severe idler, but I think he would of said in the past if the symptoms where similar to loose wishbone bolts.
A "disconntected" feel, rather than harsh pulls. Not dissimilar to tramline, but without the pull, if that makes sense?
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I know TB has had a (more) severe idler, but I think he would of said in the past if the symptoms where similar to loose wishbone bolts.
A "disconntected" feel, rather than harsh pulls. Not dissimilar to tramline, but without the pull, if that makes sense?
Yep that's pretty much how I described it to Terbert. :y
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The wishbone bush failure in that picture is shocking :o Is this why we should only fit GM ones or Lemforder ones then?? I don't want to have to deal with this when mine are done !
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They all go that way in the end. Although probably not quite this bad.
But, they certainly shouldn't look like that after such a short space of time since purchase/fitting.
But as I/we/oof/members/the admins/experienced members/those that know and even those that don't will and should always bang on about until the end of time;
This is the risk you take with pattern parts.
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They all go that way in the end. Although probably not quite this bad.
But, they certainly shouldn't look like that after such a short space of time since purchase/fitting.
But as I/we/oof/members/the admins/experienced members/those that know and even those that don't will and should always bang on about until the end of time;
This is the risk you take with **untried/tested (On Omegas)** pattern parts.
Fixed for clarity
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They all go that way in the end. Although probably not quite this bad.
But, they certainly shouldn't look like that after such a short space of time since purchase/fitting.
But as I/we/oof/members/the admins/experienced members/those that know and even those that don't will and should always bang on about until the end of time;
This is the risk you take with pattern parts.
No, no, the reviews online said they are ok. Plus I know at least 20 other people who said its ok online. So I must be right and you must be wrong! ::) ::)
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Bushes and steering idler ordered from Vauxhall....Steering idler £100.80, bushes £43.05 both inc vat.
Should be here today.
One thing I was surprised at was how Lemforder seem to be the choice for parts, but Chris said his idler did not last long. I know the Lemforder is half the price of the Vauxhall one, but what is so different in manufacture that the part fails quicker.
Who makes Vauxhalls parts, especially as the Omega finished ten years ago.
** Stop Press** Vauxhall have just phoned as I type, bits are in as quoted £143.00
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Bushes and steering idler ordered from Vauxhall....Steering idler £100.80, bushes £43.05 both inc vat.
Should be here today.
One thing I was surprised at was how Lemforder seem to be the choice for parts, but Chris said his idler did not last long. I know the Lemforder is half the price of the Vauxhall one, but what is so different in manufacture that the part fails quicker.
Who makes Vauxhalls parts, especially as the Omega finished ten years ago.
** Stop Press** Vauxhall have just phoned as I type, bits are in as quoted £143.00
I had a Lemforder steering idler not last a year. Sadly, it had sat on the shelf for a about a year before I fitted it (as I'd bought it with other stuff to save postage, knowing I'd use it eventually), so out of warranty. Replaced with another Lemforder in the hope it was a one-off.
Lemforder wishbones I've seen in the last couple of years seem to be variable in the metal parts, which I've posted on before. Not sure if its an attempt to keep them affordable?
I believe Lemforder are one of the OE's for idlers. GM will provide a spec that may or may not be the same as what ZF/Lemforder sell direct into the aftermarket trade.
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I wonder if, ultimately, there is a license issue on Gm parts.
Meaning Lemforder are not allowed to sell the exact same part they supply to Gm.
Mum Lemforder idler lasted about 6months before a small amount of play crept in. On fitting it didn't seem to do up correctly, although memory fails on exactly how. :(
It will be used for experimental purposes though. :)